eh, not really for everyone. I played Gears of war on a friends 360 with the full on HDTV/surround sound effect for hours, then went back home and played on the wii and didnt really care about the difference. to some people it really matters, but to a lot of people, it doesnt matter nearly as much as youd believe, or else people would be shunning the wii and flocking to the HD consoles.bengraven said:
As "early" and "underpowered" as new systems are, I can't stand going back to SD anymore. The games are just so crisp and clean that anything else just looks second class.
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Does 'Nintendomination' feel surreal to anyone else?
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Night_Trekker
Member
Tab0203 said:
I don't understand your response. I love traditional gaming, but the Wii is very exciting to me and I can't wait to own one. From what little I've played I love the Wiimote + nunchuk combo. I have absolutely no anti-Nintendo or anti-Wii bias.
But facts are facts. The Wii would not be capable of running some of the big third party games coming on the 360 and PS3 even if they were seriously scaled down. Nintendo can't have thought "hardcore gamers" would forget those titles and switch exclusively to the Wii, with it's comparatively meager "last-gen" specs. Not in a hobby that's traditionally placed so much focus on power.
I also think the oft-repeated assertion that "Wii is selling only to casuals" is bullshit. Nintendo is targeting everyone with the Wii and it's paying off.
RiskyChris said:
:lol
Didn't you say this?Night_Trekker said:
And now you say Nintendo is targeting everyone? Nintendo came up with the "secondary console" strategy? Reggie even said he doesn't like the Wii60 idea.
Peter Molineux: "Don't underestimate Nintendo" shortly before they unveiled the controller at TGS. Someone else (forgot his name) said:"Nintendo is back". The Wii is clearly targeting everyone. Hardcore, casual, lapsed and non gamers. And PC gamers.
Also, "traditionally" graphics were crap. Gamecube and Xbox changed that. Graphics are good enough (or not important at all, see ps2, ds) for most people. Even hardcore gamer graphics whores still enjoy F-Zero GX.
bengraven said:
As "early" and "underpowered" as new systems are, I can't stand going back to SD anymore. The games are just so crisp and clean that anything else just looks second class.
If even 1/3 of the gaming market shared your views PC gaming would be at least three times as big as it is today and when Far Cry and Doom3 come out we would have seen a mass exodus from consoles.
The only thing surreal about Nintendo's success is the way a so many hardcore gamers, developers and gaming media outlets are reacting. They'd formed this neat little club thinking they understood where gaming should go and what the mass market needed, but it's blowing up in their faces. The reality is they don't have the first idea about what mainstream consumers want.
You have the hardcore saying they're going to quit gaming if Wii wins, which, in the scheme of things won't affect anything.
The gaming media is so utterly clueless to what's going on they still think they speak with the voice of reason, saying ridiculous things like, 'the mainstream doesn't want this'. And, they keep asking Nintendo the same questions over and over and over again, even though they always get the same replies.
Best of all, you have developers desperately trying to get onto the DS/Wii train, while publicly apologising for giving Nintendo shit support! :lol
In addition, there are still people are not accepting the position Nintendo is in when they're selling over 2.5 million units of HW per month in the slowest times of the year! Compare this to Sony's ~1 million units, and MS's ~300K, and what is so difficult to understand?
You have the hardcore saying they're going to quit gaming if Wii wins, which, in the scheme of things won't affect anything.
The gaming media is so utterly clueless to what's going on they still think they speak with the voice of reason, saying ridiculous things like, 'the mainstream doesn't want this'. And, they keep asking Nintendo the same questions over and over and over again, even though they always get the same replies.
Best of all, you have developers desperately trying to get onto the DS/Wii train, while publicly apologising for giving Nintendo shit support! :lol
In addition, there are still people are not accepting the position Nintendo is in when they're selling over 2.5 million units of HW per month in the slowest times of the year! Compare this to Sony's ~1 million units, and MS's ~300K, and what is so difficult to understand?
SouthernDragon
Member
Well, see, HDTV adoption rates can only go up. As HDTV becomes the standard, consoles must be able to output at at least 720p and the Wii can only do 480p. The real HD consoles will then show their worth.
