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[VGEsoterica]

Everyone said PS1/Saturn/N64 in FPGA wasn't possible on the current DE10 Nano board MiSTer FPGA uses, and while Dreamcast may in fact prove the "it wont fit in the logic" argument...I love when people try! Because nothing is impossible until you prove so and anything learned from the attempt will be useful work for the successor to the DE10 NANO, whatever that might end up being. Because eventually the MiSTer project will move to a larger FPGA with more logic elements.

But some progress on Dreamcast exists in Verilog as a proof of concept attempt and its fun to see the progress even if we are talking "infancy days" here. Because most of us love Dreamcast and having another way to play would NOT be a bad thing. Especially with some clean VGA out into a 31khz monitor...so good!

But I love the communities optimism to see what could be. But GAF...if there was one piece of hardware you could have in FPGA...what would it be?

 

[RoboFu]

Just get one of these for sub $200 ...

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Amazon.com: Beelink Mini S12 Pro Mini PC, Intel 12th Gen Alder Lake- N100(up to 3.4GHz), 16GB DDR4 RAM 500GB PCIe SSD, Desktop Computer Support 4K Dual Display/USB3.2/WiFi 6/BT5.2/Gigabit Ethernet for Home/Office : Video Games

www.amazon.com

 

[SScorpio]

This will be interesting to watch, but I wouldn't hold my breath. Even if you could get the logic to fit, I think clock rate would be an issue. It looks like the Dreamcast has a 33.3Mhz system bus with a 6x CPU multiplier for a speed of 199Mhz. ao486 is unstable for many people at 100Mhz.

But I'm ready to be amazed. I still remember the release of the at the time SD2SNES and it had this fancy FPGA on it which might let an SNES expansion chip or two work in the future. A year and a half or so later and all the chips outside of the ARMs for the Shoji games were added.

 

[VGEsoterica]

This will be interesting to watch, but I wouldn't hold my breath. Even if you could get the logic to fit, I think clock rate would be an issue. It looks like the Dreamcast has a 33.3Mhz system bus with a 6x CPU multiplier for a speed of 199Mhz. ao486 is unstable for many people at 100Mhz.

But I'm ready to be amazed. I still remember the release of the at the time SD2SNES and it had this fancy FPGA on it which might let an SNES expansion chip or two work in the future. A year and a half or so later and all the chips outside of the ARMs for the Shoji games were added.

I’m supporting of all attempts. Even if they don’t succeed it’s learning for the next board

 

[Tarin02543]

Seems unfeasable, some demoscene stuff might run which do not need the full powerpc power.

it would be crazy to see Mister 2.0 which might be a digital clone of the notorious Cell processor inside ps3.

 

[SScorpio]

I’m supporting of all attempts. Even if they don’t succeed it’s learning for the next board

It's not even just learning. While it's not just a choose new target and recompile. The code is portable so a large amount of the work can be reused on a new board.

 

[VGEsoterica]

It's not even just learning. While it's not just a choose new target and recompile. The code is portable so a large amount of the work can be reused on a new board.

Yes thats basically what I mean. The code base of Verilog / HDL can be moved to new platforms. Not one click but also not “shit I gotta rewrite all of this”

 

[Ev1L AuRoN]

Just get one of these for sub $200 ...

Amazon.com: Beelink Mini S12 Pro Mini PC, Intel 12th Gen Alder Lake- N100(up to 3.4GHz), 16GB DDR4 RAM 500GB PCIe SSD, Desktop Computer Support 4K Dual Display/USB3.2/WiFi 6/BT5.2/Gigabit Ethernet for Home/Office : Video Games

Amazon.com: Beelink Mini S12 Pro Mini PC, Intel 12th Gen Alder Lake- N100(up to 3.4GHz), 16GB DDR4 RAM 500GB PCIe SSD, Desktop Computer Support 4K Dual Display/USB3.2/WiFi 6/BT5.2/Gigabit Ethernet for Home/Office : Video Games

www.amazon.com

That would do the exactly opposite of what people who own the Mister want.

 

[RagnarokIV]

PS7 and Xbox Series Two cores coming next week.

 

[VGEsoterica]

That would do the exactly opposite of what people who own the Mister want.

Pretty much. But I don’t knock software emulation. It really has its place in the litany of options we have and can enjoy

 

[SScorpio]

That would do the exactly opposite of what people who own the Mister want.

