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Do devs get demoralized reading GAF threads that shit on their games?

doesn't bother me too badly, mostly because a lot of the negatives are actually already known. But forums in general can take things to the extremes, which is always fun to watch (I've apparently "raped" so many childhoods just by virtue of working on Kinect Star Wars). I just learn to take it in stride I guess (I've been on forums far longer than I've worked in the industry, so I guess I'm used to it?)
 
I appreciate feedback and ideas and genuine engagement - even, perhaps especially when it is constructively critical.

But I can't abide rudeness, hyperbole and subjective righteousness. They add nothing to the discussion.

I always remind our more sensitive staff that it's not intended to be personal and that exaggeration, dismissiveness and (in console wars) pretend-allegiance are normal.

The signal to noise ratio gets worse every year, however. Eventually it will just be YouTube comments.
 
soul creator said:
doesn't bother me too badly, mostly because a lot of the negatives are actually already known. But forums in general can take things to the extremes, which is always fun to watch (I've apparently "raped" so many childhoods just by virtue of working on Kinect Star Wars). I just learn to take it in stride I guess (I've been on forums far longer than I've worked in the industry, so I guess I'm used to it?)
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Maybe one day Microsoft will let you guys make Monster Truck Madness 3. Like not with Kinect or anything, but just like a great open-world monster truck racing game.

Hell yeah.
 
Never take critisism from armchair generals, ever. It's their fault for taking comments to heart in my opinion.
 
soul creator said:
doesn't bother me too badly, mostly because a lot of the negatives are actually already known. But forums in general can take things to the extremes, which is always fun to watch (I've apparently "raped" so many childhoods just by virtue of working on Kinect Star Wars). I just learn to take it in stride I guess (I've been on forums far longer than I've worked in the industry, so I guess I'm used to it?)
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I think one is very reactive the first few times but I think our community helps you guys put the point across to senior management, sometimes a lot of people are at the lower end of the chain and even if they do have a suggestion, it is brushed aside cause the people at the top running the show think they know exactly what we want and how we want it.
 
You have to grow a thick skin if you want to deal with GAF, or the Internet in general. If anything GAF is tame.

I think is probably easier to deal with when you realize the vitriol and hate is something many posters wouldn't dare to say to your face, and if you are serious about your job criticism should be welcomed, it might require heavy filtering though, you can take "I'll rather have a terminal disease than going through X game again" and similar comments literally.
 
soul creator said:
doesn't bother me too badly, mostly because a lot of the negatives are actually already known. But forums in general can take things to the extremes, which is always fun to watch (I've apparently "raped" so many childhoods just by virtue of working on Kinect Star Wars). I just learn to take it in stride I guess (I've been on forums far longer than I've worked in the industry, so I guess I'm used to it?)
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Kinect Star Wars was the only kinect game I had fun with. Felt like being a child again
 
soul creator said:
doesn't bother me too badly, mostly because a lot of the negatives are actually already known. But forums in general can take things to the extremes, which is always fun to watch (I've apparently "raped" so many childhoods just by virtue of working on Kinect Star Wars). I just learn to take it in stride I guess (I've been on forums far longer than I've worked in the industry, so I guess I'm used to it?)
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I liked Kinect Star Wars!
 
I dont think any game deserves the complete evisceration that some get. I hate the casualness of calling games "shit", because honestly the worst I have found a game to be is boring or slightly frustrating. Im amazed people can become infuriated over games, enough to start calling out developers by name and personally blaming them with everything wrong with a game.
 
A lot of the time the discontent comes from the fact that devs are making a game for a different audience. If they want to make something for a more casual crowd then they shouldn't take it to heart when video game fans on the internet complain about their work. Ryse looks to me like it is aiming for a casual audience who wants to press A for awesome, so if the devs are sad by GAF posts they need to accept that they're not making a game a lot of us find appealing.
 
legacyzero said:
I just hate seeing people that aren't constructive with their criticism. It literally bothers me. Tell me WHY you don't like the game! Don't just give me: "IT'S FUCKING TRRRRBLE!" and "I'm gonna kill your children!"

And it gets extra worse when the game happens to have a semi-competant multiplayer.
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Excluding the killing children part which seems to be on the most vile end of the criticism spectrum, not all criticism has to be pointed and useful to help you make a better game. Sometimes people don't like something. Comments aren't made to help designers reading forums make their games better. They are discussions and visceral reactions to things that happen.

When you view people's conversations as merely a means to conduct market research you lose the entire point of people talking to one another. It's entertainment to a lot of people. It's fun.

I understand why you would want people to say why they didn't like something, but sometimes it can be difficult to articulate for a lot of people. I do agree, It would make the conversation better if more people could make their points in a clearer way.
 
