TheBaronOfNA
Banned
The funny thing is that the Ouya is trying to do that, getting bought by another company.
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Do you still have trust in Kickstarter after Oculus being bought by Facebook?
- Thread starter Oersted
- Start date
The funny thing is that the Ouya is trying to do that, getting bought by another company.
Exactly. I'll never understand why it's become so popular.
I think a large portion of them buy into this false idea that these games or products wouldn't get made otherwise, when it's mostly not true. Does anyone honestly believe OR couldn't have found funding elsewhere? Does anyone honestly believe that Tim Schafer couldn't get funding for an adventure game? But that's what Kickstarter does, it preys on peoples passion and devotion to their hobby and gives them an idea that they are making a difference, that without their donation these companies couldn't carry on with their dreams, etc., when the reality is that the only difference being made is the shift in risk from the developer to the consumer. So no, I wouldn't say too dumb, but I guarantee you that had the Oculus kickstarter said, "Hey we need 2 million dollars so Facebook can buy us for 2 billion...how 'bout it gamers, will you help us?" that their donation page would have looked quite a bit different (for the worse) than it turned out.
plagiarize
Banned
And the Dev Kit 1 hasn't had appropriate support for a dev kit?
Did you back the project? No? Then you don't get to complain on my behalf.
Kickstarter is *patronage*. No donating. Not investing.
But you don't get anything back. They don't take anything from you until the deadline is up. Not even when the goal is hit, but the very final day the campaign actually ends. If it fails, that's that. You just carry on as nothing was taken from you to begin with.
Winterfang
Banned
LOL at those hippie ass comments on the site. I call that Kickstarter a success, they took money from people and billions from Facebook and haven't even had a finished product.
Occulus Rift had 85 million in private investment funds. Kickstarter backers contributed not even 2% of the company's net worth, after you figure out the cost of fulfilling backer rewards.
And they didn't pocket the cash and run. Everyone is still with the company.
plagiarize
Banned
Broken Age is a product that shipped, that I own now.
My Rift DK is on the desk right next to me.
I did not expect anything more than those final projects. I have only backed companies that I believe can deliver on their pitches.
Oculus's kickstarter was for the Rift DK and ONLY the Rift DK.
Stop saying 'donation'. Because no one donated and no one invested.
This ain't me going this way or that way mate.
I'm just saying I figure that's why people are pretty upset.
I'm not fussed either way.
edit: but reading it back, I definitely did an awful job of airing my thoughts!
It can be a donation but it rarely is. It's basically a pre-order system. You usually get something for the money you pledge, and in this case, we all did. I'm not even sure they broke even with that money anyway. Donation my @$$.
TheBaronOfNA
Banned
You are talking about the same industry that has doubts about making another MegaMan game.
The main reason why that postal service analogy fails is because the USPS neither facilitates nor publicly endorses 419 scams, whereas Kickstarter not only facilitated that lady's scam, they publicly endorsed/supported it as well.
I find Kickstarter to be an unethical company because they kept that scam Kickstarter up, despite the massive evidence against the creator of the project, as the success of it was in their financial interests since they get a cut of whatever was raised. That is the reason why I will never back a Kickstarter, because I know a portion of that money will go to Kickstarter the company.
What you guys are defending is the idea of crowdfunding, which I support as well. I don't think crowdfunding, as an idea, should be abandoned because of this whole Oculus fiasco. What backers need to realize is that they're essentially preordering or donating to the project, not investing in it in return for a share of the project/company.
Exactly, that's my biggest problem with Kickstarter itself.
People who want Kickstarter to burn... the problem is with you. Not them. Seriously you need something worthwhile to hate on.
Yes, they have. A development kit is a finished product. Let's not be stupid.
plagiarize
Banned
It's patronage. It's providing an artist with funding to work on a specific project.
Say I kickstart an independent album, and then that band subsequently gets hired by a major record company, I don't flip out like a moron and ask for a cut of their signing bonus, because I understand the whole point of kickstarter.
ReturnOfTheRAT
Member
What's so hard to believe? I've made pledges to help people make video programming, podcasts, movies, and Blu-rays. I've either received access to that content or will so in the future. Nowhere in the pledge range that I selected did it says I was making an investment and was to own a part of the profits or company if they get purchased.
Eh, I trust KS now as much as I did to begin with. It's not their fault that some devs want to grow beyond the scope of KS. Of course having said that, I'd never KS'ed hardware, only games and I've been very particular about those as well. I truly do believe Brian Fargo when he says Wasteland 2 wouldn't exist without Kickstarter, for example. Or Shadowrun Returns, for another example. There are just some games in specific genres that publishers will not take a risk on even though fans have been wishing for them for decades, in some cases. Those are what I'm interested in and will back and so far it's worked out well for me.
plagiarize
Banned
It's also the exact same product their kickstarter was for.
