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[MrNyarlathotep]

they found other ways to enable the same mechanic which dont infringe on the pantent. That said, halo was still the first to do iirc, and it's pretty much a staple in most co-op games now. (though i think a large part of the patent refers to system link and net code for it. ie allowing 2 seperate people on 2 seperate consoles to control a shared vehicle)

[citation needed]

Because one player driving while another is shooting wasn't exactly a novel or patentable concept by the time Halo was released, even if it was not present in other FPSes at the time.

 

[Chinpoko_Master]

Gears of War had a bigger influence on third person shooters than Resident Evil 4 did. Resident Evil 4 is a much better game though.

 

[JNT]

[citation needed]

Because one player driving while another is shooting wasn't exactly a novel or patentable concept by the time Halo was released, even if it was not present in other FPSes at the time.

Only a specific solution to a problem can be patented. If someone finds another solution to the same problem then there is no infringement. But I gotta agree with you. Not particularly novel. That doesn't stop patents from being granted in practice though.

 

[MrNyarlathotep]

Only a specific solution to a problem can be patented. If someone finds another solution to the same problem then there is no infringement. But I gotta agree with you. Not particularly novel. That doesn't stop patents from being granted in practice though.

Game patents - where they actually exist - are actually far more broadly reaching than that, which is why I'm calling this out and asking for evidence that such a thing exists.

For example;
Driving games can't have the Crazy Taxi navigation arrow.
Games can't have minigames on loading screens thanks to the Ridge Racer Patent.
Games can't use the FFX levelling spheregrid thing.
Games can't have 2D characters go through a bank and turn upside down Sonic style.
Games can't have an object that gets bigger by absorbing other objects Katamari style.

 

[plufim]

XBOX- Halo

Changed fps on consoles

XBOX 360- Gears of War

Changes 3rd person shooters.

Do you think they will do it again with a new ip? And what possible studio will that be?

By applying logic:

The "XBOX 1080 Kickflip Airwalk" will revolutionize 4th person shooters.

 

[mr_nothin]

you know they could finally make a console mmo which changes that scene.

Planetside 2 has that covered

 

[JNT]

Game patents - where they actually exist - are actually far more broadly reaching than that, which is why I'm calling this out and asking for evidence that such a thing exists.

For example;
Driving games can't have the Crazy Taxi navigation arrow.
Games can't have minigames on loading screens thanks to the Ridge Racer Patent.
Games can't use the FFX levelling spheregrid thing.
Games can't have 2D characters go through a bank and turn upside down Sonic style.
Games can't have an object that gets bigger by absorbing other objects Katamari style.

I haven't read any of these patents, so I'll have to take your word for it for now. Theoretically though, patents are granted only for a particular solution to a particular problem. Maybe the patents in question are deliberately vaguely worded to cover much larger ground?

 

[Syphon Filter]

Gears of War had a bigger influence on third person shooters than Resident Evil 4 did. Resident Evil 4 is a much better game though.

Nah RE 4 ruined the series imo.

 

[RiZ III]

Even if gears changed 3rd person shooters (which it didn't), I don't see how you can credit it to MS. The credit would go to the designers at Epic.

 

[ChimpanzeeThat]

I just want more original IP for the new Xbox, i don't think they introduced enough this gen, whereas Sony introduced loads.

 

[BD1]

Xbox is going to try and change the definition of a game console. Xbox-As-A-Service. It will play the games we all know and love (?), but it will focus more on Subscription models, Live, Entertainment Options and being Master of the living room.

Will it change the industry? Who knows!

 

[HiredN00bs]

Halo changed nothing

Yeah man, when Halo came out there were tons of other console shooters with action-oriented gameplay with things like grenades and melee on primary buttons, LAN support, and multi-faceted aim-assist systems designed for dual analog controllers.

 

[Canis lupus]

How does Microsoft get credit for the work of Epic Games.

 

[highrider]

It's a bummer when halo doesn't get the love. It was innovative.