They can only do GC/PS2 at 720p, Wii-U at 720p can't hit 60. The Mini PC Ryzens can do PS3.

With the MiSTer doing PSX, and the Saturn core almost there. Only PS2 gen at 720 rather than 1080 or 4K is laughable.

 

[Ev1L AuRoN]

They can only do GC/PS2 at 720p, Wii-U at 720p can't hit 60. The Mini PC Ryzens can do PS3.

With the MiSTer doing PSX, and the Saturn core almost there. Only PS2 gen at 720 rather than 1080 or 4K is laughable.

They want low-latency and accuracy not better IQ.

 

[VGEsoterica]

They want low-latency and accuracy not better IQ.

The great thing is MiSTer gives us both. Amazing scaling and no latency issues

 

[Walter Matthau]

I've seen ElectronAsh's name come up for a couple of cores, but not sure if he's ever completed any. Seems like a talented guy anyway. Hopefully the work he's putting in will at least lay some type of foundation for an eventual core.

Every time MiSTer hits a new milestone we don't need to be told that software emulators on your Casio F-91W digital watch can run the games at 8k 240fps for a fraction of the cost. We get it and you'd have a hard time finding someone in the MiSTer community who doesn't occasionally mess around with software emulation.

 

[TastyPastry]

if there was one piece of hardware you could have in FPGA

definitely PS2

btw i'm still going back and forth between building a software emulation setup or a mister setup for my retro gaming. correct me if i'm wrong but mister only really makes sense if you are using a crt when it comes to visual accuracy right? i know mister supports some filters/shadow mask to get that crt look but as far as i know the really good crt shaders in retroarch like crt royal require lots of power which a de10 nano obviously doesn't have. so when using mister on a oled the games might run perfect but in terms of visuals and the games looking like you remember them software emulation on a good pc might be the better choice right?

also love your youtube channel op

 

[Codiox]

the day we get fpga dreamcast is the day when i say


"yep, thats it. now i can happily die"

 

[VGEsoterica]

definitely PS2

btw i'm still going back and forth between building a software emulation setup or a mister setup for my retro gaming. correct me if i'm wrong but mister only really makes sense if you are using a crt when it comes to visual accuracy right? i know mister supports some filters/shadow mask to get that crt look but as far as i know the really good crt shaders in retroarch like crt royal require lots of power which a de10 nano obviously doesn't have. so when using mister on a oled the games might run perfect but in terms of visuals and the games looking like you remember them software emulation on a good pc might be the better choice right?

also love your youtube channel op

oh no its as good on modern tvs as it is on analog. Def build a MiSTer setup

 

[SScorpio]

definitely PS2

btw i'm still going back and forth between building a software emulation setup or a mister setup for my retro gaming. correct me if i'm wrong but mister only really makes sense if you are using a crt when it comes to visual accuracy right? i know mister supports some filters/shadow mask to get that crt look but as far as i know the really good crt shaders in retroarch like crt royal require lots of power which a de10 nano obviously doesn't have. so when using mister on a oled the games might run perfect but in terms of visuals and the games looking like you remember them software emulation on a good pc might be the better choice right?

also love your youtube channel op

Some awesome person , made a video going over the MiSTer's CRT filters. They are best in class, matching what software emulators and the most expensive scalers can do. And unlike the scalers, it has a perfect copy of the image without any noise since it digitally has the image rather than needing to capture an analog signal and converting that to digital to then scale.

Software emulators can shine in the world of 3D where rendering to a higher resolution and filtering textures can bring out some amazing detail hidden in older games. But for games that rely on a CRT for their look, the MiSTer will do what you want.

 

[VGEsoterica]

Some awesome person , made a video going over the MiSTer's CRT filters. They are best in class, matching what software emulators and the most expensive scalers can do. And unlike the scalers, it has a perfect copy of the image without any noise since it digitally has the image rather than needing to capture an analog signal and converting that to digital to then scale.

Software emulators can shine in the world of 3D where rendering to a higher resolution and filtering textures can bring out some amazing detail hidden in older games. But for games that rely on a CRT for their look, the MiSTer will do what you want.

Hey I know that guy!

