ShockingAlberto
Member
The major problem with Smash discussion is that some Smash fans are actually kind of terrible people.
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Do you think Sakurai could (or should) break roster parity for Smash DLC?
- Thread starter Neiteio
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Coffee Dog
Banned
It doesn't matter that much, honestly. We lost Ice Climbers, yeah, but we can still do wacky shit like Shulk and Rosalina, so I'm fine. I can understand not wanting to exclude the highest selling version.
I agree. They lost their value to humanity upon preferring a fat crocodile king to [insert preferred character here].
foxuzamaki
Doesn't read OPs, especially not his own
Its the console version thats being highlighted to this day shockingalberto, its most likely the console version that will get continuous ever green sells because of its current status on the market.
Roster parity is stupid. The game has different stages and modes. Oh but characters have to be the same! Interestingly enough, I bought two copies of the 3ds version. Not because it was oh so good. But because my fucking 3ds broke the day it came out. And Nintendo won't just simply refund your money. As a human adult I feel incredibly gimped on the 3ds. Smash on that thing does not work for me at all.
Console is where it's at. No one in my circle touches the 3ds version at all.
Console is where it's at. No one in my circle touches the 3ds version at all.
8-Player Smash on the Wii U needs to be able to handle 8 ICs which is basically 16 characters without any FPS drops. Doubt it could when they already had to cut hazards from certain stages just to make them stable for 8-player Smash. So regular 3DS isn't the only issue, here.
Because if the Ice Climber work on the Wii U but not on the 3Ds, even if it sells only 10 times, it is better than not selling anything thanks to the 3DS having no power to run Ice Climbers.
Parity should be broken if the 3DS can't handle certain stuff, don't limit the characters because one version can't run them. I'm sure that if the case was different (aka 3DS handling stuff better than Wii U) 3ds only owners wouldn't touch their hearts and stay with parity.
Sakurai break the parity.
Just like we can't use Miis online, then don't allow Ice Climbers in 8 player Smash.
I think they should. It's not like Smash Wii U has sold bad either, so they could make the cost back easily. It may also be feasible to port them for the n3DS too...
In any case, I don't think Ice Climbers would work in 8 player Smash so it's even more unlikely that this ever happens. Sadly.
In any case, I don't think Ice Climbers would work in 8 player Smash so it's even more unlikely that this ever happens. Sadly.
That's going to be a harder sell when you're paying for IC specifically, Miis were just part of the original package.
Drilbit777
Member
Honestly the 3DS version was mainly just a bug test for the game. I really think Nintendo shouldn't be letting that hold them back from smash bros true potential.
It's not the most elegant solution, but in the unlikely event they made WiiU-only IC, they could offer for it a reduced price point, and add an asterisk that says: "Not usable in 8-Player Smash."
The premise here is Sakurai adding a cherry on top of the more capable version, basically, and providing at least one avenue where fans of that character can use them in the current meta-game.
If we have 5 characters or more that Sakurai wants to make but can't due to 3DS limitations, then go ahead & break roster parity.
But we only know of one, & it's the Ice Climbers of all people (I.E., nobodies to the average joe). They aren't worth it, & you're lying to yourself if you believe that they alone would give the Wii U version any sort of real advantage on store shelves or on the eShop that will get 3DS owners to say "Hey, it's the Ice Climbers, I need to get the Wii U version". Most of the general public doesn't miss the Ice Climbers, & a decent chunk of the competitive scene doesn't miss the Ice Climbers. Only we, along with other gaming forums, miss them, & that's not enough of a reason to break roster parity (which brings some advantages like easier distribution of balance patches & Amiibos). The sooner we accept this & realize that the Ice Climbers will be back in the next Smash game, the better off we as a community will be. I've made peace with this fact, it's time the rest of you do the same.
But we only know of one, & it's the Ice Climbers of all people (I.E., nobodies to the average joe). They aren't worth it, & you're lying to yourself if you believe that they alone would give the Wii U version any sort of real advantage on store shelves or on the eShop that will get 3DS owners to say "Hey, it's the Ice Climbers, I need to get the Wii U version". Most of the general public doesn't miss the Ice Climbers, & a decent chunk of the competitive scene doesn't miss the Ice Climbers. Only we, along with other gaming forums, miss them, & that's not enough of a reason to break roster parity (which brings some advantages like easier distribution of balance patches & Amiibos). The sooner we accept this & realize that the Ice Climbers will be back in the next Smash game, the better off we as a community will be. I've made peace with this fact, it's time the rest of you do the same.
