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[SamVimes]

I'm not sure I understand the first paragraph. How is pushing early going to screw you over in the long run? I thought getting towers before your opponents granted you a significant gold advantage as well as apply more pressure on them and gain you more map control?

Depends on the lane, if you have an hard carry you can't do that because even if he gets last hit on the tower if there is no farm to take on the other lanes he will have to jungle which unless you're a nuker with low mana costs (SF) or have battlefury it's really inefficient.
Obviously in most pubs there are at least two carries (most likely one top and one bot) so you won't have any space to farm, plus if your teammates already showed that they don't know the first thing about creep equilibrium most likely they're all gonna be pushed.

 

[Technosteve]

Real Talk, mechanically Dota 2 is the superior game vs Diablo 3. Real Real Talk, I fucking can't quit diablo 3 cause I like loot games.

Future Talk Dota 2 with item drops game of the forever.

 

[Archie]

Ironically, Dota 2 will have loot drops when it is officially released.

 

[Sanjay]

Darer must be really confident that they'll get an international invite. I don't get this move either since they have been playing incredibly well since the roster shakeup.

Play well, shake up roster, play bad. Yeahhhhhh guys this is what we needed.

People nuking lanes that you have nicely pulled up and stable is one of my biggest fucking annoyances.

People are so short sighted when they see a lane and just nuke it for the quick gold. I mean, who would want a consistently pulled up safe lane to free farm in, right?

Go mid.

 

[Phandy]

Real Talk, mechanically Dota 2 is the superior game vs Diablo 3. Real Real Talk, I fucking can't quit diablo 3 cause I like loot games.

Future Talk Dota 2 with item drops game of the forever.

DOTA2 has the best RPG combat in any game ever.

I can't wait till the source stuff for DOTA comes out so people can start doing unique stuff with it.
I could come up with an interesting single player or co-op experience, just using whats already in the game. Imagine it being a 5 player co op game similar to Diablo. It would be so easy to come up with interesting bosses/battles by just giving neutrals or heroes certain items and abilities. Imagine if you had to take on Rosh as a group at like level 5 but Rosh has shit like a BKB or blink ability and a proper aggro system.

Like the stuff going on in Starcraft2 is pretty cool.


Edit Sanjay; I'd probably end up having the sidelaners come to gank, fail and then nuke the lane anyways.

 

[pieatorium]

http://www.twitch.tv/beyondthesummit?utm_campaign=live_embed_click&utm_source=streamdota2.com?utm_campaign=live_embed_click&utm_source=streamdota2.com

AL vs EHOME starting soon.

 

[Sanjay]

Someone was kind enough to gift me the DOTA 2 beta and having someone in an official capacity take the time and effort to type

Justice is here! Hide, thus people will fall.

I'd probably end up having the sidelaners come to gank, fail and then nuke the lane anyways.

What you do is, go side lanes to gank and if it fails, nuke their lanes and push it then go back to mid.

 

[njr]

The player base is really something. Yesterday I just experienced someone on my team getting jealous of my progression as a sniper. He flips out because I got a desolator first rather than a blade of shadows. Then he throws the game because I got fed when the enemy team decided to push too far.

Another game before that, on my team we had a Nature's prophet trying to trap us and a tiny trying to hurl us in when the enemy team pushes us. They we're really bad a trolling since they couldn't get me to die even after all that. They did however get me to abandon the game so they probably got what they wanted. I'm tired of playing with these people, I can't wait until reporting actually does something.

 

[Gully State]

What are some one off tricks that you guys have seen?

IE-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-vYyOP5Y6Gk

 

[Finalow]

Ironically, Dota 2 will have loot drops when it is officially released.

that's cool.

 

[Swag]

Depends on the lane, if you have an hard carry you can't do that because even if he gets last hit on the tower if there is no farm to take on the other lanes he will have to jungle which unless you're a nuker with low mana costs (SF) or have battlefury it's really inefficient.
Obviously in most pubs there are at least two carries (most likely one top and one bot) so you won't have any space to farm, plus if your teammates already showed that they don't know the first thing about creep equilibrium most likely they're all gonna be pushed.

