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Don't bring a crowbar to a gunfight

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I really don't get what the argument is here

The guy had a crowbar and went to attack a police officer with it after being told to drop the weapon and after they tried to subdue him non-lethally

Yes, it's a shame that it couldn't have ended differently but I'd rather read about a smacked up junkie getting shot down as he tried to attack than a police officer being smashed over the head with a crowbar and losing all mental capacity.
 
I think this particular sentiment needs to be addressed.
Thank you, this thread is full of people who either
1) Hold little or no value for human life.
2) Think the life of a damn dog is greater than that of a humans.
3) Think police officers are the ultimate unquestionable authority.
4) Think lethal force should be a first option instead of a last one.
5) Side with officers who even lie on the police report even though there is a video showing otherwise.


IMO, the dude is clearly out of his mind and is trying to walk away from the scene. Cops are trying to arrest him, and they use the taser. It just pisses him off, and he raises the crowbar as if to say "Back off, cop!" And then he dies.

Exactly what I saw.


The argument basically comes down to some believing the Cops could have done more to end the situation in a non lethal manor (including those that filmed it) while others are fine with how it ended.
 
It really doesn't look like he was going to swing.

And I disagree, very strongly.. and wonder WTF you guys think moving towards someone in a swinging stance means.

Anyway, that isn't what I said at all.

Puddles said:
simply defying a police officer is a death sentence.

Yes, yes you did.

I hypothesized that the only reason they would move in that close to an armed suspect was because they knew that deadly force was available to them if they needed it.

I didn't comment on that aspect of your post whatsoever.
 
ITT: A cop tazing you gives you the right to then turn around and threaten them with a deadly weapon...

And the cops are supposed to do nothing.

Honestly one of the worst threads I've ever read.
 
I'm interpreting his aggressive stance as defiance and not as the beginning of an attack.

If he was going to swing, he would have swung. Someone who wants to hit a person doesn't do that kind of Bugs Bunny windup.

Again..

What you said was that they shot him simply for defying an order.

Ignoring that that order included them holding a deadly weapon in their hand at the very least.

Even if you contend that somehow the Police were supposed to know "he wasn't going to swing", your original comment is extremely misleading as NO ONE is advocating the Police shooting you for simply "defying an order"... outside of that one silly post you quoted, that didn't have much weight to it.

He was not shot for defying an order, he was shot for defying an order while holding a deadly weapon, turning towards a cop, and moving towards that cop in a threatening fashion.
 
Again..

What you said was that they shot him simply for defying an order.

Ignoring that that order included them holding a deadly weapon in their hand at the very least.

Even if you contend that somehow the Police were supposed to know "he wasn't going to swing", your original comment is extremely misleading as NO ONE is advocating the Police shooting you for simply "defying an order"... outside of that one silly post you quoted, that didn't have much weight to it.

He was not shot for defying an order, he was shot for defying an order while holding a deadly weapon, turning towards a cop, and moving towards that cop in a threatening fashion.

Fair enough.

There was a lot more to my post than that unfortunately-phrased sentence.

I still contend that the way this situation was escalated led to a life-or-death showdown that could have been avoided.
 
Fair enough.

There was a lot more to my post than that unfortunately-phrased sentence.

I still contend that the way this situation was escalated led to a life-or-death showdown that could have been avoided.

It definitely could have been avoided...had the guy not put himself into that situation.

If he wasn't a piece of shit scumbag, the cops wouldn't have been there to fire those 10 shots.
 
Fair enough.

There was a lot more to my post than that unfortunately-phrased sentence.

Cool.

I still contend that the way this situation was escalated led to a life-or-death showdown that could have been avoided.

Certainly. Could have been avoided by the guy.. I dunno.. not showing up at a Carls Jr. and swinging around a deadly weapon..

And then.. I dunno.. maybe.. dropping the weapon when the cops showed up..

Or.. maybe.. simply NOT moving towards the cop in a threatening fashion?

Other than that? I just really don't know about all of these "what ifs".. the cops are standing outside, unsure of what is going on.. and the guy walks out past them.. they have little to no time to come up with some plan for what to do.. They aim both non-lethal and lethal weapons at him... the guy keeps walking.. with a deadly weapon...