 

[Evolution_1ne]

Yeah man, when Halo came out there were tons of other console shooters with action-oriented gameplay with things like grenades and melee on primary buttons, LAN support, and multi-faceted aim-assist systems designed for dual analog controllers.

no there weren't, and there weren't many after either so.... your point?

 

[onQ123]

XBOX- Halo

Changed fps on consoles

 

[REMEMBER CITADEL]

How does Microsoft get credit for the work of Epic Games.

Probably the same way Sony gets the credit for work of Quantic Dream, Insomniac or Media Molecule, Evolution and Sucker Punch while they were still independent.

 

[PairOfFilthySocks]

no there weren't, and there weren't many after either so.... your point?

Your memory may be failing you. Until CoD 4 came along, Halo was the general blueprint for most shooters that released after it.

 

[gaming_noob]

Your memory may be failing you. Until CoD 4 came along, Halo was the general blueprint for most shooters that released after it.

No point reasoning with someone who believes Microsoft is all about Kinect and the only reason they've sold 70 Million consoles was because they overshipped.

 

[AdventureRacing]

Halo completely changed the way FPS's were played on consoles and it was the beginning of the rise of FPS's on consoles (which COD later cemented). You can see halos influence in so many games and this simply isn't true of goldeneye at all.

Halo is one of the most influential games ever released (influential not innovative before i get jumped on) and in a lot of ways i think its impact has been understated alot. I know it isn't the biggest seller on consoles but i think it has had a huge impact on the direction gaming has taken this gen.

 

[Evolution_1ne]

Your memory may be failing you. Until CoD 4 came along, Halo was the general blueprint for most shooters that released after it.

like what?

 

[border]

Halo completely changed the way FPS's were played on consoles and it was the beginning of the rise of FPS's on consoles (which COD later cemented). You can see halos influence in so many games and this simply isn't true of goldeneye at all.

Nonsense - you forget that Goldeneye was released in 1997. Before Quake 2 or even Half-Life.

When it came out, the industry was awash with tiresome Doom clones. There was a constant flow of corridor shoot-em-ups full of monster closets, where progression was defined as killing everything in sight while you collected the red key for the red door, then the green key for the green door, and on and on.

Goldeneye had levels that went beyond endless claustrophobic corridors, with more organic and natural objectives. It rewarded stealth and strategy more than it rewarded run-and-gun. After GE64, games veered more towards "open-ended" levels, more towards stealth over constant murder, and more towards mission objectives that make sense in the context of the game narrative. You can pretty directly see Goldeneye's influence on games like No One Lives Forever, Thief, Metal Gear Solid, etc.

They also perfectly nailed the implementation of a sniper scope, and of course they were the ultimate gold standard in console multiplayer shooters for nearly half a decade.

 

[les papillons sexuels]

Nonsense - you forget that Goldeneye was released in 1997. Before Quake 2 or even Half-Life.

When it came out, the industry was awash with tiresome Doom clones. There was a constant flow of corridor shoot-em-ups full of monster closets, where progression was defined as killing everything in sight while you collected the red key for the red door, then the green key for the green door, and on and on.

Goldeneye had levels that went beyond endless claustrophobic corridors, with more organic and natural objectives. It rewarded stealth and strategy more than it rewarded run-and-gun. After GE64, games veered more towards "open-ended" levels, more towards stealth over constant murder, and more towards mission objectives that make sense in the context of the game narrative. You can pretty directly see Goldeneye's influence on games like No One Lives Forever, Thief, Metal Gear Solid, etc.

They also perfectly nailed the implementation of a sniper scope, and of course they were the ultimate gold standard in console multiplayer shooters for nearly half a decade.

and you forget that marathon was released on consoles well before goldeneye.

[citation needed]

Because one player driving while another is shooting wasn't exactly a novel or patentable concept by the time Halo was released, even if it was not present in other FPSes at the time.

regardless the netcode to do such a thing never existed until halo. That feature was a huge stepping stone for many other games we have today.

 

[kuroshiki]

Right now MS is fighting on multiple front. I don't think they can focus on Xbox franchise like they used to.

