Krusenstern
Banned
JP Kellams from Platinum Games is posting here on GAF. I hope he tells the team how much they're loved here.
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Do devs get demoralized reading GAF threads that shit on their games?
- Thread starter braves01
- Start date
JP Kellams from Platinum Games is posting here on GAF. I hope he tells the team how much they're loved here.
Freezie KO
Banned
On one hand, I don't consider games the same type of art as film or a novel. It's not like having genius inspiration and letting that vision loose into the world. Games are a product because the user actually interacts with them.
In that sense, I feel free to criticize games more heavily on things like controls, confusing segments, level design, etc. If something isn't enjoyable for its target genre, why are you subjecting us to it?
On the other hand, because games are as much product as art, I think a lot of devs could solve their problem if they just had more time or money. In a lot of cases, it's not that their vision was wrong. It's just that the publisher rushed the game or didn't budget what was needed.
In that sense, I feel free to criticize games more heavily on things like controls, confusing segments, level design, etc. If something isn't enjoyable for its target genre, why are you subjecting us to it?
On the other hand, because games are as much product as art, I think a lot of devs could solve their problem if they just had more time or money. In a lot of cases, it's not that their vision was wrong. It's just that the publisher rushed the game or didn't budget what was needed.
not_so_special
Banned
a lot of them are good games,just gaffers being hyperbolic as usual
btw i liked turok too XD
michaelius
Banned
If they do they need to realise that:
1. On GAF either you are greatest developer ever or crap - nothing in the middle
2. If the game is polarising there will be strong discussion here beetween gaf fractions
3. If your game is universally hated then perhaps it's time to make re-evaluation of project and check if those hated elements can't be improved
1. On GAF either you are greatest developer ever or crap - nothing in the middle
2. If the game is polarising there will be strong discussion here beetween gaf fractions
3. If your game is universally hated then perhaps it's time to make re-evaluation of project and check if those hated elements can't be improved
ProfessorLobo
Banned
I think a lot of devs avoid GAF for this reason. It's hard to see the thing you've put your heart and soul into for years ripped mercilessly. I really do hope that someone like Ken Levine doesn't read the comments I've made about Bioshock Infinite, because I really shred that game, but if I ever met the man in person I would have nothing but respect for him.
edgardavids
Member
To be universally popular on gaf your game needs to sell below 3 million copies (otherwise too popular/ dumbed down for the masses), high reviews but not too high (otherwise allegations of paying out reviewers and overhype factor) and you need to be a humble developer who proves they aren't solely interested in dosh. Seriously though, I hope no devs read this board about their game. You would go mad thinking about how to improve your game and in what way.
RedAssedApe
Banned
I remember Uncharted 2 (or was it 3?) where GAF shat on the feeling of the aiming and ND brought some people in to get feedback. And then released a patch.
Any other instances of GAF complaining leading to changes to a game?
Any other instances of GAF complaining leading to changes to a game?
Point 3 is not always true. A lot of games loved on GAF bomb hard and the other way around too.
ZombiePlatypus
Member
If you are working on a project and you start listening to forum posters, you end up with this:
I know what you're trying to say, but I'm not gonna lie. I'd buy and drive the shit outta that. I don't care how ridiculous it looks.
Yup, pretty much. I wouldn't be so upset with SE for example, if I wasn't still so invested in their beloved franchises that they've wrecked. (Although I doubt anyone from there is actually on here/cares.)
Of course they do, it would be naive to expect otherwise. When we at a meeting went through the positive feedback and press we had received for one of our game releases, our boss suggested that it might be a good idea to stay away from GAF threads about it to protect our feelings. The good thing is that even if only one out of ten opinions are positive, that's still enough to make it feel somewhat worth it. Another thing is that even when you worked on a bad game you always know why it turned out the way it did. GAF has no idea why and really shouldn't care either, but it allows you to take pride in the work you did with the limitations that you had even though the end result is not top of the line. In the end GAF criticism is good when it leads to something constructive, much of the opinions posted on here can be more useful than any review, it's just that you have to figure out how to not let it destroy you.