I don't understand the big deal here, if your lane is pushed go pull a neutral camp, it immediately sets your equilibrium close to your tower again, if a mid comes to gank and fails it's at least 2 waves of EXP and gold lost, so they take 1 wave of gold and 1/3 exp ( usually ) to make up for the lost time. In the long run it's more beneficial, because your mid isn't under leveled / farmed as much as the opponent they were facing.

How does having 2 carries automatically ensure that you won't have any space to farm, in most situations one is a late game and one is a early-mid, there are 3 lanes, and a jungle to farm if you need, and chances are the mid hero ( provided it's not a farm mid hero ) is busy with your non carry heroes / the secondary carry trying to gank & push.

 

[SamVimes]

I don't understand the big deal here, if your lane is pushed go pull a neutral camp, it immediately sets your equilibrium close to your tower again, if a mid comes to gank and fails it's at least 2 waves of EXP and gold lost, so they take 1 wave of gold and 1/3 exp ( usually ) to make up for the lost time. In the long run it's more beneficial, because your mid isn't under leveled / farmed as much as the opponent they were facing.

How does having 2 carries automatically ensure that you won't have any space to farm, in most situations one is a late game and one is a early-mid, there are 3 lanes, and a jungle to farm if you need, and chances are the mid hero ( provided it's not a farm mid hero ) is busy with your non carry heroes / the secondary carry trying to gank & push.

Pulling doesn't immediately sets your equilibrium close to the tower, it requires (if you're lucky with the timing for the gank) at the very best you lose almost a creepwave worth of exp assuming the pull is already stacked and your support is at the camp at xx:15-xx:45, at worst almost 80 seconds and a couple of waves.

I disagree that it's worth it in the long run because i'll take most mids underlevel over say a Void without farm (unless they're farming mid, but then they should leave the lane only for ganks they're completely sure they can get). Most mids (unless they're nightstalker or something like that) are gonna sit mid again at least until the next rune so you're still losing farm and again, if he nuked your wave why would he leave you the farm mid?

I understand that failing a gank can feel really bad because you didn't accomplish anything and the temptation to get farm to make up for the lost time is big because i mostly play mid, but i'll still leave the farm to the carry because i know he needs it more. Now obviously if i'm Shadow Fiend and on the sidelane i have a Slardar i'd rather take the last hits, but i still won't nuke the wave if i'm not sure i can get a tower out of it.

 

[Gully State]

Wouldn't the better compromise then be to just have a support help you farm the jungle on the way back?

 

[BigAT]

What's up with Navi? It seems like they have been playing terribly lately (by their normally high standards).

 

[Swag]

Pulling doesn't immediately sets your equilibrium close to the tower, it requires (if you're lucky with the timing for the gank) at the very best you lose almost a creepwave worth of exp assuming the pull is already stacked and your support is at the camp at xx:15-xx:45, at worst almost 80 seconds and a couple of waves.

What situation are you in that you're losing out completely on experience as the carry in the safe lane, are you being zoned out completely in a 2v2 that you're not even in range to get experience? If your in a position to get last hits, then tell your support not to pull and just continue to sit with you in lane, the only situation that I can imagine not being to gain any experience at all, is if the lane pushes deep past the opponents tower and they have a combo that would keep you from getting out of the tower range in time to not tank it.

Also if the pull isn't stacked you can still pull it and do a secondary pull to ensure that you're not getting the extra creeps going back to your lane.

I disagree that it's worth it in the long run because i'll take most mids underlevel over say a Void without farm (unless they're farming mid, but then they should leave the lane only for ganks they're completely sure they can get). Most mids (unless they're nightstalker or something like that) are gonna sit mid again at least until the next rune so you're still losing farm and again, if he nuked your wave why would he leave you the farm mid?

1 wave of farm isn't going to suddenly propel you into not having any farm at all, what were you doing the time that he wasn't ganking and your lane wasn't pushed? I will in almost every team comp take a mid that is farmed over a farmed void, because they will have the level advantage to be more effective in the mid game, compared to a void that can just drop his ultimate but doesn't have sufficient items to kill efficiently yet.