The cops HAVE to stop him, it's their duty. You can't let someone walk away from a crime like that with the weapon still in their hands. The guy is even walking right towards where the person with the video is.. and that person is talking to other people near him.. again, cops are supposed to let a guy wielding a weapon walk towards the general public?

So then they attempt to tase him.. probably a good idea?

UNFORTUNATELY the taser failed.. and then even more unfortunately, the guys reaction was to turn around and threaten the cop.

You guys act like he had some right to be "mad" that he got tased. That's how your posts come across.. and it really seems a little ridiculous.

As someone who has been TERRORIZED by a criminal with a deadly weapon in their hands.. fuck that shit.
 
I often come down against the cops in these sorts of stories, but the guy was shifting his weight for a swing. I don't think the dog-holding cop expected that and by the time he fired, it'd have been too late for the dog to stop the attack.

Tragic, but you don't swing something potentially deadly at a cop while they have guns pointed at you and I don't fault the first shooter for shooting.
 
Certainly. Could have been avoided by the guy.. I dunno.. not showing up at a Carls Jr. and swinging around a deadly weapon..

And then.. I dunno.. maybe.. dropping the weapon when the cops showed up..

Or.. maybe.. simply NOT moving towards the cop in a threatening fashion?

Other than that? I just really don't know about all of these "what ifs".. the cops are standing outside, unsure of what is going on.. and the guy walks out past them.. they have little to no time to come up with some plan for what to do.. They aim both non-lethal and lethal weapons at him... the guy keeps walking.. with a deadly weapon...

The cops HAVE to stop him, it's their duty. You can't let someone walk away from a crime like that with the weapon still in their hands. The guy is even walking right towards where the person with the video is.. and that person is talking to other people near him.. again, cops are supposed to let a guy wielding a weapon walk towards the general public?

So then they attempt to tase him.. probably a good idea?

UNFORTUNATELY the taser failed.. and then even more unfortunately, the guys reaction was to turn around and threaten the cop.

You guys act like he had some right to be "mad" that he got tased. That's how your posts come across.. and it really seems a little ridiculous.

As someone who has been TERRORIZED by a criminal with a deadly weapon in their hands.. fuck that shit.

Maybe you're right.

I'm probably just being a typical bleeding-heart liberal on this issue.
 
Dude I saw it with my own eyes. Have you ever killed a man? It's not something to take lightly.

Ok? I don't understand what part of my argument you're responding to. I didn't imply you were a liar and I certainly didn't suggest killing someone was something to be taken lightly. Your anecdote doesn't establish some broad truism about people being shot.
 
Is taser the only non-lethal thing they could've used?

Theres pepper spray, bean bags loaded into shotguns(these can be lethal though) rubber bullets, flashbangs, guns that shoot nets, and good ole nightstick.

However, this guy had smashed all the windows of the burger joint, then decided to take a swing at two cops and a police dog, while the cops all had guns pointed at him. In a situation like that, he's a dead man, when someone start causing random chaos like that and start endangering the lives of others, deadly force is unfortunately the only option.
 
So sad. Apparently the cop shot the guy one time, and it didn't even phase him?

Not sure what the cop was using, probably a .40 Glock. Adrenaline is a hell of a drug in these situations. Unless a hit incapacitated a vital system right away, there would be plenty of fight left in him. The officer fought after being shot several times as well. Impressive considering that M1 was probably chambered in .30 Springfield.

And this is why officers will fire rapidly and try to hit as many times as possible. One round may not be enough to even incapacitate an offender. Sorry "shoot 'em in the leg" crowd. It's just how it is.
 
Thank you, this thread is full of people who either

1) Hold little or no value for human life.

I hold a great value for human life. It's rude that you would come in here and post something like that.

If anything, this shows that the kid held little to no value for his own life.


2) Think the life of a damn dog is greater than that of a humans.

That dog is not only a working dog, but that cops pet that he brings home every night/day. Yes, sorry, but that dog's life is worth more than someone who just committed a bunch of crimes and is abut to hurt an innocent policeman.

3) Think police officers are the ultimate unquestionable authority.

