Uhh... no, just no.
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Do you think JRPGs declined or just stuck in the past?
- Thread starter TheFLYINGManga_Ka
- Start date
I should clarify what i meant. By 'dynamic elements', i'm refering to gameplay-related conditions that change from one battle to another. Each stage in Disgaea has unique geo effects, so you are actually encouraged to experiment with new strategies as you progress through the game.
Compare this with old-school RPGs that force you to fight the same 5 wolves over and over again in a static situation, you should see why i vastly prefer the first scenario.
Xilium
Member
My bad, misread.
scytheavatar
Member
At the moment, WRPGs aren't even tapping a fraction of what the older WRPGs like Ultima, Betrayal at Krondor, Planescape Torment did offer. Heck like you said they are dumbing down each TES game and there's a lot of potential for other developers to show Bethesda how to make a good game. There's just much more growth potential for WRPGs than there are for JRPGs, then for JRPGs to come back in style again you need your Square Enix etc to get their acts together first. The never ending wait for FFXIII versus shows you shouldn't bet on that happening.
Some of them have, anyway. Let's look at an example:
Seiken Densetsu 3/Secret of Mana 2:
I want more turn-based HD console RPGs, myself. Preferably with high production values, an interesting storyline and great music.
The biggest decline for me was the lack of new console entries in some of my favorite franchises of the past - no new console Wild Arms, Breath of Fire, Suikoden, Arc the Lad, Mana, SaGa (excepting Last Remnant), etc.
Can't stand western RPGs due to the over-reliance on Star Wars and Lord of the Rings type settings/themes. And horrifically ugly character art. I'd prefer the most milquetoast anime designs (read: Tales of Symphonia) before american RPG character design which has gone so far as to make even Yvonne Strahovski look unappealing.
The biggest decline for me was the lack of new console entries in some of my favorite franchises of the past - no new console Wild Arms, Breath of Fire, Suikoden, Arc the Lad, Mana, SaGa (excepting Last Remnant), etc.
Can't stand western RPGs due to the over-reliance on Star Wars and Lord of the Rings type settings/themes. And horrifically ugly character art. I'd prefer the most milquetoast anime designs (read: Tales of Symphonia) before american RPG character design which has gone so far as to make even Yvonne Strahovski look unappealing.
I agree with the bolded parts. My favourite WRPG this gen (Dragon Age Origins) has some of the most unappealing and uninspired theme i've ever seen. Fortunately, it happens to be one of those games i play solely for its gameplay.
I'm not so sure about the 'Star Wars' thing though, what other WRPG series did it inspire aside from the Mass Effect games?
a) It's important to draw a distinction between "it's anime because it has Japanese art" / "it's anime because the main characters are teens rather than twentysomethings" and games which are actually mix-media projects designed to appeal to the anime market.
b) Tales is, in fact, in category two there. It's probably the only actual "anime" JRPG most of this thread has ever heard of, but it definitely is one, by the staff's own words.
SatelliteOfLove
Member
I've always thought of grinding like that as Easy Mode, but balanced out with the work.
ii Stryker
Banned
I stopped enjoying JRPG's once I experienced Oblivion. I grew tired of the whiny emo boy whore characters, the stop/start gameplay and Japanese story telling.
WRPG's give me a more fluid and dynamic experience with better story telling.
WRPG's give me a more fluid and dynamic experience with better story telling.
ScrabbleBanshee
Member
I'm in my 30's now and haven't been able to relate to anything going in in JRPGs for some time. The content is just third rate teenage girl material a la twilight (or from what I've heard, I have yet to experience anything twilight myself).
I agree with other comments about being worn out with the dragons and goblins which is why I'm kind of hyped for more diablo... it's kind of in the same medieval fantasy vein but somehow demons and the even stereotypical evil setting are still fresher after all this time.
Is Diablo 3 an RPG? I think people are painting RPGs with narrow strokes with their arguments about what that is/means... RPG for me has always just boiled down to character development and loot collecting and it doesn't really have anything to do with how much story line is attached.