He leaves you the farm mid because, assuming you're Void, you're not doing fuck all to assist the team during the late early game - early mid game, so while you're farming mid, he's assisting the team in pushing, and ganking the enemy carry.

I understand that failing a gank can feel really bad because you didn't accomplish anything and the temptation to get farm to make up for the lost time is big because i mostly play mid, but i'll still leave the farm to the carry because i know he needs it more. Now obviously if i'm Shadow Fiend and on the sidelane i have a Slardar i'd rather take the last hits, but i still won't nuke the wave if i'm not sure i can get a tower out of it.

Please tell me that this is a fictional situation, cause if not, I can't help but laugh at that.

Wouldn't the better compromise then be to just have a support help you farm the jungle on the way back?

As a mid or as a safe lane farmer?

 

[Gully State]

As a mid or as a safe lane farmer?

As mid...

 

[Swag]

As mid...

Why not just go back mid and farm that...? If your intention is to farm, the point of taking the farm in lane is because you're already in the lane.

 

[Dreams-Visions]

Real Talk, mechanically Dota 2 is the superior game vs Diablo 3. Real Real Talk, I fucking can't quit diablo 3 cause I like loot games.

Future Talk Dota 2 with item drops game of the forever.

I'm having the same problem. HOWEVER, since you can just buy what you want in the Auction House for basically nothing, the looting experience in Diablo 3 is going to get old fast.

Where's the excitement for random loot drops when you can get exactly what you want with the stats you want for what amounts to about 20 minutes of gameplay?

 

[Gully State]

Why not just go back mid and farm that...? If your intention is to farm, the point of taking the farm in lane is because you're already in the lane.

Would it be better to take the one or two closest neutral camps in the sidelane then walk all the way back or would it be better to just walk all the way back on a failed gank? (not a rhetorical question).

 

[Swag]

Would it be better to take the one or two closest neutral camps in the sidelane then walk all the way back or would it be better to just walk all the way back on a failed gank? (not a rhetorical question).

Honestly just buy a teleport scroll and teleport back mid if you're a hero without a blink (so if you're not QoP)

 

[SamVimes]

What situation are you in that you're losing out completely on experience as the carry in the safe lane, are you being zoned out completely in a 2v2 that you're not even in range to get experience? If your in a position to get last hits, then tell your support not to pull and just continue to sit with you in lane, the only situation that I can imagine not being to gain any experience at all, is if the lane pushes deep past the opponents tower and they have a combo that would keep you from getting out of the tower range in time to not tank it.

Again, think of Veno-Tide against AM: i get in range to last hit, i take at most one and then i have to blink back because i'm taking tons of damage and i'm barely able to walk. Obviosly i can still take the exp, but that's not optimal at all.

Also if the pull isn't stacked you can still pull it and do a secondary pull to ensure that you're not getting the extra creeps going back to your lane.

Dire?

1 wave of farm isn't going to suddenly propel you into not having any farm at all, what were you doing the time that he wasn't ganking and your lane wasn't pushed? I will in almost every team comp take a mid that is farmed over a farmed void, because they will have the level advantage to be more effective in the mid game, compared to a void that can just drop his ultimate but doesn't have sufficient items to kill efficiently yet.

...exactly? So even if your mid isn't extra effective you carry can at least do something in case a teamfight is forced.

He leaves you the farm mid because, assuming you're Void, you're not doing fuck all to assist the team during the late early game - early mid game, so while you're farming mid, he's assisting the team in pushing, and ganking the enemy carry.

Point taken, still depends on the player.

Please tell me that this is a fictional situation, cause if not, I can't help but laugh at that.

Yeah i just thought of a midgame carry and a mid farmer, but i wouldn't see why it would be so bad. Isn't stacking armor reduction considered good?

 

[Swag]

Again, think of Veno-Tide against AM: i get in range to last hit, i take at most one and then i have to blink back because i'm taking tons of damage and i'm barely able to walk. Obviosly i can still take the exp, but that's not optimal at all.