Not only that, but the multimedia functions will be priceless. Think about it. PS3 brings in a built in HD movie player. Microsoft released an add-on for those that use HD-DVD. Both can display movies, photos, and surf the internet. These are invaluable functions that'll take centerstage in the living room. The PS3 has Home, which as the potential to become another Second Life/MySpace/Facebook, and the 360 has Live, which is an outstanding and established online service.
The graphics on these HD consoles can only get better, and with the support of proper video and audio outputs, the immersion offered by these consoles will be greater than ever before. Ever played Shadow of the Colossus? Imagine that on the PS3 with surround sound at 1080p. Imagine the awe of the 3rd Colossus towering over you, hearing the echoing boom of his sword crash against the earth, the gasp of Wander as he stumbles to the ground from the impact.
Online connectivity can only enhance the experience. Games can be patched and upgraded, and re playability extended through downloadable content. Even in dry spells, you can buy original online games at little cost, or play your favorite multiplayer games with leaderboards and a comprehensive friends list.
Think consumers won't miss these things? Think again. The novelty of the Wiimote is bound to wear off. No doubt, it is fun for now. But it has failed to show that it can enhance gameplay outside of a few choice games, and all it does is replace a button tap with a wrist motion. That's change for change's sake, and is holding back gaming as a whole. Next gen graphics are just not capable on the Wii, and the experiences will be severely compromised on the Wii.
All Sony needs to take off is the games, and those are coming this fall. Along with the killer line up the 360 is going to get, going with the HD generation is going to be a no brainer. Meanwhile, Wii owners will find themselves short 250$ and noticing the great games on the competing hardware.
This is the first 6 months, guys. We have another 4 and a half years to go. Don't claim victory yet.
Not only that, but the multimedia functions will be priceless. Think about it. PS3 brings in a built in HD movie player. Microsoft released an add-on for those that use HD-DVD. Both can display movies, photos, and surf the internet. These are invaluable functions that'll take centerstage in the living room. The PS3 has Home, which as the potential to become another Second Life/MySpace/Facebook, and the 360 has Live, which is an outstanding and established online service.
The graphics on these HD consoles can only get better, and with the support of proper video and audio outputs, the immersion offered by these consoles will be greater than ever before. Ever played Shadow of the Colossus? Imagine that on the PS3 with surround sound at 1080p. Imagine the awe of the 3rd Colossus towering over you, hearing the echoing boom of his sword crash against the earth, the gasp of Wander as he stumbles to the ground from the impact.
Online connectivity can only enhance the experience. Games can be patched and upgraded, and re playability extended through downloadable content. Even in dry spells, you can buy original online games at little cost, or play your favorite multiplayer games with leaderboards and a comprehensive friends list.
Think consumers won't miss these things? Think again. The novelty of the Wiimote is bound to wear off. No doubt, it is fun for now. But it has failed to show that it can enhance gameplay outside of a few choice games, and all it does is replace a button tap with a wrist motion. That's change for change's sake, and is holding back gaming as a whole. Next gen graphics are just not capable on the Wii, and the experiences will be severely compromised on the Wii.
All Sony needs to take off is the games, and those are coming this fall. Along with the killer line up the 360 is going to get, going with the HD generation is going to be a no brainer. Meanwhile, Wii owners will find themselves short 250$ and noticing the great games on the competing hardware.
This is the first 6 months, guys. We have another 4 and a half years to go. Don't claim victory yet.
Pokeylongo
Member
I'm not saying Sony or MS couldn't take off past Nintendo, but you don't seem to understand why they're behind, which is also the reason they will probably stay behind for the entire generation: the appeal of the controller + games like Wii Sports. Nintendo made a controller everyone can use, and they make games that really, truly take advantage of it brilliantly. Wii Play doesn't even have to be a very good game, people will still play it. It's just fine for the mass market and it's practically $10 (even many hardcore gamers enjoy it). And Wii Sports could carry the system well into the generation. Truth be told, whatever comes next in Japan (Health, Music, whatever) will probably only end up competing with Wii Sports the way new DS games compete with Brain Age and stuff.FlightOfHeaven said:
I didn't know the word 'rockist'. Interesting. What I find a little pathetic among gamers and journalists is the fact that they feel 'dirty' to like a console that is popular to the mainstream audience..dmc said:
There has always been a paradox among gamers : on one hand they would like to be considered better than geeks, but on the other hand they want to remain the 'happy few' in the gaming world. They're sad when <insert game aimed at hardcore gaming audience> bombs in the charts, but if it is a mainstream success then it suddenly becomes a non-game or whatever in their eyes...