 

[Pre]

OP sure is begging the question.

And people talking up games like Halo as truly revolutionary aren't familiar with PC games at the time. Halo was somewhat groundbreaking for a console game, but that's it.

 

[HiredN00bs]

no there weren't, and there weren't many after either so.... your point?

It was sarcasm and yes there were. Pick any console fps post-Combat Evolved and you're likely to find some element it introduced.

 

[border]

and you forget that marathon was released on consoles well before goldeneye.

It's kind of a stretch to say that Marathon was released on consoles, when it only got a port to the Apple Pippin.....a $600 console that went completely unnoticed, and probably wouldn't even be a footnote in a book on the history of consoles.

And from what I've seen of Marathon, it still looks to be very corridor focused. The hallways often don't appear to be more than a few feet wide -- even more claustrophobic than Doom. I haven't played it, but I can't fairly speak about whether progression and mission objectives and stealth were really beyond that of a Doom clone. But I think it's fair to say that Goldeneye's enduring, massive success had more of an influence on game design than a Mac port on a console that was immediately dead in the water.

 

[BD1]

Right now MS is fighting on multiple front. I don't think they can focus on Xbox franchise like they used to.

I agree with you. They're out of the games business, and into the living room business.

The real question is rather a "game console" has a place in the living room anymore. I think Microsoft doesn't think so. I certainly have no clue how it'll shake out.

 

[AdventureRacing]

But I think it's fair to say that Goldeneye's enduring, massive success had more of an influence on game design than a Mac port on a console that was immediately dead in the water.

Goldeneye did sell more than halo but that doesn't mean it had more influence on game design and it most certainly didn't have nearly the same impact on console FPS's. What does the game originally being intended for macs have to do with anything? The only thing that matters is the final product.

I also don't see how the success or lack of success achieved by the xbox is relevant at all.

Also no i don't think it's a fair assumption to make and i completely disagree with you.

 

[-ImaginaryInsider]

I agree with you. They're out of the games business, and into the living room business.

The real question is rather a "game console" has a place in the living room anymore. I think Microsoft doesn't think so. I certainly have no clue how it'll shake out.

I don't know how any you guys can use the actions of MS at the tail-end of a 7 year long console generation to extrapolate that.

Everything is blurring, pcs, phones, tablets... why should a console be any different?

 

[les papillons sexuels]

It's kind of a stretch to say that Marathon was released on consoles, when it only got a port to the Apple Pippin.....a $600 console that went completely unnoticed, and probably wouldn't even be a footnote in a book on the history of consoles.

And from what I've seen of Marathon, it still looks to be very corridor focused. The hallways often don't appear to be more than a few feet wide -- even more claustrophobic than Doom. I haven't played it, but I can't fairly speak about whether progression and mission objectives and stealth were really beyond that of a Doom clone. But I think it's fair to say that Goldeneye's enduring, massive success had more of an influence on game design than a Mac port on a console that was immediately dead in the water.

still the first objective based shooter.

 

[border]

Goldeneye did sell more than halo but that doesn't mean it had more influence on game design and it most certainly didn't have nearly the same impact on console FPS's.

I not referring to Super Marathon when I referred to a "Mac port on a console that was dead in the water". Not Halo.

That said, of course commercial success has an influence on game design. If Gears or Halo had flopped, why would anyone try to imitate them? Why would a publisher want to greenlight games modeled after them?

The point isn't that Super Marathon was a port, but just that it was a game that received very little critical or commercial attention, on an uber-expensive console that received very little critical or commercial attention. Prior to the post I was responding to, I didn't even know it existed. I barely even remembered that the Pippin existed.

I think it's doubtful that publishers and game designers saw Super Marathon at all. It's even more doubtful that they saw it and thought, "Let's do something more like that!".....and that the resultant products were No One Lives Forever, Thief, Metal Gear Solid, Half-Life, etc.