I mean, I'd personally be all for it. I can just quickly see the backlash of a character that you're paying extra for not being usable in a mode that might be a main draw. Miis at least have the luxury of not being treated as full blown characters in a lot of the modes so their omission from random online doesn't seem too jarring, to me at least.
Well, to be clear, I don't think -any- character in this game could sell a system. Not in any meaningful number. That whole "incentive" suggestion, earlier in the thread, was meant more in line with something like GBA games on the WiiU VC. Just a "lil' something" to sweeten the deal. Not the tipping point at which someone upgrades.
I agree that most people probably don't care about ICs. I think if they were added, it would be more of a gesture to the fans, trying to bring back one of most egregiously absent characters on the roster, in the only capacity where it's technically feasible. That'd probably mean WiiU only, or maybe WiiU and N3DS.
It'd probably mean they're playable only in traditional Smash, so no 8-Player. But if they were to attempt this, I think that even with the limitations, and the slight break in roster parity, it'd be appreciated.
So I think they should... But I don't anticipate it will happen. It'd be nice, though, for the fans.
Think of it from my little cousin's perspective. She trains with me on Smash, & gets both the 3DS & the Wii U version. She sees the Ice Climbers available & asks "Cousin Nabil, who are they & why can't I get them on the 3DS?" I try to explain the Ice Climbers & their situation, which would only leave her baffled. Granted, it's a simple concept for us to understand, but we have to consider others who may be confused by the logic and only see the situation for what it is, a character only on the Wii U version. Granted, she's only 6 or 7, so it may be different for average people around our age, but you get my point. Plus, as stated before, the 3DS version sold more so there's no use short-changing the more popular version.
I think most kids would probably understand the explanation that "Ice Climbers were too complicated for a small system like the 3DS." I get what you're saying, though.
It's more interesting to imagine how Iwata would explain it to us, the core. I can picture it now:
"We have one more announcement for Super Smash Bros. One more character. However, please understand this character is only possible with the extra power of the WiiU. We've heard the fans, and we are bringing back the Ice Climbers. Again, please understand they will only appear on the WiiU. Also, they are not compatible with certain modes. We will release them at a lower price this ____."
Again, not saying it's likely, but I can picture how they would possibly approach it in that situation. And framed that way, I think fan reactions would be OK. Most people would probably just be happy to see ICs in any fashion.
Granted, that would be solid damage control on Nintendo's part, but the impact of the 3DS missing out (even if it's for a legit technical reason) would sting & make the 3DS feel like the obsolete version, which may result in the 3DS version's sales slowing down quicker than they're supposed to.
While sure, the 3DS version is kinda obsolete now, it doesn't feel that way to the general public because the roster on both versions are the same. Making the Ice Climbers Wii U-only would take away that disguise & damage 3DS sales in the long-run not because of the Ice Climbers themselves, but the precedence they would set. And seeing as the Ice Climbers aren't popular enough for the average joe to go out to buy the Wii U version, it'll just result in Smash 4 not selling as much.
Maybe. I'm honestly not sure what I'd expect in that situation. I could also see most fans being relatively indifferent since, like you said, ICs aren't the most popular characters. They're just especially cherished by the most hardcore Smash fans, and those fans probably have both versions, anyways.
No solution will satisfy everyone, though.
Stratostar
Member
Nothing Sakurai does is "dumb." He has his reasons for every decision made. And it's not like he wanted to cut Ice Climbers. He created the modern-day interpretation of those characters... For many of us, he's the reason we know about them in the first place. So you know it probably hurt Sakurai the most to cut the Ice Climbers. He managed the development of two massive games at once, with all kinds of variables to consider, so let's not diminish the man and his work. :-\
Knowing that part of him is probably bummed he had to cut ICs is why I would like him to maybe find a way to bring them back. If he can, I think he should try. But whatever ends up happening, I trust the man. He's giving us his best effort, and I can't think of anyone who would do better.
This, the interviews of Sakurai talking about the Ice Climbers' removal showed that he did at least give an honest-to-god effort to try to get the Ice Climbers working on both versions of the game.
Yeah, I get the distinct impression Sakurai went through hell trying to please as many people as he can. He nearly destroyed himself. So it's not like he was oblivious to the fact that cutting IC would disappoint some people. He was stressing out left and right.
But he made a decision at the time that in the grand scheme of things, it was better to deliver the same set of characters to both groups (3DS and WiiU), and it just wasn't possible to bring back IC under those circumstances.
The question now is, since the base games are complete, might we see Sakurai deviate a bit from his original stance, and try to meet IC fans "halfway," so to speak.
well now, lol
That's a little harsh. Sure, they alone aren't worth the removal of roster parity, but they shouldn't be demoted to Assist Trophies either. In fact, Sakurai doesn't believe in demoting a character who was once playable to something like a costume or an Assist Trophy. It's most of the reason why Dr. Mario is his own character.
