Schmendrick
Banned
Which part of Zelda exactly is supposed to be an RPG???
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Do you think Zelda is an RPG?
- Thread starter LakeOf9
- Start date
Punished Miku
Banned
Dark Souls, you create a character and have stats. Not much dialogue, but there is lore.
And yet, it's extremely similar to Zelda.
And yet, it's extremely similar to Zelda.
kuncol02
Banned
It's least important part of RPG being RPG, but building narrative and player agency is most important part of it.
DeltaPolarBear
Member
If all the games with level scaling are RPGs, then so is BotW. BotW basically removed levels entirely and just have items as powerups, which included heart containers. That is what all level scaling RPGs basically are at that point; the leveling is a lie and the only thing making you powerful is the items you get access to.
BotW has the decency of not lying about your levels and just not HAVE levels.
BotW has the decency of not lying about your levels and just not HAVE levels.
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Wildebeest
Member
Only 5 or so years later but whatever, it retroactively invented it.
Gamerfan81
Member
It's an action-adventure RPG. First time I've heard that Zelda isn't one on any board.
ÆMNE22A!C
Banned
It's more of an adventure game viewed through an external avatar with some light rpg aspects. So no.
Dr. Wilkinson
Member
What I described is absolutely foundational for most RPGs. But sure, let's argue about leveling up and equipment not being part of what makes an RPG.
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kiphalfton
Member
No. And don't give Nintendo devs bad ideas.
KXVXII9X
Member
There was a game on the Atari I played a while back that was called "Adventure" that seemed like what the Zelda series was inspired by.
KXVXII9X
Member
I think it is an Action-Adventure game first with some very light stats.
What separates Zelda BotW/TotK from general RPG's for me is the game doesn't revolve around RPG mechanics. Most RPG's are mostly designed around stats and numbers and leveling up in some way. Zelda BotW/TotK is designed around it's many gameplay systems. There is no reliance on levels but how well you know the systems and creativity to overcome certain obstacles.
What separates Zelda BotW/TotK from general RPG's for me is the game doesn't revolve around RPG mechanics. Most RPG's are mostly designed around stats and numbers and leveling up in some way. Zelda BotW/TotK is designed around it's many gameplay systems. There is no reliance on levels but how well you know the systems and creativity to overcome certain obstacles.
BouncyFrag
Member
Still waiting for voiced Link, dialogue wheel, morality system, factions, and romance options.
Edit: Narrative choice so I can side with Gannon too.
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MMaRsu
Member
Leveling up and acquiring new gear does not make anything an RPG.
Makoto-Yuki
Banned
Nah. Not every game needs to be an RPG.
You just play as Link and can't affect how the story goes. BOTW at least wasn't very heavy story wise. The best you can get at roleplaying is choosing which gear he has or creating a "Build" for him which is just a playstyle. Do you want to use the sword/shield for combat, bow/arrow, abilities/bombs, stealth, or a mix of everything?
Compared to something like Skyrim, Cyberpunk, Elden Ring, etc then BOTW isn't an RPG. It's an open world action/adventure/puzzle game and there ain't anything wrong with that.
You just play as Link and can't affect how the story goes. BOTW at least wasn't very heavy story wise. The best you can get at roleplaying is choosing which gear he has or creating a "Build" for him which is just a playstyle. Do you want to use the sword/shield for combat, bow/arrow, abilities/bombs, stealth, or a mix of everything?
Compared to something like Skyrim, Cyberpunk, Elden Ring, etc then BOTW isn't an RPG. It's an open world action/adventure/puzzle game and there ain't anything wrong with that.
Elder Legend
Banned
Zelda has no leveling or any stats as far as I am aware off except the ability to get more hearts. But those are super simple stats that even platforming games have. No its NOT an RPG.
Zelda is an action/adventure game.
Zelda is an action/adventure game.
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soulbait
Member
I think there are several things a game needs to be considered an RPG. These are are elements that are taken out of tabletop RPGs and transition into a video game. I do not think an RPG needs to have all of these, but at least more than one before they are considered an RPG:
1. Player Chooses Skill Progression of Character(s)
This is the most classic RPG requirement and many non-RPG games have adapted this, by calling it "RPG elements." Being able to choose your character(s)' progression in skills and attributes over time is a staple in RPGs. I would say for a game to be considered an RPG, this is a must. However, a game having this does not make it an RPG per say. You can see games like Spider-Man and the FarCry series having this choice in them, and most would not say they are RPGs. But all games that are considered RPGs do have this feature in them.