I really dislike police officers, but, they are LAW ENFORCEMENT. This guy is BREAKING THE LAW.

4) Think lethal force should be a first option instead of a last one.

They were being NON LETHAL by asking him to put his hands up and by using the taser. He then proceeded to attack one of the officers, and was shot before he swung. Is the officer not allowed to defend his partner who looks like he is about to get swing at?

5) Side with officers who even lie on the police report even though there is a video showing otherwise.

The video shows a guy about to swing a weapon at a police officer who seems to not notice, and his partner saved him from getting hit. If he wasn't about to swing, then why raise the weapon and step toward the officer quickly as if you were going to?

Exactly what I saw.

I see a bunch of delusional people posting about how this kid wasn't going to hit the cop; even though he turned around, raised his weapon, and lunged toward him like he was.
 
Thank you, this thread is full of people who either
1) Hold little or no value for human life.
2) Think the life of a damn dog is greater than that of a humans.
3) Think police officers are the ultimate unquestionable authority.
4) Think lethal force should be a first option instead of a last one.
5) Side with officers who even lie on the police report even though there is a video showing otherwise.


Exactly what I saw.


The argument basically comes down to some believing the Cops could have done more to end the situation in a non lethal manor (including those that filmed it) while others are fine with how it ended.

2. why do you keep bringing that up? we're not even talking about that (though I could give two damn about some drugged up guy going around swinging clubs at people/property)

4. lethal force was not the first option used, first it was warnings, then the taser, then the barking dog was with the officers the whole time(which you have a irrational hatred of), he still tried to wind up and take a swing. what more do you want? batarangs? it happened too quick for anything else to happen.
 
http://youtu.be/bY5ioBvrYIg



Excessive? I didn't see the guy swing twice. Looks like he was about to before he took about 10 shots.

To be clear, I'm not questioning the use force on the armed man. I'm questioning the use of that many shots fired. Not to mention, the attack dog could of been used.

That punk made the wrong move, it's completely his own fault.

If he was already tasered and it didn't work then they needed to put him down quickly because he's probably on something fierce like crystal meth, the dog wouldn't have worked, he could have killed the dog with one swing, worse yet, he could have killed the closest police officer with one swing.

When a whole bunch of cops are pointing their guns at you, you drop your crowbar right that second and fucking get on your stomach like a punk and you don't try anything funny.
 
I see a bunch of delusional people posting about how this kid wasn't going to hit the cop; even though he turned around, raised his weapon, and lunged toward him like he was.

You can't prove that he was certainly going to swing at the cop before he was shot. Your opinion is no better than those 'delusional' people. You should be able to see that.

The guy was shot in an otherwise interesting situation. I wouldn't blame the cops, I mean, this is just an odd circumstance. To me they come off in good standing...granted that they clearly over-shot. He didn't have to die here.
 
Theres pepper spray, bean bags loaded into shotguns(these can be lethal though) rubber bullets, flashbangs, guns that shoot nets, and good ole nightstick.

However, this guy had smashed all the windows of the burger joint, then decided to take a swing at two cops and a police dog, while the cops all had guns pointed at him. In a situation like that, he's a dead man, when someone start causing random chaos like that and start endangering the lives of others, deadly force is unfortunately the only option.

not all police departments have those tools (specially a net gun) or have the budget for it. flashbangs in an open setting would probably not work as well and the good ole nightstick means you have to get up close which is not useful until you have the suspect disarmed (plus if they club the shit out of the guy, they can claim police brutality anyway)
 
You can't prove that he was certainly going to swing at the cop before he was shot. Your opinion is no better than those 'delusional' people. You should be able to see that.

The guy was shot in an otherwise interesting situation. I wouldn't blame the cops, I mean, this is just an odd circumstance. To me they come off in good standing...granted that they clearly over-shot. He didn't have to die here.

There's no overshooting here, when you have to bring someone down, you don't count how many bullets, you shoot until he goes down, until you eliminate the threat to yourself, the other cops, and any nearby civilians.

The choice was his, if he didn't want to die, he should have dropped the crowbar and get on his stomach quickly, but he didn't, he made the decision to assume a threatening position with a weapon at a bunch of cops with their weapons drawn, even after he was tasered, he wouldn't take the hint, the cop was justified.
 