Again, are there any actual backers in this thread that have a grievance? Because any grievance is between the backers and Oculus. Us backers have already seen the project succeed, and already have our promised rewards.
So... I'm not sure where the grievance is supposed to be.
Depends on the kickstarters, some have an almost finished game when they're doing the KS and just asking for some money for some external costs for finishing up the project, but many are rough concepts asking for the entire development budget up front.
Kickstarter projects never owe people shit, thats why I always back at the lowest level and only projects that meet some strict criteria. This is akin to a KS asking for money to make a company some pitch, like Ouya getting the console made in order to convince some dumbass investor to give them 15 millions, that guy probably owns a lot of the company and has a lot of pull into its director, why is no one whining about him?
Boss Mog
Member
This is why I would never Kickstart anything. It's like a company asking you to invest in its stock but then but when there's a huge payday for the company, you don't see any returns.
If they were cool they could use 5 mil out of the 2 bil and give the backers back double their money. 5 mil only represents 0.25% of 2 bil, it's insignificant. The backers' 2.5 mil is what got oculus where it is today, kind of crappy not to thank the backers properly imo.
If they were cool they could use 5 mil out of the 2 bil and give the backers back double their money. 5 mil only represents 0.25% of 2 bil, it's insignificant. The backers' 2.5 mil is what got oculus where it is today, kind of crappy not to thank the backers properly imo.
I wish more ppl realized this...
plagiarize
Banned
And both are completely acceptable so long as the pitches say what they are looking for the money for.
Seriously people, read the damn FAQ.
https://www.kickstarter.com/help/faq/kickstarter+basics?ref=faq_subcategory#Kick
And you do? What about the current industry would give you that impression?
If you're not getting what was specifically promised to you in the reward descriptions then that's a different problem, they need to make good on that for sure.
If people are mad that they donated to this and it didn't turn into exactly what they wanted... well that's business.
This company was created to be acquired. The tech is still kinda far off in terms of getting them on shelves and with big publisher support. They couldn't survive forever without support. Facebook might change their objectives, but in the end I think it'll be good for VR... gaming or not.
It's some kind of weird self-entitlement that because they backed the product means the company should follow with all the dreams and aspirations those backers had. Oculus was gonna face this "backlash" eventually since there's no way such technology would remain exclusive to gaming, so I prefer they're facing it now than later when most people get their hands on it and start associating it more with PC gaming.
crazygambit
Member
You don't seem to understand how Kickstarter works. The key difference between your cupcake example an KS is completion risk. When you buy a cupcake you only pay after you receive it. On KS you pay then you wait for the project to be completed and get your reward. The completion risk of the project is wholly assumed by the backers. I have some experience in project finance and the amount of collaterals, and financial covenants financiers will ask of a project and a sponsor to provide precompletion financing is substantial. They will look very closely how the money is spent, you can be sure about that.
Here backers take the same kind risks with absolutely no collaterals of any kind, no say on how the money is spent like a lender would and absolutely no upsides if the project is massively successful like an equity investor would have. It's the worst of both worlds.
Now you'll tell me there's a contract and that the projects are required to fulfill their reward promises, but if you know anything about risk ratings you'll know it's not worth the paper it's printed on. The chances of backers getting a dime back from a failed and bankrupt Kickstarter project is for all intents and purposes zero.
I do find it strange that only know people seem to be realizing the precarious position they assume as backers of a project, it's always been pretty evident. Seeing it as a donation like you posted above might be the best way to view it. If something comes out of such a donation it would be your upside, nothing more.
TheRagnCajun
Member
I'm not saying that either, I just don't think you can blindly say it doesn't matter what happens to Oculus since backers got their dev kits. The dev kits are just a means to an end.
plagiarize
Banned
Oculus have been talking about applications beyond gaming since, well since always... and anyone who thinks they've been focused solely on high end core gamer experiences... hasn't been paying any attention either.
Facebook may ruin the company. They may take this thing in a horrible direction, but there was never the promise that the Rift would be solely aimed at hardcore gamers. Never.
TheBaronOfNA
Banned
And some others invest their own money to even have their studio running.
You are right, depends of the KS Project. But you sound like it was Shaquille O'Neal asking for making Shaq Fu 2 eternally and withouth pause.
Ninja Scooter
Member
Kickstarter is responsible for like 2% of their funding and people think they deserve to have a say in ever business decision from that point on? People got exactly what they were promised and paid for. If you had the false understanding that you were now some kind of investor or shareholder you that's your own fault because you were sorely mistaken.
plagiarize
Banned
The kickstarter was just a means to produce dev kits. When that project was successfully completed and all appropriate rewards were shipped out, any obligations between anyone had been completely fulfilled. You have to have an insane sense of entitlement to think otherwise.
