Support NeoGAF

[kiphalfton]

Maybe not all these things below are in AC games, but nevertheless open world games seem to stick pretty closely to the following template:

- Crafting
- Skill tree
- Batman Detective Mode
- Obscured world map
- Recycled guard posts/structures/environments
- Recycled side quests you do dozens of times
- Pointless collectibles

Can't believe this model has been sustainable as long as it has, as each game feels the same from one to the next (besides the theme).

 

[Havoc2049]

Play Sea of Thieves and Grounded. They are open world and aren't like Assassins Creed at all. There is also very little dumbed down modern hand holding and you need to figure out how to accomplish tasks on your own, which leads to a great sense of accomplishment. Sea of Thieves doesn't even have quest markers.

 

[BennyBlanco]

I expect a small handful of Elden Ring inspired open world games but no. Ass Creed formula has been focus tested to death and it still sells.

 

[Shut0wen]

Maybe not all these things below are in AC games, but nevertheless open world games seem to stick pretty closely to the following template:

- Crafting
- Skill tree
- Batman Detective Mode
- Obscured world map
- Recycled guard posts/structures/environments
- Recycled side quests you do dozens of times
- Pointless collectibles

Can't believe this model has been sustainable as long as it has, as each game feels the same from one to the next (besides the theme).

Not gunna lie but assassins creed obyssey is probably one of the best free roam games out in the last 10 years imo and i hate ac as a franchise, id say witcher 3 but the combat is just shit BUT i do hope games stop following the free roam trend, i dont mind free roam games but most of them are just gull with to much filler

 

[01011001]

they still sell, and if you mask them right they even get praised to high heavens even tho they aren't any better than the average ubi game, see Horizon

 

[Gaiff]

I expect a small handful of Elden Ring inspired open world games but no. Ass Creed formula has been focus tested to death and it still sells.

Elden Ring didn't do anything special though. Its open-world is pretty bog standard in terms of design. What makes it great is the lore, art, and landscapes as well as the fact that you never know what're you going to run into and can get killed at the drop of a hat. This makes exploring areas tense and rewarding but this is mostly due to the core gameplay of the Soulsborne series more than the open-world nature of Elden Ring. The older games offer the same things except that they aren't open-world.

Good luck replicating Elden Ring if your combat isn't up to snuff.

 

[Moneal]

Elden Ring didn't do anything special though. Its open-world is pretty bog standard in terms of design. What makes it great is the lore, art, and landscapes as well as the fact that you never know what're you going to run into and can get killed at the drop of a hat. This makes exploring areas tense and rewarding but this is mostly due to the core gameplay of the Soulsborne series more than the open-world nature of Elden Ring. The older games offer the same things except that they aren't open-world.

Good luck replicating Elden Ring if your combat isn't up to snuff.

I would say the open world of elden ring uses the Assassin's Creed model without the UI items.

 

[BossLackey]

Elden Ring didn't do anything special though. Its open-world is pretty bog standard in terms of design. What makes it great is the lore, art, and landscapes as well as the fact that you never know what're you going to run into and can get killed at the drop of a hat.

I disagree. The Village of the Albinaurics that exists inside a mountain. Climbing cliffsides for what feels like ages before fighting terrifying harpies. Cresting a green hill and seeing the sun shine down on a massive castle you didn't know was there (and you just know is going to be it's own adventure). Traversing deadly miasma spewing bogs. I mean, the list is endless.

If Elden Ring does "nothing special" in it's open world design, then what does?!

 

[Punished Miku]

Absolutely not.

 

[GymWolf]

Never cared about what formula they use.

I only care about good traversal, good combat, rewarding exploration and a lot of content.

 

[Games of Today]

I don't think Far Cry 2 will ever be topped. Sure the gameplay can be repetitive especially when attacking guard posts but that's the whole reason I'm playing the game. While the run ins with the guards are repetitive, something new seems to happen almost every time because the game is based around it's physics engine, similar to how GTA IV which will never get old either.

 

[mrmustard]

Indies and AA yes. Expensive AAAs No. The formula works and devs want to play it safe when big budgets are involved.

 

[worldwithpyramids]

Elden Ring didn't do anything special though. Its open-world is pretty bog standard in terms of design. What makes it great is the lore, art, and landscapes as well as the fact that you never know what're you going to run into and can get killed at the drop of a hat. This makes exploring areas tense and rewarding but this is mostly due to the core gameplay of the Soulsborne series more than the open-world nature of Elden Ring. The older games offer the same things except that they aren't open-world.