There's no overshooting here, when you have to bring someone down, you don't count how many bullets, you shoot until he goes down, until you eliminate the threat to yourself, the other cops, and any nearby civilians.

The choice was his, if he didn't want to die, he should have dropped the crowbar and get on his stomach quickly, but he didn't, he made the decision to assume a threatening position with a weapon at a bunch of cops with their weapons drawn, even after he was tasered, he wouldn't take the hint, the cop was justified.

I can see that he made a choice to die by not putting down his weapon. The cops threatened him with their guns after all and they were serious about it. I'm not saying that the cops should have shot, but that they were definitely incited to when he entered that stance regardless of whether he was going to swing or not. That's what counts to me.

I don't buy your second point to be honest. They shot the shit out of him...maybe some different cops would have stopped after a few bullets but this guy didn't. I'm just sad to see that he died.
 
I love how people that weren't there and have no training in law enforcement (or the law, period) try to analyze these situations as if they would have handled the situation so much better. Motherfucker shook off a taser, that should tell you right away he had to have been on something. In that case, non-lethal take down methods become almost entirely ineffectual as he doesn't feel pain. Do you really think if he can shake off a taser that pepper spray is gonna phase him? Would you want to get in a brawl with a guy armed with a crowbar that's essentially impervious to pain? How effective is a canine really going to be if the guy doesn't give a fuck about getting chewed up? If you had your gun drawn and he was about to take a swing at your partner, would you really just stand there and let him get beat down?

A lot of holier than thou armchair quarterbacks in this thread. The cops got put in a bad situation because the criminal put them in that situation. I don't think anyone here can judge their actions as excessive or uncalled for.

I don't buy your second point to be honest. They shot the shit out of him...maybe some different cops would have stopped after a few bullets but this guy didn't. I'm just sad to see that he died.

You're missing the point. Cops don't shoot to wound, they shoot to kill. You best ensure a kill by unloading your clip. Whether or not their training should be that black and white or not is beside the point, that's what they're trained to do.
 
not all police departments have those tools (specially a net gun) or have the budget for it. flashbangs in an open setting would probably not work as well and the good ole nightstick means you have to get up close which is not useful until you have the suspect disarmed (plus if they club the shit out of the guy, they can claim police brutality anyway)

I agree, I wasn't implying they would have them, just mentioning the ones I know of. In a perfect world every cop car would have a net gun. And would pass out blunts.
 
I don't buy your second point to be honest. They shot the shit out of him...maybe some different cops would have stopped after a few bullets but this guy didn't. I'm just sad to see that he died.

Well they don't know if he had another weapon. If he steps back and pulls out a gun, then what? The second 5 was because he was still a threat.
 
I can see that he made a choice to die by not putting down his weapon. The cops threatened him with their guns after all and they were serious about it. I'm not saying that the cops should have shot, but that they were definitely incited to when he entered that stance regardless of whether he was going to swing or not. That's what counts to me.

I don't buy your second point to be honest. They shot the shit out of him...maybe some different cops would have stopped after a few bullets but this guy didn't. I'm just sad to see that he died.

How many bullets would be considered "a few"? You basically empty your weapon as quickly as you can and hope he's going to be down by the time you have to reload.

I'm not sad they put him down that way, because it means no cop was hurt in the process, the last thing I want to see is another cop getting killed like that deputy in Georgia because he hesitated and took too long to take the necessary actions.
 
Hang on, is this guy holding the gun sideways?

UFZog.jpg
 
AS I previously posted, a guy was shot and HIT 27 times and his brother 19 times by a stronger round from state troopers
And the two still managed to kill 2 of the troopers, while NOT on drugs
Go and tell the two dead officers families they shot too much.

Most people dont really know how bullets work, other than you shoot them and people say 'AAAgh' and fall over when they hit like in the movies
Yet they feel they know exactly how many it takes, based on fiction
 
If you keep watching the video after the guy goes down, you can see that three other officers arrive on the scene within seconds.

