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[shanshan310]

Perhaps if high school was more rigorous this would be true, but it isn't. Bachelor level education is becoming an extension of high school as the latter has failed to be a sufficient generalist education for modern society. Proper high school reform could return universities to being places for research and learning for its own sake, rather than acting as the gatekeepers of the middle class.

This absolutely. Entering university has made me realise how basic stuff taught in high school is. There really needs to be a step up in how kids are taught, and what they are taught so that by the time they graduate they have sufficient knowledge and confidence to enter the real world.

EDIT: another thing the US really needs is a better debt system. The way mine works, I get about 5 grand a year for my degree (no interest) and once I earn over 50 grand they deduct a percentage out of my wage - with the option of paying it back in lump sums as well. Here, you can model yours based on it! If you have a system that pushes everyone into university, you really need the right social systems to support it. I have a feeling this is the cause of a lot of economic problems in the US, but I am just an outsider looking in.

 

[Bgamer90]

I haven't met many of these people actually. I know it may sound crazy, but I think most people pick a course based on subjects they enjoy, usually with a vague idea with their future in mind.

This is the reason why I choose comm. I always wanted to work in media. But I have to agree that many are taking it just to take it.

A bit off-topic but I like science and math a lot and went to a engineering high school & studied electrical engineering and computer programming ("*gasp!... a comm major who likes math?!?*") but it was never something I wanted to do as a career.

After being in a few science and math classes in college, I have to say that I would have hated being a engineering major at my college. My college is no where near as hands on/ interactive when it comes to math/science courses as my high school was (with part of it obviously being due to the greater number of people).

 

[whitehawk]

My parents brought up an interesting point. College/University is not necessary, however it absolutely can help you depending on what you want to do. (My parents both went to Uni btw). However it's drilled into our heads by our schools to go to university if you want to be successful. However the people who are telling us this are teachers, who have all gone to university. University is the only thing they know, of course they are going to recommend it. "I went to uni, and now I'm a teacher and have a good salary". But it's not the only way to succeed.

I'm not bashing on university, just going for the sake of going. I'm trying to figure out what I want to do right now, and will go to school for that.

 

[Rentahamster]

I haven't met many of these people actually.

I have. Part of my work involves art, and I see a lot of "art" being produced that is complete crap. It astounds me that some of these producers of "art" actually paid good money to go to school for this.

 

[Orayn]

I have. Part of my work involves art, and I see a lot of "art" being produced that is complete crap. It astounds me that some of these producers of "art" actually paid good money to go to school for this.

Eh, that's probably just Sturgeon's Law.

 

[Bgamer90]

I have. Part of my work involves art, and I see a lot of "art" being produced that is complete crap. It astounds me that some of these producers of "art" actually paid good money to go to school for this.

What type of art?

 

[OJdaKiller]

The cost benefits of college has dramatically decreased, but there should never be a question of 'are too many kids going to college'? The level and depth of knowledge you attain there is without question. I was floored in my first year how much I learned compared to what I had been conditioned to in high school. It was like night and day.

Granted college is a great place to learn, but the problem with that is you don't necessarily go to college to learn (so to speak). Anyone can learn anywhere. It doesn't take going to college to read a book.

College, was historically, and should be about making a better future for yourself through increasing your earning power thus increasing your opportunities. It's only until fairly recent times that the notion of going to college to "better yourself" has become a reason people pursue higher learning. This is a lie supported by the colleges to sell useless degrees (useless in the sense of one being able to support a family based upon this field of study). Also with the increasing costs of college and the financial times, only certain degrees make financial sense to pursue.

 

[Stinkles]

Perhaps if high school was more rigorous this would be true, but it isn't. Bachelor level education is becoming an extension of high school as the latter has failed to be a sufficient generalist education for modern society. Proper high school reform could return universities to being places for research and learning for its own sake, rather than acting as the gatekeepers of the middle class.