I have friends who feel ashamed of all the cheesy Wii ads on TV, even though they own one or would like to. I personnally don't care. If Wii becomes a huge phenomenon, then we will get more games from developers (which means more bad games but more good games, a la Playstation 1/2 or GB), and I'm fine with that. I used to be in the 'other camp' back in the Saturn era, I was jealous and bitter of Playstation's success. Now I'm happy to finally play with successful systems. And I'm happy to be able to avoid buying an expensive HDTV...
FlightOfHeaven said:
Victory, can't stop a culture that does tv ratings from carrying that same mentality over to games and their sales. Sony needs games, but isn't that what people of the platform already says it has I thought it was a price drop though again dumb idea because nintendo can play that card too. HDTV install is still a huge minority when it gets anywhere near 40% then we can talk about how games should warrant their consideration as a standard. I was quite happy having a clear seperation between a closed box and a pc environment low and behold sony and ms to blur that line offering meager results with premium prices. When I went to higher resolutions with my 3dfx card it costed less 200$ and my game prices weren't an extra 10$ btw all my glide api products ran at 60fps something I don't see with these consoles as a standard. Love how next gen and hd get thrown around yet here we are in 2k7 whining about fps, aa, aa and general look of games is readily visible. If I have to question a system's power to see it's greatness then it's not impressive.
The big picture you tried painting about novelty is nothing new and quite tired. Wii is suddenly gonna wane in sales and all the while a 360 which has no sales in japan nor has really beaten ps2 sales in the us/europe is gonna blow up because it has what now? Lineup wise 360 and PS3 cannibilize each other more than Wii. PS3 is suppose to make a come back with that price? These systems needs to be at Wii price before they even have a sustainable base for 3rd parties.
So we didnt play real games until the Wiimote? Are games inferior just because they dont use the best control method available (using Dual Analog instead of M/K)? Guess what, I rather play a LucasArts Adventure with analog nub on PSP than playing a mediocre Point&Click adventure with a mouse!deepred said:
And physics, more complex worlds and advanced AI offer a new level of interaction too, IMO more interesting than the way you control the game.
They were controllers before the wiimote. They didn't wait for the Wii to evolve by the way. Interaction depends on the controller but also on the game design. So you can create innovative games with a traditionnal controller too, of course. Wiimote just made the evolution faster so that developpers really have no choice but to create new concepts. Sometimes (often) they fail... :\quetz67 said:
I didn't think the rockism ideology expected the mass market to be consumers?.dmc said:
Regardless, I prefer surreal, bizarre or strange for an overarching view of how many of the hardcore, developers and gaming media are reacting to Wii. Thanks though.
:lolFlightOfHeaven said:
You're completely ignoring the facts! Wii is selling over a million units per month during the slowest times of the year compared to ~500K (~600K being generous) for PS3 and 360 combined! These sales will only increase as more games are released and as we move into busier retail periods. You're quick to point out PS3's and 360's killer line-up, but fail to realise Wii's is just as strong, and it has the potential mega sellers of Wii Health and Wii Music, truly mass market titles in the same way Wii Sports and Brain Training are.
Nothing about mass market consumer tastes indicates to me they want a more involving, more time consuming experiences in general. People's lives are complicated enough, simplicity is winning out big time. DS represents something simple and fun the mass market understands, and so does Wii. Nothing about 360 or PS3 is in line with what these consumers want imo, this is why they're having such a hard time.