 

[TastyPastry]

Some awesome person , made a video going over the MiSTer's CRT filters. They are best in class, matching what software emulators and the most expensive scalers can do. And unlike the scalers, it has a perfect copy of the image without any noise since it digitally has the image rather than needing to capture an analog signal and converting that to digital to then scale.

Software emulators can shine in the world of 3D where rendering to a higher resolution and filtering textures can bring out some amazing detail hidden in older games. But for games that rely on a CRT for their look, the MiSTer will do what you want.

wait, how is it possible that mister crt filters are best in class when something like crt royal requires a fairly potent cpu/gpu? i'd like to see a video or something comparing the mister filters with some of the more demanding retroarch shaders. if what you're saying is true it's going to make my decision between software emulation and mister even more difficult. i guess in that case the only "downside" for me to a mister setup that i can still think of is that it has no nice looking frontend that shows of the games cover art.

i'm mostly interested in emulating 16 bit stuff like snes, MD and 90s arcade games (the ps1 mister core also looks interesting). for GC and PS2 i need to do software emulation anyway.

 

[Soodanim]

wait, how is it possible that mister crt filters are best in class when something like crt royal requires a fairly potent cpu/gpu? i'd like to see a video or something comparing the mister filters with some of the more demanding retroarch shaders. if what you're saying is true it's going to make my decision between software emulation even more difficult. i guess in that case the only "downside" for me to a mister setup that i can still think of is that it has no nice looking frontend that shows of the games cover art.

i'm mostly interested in emulating 16 bit stuff like snes, MD and 90s arcade games (the ps1 mister core also looks interesting). for GC and PS2 i need to do software emulation anyway.

I'm joining you on the doubt side of this. I've used the top tier emulator filters out there, like CyberLab's Death To Pixels, and there's no way what VGE's video shows comes anywhere close.

The top tier filters are made to pass a side by side of subpixel macro shots against CRTs and PVMs themselves, they're on a different level. It's going to take a lot to beat that.

 

[SScorpio]

I'm joining you on the doubt side of this. I've used the top tier emulator filters out there, like CyberLab's Death To Pixels, and there's no way what VGE's video shows comes anywhere close.

The top tier filters are made to pass a side by side of subpixel macro shots against CRTs and PVMs themselves, they're on a different level. It's going to take a lot to beat that.

From the video on that site, the only effect I haven't seen the MiSTer recreate was a very bad-quality CRT. There is a preset for 80s arcade which has a soft and blurry image, but it's not as intense as what was in the video. I played on bad TVs like that back in the day, if you want that effect cool. But I'll go with something that doesn't look horrible.

From the end of the video and most of the screen captures on that site, there is a grid effect being used. That isn't how CRTs displayed an image. MiSTer and Retroarch have the option of applying a shadow mask which generally offsets a row much like seats in a theater rather than a x/y grid. This replicates how the subpixels were displayed on different types of CRTs. So yes, you can get PVM, consumer TV, or even VGA monitor looks. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shadow_mask

There are powerful PC shaders that try to replicate the scanning of the electron gun, as well as shifting the image slightly to replicate problems with the display. Yes, that's accurate with how CRTs were. And no the MiSTer doesn't do that. The MiSTer instead focuses on what would the best-looking image using this hardware looks like and delivers that.

How does the MiSTer pull off the effects it does? Well the FPGA side runs the actual console core, with an analog IO board you can output an analog signal that you'd get out of a real console down to the ability to use real lightguns on CRTs which rely on precise timings of the electron gun's position in drawing the image while you are pulling the trigger. But on the digital side, you have a framebuffer that puts the complete analog frame into a memory buffer, and then a scaler is run against the buffer to change it to the desired output in 240p to 720p/1080p,1440p, etc. That scaling is done on the MiSTer's ARM side which also handles regular IO for your USB controllers and the like. There's the ARM processor, as well as a GPU. The filters are just painstakingly tweaked mathematical algorithms. And that scaling and the filters applied to the image occur every 16.66667ms so you have just one frame of latency. https://github.com/MiSTer-devel/Filters_MiSTer/tree/master/Filters

If you're using a digital display, all you need is the DE-10 Nano, SD-RAM module, SD Card, and a cheap $5 OTG micro USB hub to connect a keyboard, USB controller, and/or BlueTooth adapter. This configuration will run every single core, and only the analog side of things would be missing. Which, if you aren't using a CRT, aren't needed. If you find that it's not right for you, you can easily turn around and sell everything for what you paid on a local marketplace.