Good luck replicating Elden Ring if your combat isn't up to snuff.

This isn't true at all and can be demonstrated quite easily by taking any of these Ubisoft style open worlds and removing their icons from the map. It will not suddenly feel like Elden Ring or BoTW. The entire world has to be designed around the fact that exploration will be determined by the player's own intuition and vision.

You can see this in Hogwarts Legacy. Running around that world without looking at the map feels terrible. You have no sense of place or direction. The world is not designed to have visual markers that distinguish areas. There's so much level design that goes on in Elden Ring that is constantly enticing and directing the player while making it seem like a natural discovery while also keeping the player oriented in the world at large. It's a massive undertaking and the only comparable game is BoTW.

 

[diffusionx]

I really liked LA Noire because it was so different from usual open world games. I think the big issue is the same one that existed for decades, like after Sonic came out there was a glut of zany animal mascot platformers with an attitude. This stuff is expensive and you want to make stuff that people are familiar with.

 

[Moneal]

Never cared about what formula they use.

I only care about good traversal, good combat, rewarding exploration and a lot of content.

I watched a video yesterday on why some open world games feel good and others feel bad. It basically boiled down to flow of discovery. If it takes too long to discover a new thing to interact with the world feels empty. If it is too short the world feels overwhelming and fake. I think that cdpr did a focus test on this and found that 15 to 45 seconds was the optimal window.

 

[Gaiff]

I disagree. The Village of the Albinaurics that exists inside a mountain. Climbing cliffsides for what feels like ages before fighting terrifying harpies. Cresting a green hill and seeing the sun shine down on a massive castle you didn't know was there (and you just know is going to be it's own adventure). Traversing deadly miasma spewing bogs. I mean, the list is endless.

If Elden Ring does "nothing special" in it's open world design, then what does?!

Yeah so like I said, remove tension and what remains? If those harpies aren't deadly and the miasma cannot kill you, is the exploration still as exciting?

This isn't true at all and can be demonstrated quite easily by taking any of these Ubisoft style open worlds and removing their icons from the map. It will not suddenly feel like Elden Ring or BoTW. The entire world has to be designed around the fact that exploration will be determined by the player's own intuition and vision.

You can see this in Hogwarts Legacy. Running around that world without looking at the map feels terrible. You have no sense of place or direction. The world is not designed to have visual markers that distinguish areas. There's so much level design that goes on in Elden Ring that is constantly enticing and directing the player while making it seem like a natural discovery while also keeping the player oriented in the world at large. It's a massive undertaking and the only comparable game is BoTW.

Because the exploration won't be suddenly tense and rewarding which I touched upon already. If Ubisoft manages to nail combat and makes a challenging and brutal world, they could get reasonably close to what Elden Ring offers but that's easier said than done. They also need to nail the landscape and art. And orienting the player by pointing to them where they should go with the sites of grace? Come on.

Also, not sure what you mean with BOTW but it has towers that reveal the map exactly like Ubisoft games. Elden Ring also has maps that reveals the area. Ubisoft however, hasn't figured out what landmarks are it seems so navigating their world is a pain without a map because everything kinda looks samey.

 

[BossLackey]

Yeah so like I said, remove tension and what remains? If those harpies aren't deadly and the miasma cannot kill you, is the exploration still as exciting?

That is an absolutely absurd argument. You could say that about literally any game in existence. It's reductive and doesn't make sense. But even then, I could still say that yes, removing the enemies would still make the level design good. Elden Ring has incredible landscapes and structures throughout that are both amazing to look at as well as offer interesting places to explore and fight in.

Is a race track poorly designed if it's not as fun to traverse on foot? huh!?

Level design must exist within context. That's literally the entire point. They're games.

Level design and enemy/encounter design are two halves of the same whole in this context. They're still both amazing on their own though.

 

[Gaiff]

That is an absolutely absurd argument. You could say that about literally any game in existence. It's reductive and doesn't make sense.

It makes perfect sense because a huge part of making exploration thrilling is the fact that it can be and should be dangerous. From Software have done that for over a decade even in their non open-world games. The fact that you know any monster lurking around a dark corner can kill you makes exploring much more tense.

But even then, I could still say that yes, removing the enemies would still make the level design good. Elden Ring has incredible landscapes and structures throughout that are both amazing to look at as well as offer interesting places to explore and fight in.

And pretty much every one of these places are legacy dungeons which have nothing to do with the fact that Elden Ring is open-world or not. Raya Lucaria, Stormveil, Leyndell, etc, all these locations are top-tier level design wise but you could transport them into any Souls game and they'd remain just as good.

