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[D_prOdigy]

Waters of Mars was 5 years ago today.

We are old as fuck.

 

[V_Arnold]

Sorry to stir this pot again, but....is it possible to be a bit more complex than a "Moffat-hater" or a lover?

Because I *love* the Moffat-era, especially S5-6. I started to change my mind about the show's tone when I got into the audio plays, especially the Eight Doctor stuff. I largely loved Capaldi too and S8 too, but I cant help but hate the finale. Is that moffat hate?

For me, The Last of the Time Lords and all that MADE more sense than these two episodes. Even Old Man Doctor was more interesting to me than a contrived Master-Doctor play (and I LOVE Missy, LOVE the Master, LOVE the Doctor).

It is the interactions that sucked this time. The only good line was "you win", imho. The lying, that Gallifrey stuff (which would have hurt more if we have seen the Doctor miss it even ONCE since the regenaration...), all the bad cyberman-magic, all that - it lacked coherence, direction. I was just disappinted.

I know no one is being singled out, but it IS possible to hate on something and still not go into "Moffat-hater" territory. Moffat is fine. Something was wrong with this season finale, though, imho. If you got such a wonderful mix of characters here, you better do something meaningful with them.

 

[MrBadger]

I really enjoyed series 8 and after rewatching the eleventh hour and the big bang, I respect Moffat as a show runner a lot more. But I still think my criticisms of his writing hold true. I don't think that makes me a Moffat hater.

 

[Fuu]

Yep, pigeonholing criticism and normal discussion about the good and bad points of a show with black and white "haters" reductionism is always annoying. Doctor Who discussions are always interesting because of the often wildly different points of view. But what do I know, in my eyes blindly shitting on something has just as much validity as blindly gushing over it (as in, very little), so as long as people are actually elaborating it's all good.

Reminds me of when an episode just aired and, even though there are as many people who liked or disliked it talking about many different points, you have the drive-by "I loved this episode to bits but of course GAF hates it OH WELL" posts.

 

[maharg]

Yep, pigeonholing criticism and normal discussion about the good and bad points of a show with black and white "haters" reductionism is always annoying.

I agree. Good thing that's not what I said.

 

[Fuu]

I agree. Good thing that's not what I said.

Saying the other thread is "basically a Moffat hate-fest" implies that to me. Yes, there are posts with negative points like mine, Red Arremer's and Technomancer's (and a lot of neutral and positive ones too), but I didn't see anyone being unreasonable with their arguments. APZone was just doing his thing and posting a specific analysis article, same way he'd post one praising Moffat if he had just read a good one. The rest was just the usual lists and normal conversation about the Christmas special.

Anyway, I don't mind even Kuwabara's craziest posts, even though I disagree with him a lot of times, because he always explains in detail what his problems are. Like I said, as long as people elaborate it's all good. As far as I can tell it's what was happening in that thread, so I was surprised to see you and Htown reacting like this.

By the way, I was trying to speak in more general terms about the idea of critique being labeled as hating that Techno, MrBadger and V_Arnold were going on above (otherwise I'd have quoted you directly). I never care for "that thread/gaf ____" type of post, but I guess this time it got to me.

 

[Mush]

I loved Osgood.

Why did they kill Osgood?

Mush mad. Mush angry.

 

[StopMakingSense]

I loved Osgood.

Why did they kill Osgood?

Mush mad. Mush angry.

Oh they have a spare.

 

[Exterminieren]

It's coming to the end of Moffat's era, and people are getting tired of it. Same happened to RTD, and the same will happen to future showrunners.

In the Specials Year, you could barely find a positive opinion of what RTD had done, and the pendulum has swung back the other way since. The critical reappraisal of the Moffat era will happen eventually.

 

[StealthGoblin]

All I'm really looking for is some high quality science fiction. Some stories that actually make sense and don't have quick, mangled endings. I'd rather give up an overarching mystery that is peppered across episodes to achieve that.

 

[peanutbutterlatte]

All I'm really looking for is some high quality science fiction. Some stories that actually make sense and don't have quick, mangled endings. I'd rather give up an overarching mystery that is peppered across episodes to achieve that.

Sorry to break this to you, but a Time Machine containing its own series of pocket dimensions that can move in time and space doesn't make any sense. Go elsewhere.

 

[davidcotton]

All I'm really looking for is some high quality science fiction. Some stories that actually make sense and don't have quick, mangled endings. I'd rather give up an overarching mystery that is peppered across episodes to achieve that.

Check some of the later Big Finish then.

 

[V_Arnold]

Sorry to break this to you, but a Time Machine containing its own series of pocket dimensions that can move in time and space doesn't make any sense. Go elsewhere.

Big Finish stories say otherwise, sorry.

 

[APZonerunner]

It's coming to the end of Moffat's era, and people are getting tired of it. Same happened to RTD, and the same will happen to future showrunners.

In the Specials Year, you could barely find a positive opinion of what RTD had done, and the pendulum has swung back the other way since. The critical reappraisal of the Moffat era will happen eventually.

Absolutely this.

And RE Galvinize, as the it goes it's really more of a child-friendly science fantasy show. It's more Harry Potter than Star Trek, more Star Wars than Firefly, and if you go in looking for more serious sci-fi the show will probably disappoint you at least 8 out of the 13 weeks a year it's on. Big Finish is arguably for a different audience and has a very different tone, a lot like how there's a lot of darker and grittier stuff in the Star Wars expanded universe. The show will forever be a lighter touch.

 

[peanutbutterlatte]

Big Finish stories say otherwise, sorry.

Well okay, listen to them then.

 

[Dryk]

All I'm really looking for is some high quality science fiction. Some stories that actually make sense and don't have quick, mangled endings. I'd rather give up an overarching mystery that is peppered across episodes to achieve that.

The scripts that have been turned in over the last few years rarely work within one 45-minute episode. That's not going to change any time soon.

 

[MrBadger]

It's coming to the end of Moffat's era, and people are getting tired of it. Same happened to RTD, and the same will happen to future showrunners.

In the Specials Year, you could barely find a positive opinion of what RTD had done, and the pendulum has swung back the other way since. The critical reappraisal of the Moffat era will happen eventually.

I never used to follow Doctor Who online until the pre-series 8 hype and it actually kind of surprised me how much people hated RTD back when he was the show runner. I wonder if 5 years from now people will look at the people who didn't like Clara and the

Spoiler

absolutely correct

Listen detractors and think things like "how can anyone say that? Those are way better than the shit we have now. Bring back the Moff!"