I don't know about western devs but i don't think Japanese devs give a fuck about GAF or the opinions of western gamers in general.
 
Labor said:
I think the real question is "Why do gaffers enjoy trying to demoralize devs?"
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The moment you start empathizing and thinking about the people who made the games is the moment you stop being honest with yourself and what you feel about something.

It's the same reason why members of the press should be concerned about spending too much time with the people they cover. Developers and their feelings should be completely removed from your criticism.
 
JABEE said:
The moment you start empathizing and thinking about the people who made the games is the moment you stop being honest with yourself and what you feel about something.

It's the same reason why members of the press should be concerned about spending too much time with the people they cover. Developers and their feelings should be completely removed from your criticism.
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I completely disagree. Well, maybe not completely.

I get what you're saying about being objective, but I think there's been so much interesting coverage done from Giant Bomb from those relationships with devs. Yes, I know they get lots of crap for always having Harmonix and Double Fine people on their content. But Jeff has said they have always kept the door open for any dev to come by and talk.

I feel like the content they've done has been so illuminating and shined a light on the way games are made. And I don't think they've been ethically compromised, either.

I want those interactions with developers. I want that unbiased journalism mixed with that biased, personal content. Purely objective reporting is boring. At least in my opinion.
 
Yes and no.

It can indeed feel pretty bad when you worked on a game 24/7 (let's say crunched for 6+ months) and put your heart and soul in it.

On the other hand most of us devs can make the distinction easily between constructive criticism (which is always appreciated) and GAF hatred. :)

Also I would say most of the time we know a long time before release what we can expect on the forums etc.
 
daycru said:
Could flip the question around easily, just a couple of months ago, people were criminals for wanting to be able to loan their games to friends.
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That's a publisher decision, not a developer decision. This just shows that most people don't understand the distinction and are happy complaining without knowing what they're talking about.


JABEE said:
The moment you start empathizing and thinking about the people who made the games is the moment you stop being honest with yourself and what you feel about something.

It's the same reason why members of the press should be concerned about spending too much time with the people they cover. Developers and their feelings should be completely removed from your criticism.
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You can be honest and offer constructive criticism without being a dick about it, which is something many people opt not to do in favor of trying to be funny and/or throwing insults.
 
- When a game turns out bad, 95% of the time its devs already know the game is bad. They probably already have a good idea of what review scores will be like and what critical and consumer feedback will be before the game is released. Usually when a game is bad, it's due to reasons outside of the typical developer's control. That coder here, that artist there...they're just doing what they're told.

- Indies aside, I think most games that turn out bad end up that way because of shit publishers in suits and crap leadership/management in general. Nonsensical game concepts, focusing more on targeting as many groups as possible ($$$) by way of dumbing down, poor budget, overly aggressive deadlines, mis-allocation of resources, overworking people, and so on. Dragon Age II comes to mind. Some games are possibly already doomed to severe criticism and lackluster sales before they really get started in serious development. I don't think it's a coincidence that many games that are well received are that way due to devs given sufficient freedom and publishers mostly keeping their hands out of it. Deus Ex: HR comes to mind.

- If you don't have thick skin then you're probably not a good fit for any kind of creative industry. People need to learn while they're still kids that they simply cannot please everyone, and to not try so hard to do so. There are people out there who despise Super Mario Bros. 3, who loathe The Godfather, who think that Shakespeare is utter shit, and who believe that Outkast and The Roots are utter dreck. Can't please everyone. That said, while GAF is far better than places like Gamefaqs when it comes to criticism, there is still a contingent of posters who just like to nastily trash things just because they can. It wouldn't surprise me if they never actually played half the games they slam.

- 99% of gamers don't post on forums, and even those that do, the majority of them don't voice their opinion on a game unless it elicits a strong emotional reaction from them either positive or negative.
 
I think so, yes, but in some times it's not unfair.

It should never get personal, people shouldn't offend the people that worked on the game, but saying that the game is shit (or if you want to be really hyperbolic you can say "the worst piece of shit I've ever played"), even though it may be harsh to read, is valid criticism if that's really how the person feel about the game.

I'll take PewDiePie as an example, I think most of his videos are shit, like, unwatchable, but in his real life videos he seems like a nice and funny guy, cool to hang out with, but his videos are still awful in my opinion. The problem is when people criticize him by saying "wow this guy sucks, he's a fucking retard" and so on.

FilthieRich seems like a cool guy as well, but man, Killer Instinct looks like shit. I don't see why things should get mixed, and it's very unfortunate that they do some times. Things like the recent death threats to that writer's family are awful.