2. Strong Narrative
What made table top games like Dungeons and Dragons popular, is not just the combat in the game, but also the strong narrative that is created as you play the game. The story giving your character a purpose and motivation to go on their quests is what keeps people engaged with the game. Even older RPGs like the original Dragon Quest attempted to have a strong narrative within the limitations of the NES. As the medium evolved, the strong narrative became more and more apparent in the genre. Of course, most AAA non-sport games today have a strong narrative in them, but just because they do, it does not make them a RPG.
3. Character Creation Beyond Appearance
This is one that IMO, that if a game has it, it is more than likely a RPG. This is where you are able to choose your character's race, job, class, and more. Sometime even able to choose your character's back story, crafting the character to how you want them to be. Some go very heavy in this like Fallout or The Elder Scrolls, but others go lighter in this like Mass Effect or KOTOR, where you get to choose options, but your character is still mostly chosen for the narrative. This is also usually the dividing line between Western RPGs and JRPGs, where many JRPGs does not feature this as prominently as their WRPG counter parts.
4. Character Choice Within The Narrative
This is another thing that made classic tabletop RPGs so much fun. Rather than just playing through a story, your choices impact the story. Do you save a tribe, or allow them to die so you can get a needed resource? Do you help someone on their quest for free, or do you require payment? These decisions make you feel like you have more of impact to the world around. In many games this is really an illusion of choice, but it still feels like you, the player, can make your own unique story within the world. But also, having choice does not make it an RPG. Look at games like Tell Tale's The Walking Dead. You have ton of choice, but it is not an RPG.
5. Player Parties
Another staple in RPGs is not just you focused on your character, but gathering other members to be in your party. These are your mates as you go on adventures, and in most games you are able to adjust their skill sets just like your main character. This was adapted from where at tabletop RPG would usually have a group of friends going on an adventure together. Where RPGs usually are solo games, they fill in the gaps of this aspect of by giving you a party of characters to play with.
6. Stat Based Combat
Combat that is stat based, where you can see the amount of damage your weapons or skills cause versus an enemy is a staple of RPGs, mimicking dice rolls of the tabletop games. The stat focused combat allows you to see more progression with your character. Sure, even in a standard FPS like Modern Warfare, different weapons cause different amounts of damage, but it is not as front and center as a RPG.
I could pull out a few more characteristics of what make an RPG game, but I think these 6 are the most. If you line these up with popular RPG franchises/games you will see how they all have several of these items:
I added my favorite RPGs and also Breath of the Wild to that table. IMO, Breath of the Wild only fulfills the Strong Narrative part. An argument could be made that the character has a lot of choice within the narrative of the game, but others could say they way Breath of the Wild does it is more of a Sandbox/Open World approach when it comes to exploration and combat and it does not impact the overall story in the game. What a lot of people love about Breath of the Wild is the ability to create your own narrative on how you approach the world. However, I do not feel this is the same as your character making an impact, especially when it comes to interactions with NPCs and such. The other Zelda games are similar, in which they offer a great story and adventure, but I would still say they do no give you the progression and development that we most think of when it comes to an RPG.
Well that is how I see it. I am sure some of you will argue about what is needed for a game to be an RPG. This also leads into a fun discussion of other games that have added RPG elements to them and if they are RPGs or not. FarCry, Assassin's Creed, The Latest Tomb Raider games, and more could be argued. (I say no to FarCry, yes to latest AC games and no to Tomb Raider).
1. Player Chooses Skill Progression of Character(s)
This is the most classic RPG requirement and many non-RPG games have adapted this, by calling it "RPG elements." Being able to choose your character(s)' progression in skills and attributes over time is a staple in RPGs. I would say for a game to be considered an RPG, this is a must. However, a game having this does not make it an RPG per say. You can see games like Spider-Man and the FarCry series having this choice in them, and most would not say they are RPGs. But all games that are considered RPGs do have this feature in them.
2. Strong Narrative
What made table top games like Dungeons and Dragons popular, is not just the combat in the game, but also the strong narrative that is created as you play the game. The story giving your character a purpose and motivation to go on their quests is what keeps people engaged with the game. Even older RPGs like the original Dragon Quest attempted to have a strong narrative within the limitations of the NES. As the medium evolved, the strong narrative became more and more apparent in the genre. Of course, most AAA non-sport games today have a strong narrative in them, but just because they do, it does not make them a RPG.
