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Dragon Age II Legacy - new DLC (or may be expansion pack?)
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WanderingWind
Mecklemore Is My Favorite Wrapper
Thanks Nirolak!
Ah, yes. The old "call your fans idiots and gloss over any legitimate complaints" tactic. This is the third time they've come to bat with nearly the same exact talking points - innovative, different, not as happy with the product as we expected. Classic three tiered approach to countering negative word of mouth. In fact, it's so classic as to be obvious to anybody who has even taken a basic marketing course.
1) Create a division between the market you think you need and the ones you believe are causing the word of mouth. If you liked the game, you're associated with words like "innovative" and if you didn't, well, you're just part of a vocal minority and you just couldn't handle anything not "more of the same."
2) Attempt to appease both bases (although it's exceptionally debatable that they're anything but one and the same) by offering "more of what the fans love" while changing it enough to please "fans of our other exciting games." Of course, this is literally impossible with two products as vastly different - and differently received - as Dragon Age 2. Have your cake, eat it too, then try to sell people on the crumbs left over as the pie they actually thought they were buying.
3) Completely marginalize negative reviews by ignoring them, pointing out the more positive reviews (why not the Zero Punctuation review guys? Too obvious?) and generally pretend nothing negative said carries any weight. After all, plenty of NEW fans loved DA2! Except there is no way of actually proving that, and considering the drop in sales from the first to the second that we last knew about (correct me if this has changed in the past 3-4 weeks) evidence points to this being a straight up lie.
This all points to the fact that while BioWare understands they went in the wrong direction with DA2, they have no real intention of making any changes. They're happy with DA2. This DLC will have some token response to complaints, but honestly, the first step to addressing any problem - really addressing it - is to actually admit that you made a mistake.
Not just throw out mealy-mouthed platitudes about how people didn't understand how "risky" making a sequel to a top selling franchise (complete with paid reviews, ancillary merchandising, movies, etc) and how "innovative" all of it was.
Bullshit Artist said:
Ah, yes. The old "call your fans idiots and gloss over any legitimate complaints" tactic. This is the third time they've come to bat with nearly the same exact talking points - innovative, different, not as happy with the product as we expected. Classic three tiered approach to countering negative word of mouth. In fact, it's so classic as to be obvious to anybody who has even taken a basic marketing course.
1) Create a division between the market you think you need and the ones you believe are causing the word of mouth. If you liked the game, you're associated with words like "innovative" and if you didn't, well, you're just part of a vocal minority and you just couldn't handle anything not "more of the same."
2) Attempt to appease both bases (although it's exceptionally debatable that they're anything but one and the same) by offering "more of what the fans love" while changing it enough to please "fans of our other exciting games." Of course, this is literally impossible with two products as vastly different - and differently received - as Dragon Age 2. Have your cake, eat it too, then try to sell people on the crumbs left over as the pie they actually thought they were buying.
3) Completely marginalize negative reviews by ignoring them, pointing out the more positive reviews (why not the Zero Punctuation review guys? Too obvious?) and generally pretend nothing negative said carries any weight. After all, plenty of NEW fans loved DA2! Except there is no way of actually proving that, and considering the drop in sales from the first to the second that we last knew about (correct me if this has changed in the past 3-4 weeks) evidence points to this being a straight up lie.
This all points to the fact that while BioWare understands they went in the wrong direction with DA2, they have no real intention of making any changes. They're happy with DA2. This DLC will have some token response to complaints, but honestly, the first step to addressing any problem - really addressing it - is to actually admit that you made a mistake.
Not just throw out mealy-mouthed platitudes about how people didn't understand how "risky" making a sequel to a top selling franchise (complete with paid reviews, ancillary merchandising, movies, etc) and how "innovative" all of it was.
lastplayed
Member
I am ready.
water_wendi
Water is not wet!
As far as i know there hasnt been a peep about sales numbers since Bioware proudly announced that it hit 1 million or whatever quicker than DA:O.WanderingWind said:
Dollar Yen
Neo Member
- a DLC Dragon Age 2 is a hard sell for me because of expectation. When you say RPGs, I think "I'll always have a solution to finish this game." Not be at a point where the glitches are frustrating and there are no ways to progress without the main story. I can't decide on whether to agree or disagree with what was brought. Dragon Age 2 feels like an unfinished product or whatever Mass Effect 2 left from Mass Effect as things they couldn't fix. I shouldn't have to be walking around with Hawke's hands in battle mode for 10 minutes after the fight. A DLC will make Dragon Age 2 worse and still not worth the effort.
And the DLCs weren't that great to begin with for Dragon Age 2. The Flint Company DLC felt like a letdown. Especially when I killed them off at the very beginning of the game itself. Hopefully, Bioware doesn't make the same mistakes and at least uses what was learned in "Lair of The Shadow Broker" for this. That was damn good DLC that should be the very benchmark of their DLC work. This download was so satisfying, I felt as if I robbed Bioware when I played this. I have to say that I'd do better with something of quality.
