I was trying to appeal to your empathy by showing a similar example from a male-perspective, i.e. that an over-sexualized character in a game would influence the tone of the game. I wasn't talking about equality between genders.
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Dragon's Crown (Vanillaware PS3/PSV) Sorceress Trailer
- Thread starter Takao
- Start date
I was trying to appeal to your empathy by showing a similar example from a male-perspective, i.e. that an over-sexualized character in a game would influence the tone of the game. I wasn't talking about equality between genders.
Sapphire Dreams
Member
It's the same art style though.
^ similar design to the sorc
^ similar design to the knight
Those are from Odin sphere right ? I remember the king but I don't remember the character above, it's been a while.
QisTopTier
XisBannedTier
eh dudley's floppy dong and urien never made me view sf3 any differently
mhm unded queen
Well this thread went to shit. So much hyperbole and ad homeium on both sides with each side escalating and egging the other side on 
I'm not necessarily taking sides but your anecdotal evidence and ONE study doesn't negate his anecdotal evidence just so you know. So everything you're saying could be turned right back at you.
I'm not convinced that breasts and penises are sexual characteristics that can be sexualized to the same effectiveness. I say this just based on real-world conditions: one is pretty much always aware of a woman's bust size but a man's penis size is pretty much impossible to gauge unless we are at a beach or we've already at the actual "having sex" stage. Ergo, penis size is a less important secondary sexual characteristic.
When a woman/gay man looks at another man, penis size is not one of the first criteria to come into play. As such, if the aim is to incorporate characteristics that would appeal to gay men, straight women and/or play into the occasional male power fantasy in video games, emphasizing things like height, shoulder width, musculature, etc. seems more effective. I'm not going to argue that the other characters are just as sexualized as the Sorceress is but given the degree of exaggeration that applies to nearly the entire cast, the disparity is much smaller than you think it is.
I'm not necessarily taking sides but your anecdotal evidence and ONE study doesn't negate his anecdotal evidence just so you know. So everything you're saying could be turned right back at you.
I'm not convinced that breasts and penises are sexual characteristics that can be sexualized to the same effectiveness. I say this just based on real-world conditions: one is pretty much always aware of a woman's bust size but a man's penis size is pretty much impossible to gauge unless we are at a beach or we've already at the actual "having sex" stage. Ergo, penis size is a less important secondary sexual characteristic.
When a woman/gay man looks at another man, penis size is not one of the first criteria to come into play. As such, if the aim is to incorporate characteristics that would appeal to gay men, straight women and/or play into the occasional male power fantasy in video games, emphasizing things like height, shoulder width, musculature, etc. seems more effective. I'm not going to argue that the other characters are just as sexualized as the Sorceress is but given the degree of exaggeration that applies to nearly the entire cast, the disparity is much smaller than you think it is.
not psycho
Member
There is, David Bowie in Labyrinth. Go watch it.
Ohhh, you mean in this game. Hmm. Well, I don't actually agree with you that breasts are equivalent to a penis (you were right, that was unexpected). And I'm not sure that your idea of equality (apparently a one-to-one equivalence on a game by game basis of male and female characters with specific characteristics) is possible or desirable.
For that matter, I'm still not clear on why an exaggerated sexual style is worse than a standard sexualization, or why either is bad on its own. There are many people for whom the artist's exaggerated style takes it so far it is no longer sexy, and as I said before I think some of the anger over the design is precisely from these people saying "how dare you not be sexy for me! This isn't what I like!"
To be honest, the design would certainly seem sexier to me if the artist had cut back on his exaggeration. As it stands it reminds me of the Paul Robertson art I mentioned earlier (can be seen on his tumblr). I'm still curious what people who hate this design would think of him.
So people point out that they have a problem with the character design and all the followers of the game continue to be overly defensive including personal attacks and when the discussion dies down some of the followers link porn to each other about said character. It makes it kind of weird that people are so defensive when for some it actually is about stroking their penis (or vagina if any LB's are out there).
This is more of a call for better behaviour and discussion than the "lol feminazi" or "maybe he's just afraid of tits" or "you haven't played it so you don't know anything" or "shut up and don't play the game" etc.
Maybe this should work (although the dick should be so big that it's practically bulging out over the underwear like the Sorceress' breasts)
Imagine if an anime version of this was in the game - can't people see the ridiculousness of it?