Had the first two officers fallen back a few meters after the taser had no effect, they certainly could have resolved the situation without lethal force. Backup was right there.
 
Thank you, this thread is full of people who either
1) Hold little or no value for human life.
2) Think the life of a damn dog is greater than that of a humans.
3) Think police officers are the ultimate unquestionable authority.
4) Think lethal force should be a first option instead of a last one.
5) Side with officers who even lie on the police report even though there is a video showing otherwise.
6) Stand around and terrorize crows all day.
 
If you keep watching the video after the guy goes down, you can see that three other officers arrive on the scene within seconds.

Had the first two officers fallen back a few meters after the taser had no effect, they certainly could have resolved the situation without lethal force. Backup was right there.

The officer that fired the tazer did not know that it had no effect as you see him go for his handcuffs. So he was caught off guard and defenseless and that was when the crowbar guy lunged. You can see the "Oh shit I am going to die" look on his face as he stumbles back. Your idea was probably the original plan but things never go as planned with lunatics.
 
The officer that fired the tazer did not know that it had no effect as you see him go for his handcuffs. So he was caught off guard and defenseless and that was when the crowbar guy lunged. You can see the "Oh shit I am going to die" look on his face as he stumbles back. Your idea was probably the original plan but things never go as planned with lunatics.

I guess if shit had to go down, better to err on the side of an officer not taking the hit.

Fucking PCP.
 
If you keep watching the video after the guy goes down, you can see that three other officers arrive on the scene within seconds.

Had the first two officers fallen back a few meters after the taser had no effect, they certainly could have resolved the situation without lethal force. Backup was right there.

What would you like the "backup" to do? Tackle him when he's holding a weapon ready to strike?

The man was holding a crowbar and walking away, you don't know whether he's going to make a run for it, you don't know whether he's going to turn around and attack you or someone else, you can't try to get in close because he can potentially hit you and kill you with the crowbar in one hit, you have no idea how strong he is, especially when he just shook off a taser shot to the face.

If the taser doesn't have an effect how the fuck would you bring him down with non-lethal force safely? And why should the police officers put themselves in mortal danger when they have already tried to get the guy to drop his weapon verbally and with a taser to the face?
 
Does anyone on here realize that all state and local agencies in the US that EMPLOY POLICE DOGS (yes, EMPLOY, a canine handler receives a salary commiserate to the training and welfare of the dog under his care...) grant them the same protection and rights as human LEOs? And that police dogs carry BADGES, just like LEOs? That their handlers consider them LAW ENFORCEMENT PARTNERS? And that a police dog injured in the line of duty is considered AN OFFICER DOWN?

Some of your Gaffers can froth all you want to about this situation, but the honest truth of the matter is this. If the perp is swinging or threatening to swing anything with sufficient man-killing force behind it, a canine handler is NOT SENDING IN THE FUCKING DOG SO THAT HE/SHE CAN GET THEMSELVES KILLED. He will restrain the animal and respond as any normal LEO would to protect himself, his PARTNER, and his fellow officers.... IN THAT ORDER. The dog is there to assist in takedowns against an assailant where the threat of bodily harm (both the humans AND dogs) is considered minimal.

So... yes. The dogs life is actually worth more than a coked-up dusthead pissed off voilent criminal human being. Go cry about it elsewhere.

Have you actually seem an attack dog? I have 3 pittbulls, 2 of then trained as guards. I have a big house and the only thing burglars around here respect is an angry dog.

Any attack, guard or police dog that couldn't take that guy down is not only being trained by inept handlers but not fit for service at all.

The first thing an attack dog goes for is the arm/hand of the suspect. They're trained to incapacitate, not kill so they are not trained to go to the neck, head.

There's no excuse for the officer holding the dog. He should have unleashed him, that's what they're trained for and believe me as soon as a dog like that is set upon you there's no way you're not turning your attention towards him and walking away unscathed. If you're not holding a knife or a handgun there's almost zero chance that you will be able to seriously injure a trained dog. And even if you do, he won't release you until he's commanded or dead.

And I said it before, the dude in question was not a coked -up dusthead criminal. He was a guy having a nervous breakdown by witnesses account.