I'm not going to argue whether Halo or Goldeneye was "more influential", it's silly to say that Goldeneye's influence isn't very easily observable. The problem is that you just need to understand the FPS market of 1997 to really understand the important things it did.

 

[border]

still the first objective based shooter.

In this case though, it's more a question of influence than "Who did it first?" There's no way to prove that the developers didn't see Marathon/Super Marathon and gain inspiration from it. But given Marathon's relatively obscure place in the market and modest sales it doesn't seem incredibly likely.

Beyond the mission objectives, Goldeneye still does a number of things that differentiate it from Marathon. Level design, sniper scopes, vehicles, location-based damage, etc. Marathon is a notable stepping stone, but I don't consider it the leap that Goldeneye was. More of a thoughtful refinement of the Doom formula.

 

[les papillons sexuels]

In this case though, it's more a question of influence than "Who did it first?" There's no way to prove that the developers didn't see Marathon/Super Marathon and gain inspiration from it. But given Marathon's relatively obscure place in the market and modest sales it doesn't seem incredibly likely.

Beyond the mission objectives, Goldeneye still does a number of things that differentiate it from Marathon. Level design, sniper scopes, vehicles, location-based damage, etc. Marathon is a notable stepping stone, but I don't consider it the leap that Goldeneye was. More of a thoughtful refinement of the Doom formula.

Marathon had location based damage, also in marathon 2 you had civilians with weapons which would only attack you when attack, leading to more open sandbox like design, same with it's mission structure. Marathon also had dual wielding, and had many popular multiplayer gametypes like tag, king of the hill, etc.

I'm not disagreeing with you, but goldeneye gets a bunch of the same praise that halo has, but halo often gets a lot more scrutiny for popularizing as opposed to innovating when goldeneye is in the exact same boat.

 

[BD1]

I don't know how any you guys can use the actions of MS at the tail-end of a 7 year long console generation to extrapolate that.

Everything is blurring, pcs, phones, tablets... why should a console be any different?

Not sure what you're saying here. Of course everything is blurring. My opinion is that Microsoft, based on a convergence of Windows devices, is going to push Xbox as a living room multi media player that connects to a Windows ecosystem, more than a game console. I could be wrong, though.

My question is if that is the key to success for a platform holder or if Nintendo, Sony or another manufacturer will usurp them next gen. There are so many "mass market" questions for next gen consoles that go beyond just gaming.

 

[border]

I'm not disagreeing with you, but goldeneye gets a bunch of the same praise that halo has, but halo often gets a lot more scrutiny for popularizing as opposed to innovating when goldeneye is in the exact same boat.

Fanboys will make ridiculous claims about Halo because it's still Microsoft's baby, and still a huge weapon in the CONSOLE WARZ. Nintendo lost Goldeneye (and Rare) long ago, so even Nintendo fanboys don't have as much of an emotional investment in claiming that it's some amazing innovator. But yes, both games built on the innovations of lesser-noticed predecessors....but their execution was much better than the execution of predecessors.

I mostly give credit to Goldeneye for level design -- creating spaces that actually feel like real-world places. There's a level that is on a cruise boat, and traversing it you actually feel like you are on a boat. When you go to a snowy Soviet military outpost, it actually seems like a remote army base. Doom and most of the pseudo-3D games on the Build Engine just feel like an endless series of interconnected rooms and hallways. Titles like Duke3D and Rise of the Triad tried to give you more open spaces, but those still just seemed very game-like.....not recreations of the real world. And while the stealth was pretty limited to shooting out security cameras or sometimes using melee/silenced weapons I thought the shift towards stealth was pretty significant and interesting at the time.

 

[Tdog987]

No

 

[-ImaginaryInsider]

Not sure what you're saying here. Of course everything is blurring. My opinion is that Microsoft, based on a convergence of Windows devices, is going to push Xbox as a living room multi media player that connects to a Windows ecosystem, more than a game console. I could be wrong, though.

My question is if that is the key to success for a platform holder or if Nintendo, Sony or another manufacturer will usurp them next gen. There are so many "mass market" questions for next gen consoles that go beyond just gaming.