100% correct as it relates to the US an a few other countries, but by no means universal.

 

[Chuck Norris]

Too many kids go to college and think that is an automatic ticket to a job. Its not and there is no reason it should be

 

[Rentahamster]

The cost benefits of college has dramatically decreased, but there should never be a question of 'are too many kids going to college'? The level and depth of knowledge you attain there is without question. I was floored in my first year how much I learned compared to what I had been conditioned to in high school. It was like night and day.

Agreed that college is a vast resource of knowledge yes, but far too many students do not utilize it to its full potential. That some people are amazed by the new things they learn in their first year of college is in part due to the failures of high school as well. (Not saying that your own high school was inadequate, I'm just talking in general.)

 

[Lamel]

Yes, many people are seriously too dumb for college and don't deserve to be there...I know it sounds harsh, but it's true. Only the elite should be going to college.

 

[etiolate]

I don't get this "you have to go to university to be successful mantra" people say they get. I didn't really get that. There's many kids who are funneled towards just being a buying/working part of society. I went to a transition highschool where just getting and maintaining a job was an achievement.

I knew more people who worked as plumbers, repairmen or managers who didn't have degrees than I knew successful college types.

I also went right into the workforce following high school, and I had already been working part-time through most of high school. I went to college because I had experienced the other choice in life for five years and it made me miserable.

To me, this is really a problem of college cost, job market and cultural reception.

 

[Wolf Akela]

It's more of society unnecessarily requiring college degrees. Because of it, kids can't get far without a degree. College wasn't really supposed to be part of basic education.

 

[Rentahamster]

Eh, that's probably just Sturgeon's Law.

Perhaps. My observations are all anecdotal, as I have admitted, and thus subject to my own personal subjective biases.

What type of art?

Photography and music.

 

[aznpxdd]

Agreeing with majority of the people here. I don't think too many kids go to college, but too many kids go to college come out with useless degrees, or later find jobs that are completely unrelated to their major.

 

[shanshan310]

^ Some people have career changes *shock* *gasp*

A bit off-topic but I like science and math a lot and went to a engineering high school & studied electrical engineering and computer programming ("*gasp!... a comm major who likes math?!?*") but it was never something I wanted to do as a career.

I'm similar in that I'm an Asian languages major but was seriously thinking about doing medicine. In the end I realised that if anything was going to make me happy, it was speaking Japanese.

I don't get this whole feud between departments, especially the maths/science majors ragging on comm/ social science majors. If you don't like the subject, don't go into it. But recognise that some people do and that they also have a position in society to fill. Not everyone can be (or wants to be) an engineer. There is no *useless* degree. It just depends on whether the person takes advantage of it.

 

[Bgamer90]

Granted college is a great place to learn, but the problem with that is you don't necessarily go to college to learn (so to speak). Anyone can learn anywhere. It doesn't take going to college to read a book.

College, was historically, and should be about making a better future for yourself through increasing your earning power thus increasing your opportunities. It's only until fairly recent times that the notion of going to college to "better yourself" has become a reason people pursue higher learning. This is a lie supported by the colleges to sell useless degrees (useless in the sense of one being able to support a family based upon this field of study). Also with the increasing costs of college and the financial times, only certain degrees make financial sense to pursue.

Really?

If anything I thought that college was historically about wanting to learn and not solely about increasing your opportunities at getting a high paying job.

Going to college to "better yourself" isn't really new. If anything the reason why so many ARE going to college is due to the idea that you can't get a good paying job if you don't go.

 

[Rentahamster]

Only the elite should be going to college.

If we are raising the bar for what "college" is supposed to be, then perhaps. Going to college and not having a "good education" are not mutually exclusive. It is my belief that everyone should have the opportunity for a good education and be able to afford it. How to effectively do that without bankrupting the rest of us, however, is a good question.

 

[Yoshiya]

100% correct as it relates to the US an a few other countries, but by no means universal.