Rhazer Fusion
Member
I don't think any of them purposely create bad games because they want to. Creating video games, let alone good ones is very difficult in most cases. Also, opinions vary. Some people might think the games are good and some might think they are terrible. Then again, some of them might not know any better or are just desperate for cash or making their deadlines.
We've had iOS games that have gotten shitty reviews and were pretty thrashed by people on forums. The development team is only me and one other person, so games reflect a lot of our own decisions, which could be pretty bad if you get personally invested. As long as insults about the game are grounded, I'm fine with them and often respond in a respectful manner. Comments that are rather illogical or just plain dumb I leave alone. It can also be frustrating to see players complaining about a certain aspect that we can't fix because of technical issues, because they often seem to think that the developers are somehow too dumb to fix such an obvious problem.
I'm the artist on the team and I think that the art department in any development team probably takes harsh criticism to heart the most, as we're pretty invested in what we create. I've had enough feedback that I've become pretty numb to it though; I try to take any valid points from criticism and not get personally involved in the matter, I even shit on our own games plenty.
I'm the artist on the team and I think that the art department in any development team probably takes harsh criticism to heart the most, as we're pretty invested in what we create. I've had enough feedback that I've become pretty numb to it though; I try to take any valid points from criticism and not get personally involved in the matter, I even shit on our own games plenty.
jufonuk
not tag worthy
I think that GAF overesitmates it's importance at times like it has the only right to be arbiters of excellence
we are just a forum at the end of it all, we are a place to express out views and concerns, to say we are in the masses/shape gaming, I doubt it is true, more like we are the connoisseurs of gaming we like what we like and champion it to the hill, we dislike other things and will bitch and moan. Mods keep us in check and we in the main keep the forum a friendly place.
if the DEV's know they have done the absolute best they can given all the constraints and made the game they wanted to, more power to them, besides a lot of GAFFER's spend to much time on GAF rather than playing games lol.
Peace!
we are just a forum at the end of it all, we are a place to express out views and concerns, to say we are in the masses/shape gaming, I doubt it is true, more like we are the connoisseurs of gaming we like what we like and champion it to the hill, we dislike other things and will bitch and moan. Mods keep us in check and we in the main keep the forum a friendly place.
if the DEV's know they have done the absolute best they can given all the constraints and made the game they wanted to, more power to them, besides a lot of GAFFER's spend to much time on GAF rather than playing games lol.
Peace!
michaelius
Banned
Sales are rarelly a reflection of quality.
The team I work with almost exclusively gets their gaming news fix from Kotaku.
Every game creator reads GAF/reviews/major forums/tweets/tumblrs/reddits/4chans/emails/whatever of their work. If they say they don't they're lying. You're a creator creating something... Of course you want to see what people think of your creation. You created it for other people.
The death threat stuff is what weirds people out way more than the flippant remarks.
Creators are so much tougher on their own work than anyone else though. They see bugs and unpolished parts of their games fans and reviews never see.
Most just don't respond and stay hidden. I'm just one of the stupider ones that posts.
The death threat stuff is what weirds people out way more than the flippant remarks.
Creators are so much tougher on their own work than anyone else though. They see bugs and unpolished parts of their games fans and reviews never see.
Most just don't respond and stay hidden. I'm just one of the stupider ones that posts.
michaelius
Banned
I guess we have a warped perception of this since we mostly observe cases like Bioware defending DA2 or Too Human meltdown
Freezie KO
Banned
If I ever created something that got reviewed or commented on, I'd be refreshing Google 24/7 just searching for new comments about it.
Lock's Quest 2 pls
Every game creator reads GAF/reviews/major forums/tweets/tumblrs/reddits/4chans/emails/whatever of their work. If they say they don't they're lying. You're a creator creating something... Of course you want to see what people think of your creation. You created it for other people.
The death threat stuff is what weirds people out way more than the flippant remarks.
Creators are so much tougher on their own work than anyone else though. They see bugs and unpolished parts of their games fans and reviews never see.
Most just don't respond and stay hidden. I'm just one of the stupider ones that posts.
Which game are you responsible for may I ask? Is it Halo?
<--- Guilty.
Creators are so much tougher on their own work than anyone else though. They see bugs and unpolished parts of their games fans and reviews never see.