I am disagreeing with seeing how they are "getting out of the console business" anymore now than than they did with the 360. My point was that the vast majority of proof of them abandoning gaming has largely stemmed from the last two years of an unusually long generation.

I think both MS and Sony see their boxes as entertainment hubs, and both will continue to use gaming as a major component of the entertainment they offer.

 

[MrNyarlathotep]

regardless the netcode to do such a thing never existed until halo. That feature was a huge stepping stone for many other games we have today.

Thats a pretty major back peddle from your initial statement, that Halo invented co-op driving and shooting and patented it.

And saying Marathon is influential as a console FPS where Goldeneye was not, pretty clearly stakes your flag of allegiance as not exactly objective in your analysis here.

 

[PairOfFilthySocks]

like what?

Do I really have to list them all? Or do you think the massive influx of shooters on the previous generation with recharging health, limited weapon capacity, unique button for melee/grenade, etc. was just a result of divine inspiration on the part of devs around the world?

 

[Rolf NB]

They will put a controller on the screen. Xbox fans will say they "popularized" it, and that this is all that matters in the end.

 

[King_Moc]

they found other ways to enable the same mechanic which dont infringe on the pantent. That said, halo was still the first to do iirc, and it's pretty much a staple in most co-op games now. (though i think a large part of the patent refers to system link and net code for it. ie allowing 2 seperate people on 2 seperate consoles to control a shared vehicle)

Operation flashpoint was released about 6 months earlier and does this, so i don't see how they could patent it.

 

[CadetMahoney]

It's always sad to see "gamers" not giving credit where it's due to a game because it's on a console they dislike.

Sums up the thread perfectly. Also the waggle motion bashing was hilarious until someone else made their move on the craze.

 

[REMEMBER CITADEL]

And people talking up games like Halo as truly revolutionary aren't familiar with PC games at the time. Halo was somewhat groundbreaking for a console game, but that's it.

That's not true at all. While a part of Halo's historical significance definitely lies in bringing (or popularizing) certain concepts on consoles, it was a rather unique game in the general gaming space. At the time I was exclusively a PC gamer, and somewhat of an FPS fan. I was well acquainted with all the biggest titles in the genre, and with plenty of the more obscure ones as well. While there were plenty of great FPS games on the PC - some better than Halo (Half-Life, duh), some worse - nothing, and I mean nothing played quite like it. It was a special game, and groundbreaking in many ways, some more subtle than others.

Sums up the thread perfectly.

Yup. And I'd say it's not just sad, it's stomach-turning.

 

[Metalmurphy]

Sums up the thread perfectly. Also the waggle motion bashing was hilarious until someone else made their move on the craze.

What are you talking about? The waggle bashing continued even after the move and Kinect. Stop trying to see bias where it doesn't exist.

Probably the same way Sony gets the credit for work of Quantic Dream, Insomniac or Media Molecule, Evolution and Sucker Punch while they were still independent.

Nope.

 

[Metalmurphy]

*dp*

 

[REMEMBER CITADEL]

Nope.

Double standards, but I'm not surprised.

 

[Metalmurphy]

Double standards, but I'm not surprised.

What double standards? Sony bought those 3 studios.


Microsoft never bought epic.

 

[REMEMBER CITADEL]

What double standards? Sony bought those studios.

Did you not read the full sentence you quoted? I said while they were still independent. For instance, Sony was often praised for LittleBigPlanet (rightfully so, just like it makes perfect sense to praise Microsoft for helping shape Gears of War into what it eventually became) even before Media Molecule was owned by them. It was a game made by an independent company.

 

[Metalmurphy]

Did you not read the full sentence you quoted? I said while they were still independent. For instance, Sony was often praised for LittleBigPlanet (rightfully so, just like it makes perfect sense to praise Microsoft for helping shape Gears of War into what it eventually became) even before Media Molecule was owned by them. It was a game made by an independent company.

Well, you adding studios that Sony never actually owned made me seem you were trying to say something else.