I'm Australian, so that's my perspective as someone just out of high school. I took a relatively challenging set of academic courses along with a couple of university units, and from making just that basic comparison I can see that much of that content could be introduced in the earlier years of secondary school. A big part of the problem in an Australian context is that the requirements for the only qualification that high school can confer, each state's respective secondary certificate of education, are so low that it is truly worthless. After 13 years of education is is not unreasonable to expect more than "everyday adult writing and maths," which as far as I can tell is primary (elementary) school level literacy and arithmetic. Student choice is great, but diluting expectations and academic standards to accommodate anyone who will occasionally turn up to class is too far. The senior secondary years are either a stepping stone to tertiary education or a worthless exercise when taken alone.

 

[Bgamer90]

I don't get this whole feud between departments, especially the maths/science majors ragging on comm/ social science majors. If you don't like the subject, don't go into it. But recognise that some people do and that they also have a position in society to fill. Not everyone can be (or wants to be) an engineer.

Yeah it's pretty dumb.

Believe it or not, one of the jobs that I've been offered (that I probably won't take since it's not something that I would enjoy doing) involves computer programming & support. The boss said that he had a position that I would fit in and he also said that I seemed like a nice guy that would have no problems with taking orders and dealing with different people. He said that many of the stem majors that he interviewed and/or hired obviously had more than enough knowledge but they weren't good fits in the working environment due to their attitude, people skills, and things in other areas.

After interacting with some STEM majors in the previous classes I took (as well as having to talk to STEM T.A.'s for help in a few of my classes), I definitely saw where the boss was coming from since a good # were pretty rude.

Overall it's funny I guess.

 

[Alpha-Bromega]

Not enough people go to college. An educated populace is the most important thing, and if possible, all people who are willing to take on the work should have the opportunity to.

Only the elite should be going to college.

You are the problem, and don't deserve to live in a democracy or a free state for that matter.

 

[biggersmaller]

The educational process has been my life's war, and I pity those who have the misfortune of not doing well in school. For many reasons, I don't have a four year degree, and I barely passed high school with a 2.0. Yet, it surprises those I disclose this struggle with, that I am capable of such poor performance.

In 2004 I got kicked out of college, I moved back to my parents to find a job, and my girl broke-up with me as I lied about how poorly I was doing at school. I worked some horrible jobs, and generally felt like a bum. I simply sat and envied all my friends who had that ticket of a BA. However, one day I got a crappy phone queue job at a great company. I got my Series 7 (look it up), and now work a white collar, middle management job at the headquarters of a Fortune 500 financial company. I honestly make very good money doing fulfilling work.

Everyone I work with attained at-least a BA. Many MBA.

I am lucky.

Yet, if I were to lose my job...I fear my young family would be screwed out of the income I provide as it would be hard to compete for a similar job without a degree. I need to go back to school, GAF. Yet I am stricken with so much fear of failing after these many good years of success. My employer will even pay for school...yet I simply don't.

Damn it's late...

 

[thetechkid]

Yes, many people are seriously too dumb for college and don't deserve to be there...I know it sounds harsh, but it's true. Only the elite should be going to college.

No, please stop being dumb. Having less educated people isn't a good thing. A lot of people go to college for degrees that won't get them good jobs/pay well but that doesn't mean only the best should be allowed to go learn.

 

[whitehawk]

Sometimes I look at my dad and his brothers and sister.

1 Uncle is a writer for a magazine, and has appeared on TV many times.
2nd uncle is a TV broadcaster and is on TV all the time.
My dad owns his own business in the radio industry
My aunt is a salesperson at retail store

All of them went to University, except my Aunt... She's in her late 60s, and has money troubles, even without kids. Whenever I doubt university, thinking about that makes me want to go. However my dads University education (philosophy major) had nothing to do with the career he has right now, he just worked hard to get where he was. (started at the company as a salesperson until he managed to take over the company).