FlightOfHeaven said:
I don't think they'll be noticing. Non-gamers, casual gamers, whatever you want to call them, aren't interested in games. That's why they are what they are. They'll have fun with the Wii Sports pack-in and not really give too much thought about buying other games.
darthbane2k
Banned
Redbeard said:
And how are those PS3 software sales doing at the moment in comparison to the Wii?
Date of Lies
Banned
Redbeard said:
The majority will buy other games as time passes.
way to miss the point
darthbane2k
Banned
awesome and fun gameplay? Yes,Aisenherz said:....wow, these games have awesome gameplay, action and a stunning story! Can't wait
hours upon hours off FMV and cutscenes? No.
darthbane2k said:
The real audience for PS3 hasn't bought into next-generation yet as a whole. It'll take big releases like GTA and one or two big price drops for that to happen, but it will happen (or they'll just buy 360s, either way). Those gamers didn't just vaporize in the last couple years.
darthbane2k
Banned
You mean they didnt buy Wiis?Redbeard said:
100mil 'real gamers' wait in limbo for a PS3 pricecut or the release of GTA4? LOL! yeah - whatever! I suppose Sony has this gen won then! Just like how the 'real gaming audience' bought PSPs and the 'casuals' bought no more DS software after Nintendogs!
Pureauthor
Member
Redbeard said:
Two things that disprove this theory, at least at face value:
a) DS software sales
b) PSP software sales
Pureauthor
Member
Aisenherz said:
'Know'. You didn't 'know'. 'Didn't knew that' doesn't make sense grammatically.
This is the big misconception imo.Redbeard said:
There are Sony fans, just as there are Nintendo and Xbox fans, these people make up a small audience, and there are mainstream, casual gamers, who aren't specific to any system.
The 'real audience for PS3', as you put it, doesn't exist. Every generation starts new, and has to fight for the casuals. So far PS3 is doing an abysmal job of attracting this group. Not only is the price point ridiculous, the games on the system are being seen as more of the same with slightly (in their opinion) improved graphics. These consumers have had 2 generations of the same kinds of games, and simply put, they want something new.
Even if Wii didn't exist, PS3 and 360 would be having a tough time. Trying to push a more complicated, more involving experience as a videogame system isn't working.
Pureauthor
Member
Redbeard said:
Elaborate.
ziran said:
There are fans of games. They aren't necessarily 'hardcore', they don't buy everything that comes out, but they know what they like. All the millions and millions that bought into GTA for the past I don't know how many years aren't suddenly going to not want the next one because there's a cheaper console with waggle out there.
Pureauthor
Member
Redbeard said:
Alright. Exactly how many million people bought GTA last gen?
Wolves Evolve
Member
FlightOfHeaven said:
Which is fine, but even the most optimistic of estimates put HD market coverage at 50% in 2012. (Goldman Sachs, Media Report ACG) Of course those upgrading are more likely to be gaming households, but the timing just doesn't match up. You've seen, we've all seen the reports about the number of 360 and PS3 owners who hook things up at normal resolution. People just aren't caring fast enough. Notice how all the countries - ALL - who wanted to introduce digital television in 2002, 2004, 2006 and so on, are still having to deal with the analogue switch-off being put off well into the next decade? What does that tell you?
They'll take centrestage in the living room? Well I use the Wii to watch Youtube on my television. And my 360's web browser is.... well, not working so good. But yes, Home and Live are good differentiating concepts that will show people how the consoles are different from each other. One is good at socialising online, the other is good at gaming together online. Which is so so so good for people who like to do that. I do think these things will have an impact going forward; but realistically BR and HD-DVD are already 2 years late in getting public interest, and the struggle to get people to care about them isn't going so well - anywhere.
I love the idea! I just don't know that it will be competitive in the market for most people.
Okay, so come into into this thread when you've played some Wii games... easy! What the Wiimote -actually- does to gameplay actually doesn't matter a great deal for what we're talking about, which is market share and market perception. Does it do things differently is less important than does it -feel- different. I have seen the Wii talked about on television here in Australia as the most advanced of the consoles because of its controller, and it is only incongruous if you are a hardcore gamer. To most people, that is absolutely true. Online leaderboards? What? They can release a cricket game as dumb as the Wii Sports baseball and in this country alone it would swallow games like Gears of War whole.