And the DLCs weren't that great to begin with for Dragon Age 2. The Flint Company DLC felt like a letdown. Especially when I killed them off at the very beginning of the game itself. Hopefully, Bioware doesn't make the same mistakes and at least uses what was learned in "Lair of The Shadow Broker" for this. That was damn good DLC that should be the very benchmark of their DLC work. This download was so satisfying, I felt as if I robbed Bioware when I played this. I have to say that I'd do better with something of quality.
water_wendi
Water is not wet!
Yeah. Maybe a shareholder meeting or a company report we might get numbers also.Nirolak said:
That's actually where the over 2 million shipped figure came from.water_wendi said:
EA usually only gives updates after the first quarter if the game does exceptionally well, since otherwise they bomba price games to reach as many people as possible over a long period time to build a fanbase for the sequel.
Like for Mass Effect 2, all we got was 2 million shipped and 1.6 million sold by the end of the first quarter, and then it wasn't until the Game Informer Mass Effect 3 reveal we found out it was upwards of 3.5 million copies.
Notably, they normally only try this for games they feel are well received. They buried Dante's Inferno for example as they wanted to make a sequel without people playing the first game. They did do this for Medal of Honor though because they felt consumers liked the game despite reviews, so if they think their target audience will like DA2, they'll do this and we'll get shipment numbers of "near 3 million" or something similar a year from now.
bluedeviltron
Member
I love both games, but BioWare has utterly failed up to this point with DA:O and DAII DLC.
Let's hope this is something substantial.
Let's hope this is something substantial.
WrenchNinja
Member
this is free right?
Cpt.Underpants
Member
Hopefully what BioWare's claiming that they are listening to the fans are true.
No more one of those false advertisements like, "when you push a button, something awesome has to happen".
No more one of those false advertisements like, "when you push a button, something awesome has to happen".
water_wendi
Water is not wet!
i hope Bioware doesnt fold. TOR sounds so good. FFS i need that game.sp3000 said:
People love to say this, but the fact that the games are actually selling well seems to escape them. I'm sorry you didn't like the games they've been making, but they're doing well financially. TOR could tank but I still don't think that would stop Dragon Age 3 from being made.sp3000 said:
bobnowhere
Member
A lot of people bought DA2 blind, like myself, trusting Bioware were just trying to appeal to a new market but there would still be a decent RPG at its core. These people are now forever burnt by Bioware and tricks like pre ordering two months before any reviews come out will not work again.
There claim of some old fans are pissed while plenty of new fans are happy doesn't add up. By any measure DA2 has sold poorly compared to DAO, it may have initially sold better due to pre orders but it has since dropped like a bomb. Apart from a few ridiculous and suspicious reviews, it has also performed poorer critically.
I'd hate to be in charge of marketing DA3, you have to win back the 'hardcore' RPG fans, continue to appeal to hardcore Bioware fans, allowing them to romance a horse or a tree should do that, and continue to move the game further away from it's RPG roots to appeal to this mysterious group of new fans.
There claim of some old fans are pissed while plenty of new fans are happy doesn't add up. By any measure DA2 has sold poorly compared to DAO, it may have initially sold better due to pre orders but it has since dropped like a bomb. Apart from a few ridiculous and suspicious reviews, it has also performed poorer critically.
I'd hate to be in charge of marketing DA3, you have to win back the 'hardcore' RPG fans, continue to appeal to hardcore Bioware fans, allowing them to romance a horse or a tree should do that, and continue to move the game further away from it's RPG roots to appeal to this mysterious group of new fans.
ShockingAlberto
Member
Did he seriously fucking say this?
Is this some sort of video game equivalent of The Onion or something?
Bioware, you guys are assholes. And not in a "I didn't like your game so you're actually bad people!" way. I mean that you are actually bad people because you act like bad people. You blame an audience that pays money for not understanding your artistic vision, implying they're ignorant cavemen that just didn't get the real message everyone else did.
The fuck did I ever do to you besides pay for and enjoy Dragon Age 1? Was that seriously the gravest offense you can think of? Why do I, as a consumer that enjoyed one game and felt the other was a poor effort, become your focus of derision?
Change your game, don't change your game, the worst I'll do is not play it or play it, consider the changes, and post my thoughts. But you didn't "change" the game in new and innovative ways. You put lipstick on a pig with birth defects, then mocked me for not wanting to make out with it.
Honestly, I was okay with Dragon Age 2 sucking. I would have brought up how it sucked whenever people talked about the game and opinions about it, I would have considered how it sucked when deciding on whether or not I want a third game, I would have maybe gone "I like Bioware, but DA2 really sucked" sometimes. Fine, you made a shitty game, it happens.