I agree with other comments about being worn out with the dragons and goblins which is why I'm kind of hyped for more diablo... it's kind of in the same medieval fantasy vein but somehow demons and the even stereotypical evil setting are still fresher after all this time.
Is Diablo 3 an RPG? I think people are painting RPGs with narrow strokes with their arguments about what that is/means... RPG for me has always just boiled down to character development and loot collecting and it doesn't really have anything to do with how much story line is attached.
R_thanatos
Member
What i bolded means nothing to me .. It's anime because there are teenagers ? Incredible.
Radiant historia "Stocke" is 19year old, aht is 9years old , raynie & marco 17yold.
By that definition , radiant historia is anime mainstream too ?
The age of the cast means nothing , what matters is the delivery ..
On that aspect, rebirth, xillia or EVEN Tales of destiny doesn't fit that 2nd category ( for example ) ..
I'm not saying that "Tales of" isn't mainstream but if we have to avoid everything that is mainstream, then you don't play much regardless of the provenance of the game.
Er? You're agreeing with me on the first part, basic art/age have very little to do with it.
But Tales is very specifically intended to target the anime market, the creators say it's intended to target the anime market, the big difference in staffing compared to other RPG series is pulling in people from the anime industry, etc, etc. There is such a thing as an "anime RPG" and Tales is the textbook definition where something like FF isn't.
Mihos
Gold Member
This is what I like the best as well... although I will admit, I loved FFXIII-2. It seems like most western RPGs always devolve into an FPS at some point.
Really? I still haven't played a western RPG with better writing/plot than Planescape Torment which came out in '99 I believe?
Late to the topic with my own thoughts, I know, but I don't think JRPGs have gone down in quality at all this gen they've just moved on to portables for the most part to remain alive. Which is a route I greatly prefer when you take a look at western games with budgets larger than they probably should be coming out for consoles then under performing and the dev is hit with massive lay offs or simply closing down.
Like it or not JRPGs that aren't Pokemon or FF have always been pretty niche outside of Japan and while I don't have sells numbers for games of the PS1 and PS2 era I'd wager sells for stuff like Grandia, Wild Arms, Lunar, and many other beloved JRPGs were probably not very great outside of Japan. Thing is it wasn't as expensive to make a console game back then so we saw them there. This just isn't the case anymore.
Basically what I am getting at is there doesn't seem to be much room on consoles atm for those middle-tier non AAA games for any genre, or at the very least it's a gamble to put them out. I really hope next gen we can return to how things were in the PS1 and PS2 eras because I highly doubt people would be talking so much about the death of JRPGs if all of the amazing ones to come out had not been on PSP and DS. Even a company like Square who gets a lot of flack for FF13 has put out some absolutely amazing games on the two handhelds.
Like it or not JRPGs that aren't Pokemon or FF have always been pretty niche outside of Japan and while I don't have sells numbers for games of the PS1 and PS2 era I'd wager sells for stuff like Grandia, Wild Arms, Lunar, and many other beloved JRPGs were probably not very great outside of Japan. Thing is it wasn't as expensive to make a console game back then so we saw them there. This just isn't the case anymore.
Basically what I am getting at is there doesn't seem to be much room on consoles atm for those middle-tier non AAA games for any genre, or at the very least it's a gamble to put them out. I really hope next gen we can return to how things were in the PS1 and PS2 eras because I highly doubt people would be talking so much about the death of JRPGs if all of the amazing ones to come out had not been on PSP and DS. Even a company like Square who gets a lot of flack for FF13 has put out some absolutely amazing games on the two handhelds.
It's probably the drive for REAL REAL REAL in the west that's dragging JRPGs in the west. Back when characters were depicted by a few pixels people could fill in the blanks better in terms of what they wanted -- that hero could be a Conan-esque ripped muscle dude or some anime guy swinging blades twice his size. From around FF7 you saw things going anime-heavy, but things were still blocky enough that people could fill in the blanks.
Nowadays you're not trying hard if you don't write in all the wrinkles of that old mage, or each muscle group on that barbarian. There's much less of a need to fill in the blanks, and as a result, games are able to focus more on the intended audiences.