At the end of the day, no matter how you word it, it's just your opinion about the product. You can sugar coat it and say "it's not my thing", but in fact you thought the game was awful.

I just hope more people would elaborate more on their negative criticism, because it can be good feedback, saying something is shit doesn't help the devs to improve, saying it's shit because of x, y and z reasons does. I should probably take my own advice there as well, I try to elaborate, but sometimes I don't.
 
Nah I don't think I've ever really felt bad about someone talking shit about the games I've worked on. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, and GAF is overflowing with opinions.
 
Metalic said:
If I were a developer I would still visit GAF but I'd be more careful of what I say and I'll know who to listen to and who to ignore.
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The amount of times I've typed up a full reply, dissecting the points, etc, and then deleted the post when I realized it's not my fight? Countless. And the ignore option? If I really exercised that option, I'm sure GAF would just be an empty barren wasteland for me.

The fact that I started working at Koei Canada after Fatal Inertia shipped pretty much meant that whatever project I ended up on (no matter how good or bad, how well or terrible it sold) will have the stigma that "lol it's Koei and it's that shitty office that made Fatal Inertia". It's an uphill battle no matter what, and for me, it was far easier for me to just ignore any threads about tangentially related games, and just move over and post about games I play a lot, or just move into OT. In this way, I feel bad for a lot of devs who's name and legacy precedes their product in a negative light. It great to have low expectations of what you can pull off, but it sucks more when it's just met with "well what do you expect, they suck"
 
This is something I wonder too when reading a thread full of vitriol directed at a new release. I hope any devs reading things like that filter the exaggeration and don't take it too hard.

I have also noticed that the vitriol kinda goes away when a dev appears in a thread.
 
AlphaTwo00 said:
The amount of times I've typed up a full reply, dissecting the points, etc, and then deleted the post when I realized it's not my fight? Countless. And the ignore option? If I really exercised that option, I'm sure GAF would just be an empty barren wasteland for me.

The fact that I started working at Koei Canada after Fatal Inertia shipped pretty much meant that whatever project I ended up on (no matter how good or bad, how well or terrible it sold) will have the stigma that "lol it's Koei and it's that shitty office that made Fatal Inertia". It's an uphill battle no matter what, and for me, it was far easier for me to just ignore any threads about tangentially related games, and just move over and post about games I play a lot, or just move into OT. In this way, I feel bad for a lot of devs who's name and legacy precedes their product in a negative light. It great to have low expectations of what you can pull off, but it sucks more when it's just met with "well what do you expect, they suck"
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It really really bugs me how whenever a developer says anything even remotely negative about anything, the first 50 replies or so will be to the effect that he has no room to talk because he worked on Bad Game X a few years ago or hasn't made a good game in 10 years. Us anonymous posters on the Internet are certainly allowed to have and discuss any opinion we want about anything and no one demands that we show our resume, but when someone who actually works in the industry submits an actual opinion, it immediately gets judged through the lens of whether there is anything at all in their past that can be used to discredit them and prove they have nothing worthwhile to say. I'm not even in the industry and the pervasiveness of that knee-jerk rush to ad hominem bugs me.
 
Raging Spaniard said:
-Making good games is incredibly hard, nobody wants to make a shit game! Hell, nobody wants to make a shit GAF post either, and I dont see that stopping a lot of people ... ;)
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False. Shit posting can be lots of fun.
 
Stinkles said:
But I can't abide rudeness, hyperbole and subjective righteousness. They add nothing to the discussion.
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Thats a GAF handle waiting to happen.

SnakeEyes said:
Holy crap, Devs coming out of the GAF woodwork like Termites in this thread!
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Take a bow ladies and gentlemen. You're the reason we're here. Blood, sweat, elbow grease, creativity, compromise, tears, gnashing of teeth, debugging, introspection and nailing that one thing on that one level that'll make us all go OMFG.

Thanks :)
 
As a developer, the thing that demoralizes me more, is watching the fanboys talk about game development like they know what they're talking about.

In fact, one of my proudest game development memories was coming in here to see a game I worked on being gushed over.
 
Tomat said:
You registered for GAF. Your game playing days are long gone.
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On the contrary thanks to gaf i've played and learned about a far more diverse range of games than i ever would have. Time management is key though

RagingAvatar said:
As a developer, the thing that demoralizes me more, is watching the fanboys talk about game development like they know what they're talking about.
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As someone who works in the IT industry and has as a developer, business analyst and project manager I'd have to say that "being a developer" does not make one immune to fanaticism or misdirected enthusiasm. Some "fanboys" do actually understand the intricacies of software development however, that does not prevent them from adopting irrational mindsets and making silly comments
 
diamount said:
No, because it's the internet and everyone hates everything on the internet.
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Pretty much this. The internet is a large enough place where there is always someone somewhere hating your game with a passion and they're very likely telling everyone about. I imagine they avoid message boards like the plague. It's a waste of time.