 

[Lamel]

No, please stop being dumb. Having less educated people isn't a good thing. A lot of people go to college for degrees that won't get them good jobs/pay well but that doesn't mean only the best should be allowed to go learn.

I have nothing against people who go for degrees that won't land them success, that's their thing. I am seriously just talking about people who somehow get in with a shit GPA and shit SAT scores; but you may say that's not indicative of their intelligence,well then you talk to them and there is no doubt they should have been held back in high school...they really aren't cut out for college.

 

[ajf009]

When this many people are going to college it becomes a necessity, the bare minimum. And that's really not a good thing because it's expensive as fucckkkk

 

[thetechkid]

I have nothing against people who go for degrees that won't land them success, that's their thing. I am seriously just talking about people who somehow get in with a shit GPA and shit SAT scores; but you may say that's not indicative of their intelligence,well then you talk to them and there is no doubt they should have been held back in high school...they really aren't cut out for college.

Thats a different thing then, thats stupid people getting lucky.

 

[Monocle]

I have nothing against people who go for degrees that won't land them success, that's their thing. I am seriously just talking about people who somehow get in with a shit GPA and shit SAT scores; but you may say that's not indicative of their intelligence,well then you talk to them and there is no doubt they should have been held back in high school...they really aren't cut out for college.

I'm interpreting this argument to mean that people shouldn't go to college (i.e. an institution that provides an education) unless they're already intelligent and well educated. This doesn't make sense. How about proposing mandatory courses on time management and effective study habits for low scoring students rather than labeling them as too dumb for an education?

 

[Bgamer90]

I have nothing against people who go for degrees that won't land them success, that's their thing. I am seriously just talking about people who somehow get in with a shit GPA and shit SAT scores; but you may say that's not indicative of their intelligence,well then you talk to them and there is no doubt they should have been held back in high school...they really aren't cut out for college.

I had a really good high school GPA but did slightly above average on the SAT's.

It's funny since I did better on the math portion (above average) than I did on reading portion (average) even though I'm currently not taking a heavy math-based major in college.

Either way, I got in to the college I wanted.

 

[Alpha-Bromega]

When this many people are going to college it becomes a necessity, the bare minimum. And that's really not a good thing because it's expensive as fucckkkk

it's a great thing that more people become educated and empowered in various ways, as it becomes more expensive, a realignment of how the U.S. does it's education needs to be implemented. Follow the example of the rest of the civilized world and stop running the system like the giant scam that it is

 

[CrocMother]

Probably, but some 18 year olds aren't prepared for anything. Might as well put them somewhere that lets them pretend for a while.

Why not put them in a place where they can make money and learn fiscal responsibility as opposed to a place that let's them "pretend" with their parents money and simultaneous bury themselves in future debt payments.

 

[etiolate]

I don't get this whole feud between departments, especially the maths/science majors ragging on comm/ social science majors. If you don't like the subject, don't go into it. But recognise that some people do and that they also have a position in society to fill. Not everyone can be (or wants to be) an engineer. There is no *useless* degree. It just depends on whether the person takes advantage of it.

I think the feud stems from funding. When you have a campus that is protesting tuition hikes and how the money is being used, you may find that certain departments aren't as concerned as others. Within a year of me graduating, the entire Russian language and Russian literature program is gone at my school. Before that, another language was axed. Meanwhile, engineering and sciences get new buildings built for them.

This naturally creates animosity between departments of study.

 

[thetechkid]

I think the feud stems from funding. When you have a campus that is protesting tuition hikes and how the money is being used, you may find that certain departments aren't as concerned as others. Within a year of me graduating, the entire Russian language and Russian literature program is gone at my school. Before that, another language was axed. Meanwhile, engineering and sciences get new buildings built for them.

This naturally creates animosity between departments of study.

Don't forget that almost every maths/science major thinks everyone else is stupid.

