Only in name. They might as well call him Evil Akuma given the fact that he is a what if character in much the same way E.Ryu is.
Can't say about the health though...
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Does anyone actually enjoy the "evil version" character trope?
- Thread starter FloatOn
- Start date
Only in name. They might as well call him Evil Akuma given the fact that he is a what if character in much the same way E.Ryu is.
Can't say about the health though...
Sorry. Kind of been having a bad week, was just trying to fit in. *sigh*
Evil Ryu is canon though mostly off of the Akuma/Gouki backstory and explained more in the udon comics.
The rest? Meh. I really don't care either way. If the movesets/character is interesting, I'll use it, if not pass. This isn't a psychological related thing rooted in storytelling, but more in how it plays. If one "Bad guy" is deemed too cheese among friends and a toned down "turned bad guy" varient isn't and the playstyle is similar then that ends up being the go to pick if that was what I was in the mood for.
For better "stories" I'll just read a book...
I don't think shadows are evil.
Even more evil.
Just as awful. I'm trying to be nice here, fellas. I don't want to ban people. But you're going to make me do it.
TheSpoiler
Member
In this topic: people who don't play fighting games beyond a simple glance.
I'll give you that in the early days, evil versions were pretty damn lame. They'd have only a few things altered or changed, but today, that's different.
Evil Ryu plays totally different than Ryu. Oni doesn't even have an air fireball.
Devil Jin's moveset mirror's Jin's Tekken 3 days, while Vanilla Jin is has an entirely different form of play.
I could go on, but you get the picture - from a gameplay perspective, they are fine.
I'll give you that in the early days, evil versions were pretty damn lame. They'd have only a few things altered or changed, but today, that's different.
Evil Ryu plays totally different than Ryu. Oni doesn't even have an air fireball.
Devil Jin's moveset mirror's Jin's Tekken 3 days, while Vanilla Jin is has an entirely different form of play.
I could go on, but you get the picture - from a gameplay perspective, they are fine.
I don't understand the "waste of a slot" idea.
I mean, sure some developers (Capcom come to mind) seem to use it a little too much to fill the roster without effort, but more often than not they take far less effort to make and give you an extra character that plays differently, whereas you would previously have not received any additional character at all. Most devs don't start with a pre-defined number of slots and then create characters until their roster is full.
I would much prefer 3-4 alts that all play differently to 1 original character.
I mean, sure some developers (Capcom come to mind) seem to use it a little too much to fill the roster without effort, but more often than not they take far less effort to make and give you an extra character that plays differently, whereas you would previously have not received any additional character at all. Most devs don't start with a pre-defined number of slots and then create characters until their roster is full.
I would much prefer 3-4 alts that all play differently to 1 original character.
Nintendo even has evil versions of characters that are already evil.
Then again, so do Sega.
And an evil variant of an evil variant
or two
itwasTuesday
He wasn't alone.
I like when iori gets wild.
The only time I truly dislike them is when they are NOTHING ELSE but Darker skin / armor and that's it. At that point, sure, it's lazy, as it adds nothing to a game.
But when it's done well, it's pretty much one of the most enjoyable things out there. When you start perverting the positive qualities of a character into evil in imaginative ways, it can lead to traits and actions that a regular evil character wouldn't generally have. Also to hear the VA / Seiyuu play a role archetype they normally don't get to do is pretty great.
The idea that it's a "Waste of a slot" in most fighters is pretty funny to me, where as most "evil" characters past the original MvC games are pretty unique. Shadow Lady might have been a weird mesh of sprites and effects that never should have been put together, But Violent Ken, Evil Ryu, Saiki in KoF XIII, or even Decapre in Ultra... most of these characters are fleshed out to be very different play-wise, they often get unique animations, art, and voicework, and if they weren't included, you'd be less likely to get another original character, but instead nothing in that "slot" at all.
Basically all of Tekken's expanded cast was an "evil version" of the main character they were connected to at first. Alongside that, Battle Arena Toshinden III decided it's blow up it's character roster by making nearly every playable character have a unique "evil" character based off them. I found this really fun, because we suddenly not only had the expected archetypes filling up a fighter, but now we had African warriors, a Michael Jackson Impersonator, and Jason. It totally jumped the shark and went bonkers, and got Tsukasa Kotobuki to draw a bunch of weird designs that I don't think you'd have seen anywhere else otherwise.
Used right, It's a fun excuse to add to a cast.
But when it's done well, it's pretty much one of the most enjoyable things out there. When you start perverting the positive qualities of a character into evil in imaginative ways, it can lead to traits and actions that a regular evil character wouldn't generally have. Also to hear the VA / Seiyuu play a role archetype they normally don't get to do is pretty great.
The idea that it's a "Waste of a slot" in most fighters is pretty funny to me, where as most "evil" characters past the original MvC games are pretty unique. Shadow Lady might have been a weird mesh of sprites and effects that never should have been put together, But Violent Ken, Evil Ryu, Saiki in KoF XIII, or even Decapre in Ultra... most of these characters are fleshed out to be very different play-wise, they often get unique animations, art, and voicework, and if they weren't included, you'd be less likely to get another original character, but instead nothing in that "slot" at all.