Most just don't respond and stay hidden. I'm just one of the stupider ones that posts.
Yeah its pretty much this from everyone where I work.
Half the time too, you understand the players frustrations and you already know about the problems/hate, but you have a tonne of other stuff to deal with, its too late to change, beaurocracy, a whole tonne of reasons why you can't change stuff. Its kind of frustrating because a lot of developers know they can do better, or atleast really really want to.
Also its a personality thing, but I find it easy to ignore the people just spouting crap. There's always a subset of people that are gonna rage about pointless stuff.
I love fan outcry a lot of the time though, it makes companies and developers pay attention. It's easy to get stuck in a bubble.
I must say though, people calling out with death threats and saying people should be fired. Is just wtf.
GrotesqueBeauty
Banned
I would also hope most devs have an intuitive sense of what's a reasoned critique and what's just fanboy hubris, although my sense is that some hide behind the latter as an excuse when bad design choices get called out. I try to only talk shit about stuff in games that's lazy or patently obnoxious, so I hope they get demoralized reading that sort of opinion, or better yet find motivation to improve upon flaws in subsequent games.
GrotesqueBeauty
Banned
This is the worst thing I've ever read, and I've read Docpan threads.
Being aware that game developers actually read GAF kind of trained me to be much more constructive with my criticism and try to avoid hyperbole. I used to talk shit about developers all the time and resort to pointless and meaningless name calling when I'm talking about something I didn't like in a game as much as I can.
The last few years made me realize just how friggin' hard game development is and if you're someone in the lower to mid chain of a development house like say an artist or a programmer constantly hearing shit about an aspect of the game you wanted to improve or was beyond your capabilities to do anything about because of time constraints, I imagine that's not a pleasant experience to go through at all. Heck, I'd be demoralized as hell if I was a developer in the face of such constant criticism.
The last few years made me realize just how friggin' hard game development is and if you're someone in the lower to mid chain of a development house like say an artist or a programmer constantly hearing shit about an aspect of the game you wanted to improve or was beyond your capabilities to do anything about because of time constraints, I imagine that's not a pleasant experience to go through at all. Heck, I'd be demoralized as hell if I was a developer in the face of such constant criticism.
If the criticism is salient (i.e. I was actually responsible for that decision, rather than it been an issue that was out of my hands), then I'd take those kinds of comments as a strong sign of displeasure... which indeed is exactly what it is.
Having said that... I think the biggest mind fucks as a developer would be having your previous words come back to bite you in the ass in a big way.
Case in point, Mechwarrior Online - sought crowd funding while making a bunch of promises to hardcore mechwarrior fans. Essentially promising an immersive simulation of the BT universe - only to evolve into an online shooter with mechs and simulator elements.
If they had sold it as the latter - it probably would've still recieved a large amount of funding (because it's been years since the launch of any MW product, much more one with a well received art style), but the current player base would not have worried too much about the changes to the state of the game (addition of a third person camera to provide new players with a better understanding of the orientation of their mechs and torsos).
And it would've given them room to maneuver into the in universe battle tech elements.
As it stands, they're pretty much in a no-win situation now given how many 'promises they've broken'. The trust is gone, even if there is a competent game buried in there.
So I guess the lesson of the game is...
Control your messaging. Don't make promises, only give people an indication of the direction you'd like to take the game and always tell them that you reserve the rights to alter the direction of the game upon further development, feedback and evidence. Until these things have actually been made and tested, it's all up in the air. Tell them it's a goddamn outline, and that the details will vary as the pieces start locking together.
Photolysis
Banned
The best developers are their own worst critics.
Negative feedback sucks, but anyone who takes themselves seriously as a creator will value it because they can learn and improve. If you're seriously demoralized by reading GAF, then either you need to grow thicker skin, or make a better product... or both.
Personally, the few times I've done anything artistic (nothing video game related) my response has been far more negative than those giving me feedback, simply because I see where it could be made better and falls short of the standards I'd like. To the point where one of my friends had to tell me to keep things in proportion.