Is a race track poorly designed if it's not as fun to traverse on foot? huh!?

Level design must exist within context. That's literally the entire point. They're games.

Level design and enemy/encounter design are two halves of the same whole in this context. They're still both amazing on their own though.

See above. The point is that as far as open-world design goes, Elden Ring is pretty standard and didn't break any new grounds or innovate whatsoever. They didn't introduce some kind of hyper emergent world or revolutionize traversal. They took what they were great at and integrated it into an open-world game. The best parts of Elden Ring are by and large things that are completely independent from the open-world, bosses, dungeons, combat, etc. Elden Ring wouldn't be a much worse game if it was semi open-world like Dark Souls or even more linear like Dark Souls III.

 

[BossLackey]

It makes perfect sense because a huge part of making exploration thrilling is the fact that it can be and should be dangerous. From Software have done that for over a decade even in their non open-world games. The fact that you know any monster lurking around a dark corner can kill you makes exploring much more tense.

I'm not being obtuse, I legitimately don't understand what point you're trying to make here.

And pretty much every one of these places are legacy dungeons which have nothing to do with the fact that Elden Ring is open-world or not. Raya Lucaria, Stormveil, Leyndell, etc, all these locations are top-tier level design wise but you could transport them into any Souls game and they'd remain just as good.

Nope. There are plenty of places that could exist in past Souls games, but most of those could already be called open world. Is Dark Souls 1 not a all-connect game with real layout? It's just very vertical (which makes it cooler IMO). Open world to you sounds like "must be a big flat plane". And if that's the case, what exactly could satisfy your personal criteria for "good open world design"? Not to mention, massive areas like Caelid? It's not just "a castle" or something that could be plopped down. There are tons of examples like that in Elden Ring.

See above. The point is that as far as open-world design goes, Elden Ring is pretty standard and didn't break any new grounds or innovate whatsoever. They didn't introduce some kind of hyper emergent world or revolutionize traversal. They took what they were great at and integrated it into an open-world game. The best parts of Elden Ring are by and large things that are completely independent from the open-world, bosses, dungeons, combat, etc. Elden Ring wouldn't be a much worse game if it was semi open-world like Dark Souls or even more linear like Dark Souls III.

I don't think you know what even your own definition of "good open world design" is. Open world is a bullshit term anyway. It's reminiscent of (as I said above) big flat surface area where the full game world is connected.

So I ask you again. If Elden Ring isn't special where it comes to open world, then please provide just 1 example of a game that exceeds it using your undefined criteria. I'm not saying Elden Ring has the best open world design of all time. But that's mostly because such a distinction is next to useless. At the end of the day, Elden Ring is one of the greatest games I've ever played and at least part of that is due to the feeling of this massive fever dream of a continent you're plopped down in.

 

[Gaiff]

I'm not being obtuse, I legitimately don't understand what point you're trying to make here.

The point I'm trying to make is that a huge portion of what makes Elden Ring's exploration so great is the thrill of it. There is a sense of dread and imminent danger just like in their other games but you're free to go wherever you please. When you step inside a cavern, you don't know what enemies lie inside. When you opened that trap chest in Limgrave and got transported to Sellia Crystal Tunnel in Caelid, you went WTF and when you started getting wrecked by enemies 50 levels higher than you, you remembered it. The fact that From games are notoriously difficult makes the exploration that much better. If you remove that, the impact of delving into unknown territory would be significantly lessened but this is independent of the game being open-world.

Nope. There are plenty of places that could exist in past Souls games, but most of those could already be called open world. Is Dark Souls 1 not a all-connect game with real layout? It's just very vertical (which makes it cooler IMO). Open world to you sounds like "must be a big flat plane". And if that's the case, what exactly could satisfy your personal criteria for "good open world design"? Not to mention, massive areas like Caelid? It's not just "a castle" or something that could be plopped down. There are tons of examples like that in Elden Ring.

I don't think you know what even your own definition of "good open world design" is. Open world is a bullshit term anyway. It's reminiscent of (as I said above) big flat surface area where the full game world is connected.

So I ask you again. If Elden Ring isn't special where it comes to open world, then please provide just 1 example of a game that exceeds it using your undefined criteria. I'm not saying Elden Ring has the best open world design of all time. But that's mostly because such a distinction is next to useless. At the end of the day, Elden Ring is one of the greatest games I've ever played and at least part of that is due to the feeling of this massive fever dream of a content you're plopped down in.