I think this is actually true enough, but not in terms of this year or next. The Wii has some serious problems in my book, but think about how little people care about HD. Nintendo could brand a television set for specific Wii use, call it "True Gaming HD" and get away with it. People don't know, people don't care, even after they have one. Slowly, this will change, but too late for anybody wanting to sell hi-def consoles.
Pureauthor said:
How should I know? Certainly more people than own PS3s.
Here San Andreas sells 12m by 2005:
http://videogames1.mtv.com/pages/gamespace/story.php?id=6119634&pid=925634
I'm sure you can dig up the others.
And to elaborate on why the PSP/DS comparison is a crock, it assumes the same people who care about console games care about spending money on the exact same experience in portable form.
Pureauthor
Member
Redbeard said:
Now let's assume every last one of those has determined in his mind that he must own GTAIV. (That is to say, none of the people who bought GTA bought it because they had a PS2 already, and just wanted a new game.)
That done, let's further assume that none of the current owners of the X360/PS3 are part of that crowd, or at least, not to any appreciable degree. (That is to say, the vast majority of the approx. 11 million PS3/360 owners don't care about GTAIV.)
Now, let us further assume that the people who want GTAIV are a) demanding it relatively close to launch (the time period where'd it make the biggest appreciable spike in sales), and b) willing to part with the cash necessary to own a system and GTAIV. (That is to say, they consider GTAIV a killer app worth USD 410 at least.)
Of course, these are all ludicrous assumptions to make, and my point is that just because a bunch of people bought GTA last generation, you can't make any presumptions to how successful it'll make a console with GTA this generation.
PSP has plenty of games that aren't watered down console pap. The issue here is perception.
Just as the Wii has debateably the weakest software library out right now, and yet market perception places it firmly as the 'new, hot, awesome thing to own'. And it has strong software sales too.
Pureauthor said:
Time will tell I guess. Ultimately I think gamers, hardcore, casual, or otherwise are going to want a gaming machine with their favorite franchises on it. Whether they wait years for a next-gen price drop or buy a PS3/360 right away, they aren't going to hop on the Wii bandwagon just because it's there and forget about all the series they've been following for the past five years.
Starchasing
Member
I think every marketing 101 class starts with the same example. An engineer and a sales person argue about a new product:
Engineer: " This product is hot it outputs 480p 720p 1024p all in native mode with pixel rerfect colour and it includes hdmi and dvi and blue ray adapator"
Salesman : Yeah but it is too bulky, people like pretty and non bulky thing so they can put them in their living rooms and brag to their neighbourghs"
blah blah....
Engineer : " But this Tv has the best specs ever!!! it will sell truckloads "
Sales man: " People dont understand specs"
People want convenience, thats why they prefer MP3 to superior sounding CDs. Thats why Laserdisc went nowhere. In the long term people will choose function over form. Thats why Home is such an stupid idea.
anyhow, back to the topic
I like Nintendomination as i like the direction they are taking. I enjoy Zelda and I enjoy Brain Training. I play lots of Wii PLay and Wii Sports with my GF. I am also playing lots of Mario Strikers lately. Great game...
Keep it on Nintendo!!!
I had a Wii and sold it. I just didn't have the patience to see them churn out more incarnations of the same old franchises. I was never a Nintendo fan to start with so I don't see the huge impact they're making on gaming (if they even are). It's all about perception anyway.
I love my DS, but I'd hardly call sales success with the Wii and DS industry shaping developments.
I love my DS, but I'd hardly call sales success with the Wii and DS industry shaping developments.
Crayon Shinchan
Aquafina Fanboy
The most ridiculous thing is how much the internet has been shitted up by Wii fans chanting 'it prints money' at every opportunity.
That Soul Calibur 4 thread. Not just 1, but a multitude of crazy wii nerds suggesting their waggle stick was good enough for use in a solid fighting game.
Well shit. A sixaxis has a motion sensor; guess we can port Wii Sports over to it and get it working as well!