Tough lane, but what are your support doing during this harass.

Dire?

You pull the typical pull camp, and then you pull the left most camp to the typical pull camp, similar to what radiant does with the camp close to the rune spawn and the typical pull camp on that side.

...exactly? So even if your mid isn't extra effective you carry can at least do something in case a teamfight is forced.

That works in the case of 1 hero, an Anti Mage, Phantom Lancer, Morphling, Clinkz, Weaver, etc. are not going to have that same effectiveness.

Point taken, still depends on the player.

If by depends on the player, you mean depends on whether you're good or bad then yes it depends on the players.

Yeah i just thought of a midgame carry and a mid farmer, but i wouldn't see why it would be so bad. Isn't stacking armor reduction considered good?

Why would you ever max Presence before Necromastery / Shadow Razes.

 

[Archie]

EHOME invited to TI2.

 

[Sibylus]

Definitely warranted.

And damn, Na'Vi are really struggling lately. Lost games against Mouz and CLG today, and quite severely too.

Wonder how much they've been practicing as a squad in recent times, they've hit rough patches before when they've fallen out of it.

 

[SamVimes]

Tough lane, but what are your support doing during this harass.

Mostly dying.

You pull the typical pull camp, and then you pull the left most camp to the typical pull camp, similar to what radiant does with the camp close to the rune spawn and the typical pull camp on that side.

Will try.

If by depends on the player, you mean depends on whether you're good or bad then yes it depends on the players.

Pretty much.

Why would you ever max Presence before Necromastery / Shadow Razes.[/QUOTE]

I wouldn't, but games usually go after 9 levels.

 

[Swag]

I wouldn't, but games usually go after 9 levels.

Interesting games going past level 9 in the laning phase.

 

[SamVimes]

Interesting games going past level 9 in the laning phase.

What? I thought you were only talking about the picks before, or were you just saying that you shouldn't gank a lane with Slardar if you're SF?

Also i don't see any reason to be passive aggressive.

 

[Swag]

What? I thought you were only talking about the picks before, or were you just saying that you shouldn't gank a lane with Slardar if you're SF?

I was assuming that the lane was Slardar SF, which is really hilarious, because it's a shit lane if you're facing anyone with a disable. But it would probably be hard to solo kill a Slarder as SF.

Also i don't see any reason to be passive aggressive.

Tongue-in-cheek.

 

[SamVimes]

I was assuming that the lane was Slardar SF, which is really hilarious, because it's a shit lane if you're facing anyone with a disable. But it would probably be hard to solo kill a Slarder as SF.

No, i was talking about an SF solo mid that ganks a lane that has Slardar and a support.
Slardar was just the first midgame carry that sprang to mind, and SF the solo mid farmer(yeah i know in pro games you're not gonna put him mid anyway) that's also able to gank.

 

[Swag]

No, i was talking about an SF solo mid that ganks a lane that has Slardar and a support.
Slardar was just the first midgame carry that sprang to mind, and SF the solo mid farmer(yeah i know in pro games you're not gonna put him mid anyway) that's also able to gank.

Oh, that post makes a lot more sense now, was wondering where that was coming from. In that case, I'd just go into the jungle and raze a camp, cause SF is awesome like that.

 

[Hylian7]

I had a game last night where I randomed Lone Druid. I've played him before, but I was just kind of "meh" with him. I actually ended up doing pretty well last night though. One thing I'm still unclear on is when to turn into bear form. I know I need to do it a before a fight starts up, as doing so during a fight might leave me to be a sitting duck during the transformation.

My build was this:

Syllabear: Power Treads, Assault Cuirass (this was like, right near the end of the game though)
Bear: Phase Boots, Orb of Venom, Radiance

Did I do good in that department?

 

[Tomat]

DOTA2 has the best RPG combat in any game ever.

I can't wait till the source stuff for DOTA comes out so people can start doing unique stuff with it.
I could come up with an interesting single player or co-op experience, just using whats already in the game. Imagine it being a 5 player co op game similar to Diablo. It would be so easy to come up with interesting bosses/battles by just giving neutrals or heroes certain items and abilities. Imagine if you had to take on Rosh as a group at like level 5 but Rosh has shit like a BKB or blink ability and a proper aggro system.