 

[RAIDEN1]

End of the day this is about as good as you'll get with Dreamcast emulation, seeing as Sega are dragging their feet in releasing a mini version of the console...(they had a prime opportunity to release it in 2019, to coincide with its launch anniversary of 1999, but didn't bother then either...)

 

[SScorpio]

End of the day this is about as good as you'll get with Dreamcast emulation, seeing as Sega are dragging their feet in releasing a mini version of the console...(they had a prime opportunity to release it in 2019, to coincide with its launch anniversary of 1999, but didn't bother then either...)

Why not drag their feet for one more year and release something on the 25th anniversary?

 

[Kilau]

Just get one of these for sub $200 ...

Amazon.com: Beelink Mini S12 Pro Mini PC, Intel 12th Gen Alder Lake- N100(up to 3.4GHz), 16GB DDR4 RAM 500GB PCIe SSD, Desktop Computer Support 4K Dual Display/USB3.2/WiFi 6/BT5.2/Gigabit Ethernet for Home/Office : Video Games

Amazon.com: Beelink Mini S12 Pro Mini PC, Intel 12th Gen Alder Lake- N100(up to 3.4GHz), 16GB DDR4 RAM 500GB PCIe SSD, Desktop Computer Support 4K Dual Display/USB3.2/WiFi 6/BT5.2/Gigabit Ethernet for Home/Office : Video Games

www.amazon.com

Totally different idea but does seem attractive if you aren’t serious about accuracy. I imagine it could handle anything pre PS3 just fine.

 

[RAIDEN1]

Why not drag their feet for one more year and release something on the 25th anniversary?

Even so, they aren't going to release anything anytime soon....they are more interested in how many mini-genesis they can create

 

[DryvBy]

What is MISTer?

 

[SScorpio]

What is MISTer?

Have you heard of Analogue's Super NT, Mega SG, etc? Think that but open source and it does all that those consoles do. Analogue supports original cartridges, but outside of that MiSTer does everything they do, and much, much more.

My Life in Gaming did a good video covering the MiSTer project. It's of course outdated already because even more is available. But it's an excellent way to learn about just what is possible.

 

[the_master]

Would love to have the Original Xbox, of course. After the Dreamcast
Later on, the 360

Any plans in the next generation Mister?

 

[German Hops]

Any plans in the next generation Mister?

RISC-V boards.

 

[SScorpio]

Would love to have the Original Xbox, of course. After the Dreamcast
Later on, the 360

Any plans in the next generation Mister?

FPGAs are used in the development of new hardware, but nothing a normal person would buy is currently on the docket. But prior to the DE-10 Nano, the FPGA included with it was on $1,000+ development boards, so who knows what the future will bring.

The original Xbox will be the trickiest of the three from that generation IMO. It's a Pentium 3/Celeron at 700Mhz with a weird Nvidia GPU that falls between a GeForce 3 and 4. On the PC side of the FPGA scene, we have ao486 which I believe was a summer project by an intern for Intel. There is now an 8086 core which goes back to the beginning of the IBM PCs. And I'm hoping that core will branch out and evolve over time into handling the 286, 386, etc as the PC kinda just built on what existed. The Pentium on Voodoo era will be really interesting as there is arcade hardware that is based on variants of it. And MAME doesn't quite run things 100% perfect.

 

[Krathoon]

They already got a game working with the N64 core. I bet that will be ready at the end of the year. I have not tried it out yet.

 

[the_master]

RISC-V boards.

You mean making a mister with risc-v boards?

 

[SScorpio]

They already got a game working with the N64 core. I bet that will be ready at the end of the year. I have not tried it out yet.

The game doesn't use a lot of the N64's hardware, so it's always possible a full core, or full performance won't work.

But Robert seems to keep pulling off impossible miracle after important miracle. So well just have to wait and see.

 

[Spukc]

Just get one of these for sub $200 ...