3. Character Creation Beyond Appearance
This is one that IMO, that if a game has it, it is more than likely a RPG. This is where you are able to choose your character's race, job, class, and more. Sometime even able to choose your character's back story, crafting the character to how you want them to be. Some go very heavy in this like Fallout or The Elder Scrolls, but others go lighter in this like Mass Effect or KOTOR, where you get to choose options, but your character is still mostly chosen for the narrative. This is also usually the dividing line between Western RPGs and JRPGs, where many JRPGs does not feature this as prominently as their WRPG counter parts.
4. Character Choice Within The Narrative
This is another thing that made classic tabletop RPGs so much fun. Rather than just playing through a story, your choices impact the story. Do you save a tribe, or allow them to die so you can get a needed resource? Do you help someone on their quest for free, or do you require payment? These decisions make you feel like you have more of impact to the world around. In many games this is really an illusion of choice, but it still feels like you, the player, can make your own unique story within the world. But also, having choice does not make it an RPG. Look at games like Tell Tale's The Walking Dead. You have ton of choice, but it is not an RPG.
5. Player Parties
Another staple in RPGs is not just you focused on your character, but gathering other members to be in your party. These are your mates as you go on adventures, and in most games you are able to adjust their skill sets just like your main character. This was adapted from where at tabletop RPG would usually have a group of friends going on an adventure together. Where RPGs usually are solo games, they fill in the gaps of this aspect of by giving you a party of characters to play with.
6. Stat Based Combat
Combat that is stat based, where you can see the amount of damage your weapons or skills cause versus an enemy is a staple of RPGs, mimicking dice rolls of the tabletop games. The stat focused combat allows you to see more progression with your character. Sure, even in a standard FPS like Modern Warfare, different weapons cause different amounts of damage, but it is not as front and center as a RPG.
I could pull out a few more characteristics of what make an RPG game, but I think these 6 are the most. If you line these up with popular RPG franchises/games you will see how they all have several of these items:
| Game/Series | Player Chooses Skill Progression of Character(s) | Strong Narrative | Character Creation Beyond Appearance | Character Choice Within The Narrative | Player Parties | Stat Based Combat |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| The Elder Scrolls/Fallout Games | Y | Y (could be argued No) | Y | Y | N | Y |
| Final Fantasy Games | Y | Y | N | N | Y | Y |
| Mass Effect | Y | Y | Y | Y | Y | Y although got less as the series went on |
| The Witcher 3 | Y | Y | N | Y | N | Y |
| The Legend of Zelda Breath of the Wild | N | Y | N | N Some could argue your approach to different things would be Yes. | N | N |
I added my favorite RPGs and also Breath of the Wild to that table. IMO, Breath of the Wild only fulfills the Strong Narrative part. An argument could be made that the character has a lot of choice within the narrative of the game, but others could say they way Breath of the Wild does it is more of a Sandbox/Open World approach when it comes to exploration and combat and it does not impact the overall story in the game. What a lot of people love about Breath of the Wild is the ability to create your own narrative on how you approach the world. However, I do not feel this is the same as your character making an impact, especially when it comes to interactions with NPCs and such. The other Zelda games are similar, in which they offer a great story and adventure, but I would still say they do no give you the progression and development that we most think of when it comes to an RPG.
Well that is how I see it. I am sure some of you will argue about what is needed for a game to be an RPG. This also leads into a fun discussion of other games that have added RPG elements to them and if they are RPGs or not. FarCry, Assassin's Creed, The Latest Tomb Raider games, and more could be argued. (I say no to FarCry, yes to latest AC games and no to Tomb Raider).
iQuasarLV
Member
maybe hitting people with the common description of the RPG video game genre parlance would set a foundation of expectation.
Role-playing video game - Wikipedia
iQuasarLV
Member
someone bothered to type it out. I just find what fits and link it. Thanks for defining the expectations of the genre.
rodrigolfp
Haptic Gamepads 4 Life
There is role play?
LakeOf9
Member
Amazing post.
One thing I'll add is that BOTW does actually fulfill the first column (player driven progression) - you can not only choose to grow your character in health versus stamina, but also the champion skills, where you can decide if you want them, what order you want them in, whether you want to level them up, and whether or not you even want them active on the character.
This of course doesn't change the point (that BOTW is not an RPG), but just wanted to make that observation
DonkeyPunchJr
World’s Biggest Weeb
The answer really depends on what argument I'm trying to win and/or who I'm trying to troll.
Laptop1991
Member
No.
ResurrectedContrarian
Suffers with mild autism
Somewhat unrelated to the question, this makes me wonder why we've never seen a Zelda RPG spinoff.