 

[Lissar]

I think the feud stems from funding. When you have a campus that is protesting tuition hikes and how the money is being used, you may find that certain departments aren't as concerned as others. Within a year of me graduating, the entire Russian language and Russian literature program is gone at my school. Before that, another language was axed. Meanwhile, engineering and sciences get new buildings built for them.

This naturally creates animosity between departments of study.

Perhaps it's just my university, but most of our feuding is between academics and athletics. Because of alumni donations our sports clubs get far more funding than any other area (except for perhaps business, which is also alumni funded. Language students just don't make much money after leaving!) I had a professor who wouldn't get into the argument since he knew we lacked money for basic supplies but loved our sports clubs too much to complain.


I'd be all for making high school education more rigorous and challenging. I know they would rather not since they are trying to get kids to pass (they are dropping like flies as it is!) but I think it would be better to do that than make such a push for college. Most of the education you get in US universities is the general education requirements anyway. It would be a far better deal to get that in high school, and have university (for those who wish to continue study in a particular subject) be more something like a combined bachelors and masters. Ah well, I don't know if it would actually work, but it sounds nice.

 

[Bgamer90]

Don't forget that almost every maths/science major thinks everyone else is stupid.

Yeah, almost everyday I go to a part of my campus in between classes to study, do homework or just relax. The same 12 or so STEM students who are friends (consisting of boys & girls) have been hanging out in the area for the past 4 years I've been at my school. They constantly bash non-stem majors, are rude, loud, have fun making racist and/or childish jokes, etc. They are just very immature.

The other semi-regulars in the study area also feel that they are jerks (when the STEM group left the room one day, everyone else in the room started to talk about them lol).

Whenever I see them I want to leave but all of the other study/"chill-out" spots are too far away from my classes to the point in which I wouldn't have much of a break in between classes if I went to them.

 

[shanshan310]

I'd be all for making high school education more rigorous and challenging. I know they would rather not since they are trying to get kids to pass (they are dropping like flies as it is!) but I think it would be better to do that than make such a push for college. Most of the education you get in US universities is the general education requirements anyway. It would be a far better deal to get that in high school, and have university (for those who wish to continue study in a particular subject) be more something like a combined bachelors and masters. Ah well, I don't know if it would actually work, but it sounds nice.

I think so too. The requirements for passing high school are ridiculously easy (in my state you get your diploma if you pass a maths subject and an english subject in at least one semester in grade 11 or 12 - seriously WTF). They have started to remedy this by making multiple maths and english streams, but we've still got a long way to go. Some kids just float through high school without doing any work, and we're appealing to them (the lowest common denominator) instead of challenging students who want to excel.

 

[whitehawk]

What's the failing grade for US high schools? I heard it was 65% and below, is that true?

Here in Canada it's 50% and below.

 

[RSLAEV]

Too many kids go to college and think that is an automatic ticket to a job. Its not and there is no reason it should be

But when you're a high school kid you won't find a single adult that will tell you that.

 

[Bgamer90]

But when you're a high school kid you won't find a single adult that will tell you that.

Exactly.

 

[Bgamer90]

What's the failing grade for US high schools? I heard it was 65% and below, is that true?

Here in Canada it's 50% and below.

Yep, below 65% is considered a fail.

50% makes sense I guess since you know less than half of the material.

The high schools here in NY state are the hardest out of any other state in the US it seems.

People that move to other states that I know off always tell me that they "moved up a grade" or more and it also seems like the high schools here have more requirements for graduating.

 

[dr3upmushroom]

But when you're a high school kid you won't find a single adult that will tell you that.

Exactly.

That's sort of a bullshit excuse to me. A lot of people seem to be talking about how kids have an extended adolescence now compared to older generations so maybe this attitude is part of that, but personally I think by the time you're 18 you should be able to take plotting out your future into your own hands. Especially now with the internet and extremely accessible information on what majors lead to better paying jobs, which markets are projected to have a shortage of workers, which majors are difficult to find jobs for, how loans work, etc, having a grown person say "Oh no, I'm in a ton of debt and can't find a job, why didn't anyone tell me this was a bad idea!?" just falls flat.