There is nothing wrong with thinking the design is silly or absurd. In fact it is . That's the part of the charm and fan service. If that isn't appealing to you, fine. It's alright.
However it's worrisome that some people are thoroughly offended by this and seemingly wanting to start some crusade because a video game character has large breasts. Even worse that some folks are implying that the character, the game, it's creators and fans are misogynistic and examples of disregard for the thoughts and feelings of real women. It's utterly insane how someone can make such an assertion.
What kind of ass backwards, hyper puritanical universe do I live in where men feel obligated to vilify and demonize other men, and "defend" women over things that don't matter. Now that is absurd.
I have stayed away from this thread but I think this sums it up nicely that's pretty much what is going on here no discussion of the actual trailer and game for 16 of the pages. So disappointing for what will be a amazing game.
"crusade"
"offended"
"misogynistic"
"puritanical"
"vilify and demonize other men"
"defend women"
I think you are severely misunderstanding what some people have been criticizing. People seem to take it incredibly personal that others don't like over-sexualized characters. I mean, just be upfront about it instead of trying to denigrate and/or deny that you like or don't mind hyper-sexualized characters. It's not particularly the design that makes me participate in this thread, but the overly defensive reactions to the criticisms. It's poor discussion form.
Which is what this issue basically devolves into: Whether or not people mind hypersexualized (in this case female) characters. Some do and some don't. Don't take it personal that others don't like or have a problem with the gratuitous hyper-sexualized tits and ass.
Uhh....people have been very vocal about their taste and preferences in this thread.
And I use those words because that is precisely what is going on here
SolidSnakex
Member
The proportions on many of Vanillaware's characters, whether they be men or women, are absurd. But the question is, why are you only bothered by the absurd look of the women? All of the characters, with the exception of the Elf and Wizard, seem to be extremely exaggerated versions of what you normally see with that character class. If you just do a Google image search for "Sorceress" you'll quickly see that the common theme for most them are exposed breasts or a lot of cleavage. So they exaggerated that part of her body. A Dwarf is usually a muscular character, so they exaggerated his muscles to a great degree.
They're not trying to give social commentary on men or women. They're trying to make a game and decided to use a unique and exaggerated artstyle for their characters. That's really it. There's no deeper meaning to what's going on here.
Whoa buddy, what's with the game related discussion? We talmbout titties up in here son! Better come correct.
Black Door
Banned
Sorry, son, this thread is for getting your privilege checked, not vidya gaems
I wish we had more gameplay information. And a freaking EU release date. Come on already Atlus
In reality, we know little, as even the info from a year or so ago is possibly wrong, as lots of it was just concepts and speculation.
We know there are limited customization and D&D like leveling. But specifics are up in the air. Only the official site descriptions gave us ant insight to their playstyles and characteristics.
Even translation of the JP text in the trailers reveals little.
Mauricio_Magus
Banned
Guys, Videogames are fun
I hope this game end up being fun
I hope this game end up being fun
First of all, let's be clear, I'm not morally offended. Art is art, and I'm a live and let live guy. I just find the designs ugly and unappealing.
And I don't find the exaggerated males comparison to be entirely apt. The sorceress has ridiculous breasts far bigger than her head, flopping around prominently in every pose. The men are just towering bruisers like you'd see in any saturday morning cartoon. I don't see dicks and balls flying around when they swing their weapons. If I did, I'd find that gross as well.
Maybe they can ask Atlus if they can make Mara playable. I think he allows for an innovative and interesting play-style.
I love how people are acting like this is the only case of large breasts ever in video games. I've seen hundreds of skimpier outfits and even larger breasts in video games before. The sorceress is actually pretty tasteful compared to a lot of female characters in games. People seriously need to lay off and let big breasted girls have a cool mascot in gaming. Why can't large breasts be cool? Why is it only seen as sexual to you white knights?
djplaeskool
Member
The Amazon trailer thread is going to be amazing.
#TeamHometown
#TeamHometown
Omnistalgic
Member
Good post up top Lime..