Nowadays you're not trying hard if you don't write in all the wrinkles of that old mage, or each muscle group on that barbarian. There's much less of a need to fill in the blanks, and as a result, games are able to focus more on the intended audiences.
GameArts games are a pretty bad example. I believe Grandia is the only Game Arts game that sold more than 250k in Japan alone.
PS1 era had some "good" selling non FF/Pokemon games. Chrono Cross sold 650k, Parasite Eve 890k. Legend of Dragoon was close to million in NA alone. Star Ocean 2 is also at 370k.
PS2 era got worse I guess, I only know Tales of Symphonia did about 630k in NA/EU. Star Ocean 3 is at around 600k in NA/EU as well. I couldn't find much else, but Tales of the Abyss and Legendia are both at ~50k in NA. And people wonder why we didn't get Tales games in the west.
edit: Dark Cloud supposedly sold over a million worldwide and the only number I can find for Japan is 70k, so thats at least 930k copies sold in the west.
Of course, for each JRPG that sold at least 500k in the West, there are countless that probably didn't even make the 100k.
R_thanatos
Member
What's wrong with that again ? i never said that Tales of aren't anime, but that being anime doesn't make them similar . ( first point )
And that having a cast of late teenagers isn't a bad point at all as long as the actual delivery is great ( second point )
Overall , Tales of games aren't similar in term of gameplay ( third point )
but don't bother going for Abyss or Graces F if anime is the only thing preventing you from enjoying it ( fourth point ).
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The anime market is vast , and being "anime" doesn't mean anything when being "anime" is too large to even see what he thinks "tales of" are similar. SMT also is in the realm of "anime" yet you can go mainstream( devil survivor ds) to elite ( strange journey ) passing by persona , so IMO that point ( about anime making them all similar ) was silly at best . What's more there were plenty of titles and he made a general statement about a series after playing only 2 games from them when there is obvious more than that ).
Me too , i can say "All final fantasy are similar, if you've played one , you've played them all " after playing crystal chronicles & ring of fates.
^^ i don't have to explain that this statement above is false ...
And what Créators are you talking about ? tales of games were made by 7 differents set of teams ( at least ) even one having their idea to what they wanted to do... I guess that make all the games similar again , right ??
I can't even figure out what you just said in this post.
Don't forget that the vast majority of FF characters have been teenagers, even when the artist was Amano or Yoshida and not Nomura.
D3RANG3D
Member
Mass Effect is developed in Canada...
R_thanatos
Member
Then look at the start of my intervention and look for the clues , you'll understand eventually . ( hint : follow the quotes )
My point is clear and explained.
i didn't.
Having a cast of teenagers is common in jrpgs , hardly a reson to separate them from the rest ( or be a valid reason to avoid them )
I feel there is an improvement in dialogue structure. In most RPGs, even last gen games like KotOR 1 and 2, I felt interactions to be very rigid. In games like The Witcher series, Alpha Protocol, Mass Effect or Deus Ex Human Revolution, they felt a lot more like actual conversations between people, rather than robots throwing crazy long winded and overly descriptive speeches at each other and you usually don't return to something like a root menu with a stock line e.g. "Anything else you want?" where you can go over everything again.
I was mostly just tossing around well loved names, like I said I don't know actual concrete sells for any of those old games in places outside of Japan. But, like you said yourself there were countless that didn't even make 100k which was my main point, it's that the market isn't that different from what it is now in the grand scheme of things, it's just most JRPGs are on portables instead of home consoles. We still see a few breakout "successes" (we have Demon/Dark Souls in recent years as a good example) but it's not like the genre has died off or something, just simply shifted to survive.
Like I said though, I just hope next gen can bring a lot of them back to consoles. Maybe it won't happen and I have no problem playing them on my 3DS or Vita when I inevitably buy one but I sure am personally getting burnt out with the majority of games coming to consoles nowadays and find myself spending more time gaming on my 3DS, PSP, and PC.
murderofMonkey
Banned
I was really bored with Xenoblade. the battlesystem was boring, the beginning of the story was boring, the character design was generic and even the music was boring. the game isn't bad, but there is nothing special.