Wiifans would be demanding Starcraft 2 on the Wii if they even thought they could have an inkling of a chance of suggesting it without been catapulted into the sun.
It's surreal to see Wii fans linking the PS2 with the Wii. Constantly!
Apart from market support at this point in their lifetimes, the two are NOTHING like each other. One is a very traditional console that is on par performance wise as its competitors, and also costs the same as its competitors.
The other has the wonderful casual hooking waggle mechanism, along with last gen hardware performance and a substantially lower price point then the other two. The sense of entitlement... for games that simply don't suit its hook, or are awkward/incompatible with its control scheme, is what's mind boggling.
That Soul Calibur 4 thread. Not just 1, but a multitude of crazy wii nerds suggesting their waggle stick was good enough for use in a solid fighting game.
Well shit. A sixaxis has a motion sensor; guess we can port Wii Sports over to it and get it working as well!
Wiifans would be demanding Starcraft 2 on the Wii if they even thought they could have an inkling of a chance of suggesting it without been catapulted into the sun.
It's surreal to see Wii fans linking the PS2 with the Wii. Constantly!
Apart from market support at this point in their lifetimes, the two are NOTHING like each other. One is a very traditional console that is on par performance wise as its competitors, and also costs the same as its competitors.
The other has the wonderful casual hooking waggle mechanism, along with last gen hardware performance and a substantially lower price point then the other two. The sense of entitlement... for games that simply don't suit its hook, or are awkward/incompatible with its control scheme, is what's mind boggling.
You're putting way too much emphasis on individual franchises. To the mass market, the overall experience a console gives is far more important, to the extent they're prepared to give up things they've previously liked if there's something which fills the same need on a more appealing console, even if it's not the same type of game.Redbeard said:
You're obviously not agreeing what I'm saying, but it isn't baseless, I'm talking about what's happened countless times before. For example, 12 million people bought Mario 64 so why did Sunshine sell less than half? The key games in a generation are invariably new every time.
The DS/PSP comparison is apt because they exhibit the same differences in approach to creating a mass market videogame system as Wii vs. PS3.
DS is about simple, fun gaming on the move, Wii is about simple, fun gaming socially in the home. PSP is about a convergent multimedia device which also plays games, and so is PS3 (and to a lesser extent 360).
Wii's success is mimicking DS, PS3's is similar to PSP's, in the sense it's a long way off the market leader and its sw sales are poor.
I'm talking about the worldwide system selling potential. Wii's line up is unquestionably as strong as 360's or PS3's but you're obviously having difficultly coming to terms with this :lolPrine said:
Considering change is the only constant in life, it's always amazing to see how resistant people are to it. And it's not as if 'hardcore' gaming is going to disappear, it's just not going to be the mass market 'true version of gaming' the hardcore expected it to be.
Starchasing
Member
Crayon Shinchan said:
yeah it prints money, and it will have very strong 3rd oarty support. Have you seen tghat Ninja Gaiden DS. You know that the same thing will happen with Wii. SOul Calinur will be great on Wii, unless you take it as a competitive sport. For those of us that take it as a game it will be great. RTS will also come to Wii, just like they are coming to DS. Just wait and see.
Also wimote+nunchuck can substitute a normal controler in almost every game
Game genres have dissapeared before and will dissapear again. i love text adventure back in the old times. I also love Shoot em ups and beat em ups. What makes you think that games like MGS wont become boring to new generations? I see a trend where short games played in short burst are becoming more sales prominent. Games like MGS may become too boring with their long FMV
Pureauthor
Member
Starchasing said:
None of those genres have disappeared. Fell from prominence, yes, but not disappeared.
Which is exactly why people bellyaching about the Wii 'destroying' gaming are full of it.
titiklabingapat
Member
Prine said:
I think I still hear/read people doing that to Wii Sports.
Starchasing
Member
Pureauthor said:
When was the last text adventure comercially launched????
Pureauthor
Member
Starchasing said:
If you're referring to text adventures that used text exclusively, then you need to find a PC.
And who cares about 'commercially' launched?