I think the game will be really fun, will get for my Vita, but the proportions are ridiculous, and people have a right to complain about it. Everyone makes mistakes/bad judgments, so I don't think it's fair to claim anything about the designers of the game based on there artwork. I'm sure it's more for "lol" than implying anything. However, if we want the industry to continue to grow, we have to be more open minded about individuals here. Now would my wife be offended by me playing this game, no...but she likely wouldn't watch me play it for hours either like Journey or Heavy Rain with boobs bouncing around the screen for 3 hour gameplay sessions.
It's just about balance. I think the boobs and thighs are exaggerated to the point of immaturity and I don't find it funny in the slightest or entertaining. But the gameplay looks fantastic...some people are going to be offended, but the women defense force is already taking steps to have more games appeal to the them, so there's no reason for anyone to call "justice" or "outrage" for games with art like this. Support it with your wallet or don't...
On the male junk vs. female t/a debate. It will never be completely equal. Who do some men have to 'learn' to not feel threatened or insecure if there spouse makes more money than them? Why are women "more likely" to ask for directions? Despite protest for equality and universal acceptance, there's still more male construction workers/fireman/police officer/CO etc...Some things just come more naturally to one sen than the other. And woman are more naturally appealing than men. just accept it lol...even if you are the hottest guy in the world with a pretty big donkey in your pants, there's so much more marketing for a beautiful woman of equal assets to address. Woman are designed to be pleasant. Yes, there's a point where it can get disrespectful, but I don't think we should be trying to run away from what's natural either. So I just hope that line never gets crossed and we have a gen with all strong-willed oddly proportion female protagonist and NPC...embrace what's natural i say
I think the game will be really fun, will get for my Vita, but the proportions are ridiculous, and people have a right to complain about it. Everyone makes mistakes/bad judgments, so I don't think it's fair to claim anything about the designers of the game based on there artwork. I'm sure it's more for "lol" than implying anything. However, if we want the industry to continue to grow, we have to be more open minded about individuals here. Now would my wife be offended by me playing this game, no...but she likely wouldn't watch me play it for hours either like Journey or Heavy Rain with boobs bouncing around the screen for 3 hour gameplay sessions.
It's just about balance. I think the boobs and thighs are exaggerated to the point of immaturity and I don't find it funny in the slightest or entertaining. But the gameplay looks fantastic...some people are going to be offended, but the women defense force is already taking steps to have more games appeal to the them, so there's no reason for anyone to call "justice" or "outrage" for games with art like this. Support it with your wallet or don't...
On the male junk vs. female t/a debate. It will never be completely equal. Who do some men have to 'learn' to not feel threatened or insecure if there spouse makes more money than them? Why are women "more likely" to ask for directions? Despite protest for equality and universal acceptance, there's still more male construction workers/fireman/police officer/CO etc...Some things just come more naturally to one sen than the other. And woman are more naturally appealing than men. just accept it lol...even if you are the hottest guy in the world with a pretty big donkey in your pants, there's so much more marketing for a beautiful woman of equal assets to address. Woman are designed to be pleasant. Yes, there's a point where it can get disrespectful, but I don't think we should be trying to run away from what's natural either. So I just hope that line never gets crossed and we have a gen with all strong-willed oddly proportion female protagonist and NPC...embrace what's natural i say
I really can't choose between life and hometown, though I lean more toward the Amazon.
Wonko_C
Member
Someone at Kotaku read this thread and decided to write a (terrible) news article about the sorceress.
http://kotaku.com/game-developers-really-need-to-stop-letting-teenage-boy-472724616
http://kotaku.com/game-developers-really-need-to-stop-letting-teenage-boy-472724616
is the artist actually a teenager? or are they just making fun and criticizing?
SolidSnakex
Member
First of all, let's be clear, I'm not morally offended. Art is art, and I'm a live and let live guy. I just find the designs ugly and unappealing.
And I don't find the exaggerated males comparison to be entirely apt. The sorceress has ridiculous breasts far bigger than her head, flopping around prominently in every pose. The men are just towering bruisers like you'd see in any saturday morning cartoon. I don't see dicks and balls flying around when they swing their weapons. If I did, I'd find that gross as well.
How is exposed dick and balls comparable to a female character showing a lot of cleavage? My point about the exaggerated males is that they're just exaggerations of that basic type of character. Just as the the Sorceress is an exaggeration of that type of character. So of course her boobs are flopping around and are huge. When you look at art for a Sorceress their breasts are the primary focus. Just as the primary focus of a dwarf is their muscle.