I had much more fun with the Souls Series.
Nier had some cool ideas e.g. the sidescroller perspective in buildings, the story had some special things and the game has an entertaining battlesystem.
Blue Dragon is very classic but the technical part is lacking.
Valkyrie Chronicles is unique in its way.
I hope Dragons Dogma will be even better than DSouls
I had much more fun with the Souls Series.
Nier had some cool ideas e.g. the sidescroller perspective in buildings, the story had some special things and the game has an entertaining battlesystem.
Blue Dragon is very classic but the technical part is lacking.
Valkyrie Chronicles is unique in its way.
I hope Dragons Dogma will be even better than DSouls
RoninChaos
Member
That's actually a very big reason for some people. Some people don't want to play as whiny ass teenagers.
That IS a valid reason to avoid them. Why wouldn't it be? Why is it not valid?
I think its fairly common knowledge that jrpgs on the whole target the teen demographic. If you're not a part of that demographic, the game isn't pitched at you. And this is not just a design approach, it's clearly felt when you play the game.
Avoiding jrpgs for those reasons is as valid a reason as any other you can think of. If you feel a disconnect when faced with a throng of 8 year olds who are discussing the heady topics of loyalty, sacrifice and (for fucks sake) love, then that's a reasonable reaction. I'm not saying you ought to avoid jrpgs if you're not a teen of course. But people avoid stuff that isn't pitched towards them in all forms of media. Games are no different.
SatelliteOfLove
Member
He means "they contain japanese tropes", nothing more. Just one'll fuck up an entire game! It also damns him as one who's never played a Matsuno or Megaten game, the poor man.
Witchers are good shit when it comes to writing, of course.
spirity said:
Imma tangent this with observations made earlier by others about "bad anime" creeping in lately. Not the Tales stuff, not the Mana stuff up the page there, but intentionally crafted inward-looking aesthetics. It's hard for titles designed with that laser focus on set of tastes to break out, as the onus is on the product, not the audience as to why it didn't sell great gameplay/music/whatever else be damned.
Western devs have stepped their game up, eastern devs need to do the same. I still haven't seen a JRPG where it made my go "wow..." in terms of graphics. I'm aware not everything is graphics but it's still important in my opinion.
Edit: Errr I lied, now that I think of it, I said wow in Lost Odyssey's opening http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pJWZlqLxiLg , the transition from video to gameplay was mindblowing at the time (3:00 mark on the video)
Edit: Errr I lied, now that I think of it, I said wow in Lost Odyssey's opening http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pJWZlqLxiLg , the transition from video to gameplay was mindblowing at the time (3:00 mark on the video)
witchedwiz
Member
I'll cute you some current gen comparison....
Ar tonelico, sexual innuendo first In the serie, oh..
Second more teenager angst innuendo with a polished battle system and a soso story..
Third incredibly bland story and toned down battle system.
Cool story
Ar tonelico, sexual innuendo first In the serie, oh..
Second more teenager angst innuendo with a polished battle system and a soso story..
Third incredibly bland story and toned down battle system.
Cool story
To be fair, FF13 near took my breath away in terms of graphics. I wasn't taken with its art direction, but technically 13 was superb.
Lost Odyssey was another game that was pretty nice as well (like I said in my edited post), but graphically they don't compete with games like ME3, Skyrim, Witcher 2, etc.
is this because eastern devs cannot afford to spend more money or something?
IMO, I think it's because the costs of making an epic RPG game has increased beyond the point where companies can make a profit. This is true for many companies who have poured tons of money into games for the PS3 and Xbox 360 and came back in the red on those projects. Why do you think so many developers have gone out of business or been shut down by their publishers?
If you want an example of where RPGs are/were thriving this gen, just look at the DS. This little handheld has gotten some of the best RPGs I've ever played like Radiant Historia, Infinite Space, and Etrian Odyssey.
In fact, I would blame the high costs associated with the PS3 and 360 with the deaths of many middle games and series.