Like the stuff going on in Starcraft2 is pretty cool.


Edit Sanjay; I'd probably end up having the sidelaners come to gank, fail and then nuke the lane anyways.

Phandy pls go

 

[Schweinehund]

I had a game last night where I randomed Lone Druid. I've played him before, but I was just kind of "meh" with him. I actually ended up doing pretty well last night though. One thing I'm still unclear on is when to turn into bear form. I know I need to do it a before a fight starts up, as doing so during a fight might leave me to be a sitting duck during the transformation.

My build was this:

Syllabear: Power Treads, Assault Cuirass (this was like, right near the end of the game though)
Bear: Phase Boots, Orb of Venom, Radiance

Did I do good in that department?

Usually you put the items on yourself at somepoint late game because your stats scale better than the bear, but that is the traditional build. Some people go boots of travel instead of treads.

I usually almost always stay in bear form past the laning phase. Faster jungling + more likely to survive ganks.

 

[Sgt.Pepper]

Ugh what's going on? Every game is starting to be a slideshow.

 

[close to the edge]

I had a game last night where I randomed Lone Druid. I've played him before, but I was just kind of "meh" with him. I actually ended up doing pretty well last night though. One thing I'm still unclear on is when to turn into bear form. I know I need to do it a before a fight starts up, as doing so during a fight might leave me to be a sitting duck during the transformation.

My build was this:

Syllabear: Power Treads, Assault Cuirass (this was like, right near the end of the game though)
Bear: Phase Boots, Orb of Venom, Radiance

Did I do good in that department?

Yeah, looks solid to me. You can experiment with different boots on the main hero, Phase Boots can be quite nice, especially if you're in bear form a lot (which you should be in team fights). I've seen a few pro players also go Tranquil Boots on the main hero for the regeneration and nice movement speed (+80 I believe). This is the type of Syllabear who participates in teamfights fairly early and pushes down towers, not the afk-farm for 25-30 minutes type. Depending on how your team is doing, you can either rush a Radiance (if the lanes are going well) or go for a more aggressive build to be viable earlier. With the right micro, he's a very powerful hero.

 

[Phandy]

Phandy pls go

I'm not even joking. It has all the stats you could want really, it can be fast paced, tactical AND skill based. It has a great core system with physical/magic damage. Then tonnes of stuff going on which isn't just classic RPG-damage stuff. Like stuns/hex/pushes/pulls/environment interaction, along with the normal things.

I'm honestly surprised they're aren't any RPGs that look at the MOBAs combat systems evolved and implement stuff from it. The closest is in ARPGs like Diablo, but in those I find them to be implemented poorly by comparison.

(I think I've gone off-topic, Sorry.)
What I'm saying is I want a fully fledged RPG with great action combat like DOTA. Without it just becoming a Hack'n'Slash. Maybe when the source code gets released, I'll make my own total conversion and write my own RPG in dota.

 

[1.09]

I'm not even joking. It has all the stats you could want really, it can be fast paced, tactical AND skill based. It has a great core system with physical/magic damage. Then tonnes of stuff going on which isn't just classic RPG-damage stuff. Like stuns/hex/pushes/pulls/environment interaction, along with the normal things.

I'm honestly surprised they're aren't any RPGs that look at the MOBAs combat systems evolved and implement stuff from it. The closest is in ARPGs like Diablo, but in those I find them to be implemented poorly by comparison.

(I think I've gone off-topic, Sorry.)
What I'm saying is I want a fully fledged RPG with great action combat like DOTA. Without it just becoming a Hack'n'Slash. Maybe when the source code gets released, I'll make my own total conversion and write my own RPG in dota.

World of Phandycraft incoming.

 

[Sanjay]

I'm not even joking. It has all the stats you could want really, it can be fast paced, tactical AND skill based. It has a great core system with physical/magic damage. Then tonnes of stuff going on which isn't just classic RPG-damage stuff. Like stuns/hex/pushes/pulls/environment interaction, along with the normal things.