I wish gamers took better care of what they put out there sometimes (myself included). This world is becoming smaller and smaller these days.
 
I would hope devs don't put much stock into what people post here.

Especially with some of the insane stuff I've seen posted lately.
 
I worked on a game called Primal Carnage which released to average reviews. Our metacritic is sitting at 67 average (http://www.metacritic.com/game/pc/primal-carnage). We were pretty much forced to release early and on launch the game was pretty broken. It's slightly less broken now but still, a lot of the feedback was pretty much warranted. I wasn't demoralized from the player feedback so much as the leadership on that team. We knew it needed a lot of work, you just have to look at the harsher feedback and filter out the emotions and look at what they're really trying to say.

Funnily enough, the threads on NeoGAF were pretty supportive of the game. However, it never had an OT created for it so those threads probably only saw the niche people who played and enjoyed it rather than the entire population of NeoGAF.
 
I think devs are more focused on the community that cares about the game (people on their official forums who don't just bash it without constructive criticism) than sites like gaf
 
Labor said:
That's a publisher decision, not a developer decision. This just shows that most people don't understand the distinction and are happy complaining without knowing what they're talking about.
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Guess you missed all the devs saying they agreed. Guess you miss a lot.
 
My perspective on this is that devs really need to be honest with themselves when looking at criticism of their games. It is hard to do that when you are so invested in something you created, something you worked on day after day for months, perhaps years.

A lot of Internet criticism is hyperbole ("this game is trash") but the underlying issues creating these feelings are often legitimate. The last three (let's call it two and a half to be more precise) games to really disappoint me were simcity, diablo 3, and guild wars 2 pvp (the pve is excellent, so half a game). I've roundly criticized these three games here and elsewhere and things have gotten better--substantially better in the case of simcity, a little better for d3, and not much better (balance is arguably the worst it's ever been) in the case of guild wars 2 pvp. Now I'm not sure whether reading Internet feedback drove a lot of the improvements to the game, but devs should react to criticism by seeking to improve their games and not be demoralized by it.
 
jay said:
A lot of the time the discontent comes from the fact that devs are making a game for a different audience. If they want to make something for a more casual crowd then they shouldn't take it to heart when video game fans on the internet complain about their work. Ryse looks to me like it is aiming for a casual audience who wants to press A for awesome, so if the devs are sad by GAF posts they need to accept that they're not making a game a lot of us find appealing.
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Yep, I agree with this. And this is fine; only thing that gets on my nerves sometimes is when devs/publishers/PR people act surprised that a community didn't like a game, like in the case of Dragon Age II.
 
Dragonzord said:
No, it's really not. People call average games 'horrible, unplayable dog shit'
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Yep. Criticism and hate-piling are different. The latter just happens naturally because we don't personally know the devs, so it's easy for us to dehumanize them(or deify them, for that matter, naughty godz lol). It would be good to be more aware about that stuff.

Also with the hyperbole, but I don't think there's any chance of that changing. Plus, it can be fun to try to identify the exact date that Skyrim went from being the best game ever made to the worst game ever made.
 
daycru said:
Guess you missed all the devs saying they agreed. Guess you miss a lot.
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So chastise those developers. Don't throw the other 99% that didn't post their opinion in with the idiots that did. Most developers I talked to hated the decision because they're (shockingly enough) gamers themselves.
 
I don't think I would visit Gaf as a dev unless I know I could get some constructive criticism. There are tons here who can offer that, but you would also have to put up with useless hate depending on what you're working on.
 
Devs should take this as a way learn from their mistakes. Although harassing a developer is something uncalled for and just makes you a prick.
 
BriareosGAF said:
My daughters enjoyed it, and I think I actually paid for it too! (I usually get a bunch of freebies when I do ATG lab visits.) Brush your shoulders off, man.
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Flightmare said:
Kinect Star Wars was the only kinect game I had fun with. Felt like being a child again
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Andrew_Korenchkin said:
I liked Kinect Star Wars!
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*slides checks forward*

j/k, thanks :P

With KSW, my theory was that although there were obviously a lot of flaws in the game, the combination of Kinect, George Lucas, and "wtf, where's my Battlefront" combined into a potent mixture of hilarious internet hyperbole. Ahh well.
 
I would get demoralized. GAF users easily provide the best criticism on the web, at least from what I've seen. Generally, if ya'll have a big problem with something, it's worth looking into.
 
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