Funky Papa
FUNK-Y-PPA-4
That writing is painfully bad. Wow.Thing beat Namor in Water in AvX. Those fights were almost as bad as the ones in Marvel vs DC.
Also, Everyone has had an opportunity to look like a fool under Bendis' pen
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Dr. Doom versus Magneto. Who wins?
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Manmademan
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He didn't "throw" the fight with stark. Stark forced him to reach outside of the earth's magnetic field to beat him, siphoning power from the sun as well as every planet within our solar system before he sensed the phoenix and got overwhelmed.
"channeling the power of the solar system" is ridiculously high end for magneto. There's not a whole lot higher he can go, or has gone in combat without a ton of prep time.
and he's fighting someone whose understanding of science is light years past his. Doom almost certainly understands how magneto's powers better than magneto does, which is why doom has counters to magneto's abilities hardwired into his armor. Stark has had to resort to using rubber or carbon nanotube suits to fight magneto, Doom doesn't have to.
neither of those things would actually injure doom. Stopping the earth's rotation is impressive, but not all that useful in a fight. and pocket wormhole? Doom can teleport at will and cross dimensions. Here he casually opens a portal into limbo:
Can magneto extricate himself from the nether realms? Doom can. Did I mention Doom has a link to his time platform built into his armor?
What is a wormhole going to do? Defensively, Doom is unquestionably superior.
It's magnetism, which again Doom understands. There have been two fights already posted between them where doom simply activates a field and shuts down magneto's influence. Can Magneto simply shut down Doom's attacks? no, he can't. Magnetic shielding would probably stop blasts from that armor, but they'd be totally ineffective against any type of magical assault, because magic in the MU completely ignores the laws of physics.
Magneto has done a LOT of misguided, questionable things in his pursuit of superiority for the mutant race. He's a wanted terrorist for a reason, chief. I can bring up trying to mind control the X-men and murder moira mctaggart, because he thought someone might have taken his free will when someone turned him into a baby for 5 minutes in the 1980s. (He was wrong there by the way).
of course we can speculate, that's what these threads are for. And in a contest with "no restraints" Doom simply takes this and easily, because Doom has more options. And did I say "doom?" because I meant "dooms."
Can magneto take one Doom? how about five? ten? a dozen? a hundred? Doom can send as many perfect clones after magneto as he likes, all with perfect copies of his power set (and yes, doombots can inexplicably spellcast as well).
You can dress up magic with as much technobabble as you want, but it'll still be magic as far as I'm concerned, just a different flavor of it.
There is, practically speaking, no real difference between "teleportation" achieved through magical means and FTL travel in sci-fi. The idea that the latter is somehow intrinsically more limited than the former because it uses "fictional science" is laughable. Same goes for time travel, or lasers, or what have you.
"Sufficiently advanced science blah blah blah you know the rest."
Manmademan
Member
of course there is, don't be daft. Magical teleportation transports items from one location to another without regard for any objects that might be in the way. Something in one location is now inexplicably in another a moment later.
FTL travel is simply traveling in a straight line REALLY fast. completely different ball of wax. Lock the flash and a sorcerer in an impenetrable box, and the sorcerer is going to get out, while the flash is going to be a smear on the wall if he tries to accelerate through it at FTL speeds.
edit: or using another analogy, teleportation is like a portal gun, randomly linking two points in space. On an infinite plane, you could throw a ball to the east, teleport it and have it hit you in the head from the west. this isn't possible with FTL travel.
yeah, it's one of the more awkward nicknames, not sure who thought that was a good idea.
Except for the kind of FTL travel that uses wormholes, or subspace, or rendering objects "massless", and so on and so forth.
And not all forms of "magical teleportation" are without conditions as well, like line of sight, or nothing occupying the targeted space, or whatever.
It's all fucking magic. The only real difference between one and the other is how many conditions an author wants to attach to it, and what kind of technobabble they want to use to explain it.
Manmademan
Member
wormholes are "bending space", not actually FTL. (at least the traditional wormholes like the ones in DS9.) subspace in star trek is totally unrelated to either and also does not ignore distance. Voyager needed to use subspace amplifiers to communicate with earth because distance causes signal degradation. Teleportation does not. I don't see how rendering an object massless is relevant either, it still doesn't ignore space as teleportation does.
not going to get into every single type of magical teleportation, but there are enough examples of it within the MU that are totally unrestricted (lila cheyney, magik, doom's billion different variants, blink, Thor, Galactus, Lockjaw) that i'm comfortable sticking with this particular definition. it is not the same as FTL travel and does not have the same restrictions. teleportation will get you places that FTL travel cannot. (i.e. a hyperdense impenetrable room).
Funky Papa
FUNK-Y-PPA-4
Manmademan
Member
well, black bolt IS the nickname there, and to be fair is less of a tongue twister than his given name. but yeah, that one is dumb but it was the 60s, what are you gonna do.
You're missing the point entirely.