Edit:

Yep, below 65% is considered a fail.

50% makes sense I guess since you know less than half of the material.

The high schools here in NY state are the hardest out of any other state in the US it seems.

People that move to other states that I know off always tell me that they "moved up a grade" or more and it also seems like the high schools here have more requirements for graduating.

The drop-off percentage for failing a class was 50% at my high school, and I just graduated a few years ago. I'm in California, so I guess YMMV at that, unless it's been widely changed very recently.

I'm pretty sure it's 50% or lower to receive an F in most of college courses too, though D's and F's are pretty much the same thing now so it doesn't really matter anyway.

 

[`Moe Joe.]

This absolutely. Entering university has made me realise how basic stuff taught in high school is. There really needs to be a step up in how kids are taught, and what they are taught so that by the time they graduate they have sufficient knowledge and confidence to enter the real world.

EDIT: another thing the US really needs is a better debt system. The way mine works, I get about 5 grand a year for my degree (no interest) and once I earn over 50 grand they deduct a percentage out of my wage - with the option of paying it back in lump sums as well. Here, you can model yours based on it! If you have a system that pushes everyone into university, you really need the right social systems to support it. I have a feeling this is the cause of a lot of economic problems in the US, but I am just an outsider looking in.

Australian high school education is pretty fucking horrendous.

Let's not compare it to the high school mean of the world.

 

[squidyj]

I think it's very clear to split economic arguments from social arguments here. I think an education is a valuable thing socially and personally regardless of what economic utility it provides and I think people shouldn't ever stop trying to learn new things and becoming better people. I feel that often this attitude is thrown away in the face of economy.

However, a lot of kids today are taking on large debt loads to gain degrees that do not necessarily provide valuable work opportunities, there's a real threat they could collapse under those loads.

There remains of course an element of status to a college degree. Whether anyone here would like to admit it or not a college degree still holds some lustre to it, particularly that of the ivy league schools. It seems it would be best for society to promote alternative jobs to youths, trades etc.

 

[GillianSeed79]

If I had to do it over again I would probably have gone to a trade school to become like a plumber or electrician. I wouldn't have nearly wasted five years of my life and would probably make two to three times my salary.

Really, the money is in a masters degree. 50 years ago you could get a good paying job with a high school diploma. Today a college degree means probably less. I have a degree, but I learned more in the first three months of my first real job than my entire college experience. I had a fantastic experience getting a liberal arts education, but it did fuck all increasing my job prospects. My boss could give two shits about whether I aced literature or philosophy 101.

 

[dr3upmushroom]

I think it's very clear to split economic arguments from social arguments here. I think an education is a valuable thing socially and personally regardless of what economic utility it provides and I think people shouldn't ever stop trying to learn new things and becoming better people. I feel that often this attitude is thrown away in the face of economy.

However, a lot of kids today are taking on large debt loads to gain degrees that do not necessarily provide valuable work opportunities, there's a real threat they could collapse under those loads.

There remains of course an element of status to a college degree. Whether anyone here would like to admit it or not a college degree still holds some lustre to it, particularly that of the ivy league schools. It seems it would be best for society to promote alternative jobs to youths, trades etc.

I really question how many people are even bettering themselves though. Sure, there's many people who do take classes their interested in, but I'd say a majority of people I know spend a lot of time searching the catalog for the easiest possible classes to take that fulfill their GE and major requirements, and then use Rate My Professor to find the easiest possible versions of those easy classes.

I should say my college isn't exactly a prestigious university, it's a state school in California that basically anyone who want to can get in, so maybe at better schools the overall attitude is different, but based on my experience I don't buy "People are bettering themselves" as a good justification for the number of people attending college.