The sole point in police dogs is to first engage in situations dangerous to the officers, second to disarm and subdue suspects/criminals without killing then.

If you're going to be worrying about if your dog is going to be injured when he's taken into action there's no point in wasting money to train then.

And I say that as a dog person. Besides my pittbulls I have 2 mini pinchers at home.

AS I previously posted, a guy was shot and HIT 27 times and his brother 19 times by a stronger round from state troopers
And the two still managed to kill 2 of the troopers, while NOT on drugs

Go and tell the two dead officers families they shot too much.

Most people dont really know how bullets work, other than you shoot them and people say 'AAAgh' and fall over when they hit like in the movies
Yet they feel they know exactly how many it takes, based on fiction

So this is the norm now? Everyone takes 20, 30 shots to be taken down? It's funny because a gaffer who served in the US army has seem first hand, right in front of him the effects that a 9.mm gunshot has on a person and everyone defending the amount of shots seem to ignore his testimonial.

If he didn't want to be killed he shouldn't have acted like such a scumbag. Just another useless piece of trash off this earth.

This kind of post pisses me off. Read the whole fucking story before you give your 2 cents.

I love how people that weren't there and have no training in law enforcement (or the law, period) try to analyze these situations as if they would have handled the situation so much better.

What kind of law enforcement training do you, or anyone defending the officers have, to be claiming that the situation was handled adequately?
 
So this is the norm now? Everyone takes 20, 30 shots to be taken down?

When handgun encounters conclude with a suspect fatality, the number of rounds employed to fell the suspect appear to be high, with the Portland study suggesting an average of 9.3 hits per slain suspect.

http://www.theppsc.org/Staff_Views/Aveni/OIS.pdf

It just tends in that direction. The number of rounds here isn't aberrant.

I assume, incidentally, that you're not advising a fire - wait and see - fire again - wait and see - fire again - wait and see method.

And I don't know how MWS can post without explaining how he thinks a blow from a crowbar merely "risks bruising".

Then again, if his posts run like "THIS THREAD IS FULL OF....", then it's best if he pipes down.
 
http://www.theppsc.org/Staff_Views/Aveni/OIS.pdf

It just tends in that direction. The number of rounds here isn't aberrant.

I assume, incidentally, that you're not advising a fire - wait and see - fire again - wait and see - fire again - wait and see method.

My issue with how the officers handled the situation was that they should have used the police dog and that the last 5 shots were not needed. I'm not arguing that the first cop was wrong, he probably acted to defend his partner in a split second.

From the video and the links posted it seems that after the first 5 shots the guy tried to back off/ turn around from the officers. There was no need to shoot him again.
 
After watching the video, here is my take on it:

* They were not expecting the suspect to shrug off the taser. At 0:41, you can see the 2nd officer put his head down to get his handcuffs and 3 seconds later, the suspect is lunging toward him with the weapon.

* Now, I can't tell the distance between the two of them, but it looks very close - at least, striking distance. It freaks him out enough that he hurries backwards with a stumble.

* At this point, the 2nd officer fires 5 shots. The dog was on his far side and I'm no expert so I have no idea whether the dog could have made it in time. Maybe the 2nd officer was worried his partner was going to fall down and get attacked by the suspect, thus requiring immediate action.

I do know that there is about 1 second between when he starts going after the officer and gets shot at.

I'm not sure why we shots another round, but I wasn't there and I can't see what the suspect was doing. I do know that if I was the taser officer, I would be glad my partner took quick action.




At this point, 5 seconds have passed
 
Also, if the way they handled the situation was OK, then why they're opening an investigation?

It's obvious that many mistakes were made. When you make mistakes at home or at work you're supposed to be respond for then, why it should be different with police officers?

I'm not asking for then to be arrested, but I wouldn't like to have inept police officers guarding my neighborhood.
 
Also, if the way they handled the situation was OK, then why they're opening an investigation?

It's obvious that many mistakes were made. When you make mistakes at home or at work you're supposed to be respond for then, why it should be different with police officers?

I'm not asking for then to be arrested, but I wouldn't like to have inept police officers guarding my neighborhood.
Because there is always an investigation whenever lethal force is used. Standard procedure.
 
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