BOTW is an excellent case of open-world design because it does make something of its open world. You have mechanics like thunder, rain, and other weather effects. You have tools to interact with the world and exploit the physics, you have events based on weather conditions and time of day, etc. What BOTW does with the open world couldn't work within the traditional Zelda framework which banks on rigid levels and pre-determined conditions with a somewhat linear approach. Put BOTW in a non-open world, half the shit isn't nearly as interesting because then you'd be restricted to using your items just to solve the usual puzzles like you do in every Zelda. BOTW exploits its open-world. Elden Ring doesn't really or at least not in a way that's noteworthy.

Take out the open world of Elden Ring and keep only the legacy dungeons, the game is still amazing. Take out the open world of BOTW and I'm not even sure what you end up with. Elden Ring took what already worked and added it to an open world. BOTW on the other hand reinvented itself thanks (or some would say because) of to the open world. BOTW is more sandboxish. Elden Ring is more traditional.

 

[BossLackey]

The point I'm trying to make is that a huge portion of what makes Elden Ring's exploration so great is the thrill of it. There is a sense of dread and imminent danger just like in their other games but you're free to go wherever you please. When you step inside a cavern, you don't know what enemies lie inside. When you opened that trap chest in Limgrave and got transported to Sellia Crystal Tunnel in Caelid, you went WTF and when you started getting wrecked by enemies 50 levels higher than you, you remembered it. The fact that From games are notoriously difficult makes the exploration that much better. If you remove that, the impact of delving into unknown territory would be significantly lessened but this is independent of the game being open-world.

BOTW is an excellent case of open-world design because it does make something of its open world. You have mechanics like thunder, rain, and other weather effects. You have tools to interact with the world and exploit the physics, you have events based on weather conditions and time of day, etc. What BOTW does with the open world couldn't work within the traditional Zelda framework which banks on rigid levels and pre-determined conditions with a somewhat linear approach. Put BOTW in a non-open world, half the shit isn't nearly as interesting because then you'd be restricted to using your items just to solve the usual puzzles like you do in every Zelda. BOTW exploits its open-world. Elden Ring doesn't really or at least not in a way that's noteworthy.

Take out the open world of Elden Ring and keep only the legacy dungeons, the game is still amazing. Take out the open world of BOTW and I'm not even sure what you end up with. Elden Ring took what already worked and added it to an open world. BOTW on the other hand reinvented itself thanks (or some would say because) of to the open world. BOTW is more sandboxish. Elden Ring is more traditional.

I suppose that's fair. That's a good example. I agree that BOTW's actual mechanics surrounding the open world are the best there is. You're right in that they really do take advantage of the open world nature of the game. However, I will say that while that's the case, BOTW had a TON of recycled content. They had a fantastic 10 hours and then it was copy and pasted multiple times. That's my only gripe with the game. Still, that doesn't take away from the open world MECHANICS, but I'm far from the only person to complain about that. They had amazing open world mechanics, but not enough content. Elden Ring had a ton of amazing content, but not nearly as good open world mechanics as BOTW.

 

[GymWolf]

I watched a video yesterday on why some open world games feel good and others feel bad. It basically boiled down to flow of discovery. If it takes too long to discover a new thing to interact with the world feels empty. If it is too short the world feels overwhelming and fake. I think that cdpr did a focus test on this and found that 15 to 45 seconds was the optimal window.

That's a very scientific approach that doens't applly to all type of gamers i think.

 

[hemo memo]

To be honest a tower revealing points of interests in the map was revolutionary. No wonder it is done in most open world games and in the best of them like BotW.

 

[Gaiff]

I suppose that's fair. That's a good example. I agree that BOTW's actual mechanics surrounding the open world are the best there is. You're right in that they really do take advantage of the open world nature of the game. However, I will say that while that's the case, BOTW had a TON of recycled content. They had a fantastic 10 hours and then it was copy and pasted multiple times. That's my only gripe with the game. Still, that doesn't take away from the open world MECHANICS, but I'm far from the only person to complain about that. They had amazing open world mechanics, but not enough content. Elden Ring had a ton of amazing content, but not nearly as good open world mechanics as BOTW.

Yeah, these are pretty much my thoughts. Collecting Korok seeds became old after 10 hours. I think something combining the mechanics of BOTW, the attention to detail and tech of RDR2, and the combat/exploration of Elden Ring would be the perfect open-world game but that shit ain't never happening, but one can dream.