Facebook is a capable company that just brightened the long-term prospects of VR, but I am still floored. I was a backer – I have the low-res development unit (and t-shirt!) to prove it. I still can't believe it. Holy shit.
I wonder who at Facebook was so enamored with it that they had to have the company.
I wonder who at Facebook was so enamored with it that they had to have the company.
ReturnOfTheRAT
Member
It's a donation, a hand out. I'm intrigued by what you're doing and want to help you. You need $500 by the end of March to make something. I only get charged if you reach that goal by the end of March. If you don't, no money is ever withdrawn.
Omnii-chan
Member
To me this isn't about trusting Kickstarter at all, people got the dev kits they paid for right?
The big thing is the buy out and I don't like Facebook and they may try to meddle with Occulus development.
The big thing is the buy out and I don't like Facebook and they may try to meddle with Occulus development.
Ninja Scooter
Member
You don't get your money back if any investment in any sort of business fails. If you invest in a restaurant, and it fails, your money is gone.
As far as kickstarter, it's a donation. An investor would expect to get a share of the profits of a product. If KS were an investment, all of the backers would be getting paid right now with this $2 billion sale.
With Kickstarters you get no such agreement. You don't get a share of the profits. All you get is whatever throwaway goodies they promised for the tier you pledge. That's the only thing they owe you.
I'm not disagreeing, but gaming was their initial focus that would propel them to those applications you're stating. From their kickstarter page:
First sentence. People probably just read that, got engulfed by the hype and envisioned the future of gaming (which isn't false). This acquisition should facilitate the process of getting there, and it's a smart move before any competitors show up and get there first.
Or FTL, Chivalry, Giana Sisters, Shadowrun Returns, Broken Age, Shovel Knight and Banner Saga.
I think Kickstarter has established itself as a nice choice for funding games, hardware is a bit spotty (Ouya, that smart watch that sucks).
plagiarize
Banned
Ninja Scooter
Member
I don't understand how it's a scam. People know exactly what they are getting. If you back someone with little experience or no set business plan then there is a good chance you are going to lose your money.
plagiarize
Banned
Again, nothing in that that suggests hardcore games only. There are going to stacks of really awesome casual experiences in the Rift. Hell there already are. Casual gaming has been part and parcel of it since day one.
Other applications will follow too... Same way that we saw with say the Xbox 360. Games first, leading to other uses as the price of the hardware falls.
Not that that's necessarily a good thing, but VR's use in hardcore gaming isn't threatened by the facebook acquisition. Oculus's place in that may be, but VR? Nope. It's coming. It's staying.
Lol. While the Kickstarter backers of the Oculus are most likely disappointed with this shift in the vision this is by no means the worst KS project. There have been plenty of KS projects who failed completely (never send out any rewards, I backed one of those) and plenty of KS projects who sent out rewards but not to the specification of the Kickstarter. Compared to those Oculus is relatively successful.
I did not back Oculus, since I was not really interested in the rewards or the idea (I would have invested in it though, same with Pebble, both of those looked like good investments but as products too beta).
Note that KS is neither an investment platform nor a marketplace for products. It is a marketplace for ideas. And there will always be fraudsters, stupid ideas, ideas which need changing (I am not sure Oculus is one of them) and people who don't have the skills to realize an idea leading to failed Kickstarters.
I will still use Kockstarter to back interesting projects. Will back Flying Hamster II when it goes live next week (which will be backed project number 58 for me).
I did not back Oculus, since I was not really interested in the rewards or the idea (I would have invested in it though, same with Pebble, both of those looked like good investments but as products too beta).
Note that KS is neither an investment platform nor a marketplace for products. It is a marketplace for ideas. And there will always be fraudsters, stupid ideas, ideas which need changing (I am not sure Oculus is one of them) and people who don't have the skills to realize an idea leading to failed Kickstarters.
I will still use Kockstarter to back interesting projects. Will back Flying Hamster II when it goes live next week (which will be backed project number 58 for me).
TAJ
Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
I prefer to think of it as corporate welfare, just not funded with tax dollars.
plagiarize
Banned
Kickstarter's rules are clear. There have been scams on Kickstarter, but I don't see any truth in your claim that Kickstarter itself is a scam.
Susan Wilson had experienced no consequences for her project, for one.
The Bluetooth Spectrum Keyboard was another example where developers of the games for sale got no recompense.
TheRagnCajun
Member
Ok.
The return of the investment is the game itself, not money.
The risk is that the game will not come out or that it will suck. The potential reward is that the product exists, whereas it would not have otherwise.
The only difference from it being a purchase is that you knowingly take on an element of risk.