I'm honestly surprised they're aren't any RPGs that look at the MOBAs combat systems evolved and implement stuff from it. The closest is in ARPGs like Diablo, but in those I find them to be implemented poorly by comparison.

(I think I've gone off-topic, Sorry.)
What I'm saying is I want a fully fledged RPG with great action combat like DOTA. Without it just becoming a Hack'n'Slash. Maybe when the source code gets released, I'll make my own total conversion and write my own RPG in dota.

I have to agree with Phandy.

I don't see why Valve can't do some sort of Dota 2 Campaign. Keep it short and sweet like Portal and see how it fares.

 

[Phandy]

I have to agree with Phandy.

I don't see why Valve can't do some sort of Dota 2 Campaign. Keep it short and sweet like Portal and see how it fares.

Hell, they could make it the tutorial for the game.
Would be so good, they could do tonnes of cool stuff with introducing all the characters and items all in different situations.

 

[hamchan]

We still don't know what the "Quests" tab is for under Learn to Play do we?

 

[Detox]

I just thought the quests tabs would be challenges that ramp up from basic skills to high level stuff similar to those in Starcraft 2. Now people mentioned short campaign style quests tied into lore hñnnnnng

 

[ksan]

Darer vs. Virtus.Pro started 5 mins ago

Really fun matchups, and Darer looking pretty damn good with goblak, funnek and mag

 

[throwawayname]

What a save by Artstyle.

 

[Sibylus]

DTS versus M5 draft starting: http://www.joindota.com/en/live/tobiwan

 

[Exuro]

Hell, they could make it the tutorial for the game.
Would be so good, they could do tonnes of cool stuff with introducing all the characters and items all in different situations.

Maybe that's what the Quest tab is. Would love some sort of single player portion (be it one large campaign or separate, short hero based ones) full of lore. I could totally see a juggernaut/natures prophet rpg campaign, with loot being the cosmetic items(seeing as both of them rat the moment have a ton of items). Would be pretty cool.

 

[wakajawaka]

DTS versus M5 draft starting: http://www.joindota.com/en/live/tobiwan

wow that was fast.

 

[Gully State]

I need some pointers on Sand King (pre-epicenter). Specifically, during the laning phase. I've noticed a trend in which I start out severely underleveled in the beginning which leads to me getting a blink dagger quite late since I've gotten no gold in the laning phase(once mid game happens, farm comes pretty easy thanks to caustic finale <3- Seriously....so awesome pushing a lane using it/ just tap every creep a couple of times and burrowstrike to finish- instant gold).

 

[injurai]

Seeing posts about Dota 2 campaign made me lol. I guess we are getting a WarCraft 4 mod based on Dota 2 as well... things may be getting very interesting.

 

[Sibylus]

w2b Earthshaker campaign. Start out at humble beginnings, a simple mercenary landing fissure blocks from the sidelines, but soon enough Echo Slamming down hordes of goons. It will be glorious.

 

[1.09]

I need some pointers on Sand King (pre-epicenter). Specifically, during the laning phase. I've noticed a trend in which I start out severely underleveled in the beginning which leads to me getting a blink dagger quite late since I've gotten no gold in the laning phase(once mid game happens, farm comes pretty easy thanks to caustic finale <3- Seriously....so awesome pushing a lane using it/ just tap every creep a couple of times and burrowstrike to finish- instant gold).

One level in sandstorm is enough if you're in a relatively safe lane to prevent ganks, and the caustic gives you great lane presence. You can tag the ranged creep for caustic til it's low enough to die to burrow, start csing normally, and if the enemy laner gets close to the ranged creep, burrowstrike harass (which explodes the creep too for more damage). At 6, you can kill most heroes with burrowstrike->epicenter as long as you burrowstrike behind the target, because it takes the enemy hero time to turn around, then cast a spell. Ofc there are some heroes that have aoe disables that you won't be able to pull it off against, such as es, axe, slard, puck, but against most heroes you can pull it off and kill em.