When it comes to fictional methods of getting from point A to point B faster than you can using real methods, it doesn't matter if the method used is "magical" or "scientific". For any given "magical" means of movement or teleportation, any writer can come up with a "scientific" justification for it. For example, Starcraft's Protoss warp their buildings in, while Warcraft's Undead summon their buildings. Functionally, they are exactly the same, even though one is obviously science fiction, and therefore carries some sort of "scientific" explanation, whereas the other is fantasy, and is justified using "magic".
Which is why I don't think "rooted in science" is a reasonable limitation, because it's just as made up as Doom's magic. Is Doom's magic not also limited somehow? Why is that not considered a weakness as well? "Fictional science", in Marvelverse or comic books or fiction in general, is no more limiting than magic is.
All of this stuff is extremely fluid anyhow, because each writer is free to change the rules on a whim. At one point, Marvel Editorial has some firm guidelines on how certain things worked in the Marvel U (alternate realities, time travel, cosmic entities, etc), but the current editorial doesn't give a shit about that. Their current mantra is that anything goes if it serves whatever story is going on.
Manmademan
Member
I'm not, actually.
you're missing the point entirely. because teleportation ignores space, it is not about moving things "faster", it is able to relocate things to areas that it is totally impossible to do simply by moving quickly. Again, look at my example about the infinite plane. on an infinite plane, you can throw something due east, teleport it, and have it strike you with the exact same amount of inertia from the west. this is impossible using FTL travel, because FTL travel cannot do this. you would simply keep moving east indefinitely until you died, whether you were traveling at 1x lightspeed or 1millionx lightspeed. Marvel uses "teleportation" to cross dimensions with precision as well- you cannot simply accelerate or wormhole your way to Asgard, Limbo, or an alternate marvel universe. you CAN teleport there.
what is science and what is magic is established by universal rules. Blizzard may say one thing about warcraft and starcraft, but marvel says otherwise. Teleportation within the MU is functionally different than FTL travel and the two skills are not the same.
rooted in science is a limitation because if it's rooted in science it has an understood explanation. Both doom and stark understand magnetism and were able to build conventional devices to manipulate or null it out.
Magic does not work this way, and the only way to counter magical methods is by being a magic user yourself. it cannot be explained by the laws of physics, or countered using the laws of physics.
you see?
the most fun science
It can be explained by the laws of magic, and countered using the laws of magic, which, I assume exist? Or is it that any magician can make anything happen whatsoever? If magic is learnable, which I assume it is given Doom's acquired mastery of it, that must mean there must be an underlying logic, however obscured from the reader it is.
If a character can consistently reproduce some spell, make predictions about other spells using prior experience with spells, codify knowledge of those spells and share them.
Guess what?
That's science.
Manmademan
Member
unfortunately, there are no laws of magic. Magical rules vary from user to user. Doom "learned" magic, but who he learned it from determines what his abilities are. What Odin can do, what Mephisto can do, and what the Vishanti can do are all radically different, despite all three being technically limitless. Stephen strange is sorcerer supreme, but the scarlet witch's Chaos magic is entirely foreign to him.
There is one consistent law of physics that anyone can exploit, magic does not have this.
I find this hard to believe when people on Marvel Earth regularly break the Law of Conservation of Mass and Energy with nothing but their minds.
Manmademan
Member
Do you even read the source material bro? The people that do this tend to channel energy from extradimensional sources which have different laws- or occasionally from magical sources which (wait for it) ignore physics.
edit: this seems like a great opportunity to tell people about the Punch Dimension...
small magic tricks are learnable, but to use actual magic you have to have magic potential. And there are different magic systems, like when Doc Strange forsaked the Vishanti(kind of his bosses), he had to learn new system of magic for power.
Manmademan
Member
come on man, the thread isn't that long. at least read a little of it.
Manmademan
Member
actually that's a bad example because tony used carbon nanotubes there which aren't ferromagnetic. Doom's suit is still metal, but this doesn't matter because Doom's understanding of science is so high that he can simply reverse or null out magnetic attacks used against him, metal suit or not.
Doom >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Tony
PhoncipleBone
Banned
Tony's suits are like grade school science projects next to Doom's.
I am loving this thread.
I am loving this thread.
Exactly, Magneto is a bit enough name so that Doom would be prepared for him
Manmademan
Member
Exactly. Tony is an amazing engineer, but Doom (and Reed) are polymaths that are geniuses in EVERYTHING. their understanding of how energy, time, and space work (in addition to standard physics) is so bizarrely high that no one else can even understand the work they do. Edit: and doom is a master sorcerer on TOP of that- his suit isn't just tech, there are defensive magical wards built into it as well.
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Dimitri LH
Member
.....this thread has taught me how broken Doom is. And here I thought it was just in MvC3. I dint even know about the Magic stuff. I need to get to reading MAHVEL comics.
Manmademan
Member
The sorcery stuff is relatively recent- he always had it, but didn't use it as much in his earlier appearances. He tended to rely on scientific methods to get what he wanted. I'm not entirely certain when marvel made this shift for him, but slayven might.