Mario had its SNES RPG, the Paper Mario series, and the Mario & Luigi series.
A spinoff like that for Zelda might be very interesting.
Mario had its SNES RPG, the Paper Mario series, and the Mario & Luigi series.
A spinoff like that for Zelda might be very interesting.
Rhazkul
Member
Yeah, i agree and i knew the Witcher 3 would probably come up sooner or later. It's one of the reasons why i didn't enjoy the game too much: roleplaying was limited. But: it was still there, you had extensive dialogue options. You could be a nice witcher, an edgy witcher or just be a cynical asshole (my fav)...different ways to solve things, lots of skill trees too and a high fantasy setting on top. So, in essence it's still an RPG, but more action/adventure-focused.
SnapShot
Member
It kinda gives me those RPG vibes sometimes, you complete town quests that lead you to dungeons, get new items and armor, can do main and side quests
I prefer it over RPGs because it does not have as much content padding as your typical RPG and nearly every item you get matters in some way (some are even mandatory to progress the story)
I prefer it over RPGs because it does not have as much content padding as your typical RPG and nearly every item you get matters in some way (some are even mandatory to progress the story)
EverydayBeast
ChatShitGPT Alpha 0.001
Zelda is flexible and designed for anyone.
Paltheos
Member
No. Even considering it is symptomatic of the problem with genre-labeling wrt RPGs for the past forever. RPGs should be titles in which player choice has a substantial impact on the player's experience of the story. It's come to mean just about any game in which you control some dude and don't have a gameplay loop which is unambiguously associated and labeled with another genre.
I blame it on JRPGs, mostly. The term was always nebulously defined to begin with, but laziness from players and critics and even developers has resulted in seemingly everything from the country being labeled an RPG.
"Dark Souls? Gotta be an RPG. You control a character, you level up, and the game was made in Japan. It can't be an action game. Action games need to be fast."
"13 Sentinels? You control so many different characters and follow this big story. It has to be an RPG.
I saw one mofo call *Danganronpa* a JRPG. Presumably just because it has an anime aesthetic and isn't 100% a visual novel.
Part of it has to do with siloing your interests under one label, I think, but again developers are to blame too. Not just recent ones for leaning into the trend but older ones too. Falcom's been labeling their Ys games action RPGs since forever. I don't know where this understanding originated from but it's confusing and dumb and bothers me more than it probably should.
I blame it on JRPGs, mostly. The term was always nebulously defined to begin with, but laziness from players and critics and even developers has resulted in seemingly everything from the country being labeled an RPG.
"Dark Souls? Gotta be an RPG. You control a character, you level up, and the game was made in Japan. It can't be an action game. Action games need to be fast."
"13 Sentinels? You control so many different characters and follow this big story. It has to be an RPG.
I saw one mofo call *Danganronpa* a JRPG. Presumably just because it has an anime aesthetic and isn't 100% a visual novel.
Part of it has to do with siloing your interests under one label, I think, but again developers are to blame too. Not just recent ones for leaning into the trend but older ones too. Falcom's been labeling their Ys games action RPGs since forever. I don't know where this understanding originated from but it's confusing and dumb and bothers me more than it probably should.
soulbait
Member
Thank you.Amazing post.
One thing I'll add is that BOTW does actually fulfill the first column (player driven progression) - you can not only choose to grow your character in health versus stamina, but also the champion skills, where you can decide if you want them, what order you want them in, whether you want to level them up, and whether or not you even want them active on the character.
This of course doesn't change the point (that BOTW is not an RPG), but just wanted to make that observation
Okay, yeah that makes sense. It has been a while since I have played BOTW. Too be honest, I am not the biggest fan of it. I am one of those who could not get over the weapon breaking mechanism, LOL. I appreciate the openness of the game and being able to use the physics of the world to your advantage, but I just could not stick with it. Maybe one day they will do my dream Zelda game, which would be a 3D remake of Link to the Past.
Nintendo's Witch
Member
But Zelda can crawl tho.
Draxon Gamer
Banned
Do you not look into older games unless someone on a YouTube channel you watch names one?
Zelda itself is inspired by a bunch of games on computers and console, but Druaga and Hydlide in particular were the biggest. Gauntlet was also a popular influence for Japanese developers. Zelda combined elements of both genres but chose to be an Action Adventure game that stripped out the complexities of Druaga in order to be easier for kids to play who owned famicoms.
The Druaga link is very important to understand why the first Zelda was designed the way it was compared to all the other releases in the series.
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