 

[demon]

That's sort of a bullshit excuse to me. A lot of people seem to be talking about how kids have an extended adolescence now compared to older generations so maybe this attitude is part of that, but personally I think by the time you're 18 you should be able to take plotting out your future into your own hands. Especially now with the internet and extremely accessible information on what majors lead to better paying jobs, which markets are projected to have a shortage of workers, which majors are difficult to find jobs for, how loans work, etc, having a grown person say "Oh no, I'm in a ton of debt and can't find a job, why didn't anyone tell me this was a bad idea!?" just falls flat.

When you're 17 (the age at which most people plan for college), you are still a kid with virtually no sense of how the world works, and you rely on adults for guidance. Kids in the US are raised since birth to believe that K-12 is one long journey towards college and that college is something you're just "supposed to do". Parents, the school system, the media, society as a whole are steering a lot of kids wrong, whether it's into too much debt, bad majors, going to college at the wrong time in their lives, or going at all. College needs to be brought down to a reasonable cost, K-12 education needs to be vastly improved, and more kids should go to college- with more reasonable expectations of what they'll get out of it, and without being saddled by horrific amounts of debt just for seeking a higher education that not only benefits the student but society as a whole. The whole fucking system is broken, but in a more perfect system, more kids would go to college.

 

[shanshan310]

Australian high school education is pretty fucking horrendous.

Let's not compare it to the high school mean of the world.

Having only studied at high schools in Aus and Japan I can't really comment on the state of schools in the US, but I definitely think the Aus system is better than the Japanese one (50 students in lecture style classes with everyone fast asleep). Anyway, what we lack in high school we totally make up for in our superior student loan system

 

[dr3upmushroom]

When you're 17 (the age at which most people plan for college), you are still a kid with virtually no sense of how the world works, and you rely on adults for guidance. Kids in the US are raised since birth to believe that K-12 is one long journey towards college and that college is something you're just "supposed to do". Parents, the school system, the media, society as a whole are steering a lot of kids wrong, whether it's into too much debt, bad majors, going to college at the wrong time in their lives, or going at all. College needs to be brought down to a reasonable cost, K-12 education needs to be vastly improved, and more kids should go to college- with more reasonable expectations of what they'll get out of it, and without being saddled by horrific amounts of debt just for seeking a higher education that not only benefits the student but society as a whole. The whole fucking system is broken, but in a more perfect system, more kids would go to college.

Well, for better or for worse I think kids are starting to pick up on that college isn't right for everyone (not that I have any evidence for this, but I feel like I read news stories talking about "the college bubble" nearly every day, and it's not uncommon to hear people on my campus say they regret going to college or are taking a year off or the like), so within a few years it may not even matter as much, but I don't agree at all that 17-year-olds are kids.

If you treat them like children then sure, they can obviously like that way, but at 17 if you've been treated like an adult it's also entirely possible that you have the critical faculty to do some research on the consequences of a huge, life-changing decision.

I agree that the system has major flaws, but putting all of the blame on society and none on the kids who are just along for the ride isn't helping anything. Along with cheaper education and more realistic expectations of it, teaching kids more autonomy and giving them tools to think for themselves is far more beneficial than coddling them and treating them like they're not capable of independence before they're 22.

 

[`Moe Joe.]

Having only studied at high schools in Aus and Japan I can't really comment on the state of schools in the US, but I definitely think the Aus system is better than the Japanese one (50 students in lecture style classes with everyone fast asleep). Anyway, what we lack in high school we totally make up for in our superior student loan system

Not really.

The system you describe only encourages lazy students to get degrees in fields such as Creative Arts/Film, then never have to repay their debt and further, be a hinderance on the country's resources.

 

[The Xtortionist]

I don't know what half these kids in college are thinking. I've gotten a 100 on many open book tests when the class average was around 70%. What the fuck.