Amazon.com: Beelink Mini S12 Pro Mini PC, Intel 12th Gen Alder Lake- N100(up to 3.4GHz), 16GB DDR4 RAM 500GB PCIe SSD, Desktop Computer Support 4K Dual Display/USB3.2/WiFi 6/BT5.2/Gigabit Ethernet for Home/Office : Video Games

Amazon.com: Beelink Mini S12 Pro Mini PC, Intel 12th Gen Alder Lake- N100(up to 3.4GHz), 16GB DDR4 RAM 500GB PCIe SSD, Desktop Computer Support 4K Dual Display/USB3.2/WiFi 6/BT5.2/Gigabit Ethernet for Home/Office : Video Games

www.amazon.com

Why Spend $80 on an SNES Classic When You Can Install Emulators on a Raspberry Pi and Never Shut the Fuck Up About It?

Nintendo’s highly coveted SNES Classic Mini system comes out today and is certain to be a hot item. A word of advice to gamers who…

hard-drive.net

 

[Soodanim]

From the video on that site, the only effect I haven't seen the MiSTer recreate was a very bad-quality CRT. There is a preset for 80s arcade which has a soft and blurry image, but it's not as intense as what was in the video. I played on bad TVs like that back in the day, if you want that effect cool. But I'll go with something that doesn't look horrible.

From the end of the video and most of the screen captures on that site, there is a grid effect being used. That isn't how CRTs displayed an image. MiSTer and Retroarch have the option of applying a shadow mask which generally offsets a row much like seats in a theater rather than a x/y grid. This replicates how the subpixels were displayed on different types of CRTs. So yes, you can get PVM, consumer TV, or even VGA monitor looks. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shadow_mask

There are powerful PC shaders that try to replicate the scanning of the electron gun, as well as shifting the image slightly to replicate problems with the display. Yes, that's accurate with how CRTs were. And no the MiSTer doesn't do that. The MiSTer instead focuses on what would the best-looking image using this hardware looks like and delivers that.

How does the MiSTer pull off the effects it does? Well the FPGA side runs the actual console core, with an analog IO board you can output an analog signal that you'd get out of a real console down to the ability to use real lightguns on CRTs which rely on precise timings of the electron gun's position in drawing the image while you are pulling the trigger. But on the digital side, you have a framebuffer that puts the complete analog frame into a memory buffer, and then a scaler is run against the buffer to change it to the desired output in 240p to 720p/1080p,1440p, etc. That scaling is done on the MiSTer's ARM side which also handles regular IO for your USB controllers and the like. There's the ARM processor, as well as a GPU. The filters are just painstakingly tweaked mathematical algorithms. And that scaling and the filters applied to the image occur every 16.66667ms so you have just one frame of latency. https://github.com/MiSTer-devel/Filters_MiSTer/tree/master/Filters

If you're using a digital display, all you need is the DE-10 Nano, SD-RAM module, SD Card, and a cheap $5 OTG micro USB hub to connect a keyboard, USB controller, and/or BlueTooth adapter. This configuration will run every single core, and only the analog side of things would be missing. Which, if you aren't using a CRT, aren't needed. If you find that it's not right for you, you can easily turn around and sell everything for what you paid on a local marketplace.

The technical side is interesting, and you're obviously either personally connected/involved or a huge fan, but it's largely beside the point regarding this claim:

They are best in class, matching what software emulators and the most expensive scalers can do

And nothing that has been shown has come close to changing my mind. Shaders are achieving accuracy, they're achieving enhancement, they're achieving pretty much any look you can possibly want and if that github page is anything to go by they're worlds apart. I'm not saying MISTer is bad, and there are big fans out there for good reason. But the above claim seems factually false given the shaders out there these days, at least on what I've seen of MISTer's filters.

The one video in the OP of the thread I linked isn't an accurate representation of the DTP pack, let alone other LibRetro/RetroArch shaders. The thread alone has years of showcase screenshots.

Hell, on the latency side of things, emulators now often have run-ahead. While demanding, it cuts input lag down to original hardware levels. If you have a good PC, emulation can do pretty much anything you need these days, If it's accuracy, There's emulators like Ares that focus solely on that. Personally I'm in it for improvements, so I'll run widescreen hacks and shaders that bring out the best in the graphics rather than emulating the flaws. There's always a compromise to be had when certain graphic effects are used, like dithering and, say, SotN's pixel bleed to make Dracula's red eyes glow rather than being just a red pixel.

 

[SScorpio]

The technical side is interesting, and you're obviously either personally connected/involved or a huge fan, but it's largely beside the point regarding this claim:

And nothing that has been shown has come close to changing my mind. Shaders are achieving accuracy, they're achieving enhancement, they're achieving pretty much any look you can possibly want and if that github page is anything to go by they're worlds apart. I'm not saying MISTer is bad, and there are big fans out there for good reason. But the above claim seems factually false given the shaders out there these days, at least on what I've seen of MISTer's filters.