The rage, especially from the competitive scene (which has since forsaken the 3DS version), would be unreal.
So here's an idea on how to add Ice Climbers in both versions:
Wii U version gets standard Ice Climbers as they've always been. If that means no 8 player smash for them, so be it.
3DS Version gets SoPo (or just Nana as an alt costume), and he's for the most part an exact copy of Popo from Smash Wii U, but all of his attacks have 2 hitboxes instead of 1, basically doubling his damage. The total damage increase doesn't have to 2x exactly, it could be something more reasonable like 1.8x or 1.7x, but it has to be significant enough to make up for no Nana. There could be other minor changes like increases in range and attack speed too.
The up-b could be changed to start out giving more height than usual and then continually losing height as you take damage, reaching the same amount of height that a single Ice Climber would usually give you at around 120-130%.
Final Smash and the victory poses could still have both Ice Climbers.
I know I said I don't think a single Ice Climber is good enough, but I honestly don't care what happens in the 3DS version so long as it means the Wii U version gets the real Ice Climbers. The 3DS version would be a very different character in terms of the things you could actually pull off but I don't think it'd be a big difference in the amount of work for the devs.
Wii U version gets standard Ice Climbers as they've always been. If that means no 8 player smash for them, so be it.
3DS Version gets SoPo (or just Nana as an alt costume), and he's for the most part an exact copy of Popo from Smash Wii U, but all of his attacks have 2 hitboxes instead of 1, basically doubling his damage. The total damage increase doesn't have to 2x exactly, it could be something more reasonable like 1.8x or 1.7x, but it has to be significant enough to make up for no Nana. There could be other minor changes like increases in range and attack speed too.
The up-b could be changed to start out giving more height than usual and then continually losing height as you take damage, reaching the same amount of height that a single Ice Climber would usually give you at around 120-130%.
Final Smash and the victory poses could still have both Ice Climbers.
I know I said I don't think a single Ice Climber is good enough, but I honestly don't care what happens in the 3DS version so long as it means the Wii U version gets the real Ice Climbers. The 3DS version would be a very different character in terms of the things you could actually pull off but I don't think it'd be a big difference in the amount of work for the devs.
I'm sure people will poke holes in your ideas, but I think the core concept is interesting.
You Trip'n
The roster parity shouldn't exist in the first place. It doesn't even justify itself, nevermind justifying the dismissal of one of the most unique characters in Smash history.
Make it right, Sakurai.
WrenchNinja
Member
I play the 3DS version more so I'd be bummed out if he did do that.
Rentahamster
Rodent Whores
Could and should. Much more potential benefits for breaking parity than keeping parity.
Mushroomer25
Member
Undoubtedly. Sell a $15 pack that moves over all the 3DS stages as well. Make it clear that a definitive version exists, and use it to sell WiiU consoles.
As does the majority of Japan I'd wager, which is why, if anything, the 3DS version determining the roster and even getting exclusive characters seems more likely than the Wii U version receiving that honour (which to be frank is the version I strongly prefer). Why else would Sakurai not at least put the Ice Climbers into the Wii U version?
Not to go off-topic, but people in general seem to forget sometimes that pretty much every decision Nintendo makes in terms of game releases and DLC is first and foremost targeting their Japanese audience.
That is why we are getting more Fire Emblem games, more Animal Crossing games and AC DLC in MK8, Zelda Musou games and Zelda DLC in MK8, or why they are now partnering up with DeNA to go mobile as well. It is also why we might never get a major console Metroid or F-Zero title anymore, or any game in a series that never really caught on in Japan, as depressing as that sounds. Back on-topic it is possibly why there is a 3DS version of Smash in the first place and the reason why this version seems to be determining the roster etc.
Nintendo's Japan centeredness often frustrates me, especially considering how long some of us have been fans of Nintendo games and systems, but it must make sense for them somehow to do things this way regardless of the existence of NoA and NoE and their audiences. (And for those that prefer their games on 3DS, it can also be a blessing of course.)
We'll definitely get another Metroid in the foreseeable future, I have no doubt about that.
As for removing roster parity, there's no real way Nintendo wins by removing it. Give the 3DS an exclusive character & the fans would riot. Give the Wii U an exclusive character & 3DS sales would tank not because of the character, but because it would send a message that the 3DS version is obsolete (something Sakurai was able to side-step by giving both versions the same roster). I miss the Ice Climbers too, but they aren't worth it.
And this is why breaking roster parity wouldn't be all sunshine & rainbows.
Hyperactivity
Banned
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