Doctor Strange and Doctor Doom: Triumph and Torment was in the late 80s, so it was at least since then.
flaxknuckles
Member
Dang, I thought was Iron Man the master of this suit-making stuff. He really should be since that's the defining part of the character. Marvel putting all that emphasis on his Extremis and other suit improvements just fall flat if Dr.Doom has stuff just as good.
Manmademan
Member
Reed and Doom could run circles around Tony at any point, they simply choose not to. (well, doom sort of does with his suit) Their understanding of MU science is absurdly high.
Reed at one point made a gigantic galactus-killing robot
and pym made Ultron back when Tony was still running around with suits with rollerskates in them.
The marvel super-genius tier is pretty ridiculous. they might as well BE sorcerers with the crap some of them pull off.
90s when they publish the Books of Doom, since then they played up his mystical heritage.
Manmademan
Member
It was kind of an emergency contingency thing. the nullifier scared galactus off once, but it's not like they have that thing laying around in a drawer somewhere.
Sibersk Esto
Banned
Pym with that Dr. Frankenstein impression
entremet
Member
Lol. C'mon Doom. Pay your mercs.
yeah, you are right sorry. Just felt lazy to do it.
Manmademan
Member
Pym made Ultron 1, but ultron 1 was advanced enough that it evolved on it's own and kept rebuilding progressively more advanced versions of itself. Even the O.G. Ultron 5 and 6 were so technically advanced no one could comprehend the tech. The vision is ultron's creation and none of the avengers understand that thing either.
And Pym had to create a new form of life that would stop Ultron from coming back( yeah right)
My crystal ball predicts Ultron will be back in April or May 2015!
He hates all organic life.
Sibersk Esto
Banned
Neither anymore really, just obsessed with world domination. Pym isn't even on his agenda much.
Pym also had sex with his synthetic grandchild.
Imperial Bishop
Banned
#ItsDoom
Wish my dad took me on a flying scooter.
hey you can't prove that in court.
Correctomundo
Member
Looks to me like he realized it was pointless and threw the fight. Doesn't matter. Second panel from the left bottom row... he was going to win. Had he not sensed the Phoenix Force, Stark would have gone down.
It's not the solar system. It's a force of the universe itself. As long as Doom wants to fight him there, Mags has a serious advantage. Now I will admit that my knowledge of places like Limbo in the MU is paltry, but I'm not convinced that his ability to manipulate matter on an atomic level doesn't work there, either. So unless we can demonstrate that these alternate dimensions are thoroughly exempt from every physical law that the base one is, I'm still going to side with Mags in a lateral fight.
Light years? Magneto is one of the greatest engineering geniuses on the planet. While he certainly isn't up to Doom's level, he is decidedly no slouch. I think you underestimate him, here.
Doom still exists and operates on a physical level, and whether his armor is resistant to direct influence of Magneto's powers, it has to obey certain laws within that level, and if this is true, then there are ways Magneto can affect him indirectly. Doom is not untouchable.
I don't know. Being forced suddenly into an 1100mph spin could ruin his day at least a little bit and allow Mag to follow up with something else. It would also effectively destroy any supporting tactics Doom may have waiting, such as Doombots, as they get sheared off the atmosphere. Shit, man, I'm not a writer. Let them twist it how they want.
That might hurt if it opened on, say, his lower torso.
Irrelevant. Unless Doom does this right off the bat, and I don't think he will.
Time travel? What? He's just going to go make sure the Nazis finished that one off?
You don't know what a pocket wormhole could do to matter in it?
Ehhh.... I'm not going unquestionably. I'm going with possibly. But I do think both his arrogance and reliance on being in the same plane as Magneto are going to render him vulnerable in places.
I've never been suggesting a unilateral fight, here, by the by.
Yes, Doom understands it, and so does Magneto. Which is why Magneto doesn't stick with simple magnetic tricks. The guy can manipulate matter (among other fanciful things). He has a host of options besides merely moving metal.
And again, while Doom may be resistant to Magneto's magnetic influences, the rest of reality is not. And Doom resides in that same reality that Magneto possess control over a very crucial force within.
Now, of course we can simply say "magic" and write in whatever deus ex machina we want that allows him to sidestep rational problems, but that's lazy writing. Doom is still a creature of his established psyche and history. We can't change him to do whatever we want in the same way we can't have Magneto willing to destroy the Earth just to get Doom.
Absolutely. I would never defend his actions. Well, some maybe. But no, what I was implying is that his motivations tend to be more noble than Dooms megalomaniacal ones. Not necessarily just.
Well sure. And Magneto can bring the entirety of the solar system's electromagnetic spectrum down on a single physical point.
We're perilously close to splitting hairs, here. It's gone from "who would win" (Doom, for those keeping score), to "whose dad can beat up the other's". That's not in any way what I was implying in my original post.
We can keep bringing up all these "limitless" options Doom has, and all we're doing is illustrating how poorly written and fundamentally broken the character is. The entirety of the MUs should be knee deep in Doom statues by now, and that includes the Zombieverse.
Seven Force
Banned
Man, I love these threads. Always learn a bunch of new stuff.
I like the miscellaneous Doom & Magneto feats being posted, too.
I like the miscellaneous Doom & Magneto feats being posted, too.
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