This is the character artist
He's also the game director, president of Vanillaware and he's also married. Quite the accomplished teenager, Kotaku.
michaelius
Banned
reading stuff like this makes me really happy add block exists
Psycho_Mantis
Banned
How is exposed dick and balls comparable to a female character showing a lot of cleavage? My point about the exaggerated males is that they're just exaggerations of that basic type of character. Just as the the Sorceress is an exaggeration of that type of character. So of course her boobs are flopping around and are huge. When you look at art for a Sorceress their breasts are the primary focus. Just as the primary focus of a dwarf is their muscle.
This is the character artist
He's also the game director, president of Vanillaware and he's also married. Quite the accomplished teenager, Kotaku.
He's an amazing artist. Love his art style.
Knux-Future
Banned
I just think people are thinking too hard about this.
I like over the top sexualized characters. Bloodrayne is one of my favorites from the PS2 generation. That said, I'm just not a fan of the largely uncovered boobs on the Sorceress, they just don't look right to me. I'll admit that that if they were the same size and jiggled just as much, but were more reasonably covered, I wouldn't have a problem with them. I'm just voicing my own personal taste, not really arguing which is more objectionable.
Basically, the character designs for this game are just caricatures of the usual archetypes, which is what makes them fun and cool imo.
Gokurakumaru
Banned
It's not the only study, it's just the latest one and ironically only days old news. So while your point is valid that I don't speak for all women, I wasn't pretending to. What I was pointing out wast that he most definitely isn't either, and his preconceived notions of what's on women's "lists" are demonstrably wrong.
Without the whole package, tits aren't high on most guys lists either. Would this outrage even exist if the sorceress was a 200lb chick with large breasts, or had a face that looked like a toothless crack-whore? The sorceress' only real crime is that she's attractive and dressed like she's going out to a club. She could have average sized breasts and people would still complain about the dress.
IHaveCandy
Banned
I don't see why you are equating the Dwarf to "big arms". He isn't Popeye.
And people aren't saying the dwarf is overly-sexualized like the Sorceress. They are saying they are both ridiculously designed characters. If you think it looks stupid, then fine. If you're going to say it looks stupid because no breasts would be that large and function that way, then people are going to point out how other characters are designed to look over-the-top. It's like saying anime art style sucks because the eyes are too big and its unrealistic.nobody is going to take the unrealistic part seriously since its not supposed to be realistic. If it looks bad to you then fine, but don't hold it to realistic standards.
And if you don't have a problem with sexualized characters or people judging what you play, I fail to see why this game would "embarrass" you for if you played it.
Schobeleth
Member
I wouldn't, unless you want to get banned, although it does seem to come and go when it comes to port begging bans.
PM ME THIS PLEASE :3
A game with huge shlongs and huge boobs would be hilariously awesome. Although, there are a lot of people who say that adding freakishly muscular men doesn't solve the problem either, that no one should be objectified ever, because it's distasteful, etc etc. I dunno.
Boobs are nice and in games/anime the bigger the better as far as I'm concerned. If I saw a real women with freakishly, swollen looking boobs I'd be grossed out actually so it's the opposite for me as compared to some people saying if they look real it's ok.
In all reality we should be getting outraged that it's ok for games to show a woman's cleavage, legs, butts, basically anything outside of outright nudity but it's usually completely not cool for dudes to be practically naked. Why aren't we having this discussion, huh???
Why on earth would you wish such a heinous thing on this beautiful artwork?!
~Devil Trigger~
In favor of setting Muslim women on fire
Maybe this should work (although the dick should be so big that it's practically bulging out over the underwear like the Sorceress' breasts)
Imagine if an anime version of this was in the game - can't people see the ridiculousness of it?
Mauricio_Magus
Banned
This thread has hyped me for the game, time to preorder for PS3
nailbombxx
Member
At least people are talking about this game.
Mauricio_Magus
Banned
Done ;p
I'm interested as well XD
IHaveCandy
Banned
I'd say the equivalent to large cleavage is a man with a chiseled ass.
Mauricio_Magus
Banned
PM's sent :3
Elf is ultimate waifu
Elf is ultimate waifu
nailbombxx
Member
Or chiseled pecs and abs. Like the Dwarf.