Basically all of Tekken's expanded cast was an "evil version" of the main character they were connected to at first. Alongside that, Battle Arena Toshinden III decided it's blow up it's character roster by making nearly every playable character have a unique "evil" character based off them. I found this really fun, because we suddenly not only had the expected archetypes filling up a fighter, but now we had African warriors, a Michael Jackson Impersonator, and Jason. It totally jumped the shark and went bonkers, and got Tsukasa Kotobuki to draw a bunch of weird designs that I don't think you'd have seen anywhere else otherwise.
Used right, It's a fun excuse to add to a cast.
Iori himself was already sort of an "evil kyo"
or at least he kinda was in KOF 95.
GhostTrick
Banned
I don't get the hate for this. Pretty much one of the only viable trope.
Sentenza
Member
Wait, are you saying that canon-wise Oni isn't supposed to be "ascended Akuma" or some shit like that?
Marvel
could never
Can't disagree, man I love it and his voice.
There was this guy
But he only got one game and it was really bad.
And yeah, Wario is an interesting example. He and Luigi both started off as alternate Mario's, but they've both evolved so much further and they both have games and casts of their own.
Knuckles was also conceived as an "evil Sonic" and he got his own spin off too.
Which also sucked.
Don't you dare be talkin shit about Knuckles Chaotix
Night_Knight
Unconfirmed Member
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CloudyTuba
Member
I like doppelgangers a lot, mostly in theory. In practice it entirely depends on each individual implementation. I don't much like simple pallet swaps. Something like Samus/Dark Samus is much better.
But generally, yes. They're really cool.
But generally, yes. They're really cool.
More like Knuckles ChaoSHIT
They aren't? Even though their motivations are drastically different from a typical villain, they're still evil. They try to kill their originators, after all.
I like them. They make for fun boss fights. They work best as a side-villain and not as the main antagonist. I do agree that they are kind of a waste of a slot in fighting games. I swear if Dark Pit is in SSB4...
Here are some of my favorites.
Vize the Imposter and his crew from Skies of Arcadia
Dark Link
Wario
Here are some of my favorites.
Vize the Imposter and his crew from Skies of Arcadia
Dark Link
Wario
Pretty sure he's not serious, just being "evil opiate".
OverdriveOtaku
Member
I like it when I feel there's been some effort put into making them similar to the original character, but still different enough to not be a clone.
One example I liked is in Guilty Gear Accent Core Plus, Sol-Badguy has an alternate form, Order Sol, and the majority of his attacks are different and his combo gauge even had different properties compared to most of the other characters. If its just a copy-paste of a character I don't particularly like it.
One example I liked is in Guilty Gear Accent Core Plus, Sol-Badguy has an alternate form, Order Sol, and the majority of his attacks are different and his combo gauge even had different properties compared to most of the other characters. If its just a copy-paste of a character I don't particularly like it.
I think evil ryu is purely story driven.
Uh? Knuckles is a bad ass 15 years old rastafari echidna, keeper of the emeralds and overpowered. I doubt he was ever conceived as anything else than an antagonist of Sonic. Metal Sonic was introduced before Knuckles and is clearly more an evil (robotic) twin than anything else.
MrCunningham
Member
Most are lame as fuck, I agree. But I will make an exception for Wario, who started out as a generic evil clone but developed into his own character with a personality that far surpasses Mario in every way. Though to be honest, the Nintendo version of Mario never really had a personality.
It brings us good boss fights, so I can't really complain about the trope. Dark Link from Zelda, Vorken from Wonderful 101,
from Mega Man Zero, and so on are some of their respective game's most memorable and exciting fights. Who cares if it is common if it makes the game fun?
Omega
MannyToons
Member
Wario is a good example of "evil version of an existing character" done right. However, it seems like Nintendo has completely forgotten about Wario even being Mario's rival. He hasn't appeared in a single mainline Mario game as an antagonist past Mario Land 2, and is only in spin-offs or Wario Ware titles. You know. The games Mario isn't even in. It's almost as if they made him too much of an individual. But I think he still stands as one of the best examples.
Dsyndrome
Member
Wailuigi's my go-to driver in MK8; still waiting for him to get his own game Wario style and rub it in everyone else's face like when he wins a race.
I'm fine with evil versions for the most part, I'm not looking for a TLOU narrative in these kinds of games anyway, just something fun that isn't annoyingly grating.
I'm fine with evil versions for the most part, I'm not looking for a TLOU narrative in these kinds of games anyway, just something fun that isn't annoyingly grating.
itwasTuesday
He wasn't alone.
Knuckles was conceived as a rival to Sonic working for Dr. Robotnik. His status as an "evil doppelganger" is punctuated by the one on one fight in HPZ where he has every move Sonic has, plus the ability to glide.
MannyToons
Member
Same here, man. Same here.
I came here looking for this. Certainly not the most interesting "evil" version out there, but I liked him.
And also the SA-X from Metroid Fusion (in comparison, I thought Dark Samus in the Prime series to be quite lame).
Ceallach
Smells like fresh rosebuds
Doppelganger was cool enough with hobgoblin, but Spidey is the master of this trope
MrCunningham
Member
I think what makes Wario work as a character is that he has actual polar opposite traits to Mario like being self centered and greedy, and does not fall under the "dark" for the sake of being dark trope. It's also interesting that Wario's personality traits are part of his play mechanic structure in games... Wario loves money, so his games are mostly about making money. Wario love himself more than anybody else, so he never rescues anyone (unlike Mario). He's a great game character.