The one video in the OP of the thread I linked isn't an accurate representation of the DTP pack, let alone other LibRetro/RetroArch shaders. The thread alone has years of showcase screenshots.

Hell, on the latency side of things, emulators now often have run-ahead. While demanding, it cuts input lag down to original hardware levels. If you have a good PC, emulation can do pretty much anything you need these days, If it's accuracy, There's emulators like Ares that focus solely on that. Personally I'm in it for improvements, so I'll run widescreen hacks and shaders that bring out the best in the graphics rather than emulating the flaws. There's always a compromise to be had when certain graphic effects are used, like dithering and, say, SotN's pixel bleed to make Dracula's red eyes glow rather than being just a red pixel.

None of the images in that thread show off any advanced shader effects. Even the imaging showing sub-pixels still has them in a fixed grid rather than having the much more common offset shadow masks. But complex CRTs effects are impossible to show off in a screenshot. You need a pretty much raw video to really see it. Any type of compression starts eating away at the effect as the compression wants to blend colors, and do other things that compromise the look. The top scalers on the market like the Retrotink 5x do the same thing the MiSTer does, but it's always possible there's something I don't know about. Please free to reference something I might have not covered. But if your belief is that your emulators are the best ever, I guess good for you, and don't compare FPGA and original hardware. It's one of those things where after you see the flaws, you can't unsee them.

But there are reasons tournaments stick to original hardware and FPGA rather than using emulators. Unless you try the different options you can't really have a valid point of reference to form an objective opinion. I've used emulators for over 25 years and pay with the new features and tricks, some of it like 3D HD rendering and texture swaps, etc are awesome. But even with run-ahead, comparing software, versus original hardware on a CRT, and an FPGA solution. For me the FPGA wins hands down, a computer with an OS running between the emulator process and you playing. You can't get away from uneven processing times. Yes, it completes in the necessary time per frame, but it still doesn't feel right and task switching can introduce micro juttering which unfortunately is affecting more and more modern PC games as well.

 

[German Hops]

You mean making a mister with risc-v boards?

Yes. It's the logical next step.

 

[the_master]

Yes. It's the logical next step.

Would that be able to run xbox and 360 games?

 

[German Hops]

Would that be able to run xbox and 360 games?

No.

 

[Soodanim]

None of the images in that thread show off any advanced shader effects. Even the imaging showing sub-pixels still has them in a fixed grid rather than having the much more common offset shadow masks. But complex CRTs effects are impossible to show off in a screenshot. You need a pretty much raw video to really see it. Any type of compression starts eating away at the effect as the compression wants to blend colors, and do other things that compromise the look. The top scalers on the market like the Retrotink 5x do the same thing the MiSTer does, but it's always possible there's something I don't know about. Please free to reference something I might have not covered. But if your belief is that your emulators are the best ever, I guess good for you, and don't compare FPGA and original hardware. It's one of those things where after you see the flaws, you can't unsee them.

But there are reasons tournaments stick to original hardware and FPGA rather than using emulators. Unless you try the different options you can't really have a valid point of reference to form an objective opinion. I've used emulators for over 25 years and pay with the new features and tricks, some of it like 3D HD rendering and texture swaps, etc are awesome. But even with run-ahead, comparing software, versus original hardware on a CRT, and an FPGA solution. For me the FPGA wins hands down, a computer with an OS running between the emulator process and you playing. You can't get away from uneven processing times. Yes, it completes in the necessary time per frame, but it still doesn't feel right and task switching can introduce micro juttering which unfortunately is affecting more and more modern PC games as well.

I definitely don't think emulators are the best ever. Emulators do their best to mitigate their flaws, but they will nearly always be chasing hardware solutions by their very nature.

But what I am saying is that the one thing emulators can do is utilise modern GPUs and apply a obscene number of options to accurately imitate older display technology as well as all manner of options and alternatives, and I've not seen anything to say that MISTer comes anywhere close to that. Software goes above and beyond, partially because it needs to. But if there's one thing it excels at, it's that.