But to basically blame me for discovering that it sucks, that's low. That's not a game developer that is trying to make a good game so their audience can feel good buying it. That's being bad people.
water_wendi
Water is not wet!
If TOR tanks, EA as we know it might go away.Aeana said:
Well, they've already bought PlayFish, Chillingo, Firemint, and now seem to be buying PopCap, so I'm not seeing much of a direction change this would cause.water_wendi said:
I mean, let's look at this year's retail game line-up.
What are they going to do? Stop releasing sports games and Battlefield?
Roland Deschain
Member
Nirolak said:
That's interesting. Does this mean ME 2 was only a moderate commercial success? Also, did they keep Dante's Inferno's price artificially high to stop people from buying it, or just stop producing disks?
black swordsman said:
Hope they fix the wave attacks
I've only played the demo, but does it really look THAT bad? Wow.
I thought that they at least tried to hide the teleportation thing, like for example enemies jumping from the roof, or entering some door that were there but you weren't able to unlock; or hell, even entering through some magical wardrobe; but not teleporting in the friggin air :|
Protip BioWare: if it looks hilariously stupid, it probably is stupid and you should rethink your "innovations" and not blame your fans for not enjoying new things.
Well, in terms of absolute unit sales, it's still one of the higher selling WRPGs out there, but a lot of that was at lower price points. It was still quite profitable, but it's not the same kind of profit people would normally associate with 3.5 million units.Roland Deschain said:
With Dante's Inferno they didn't print a ton of low cost discs yeah. They just sold what was shipped and stopped instead of having a bunch of "buy the whole game for $10" sales at Christmas like we saw for ME2.
Domino Theory
Crystal Dynamics
Nirolak said:Well, they've already bought PlayFish, Chillingo, Firemint, and now seem to be buying PopCap, so I'm not seeing much of a direction change this would cause.
I mean, let's look at this year's retail game line-up.
What are they going to do? Stop releasing sports games and Battlefield?
OT: When the fuck is there going to be a Monopoly for XBLA?
OnT: I appreciate Dragon Age II fo introducing me to the franchise, but holy fuck, reusing the same, bland environments over and over again in addition to making some shitty quests brought the game down. I'll be cautious with Dragon Age III.
Vinterbird
Member
Domino Theory said:
If EA gives BioWare enough time/man power to work on DA3, it will be a fine game. It all comes down to those two factors, since the talent is at BioWare, and they understand their market (which no longer is the hardcore WRPG guy).
DA2 suffered from not enough guys on the project and too little dev time, both those things can be fixed in the future.
Mr_Zombie said:
The latest patch has done a lot of changes in the gameplay, reducing the wave enimies and fixing a lot issues.
The game was clearly rush other wise it had potential.
After the boring Act 1
The game was really getting better in Act 2 and the ending was great but however act 3 was terrible and it just disappointed me.
A quote from rockpapershotgun sums it up [has spoilers] -
Roland Deschain
Member
Will this be the only piece of DLC or have others been announced? Because I'll get the game eventually but I'm waiting on an eventual GOTY release. Started doing this with the first DA and haven't looked back. Borderlands, AC (Da Vince edition), ... saves me a lot of money because I want the 'complete" game. Waiting for probable GOTY releases for Fallout NV, Black Ops and others.
Stallion Free
Cock Encumbered
I'm still curious I guess.
black swordsman said:
Frankly, I disagree with the first point of RPS. In fact I consider it one of the best points of the game. If you want to tell me a story with multiple characters, they need independence and be responsible of their actions. If I control the output, they are just puppets and the story won't surprise me.
I made everything in my hand to help Ander, my character was his friend and I trusted him even if I disagreed with him on his ideas, the fact he did that was absolutely shocking to me and gave meaning to my story: no matter what I did, his radicalism was stronger. I think it was the first time I really felt betrayed with a videogame character, so I consider it a success.
Roland Deschain said:
For comparison, ME2 has only barely outsold ME1, despite being on more platforms and having higher reviews.
Take that how you will.
As for the DLC, unless it's substantial and extremely well-reviewed by GAF, I'll be passing on it. I have little interest in returning to the world of Hawke.
Interfectum
Gold Member
I'm going to laugh if they actually try to sell this DLC... it should be given away with a $10 coupon code for Dragon Age 3.
Xilium
Member
That was in reference to the 7M sold for the series right? I never got a chance to ask in the thread that was made on it but did that number include Galaxy sales or did they specifically say ME1 & ME2?Nirolak said:
They do sell but on top of what Nirolak said about them selling at low prices, I'm also under the impression that Bioware made/is making the Mass Effect series on a premium budget. They are spending a lot more money than comparative developers and their sales aren't making up the difference.Aeana said:
It's the same with Square and FFXIII. They sold a lot of units but not necessarily enough to justify the cost of development (in their eyes). That's why we are getting XIII-2.