 

[BossLackey]

Yeah, these are pretty much my thoughts. Collecting Korok seeds became old after 10 hours. I think something combining the mechanics of BOTW, the attention to detail and tech of RDR2, and the combat/exploration of Elden Ring would be the perfect open-world game but that shit ain't never happening, but one can dream.

Yeah that would be quite the insane game.

 

[kiphalfton]

I suppose that's fair. That's a good example. I agree that BOTW's actual mechanics surrounding the open world are the best there is. You're right in that they really do take advantage of the open world nature of the game. However, I will say that while that's the case, BOTW had a TON of recycled content. They had a fantastic 10 hours and then it was copy and pasted multiple times. That's my only gripe with the game. Still, that doesn't take away from the open world MECHANICS, but I'm far from the only person to complain about that. They had amazing open world mechanics, but not enough content. Elden Ring had a ton of amazing content, but not nearly as good open world mechanics as BOTW.

Each new encounter or discovery in BOTW really is something.

Like you said though, it gets old quick when you realize just how much stuff is recycled. From enemies, mini bosses, horse stables, the giant skulls scattered about that the little goblins hang out at, etc. Which wasn't necessarily an issue in older Zelda games (yes they had far smaller worlds, but they felt more distinct apart from maybe wind waker and the islands).

And that's a problem with pretty much every open world game, is the reliance on recycled content. It is leaned on way too heavily. If foliage is reused to some extent whatever, but there is no reason why rock formations, buildings, etc. should be literal copy/pasted more than a handful of times let alone dozens of times.

 

[Flabagast]

Go indie OP.

Pathologic 2 for example is way better than 95% of rotten AAA open worlds

 

[Little Chicken]

I'd like the think that Elden Ring is currently inspiring a lot of developers to create new approaches to open world games.

 

[Eddie-Griffin]

I was under the impression most open-world games were RPGS, and played nothing like AC.

AC has some action-adventure rip-offs, but most of the stuff you listed didn't come from AC.

GTA itself took and streamlined some elements that AC also showed could work and several Action-Adventure games used the same template, but AC isn't the source.

 

[Fbh]

No. Ubisoft formula is here to stay.
When Breath of the Wild blew up I thought a lot of devs would take notice and we'd see a shift in open world design. Instead everyone just made Ubisoft open world games....with a glider.
I expect the same will happen with Elden Ring, some games will take some surface level elements and bring them over to the UBisoft formula, while ignoring why the world truly was so great.

 

[rolandss]

A lot of them do it better than AC games imo. Ghost of Tsushima is a prime example. I enjoyed that far more than any recent AC game.

 

[ReBurn]

Not in the AAA space, no. Too risky to try new things.

 

[Tal Shiar Agent]

I expect a small handful of Elden Ring inspired open world games but no. Ass Creed formula has been focus tested to death and it still sells.

Elden Ring didn't do anything that Morrowind didn't.

 

[KungFucius]

How is AC not a ripoff of Oblivion or GTA3? Now they even make it more RPG like Oblivion and let you steal boats like GTA. The patterns/ gameplay loops are only slightly different. At the higher level they just are games with several types of samey things you have strewn about an open world. The Map revealing thing was innovative for the time and only the first time as a replacement for having only fog that covers the map until you traverse a region.

 

[Gp1]

Considering that the last 3 Assassin's Creed are copies of the Witcher 3 minus the great quests/writing, then probably when CDPR give us Witcher 4.

 

[brian0057]

I'm still waiting for them to stop being Skyrim and Witcher 3 ripoffs.
Once again, I'm here to remind you all that open world games peaked when Daggerfall came out.

 

[phant0m]

Hogwarts Legacy actually avoided falling into many of these traps.

• There are no "towers" to reveal map
• While is map is "obscured", once you get through the intro you can free explore the entire thing and it's revealed w/ all activities as you go
• All the "grindy" collectibles have a gameplay purpose (merlin trials = more inventory, moon statues = lock picking, guide challenges, etc)
• For all the actual main & story quests (not activities) I haven't really seen anything repeated

That said, there is crafting, a skill tree, and quasi-batman mode (revelio)

Most importantly to me, the map isn't fucking huge for the sake of being fucking huge. As someone burned out on AC, Far Cry, and Horizon FW I found HL to be very engaging and fun.

 

[ZehDon]

I expect a small handful of Elden Ring inspired open world games but no. Ass Creed formula has been focus tested to death and it still sells.

Yeah, when I saw Naughty Dog talking about taking inspiration from Elden Ring, I realised we're gonna get a wave of immitators.