Negative feedback sucks, but anyone who takes themselves seriously as a creator will value it because they can learn and improve. If you're seriously demoralized by reading GAF, then either you need to grow thicker skin, or make a better product... or both.
Personally, the few times I've done anything artistic (nothing video game related) my response has been far more negative than those giving me feedback, simply because I see where it could be made better and falls short of the standards I'd like. To the point where one of my friends had to tell me to keep things in proportion.
Oh for sure, it definitely highlights issues. But sometimes it is just too much, see Hepler leaving Bioware and the Call of Duty guy who slowed down the snipers by like 0.1 seconds. But those cases are rare and probably anomalies.
harsh man, I may just quit the industry
bronk
Banned
This made me laugh so hard.
Devs might not, but reviewers certainly do.
Probably - but it's no different from any other medium. Criticism is as old as creative media and arguably even more voracious when money is involved in the transaction.
Goes with the territory - no different than an actor waking up to discover most people disliked their performance. Heck as an example if Sandra Bullock was to check out movie sites she'd see she's not popular in the Gravity trailers and that's just the trailers!
Goes with the territory - no different than an actor waking up to discover most people disliked their performance. Heck as an example if Sandra Bullock was to check out movie sites she'd see she's not popular in the Gravity trailers and that's just the trailers!
blastprocessor
The Amiga Brotherhood
As a designer/developer (not in gaming l wish) l would feel pretty bad.
If the criticism is constructive, i'd listen to it and even put it on my list of things to do assuming it's not already on there. You have to be agile and adapt to change. Always review as you go along regardless if it's from peers, the customers (the posters on gaf) or media outlets.
Even if the product is out there, i'm listening on feedback so it can be improved via a patch. Software allows problems to easily rectified, there's no excuse to act in the connected world where patches can be deployed easily.
You learn to be tough over the years so it doesn't affect you as much.
If the criticism is constructive, i'd listen to it and even put it on my list of things to do assuming it's not already on there. You have to be agile and adapt to change. Always review as you go along regardless if it's from peers, the customers (the posters on gaf) or media outlets.
Even if the product is out there, i'm listening on feedback so it can be improved via a patch. Software allows problems to easily rectified, there's no excuse to act in the connected world where patches can be deployed easily.
You learn to be tough over the years so it doesn't affect you as much.
IrishNinja
Member
nah bro, games you've never played
which is all of them bwahahaha i know your secrets
RockmanWhore
Member
I think most developpers are well aware of the flaws of their games way before it reaches the internet. And developpers don't make bad games on purpose. More often than not, I'm sure lots of devs are happy to see the reallity shining in the face of their bosses and investors.
OriginalThinking
Member
Very rarely is GAF criticism rational or constructive. "Lol animation" or "Shoddy frame rate" comments on Alpha builds don't really further anything other than circular discussion.
My advice to any developer would be to steer clear of GAF . It's often a haven of ill educated, immature and reactionary content where who shouts the loudest and longest dominates. Ocassionally members with rational, sound objective points make posts, but it tends to get drowned out by the dross. It's entertaining for the neutral however.
Maybe there are limitations and constraints in place during production which hamper the product which the general public are none the wiser about.
Activision loves to change things with a seconds notice or reject ideas at the last minute even though they already approved them 3 months previously. I believe you can't take it all personally.
Activision loves to change things with a seconds notice or reject ideas at the last minute even though they already approved them 3 months previously. I believe you can't take it all personally.
GrotesqueBeauty
Banned
Very rarely? I see insightful posts on GAF every day. Sure, there are shallow posts that don't add much to the discourse, but that's true of any message board. All in all I'd take a couple dozen of GAF's best regulars over the gaming media any day of the week. And if you think rational or constructive criticism is rare on GAF I'd recommend staying far away from other popular online gaming communities.
Prince Vultan
Banned
It's never fun seeing something you put a lot of thought and hard work into get shat on on the internet.
A lot of cruel words were directed my way when I used to write Buffy fanfiction, so believe me, I'm speaking from experience here.
A lot of cruel words were directed my way when I used to write Buffy fanfiction, so believe me, I'm speaking from experience here.
DecoyOctopus
Member
Unless they have CliffyB's adamantium skin...yes, it bothers them.
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