Stallion Free
Cock Encumbered
The achievements for Legacy (confirming that it's called Legacy) popped up on http://www.xbox360achievements.org.
It appears to be taking place in the Vimmark Mountains and there is both a main quest and side quests. Bethany and Carver can be used in the DLC as well.
Conductor 30
Deep Roads Safari 15
Family Legacy 30
Family Outing 15
Tower Sweeper 30
It appears to be taking place in the Vimmark Mountains and there is both a main quest and side quests. Bethany and Carver can be used in the DLC as well.
Conductor 30
Defeat an ancient evil in the Vimmark Mountains.
Kill a genlock, genlock alpha, hurlock alpha, bronto, and deepstalker in the Vimmark Mountains.
Apply three effects to Hawke's Key.
Complete the main quest in the Vimmark Mountains with Bethany or Carver in the party.
Complete every side quest in the Vimmark Mountains prison tower.
BarrenMind
Member
CTRL+F "PC"
found in "upcoming", "Popcap", "NPC"
sad face
Ah whatever, will probably skip even if it does come to PC... game is a nightmare to play without a controller it turns out... should have just bought the 360 version after I played the hell out of it during a rental
Actually, has anyone worked out 360 wireless controller support for the PC version? Is it difficult to enable?
found in "upcoming", "Popcap", "NPC"
sad face
Ah whatever, will probably skip even if it does come to PC... game is a nightmare to play without a controller it turns out... should have just bought the 360 version after I played the hell out of it during a rental
Actually, has anyone worked out 360 wireless controller support for the PC version? Is it difficult to enable?
CabbageRed said:
Haha, wow.
It was great when our hobby was once for gamers, or nerds to put it another way. Then mainstream crowds come along, like they do to everything else, and have everything streamlined for them whilst they lap it up waving their money about, as the likes of Halo and CoD have set the bar for their incredibly low standards. Because that's all it is now. A massive dumbed down mess for mass appeal. It doesn't say much about the new audience when all they can ever do is release this garbage that they buy like hotcakes, with more aides to help you along than there are drops of water in my swimming pool.
And I would certainly call DA2 more of a snore fest than any RPG before it, you can basically run around pressing the same buttons from beginning to end. DA2 or BG2, guess which my grandpa would have a better chance of finishing? But hey, it's time for this old man (22) to go to bed.
black swordsman said:
Bitterness that we're not getting KOTOR 3. Bitterness turned to anger when Bioware explains that KOTOR MMO is actually KOTOR 3, 4, 5, 6,7, 8 all rolled into one game, as if we are stupid enough to believe that. As if we are stupid enough to believe Dragon Age 2 is a good game that we just don't understand.
Honestly at this point my opinion of Bioware has reached a level of dissapointment that I just cannot begin to explain. I used to be a huge fan of Bioware and almost believed nothing they could make was capable of being bad, then ofcourse I played DA2. It just seems like such a shame that they continue to strip away large chunks of make RPGs what they are and in the process creating games that belong to other genres. Mass Effect for instance is a shooter, first and formost. It's not terrible, but few would argue that it's an incredibly deep RPG, and fewer still would argue that it's a top tier shooter.
With DA what baffles my mind is that DA1 sold very well, and yet they still decided to dumb it down further and turn into a heap of garbage compared to the first. I don't mind that they sped up the combat, thats fine but almost every other desicion they made was at a detrement to the experiance as a whole, "Wave" Combat, the fact that ultimately the bulk majority of the Major choices in the game mean exactly nothing come the end game, a borderline non existant crafting system, 4 dungeons that make up the "world" in which you play the game, the inability to equip my party with loot making almost all of it pointless, the only saving grace was that atleast some of the characters were interesting to talk to. The framed narrative was an interesting experiment but it ended up making the story feel disjointed and a mess.
Caution spoilers:
With DA what baffles my mind is that DA1 sold very well, and yet they still decided to dumb it down further and turn into a heap of garbage compared to the first. I don't mind that they sped up the combat, thats fine but almost every other desicion they made was at a detrement to the experiance as a whole, "Wave" Combat, the fact that ultimately the bulk majority of the Major choices in the game mean exactly nothing come the end game, a borderline non existant crafting system, 4 dungeons that make up the "world" in which you play the game, the inability to equip my party with loot making almost all of it pointless, the only saving grace was that atleast some of the characters were interesting to talk to. The framed narrative was an interesting experiment but it ended up making the story feel disjointed and a mess.
Caution spoilers:
Also when my love interest is Merill through out the entirety of the game, and during my ending scene Varric says that everyone pretty much parted ways and my character went off with Isabela who had stabbed me in the back only to never return in my game, leads me to believe that the choices in the game never mattered in the first place.