If you want an example of where RPGs are/were thriving this gen, just look at the DS. This little handheld has gotten some of the best RPGs I've ever played like Radiant Historia, Infinite Space, and Etrian Odyssey.
In fact, I would blame the high costs associated with the PS3 and 360 with the deaths of many middle games and series.
Meccanical
Member
I really wasn't impressed with XIII's graphics at all.
PSP also has some amazing JRPGS
Agreed. I recently got a PSP Go and am starting to play some of those amazing JRPG games. I've just had more playing time with my DS since I had one ever since the Lite version was introduced.
ItWasMeantToBe19
Banned
This is sure a great title.
My PSP stopped reading memory stick so I ever got to play many of the amazing JRPGs it had, other than Crisis Core and Birth By Sleep, but now I got a Vita and I've been buying a few JRPGs. I also have a few of them on my DS. I guess JRPGs have shifted to handhelds
SatelliteOfLove
Member
Bingo. Spectacle is a luxury now, unlike the past. Less cost-intensive aspects like gameplay, music, art direction, etc foot more of the load similar to how indie games do.
Not all teenage characters are whiny by default, though. Look at the cast of Final Fantasy Tactics. Ramza, Delita, and Alma all start the game as teens, but they're not exactly whiny. In the same vein, not every adult ISN'T whiny. There've been plenty of angsty old guys in FF. For awhile there was one per game. Tellah, Galuf, Cyan, Sazh. And so on.
Likewise, some people forget that protagonists at times are made to be unlikeable at first so that they can grow into being good people as the game goes on. Case in point: Neku from TWEWY. He starts the game off as cliche and annoying and angsty or whatever you want to call it as a Square game can get. As of the 2nd chapter, though, he's already much friendlier, much nicer, and nowhere near as whiny or whatever.
aliencowz7
Member
Honestly, anyone that can say that wrpgs have been getting better over time with a straight face is out of there damn mind, I cant even fathom that. I literally cant think of a single facet that has gotten better in wrpgs aside from like maybe graphics i guess? but that's more of technology getting better not the games themselves. Combat, Story, Writing , Characters , Atmosphere and World Building have all drastically gotten worse compared to older wrpgs to the point that the only ones i could bear playing without getting put to sleep were stuff like deus ex and the witcher.
Like i said earlier in the thread, this isn't even a rpg problem, its a game problem and has been happening for a long time now with the increasing cost of production and games getting pushed out far before they are ready.
Like i said earlier in the thread, this isn't even a rpg problem, its a game problem and has been happening for a long time now with the increasing cost of production and games getting pushed out far before they are ready.
R_thanatos
Member
You're assuming that the age of the main characters dictate the content of the story ?
I'm sorry but that isn't true everytime.
You can go from generic mainstream moe- like ar tonelico to devil survivor .. BOth have teens , but they have a different delivery , different themes ...
By judging on the age of the character and not on the story they tell , you can miss a story that deal with death or consequences ( devil survivor for example ) quite darker than most ...because of the age only ?
BOTH OF YOU automatically assume that teenagers = whinny and that Every game with teenagers talks about the very same things ...
I've haven't seen such a way to use clichées in a long time congratulations.
4/6 of the radiant historia cast is "teens" yet none of your clichés are present.
Must i pick another rpg that doesn't fit ? ( there are plenty ).. What matters is the story not the age of the cast .. hence my point above.
You're free to judge games by your own standards but this filter just make you miss lots of stuff
Meccanical
Member
What the hell does angsty even mean to people?
If something sad happens to someone and they frown even the slightest bit they are always called angsty it seems
The only thing that I could recommend would be Rune Factory, Etrian Odyssey, and Xenoblade - but it's doubtful that you'll enjoy any of them if you didn't like all of the stuff you listed. It's probably time for you to move on.
If you think pretty much any game between Pokemon and Europa Universalis isn't targeted at teens first and foremost, have I got news for you.
There is definitely a clash between the "heroes just like you in downtime"/"heroes just incredibly buff and awesome" approaches to adolescent power fantasy, though.
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