On the topic of retro TV tech, I haven't yet tried these but they look quite promising:

Spoiler: Bonus sequel

I like this comparison from VGE (keeping the theme going), I find it to be a decent comparison.

Spoiler

There's also this one, but I do need to tag VGEsoterica what emu/sound he was using for MD/Gen, because there's a lot you can do there that I think might minimise the gap between that and the undoubtedly better MISTer.

 

[Dacvak]

My dream would be to have a Sega Naomi core, which is in the same ballpark as Dreamcast. I don't think it'll ever happen, though.

My real question is do you think we'll ever have a reasonable MiSTer successor? The DE10 Nano is a subsidized educational FPGA (iirc), which is the only reason why it's not thousands of dollars. I feel like there's not a lot of incentive for Intel to offer a more powerful FPGA any time even remotely soon for the price of a DE10 Nano.

 

[SScorpio]

My dream would be to have a Sega Naomi core, which is in the same ballpark as Dreamcast. I don't think it'll ever happen, though.

My real question is do you think we'll ever have a reasonable MiSTer successor? The DE10 Nano is a subsidized educational FPGA (iirc), which is the only reason why it's not thousands of dollars. I feel like there's not a lot of incentive for Intel to offer a more powerful FPGA any time even remotely soon for the price of a DE10 Nano.

Yes, we'll of course have something, eventually. Will it be in five years? Ten? No one knows, it might not even be a Terrasic board. There's an ongoing project right now converting the MiSTer to alternative hardware. Many of the cores have also been ported to the Analogue Pocket, though on that it's just the system core itself and not the MiSTer framework that gives you all the IO, video filters, etc.

The DE-10 Nano was picked because it had a lot of performance, a lot of IO, and included HDMI onboard. You could get other boards that had SDRAM so you wouldn't need that add-on board, but then they were lacking other features of the DE-10 Nano. At some point, something with more performance will come along at a good price and there will be a migration over to it.

I definitely don't think emulators are the best ever. Emulators do their best to mitigate their flaws, but they will nearly always be chasing hardware solutions by their very nature.

But what I am saying is that the one thing emulators can do is utilise modern GPUs and apply a obscene number of options to accurately imitate older display technology as well as all manner of options and alternatives, and I've not seen anything to say that MISTer comes anywhere close to that. Software goes above and beyond, partially because it needs to. But if there's one thing it excels at, it's that.

On the topic of retro TV tech, I haven't yet tried these but they look quite promising:

Spoiler: Bonus sequel

I like this comparison from VGE (keeping the theme going), I find it to be a decent comparison.

Spoiler

There's also this one, but I do need to tag VGEsoterica what emu/sound he was using for MD/Gen, because there's a lot you can do there that I think might minimise the gap between that and the undoubtedly better MISTer.

Your first video is just showing off Shadow Masks. MiSTer does that and also has profiles to give you that composite and SVideo look used in some of the comparisons. There's also a blurry TV setting which I feel makes it blurrier than the composite Retroarch examples, but not to the level of RF. Changing the consumer TV type, PVM, or VGA monitor will switch to different masks and give you the same look as the different options in that video.

The second video discusses dithering and composite blending. And the MiSTer has options to enable that as well to give you that real look.

Just a warning that the MiSTer comparison video you posted will be two years old next month. Things can quickly change in months if not weeks. The sound should be perfect in an up-to-date emulator and of course on MiSTer.

That BSNES video is from Nov 2021, so it's over 1.5 years old as well. But did you notice in the Contra test the desync with BSNES? MiSTer has been sync tested to real hardware and matches it after running for several hours never getting a frame ahead on the tested cores.


Here's a good video going over how CRTs worked and comparing them. There's good off-screen capture from several models. Notice how the Trinitron has a nice stable image, the MiSTer can make its games look just like that. But on some of the other TVs, you'll see the image shifting on different frames. That's just down to a lower quality or even just aging TV. MiSTer doesn't do things quite to that level. I remember conversations from 4-5 years ago where it was talked about for software emulators and I thought it was being implemented. But I can't find any videos showcasing it, so maybe I'm misremembering.

 

[Miyazaki’s Slave]

definitely PS2

btw i'm still going back and forth between building a software emulation setup or a mister setup for my retro gaming. correct me if i'm wrong but mister only really makes sense if you are using a crt when it comes to visual accuracy right? i know mister supports some filters/shadow mask to get that crt look but as far as i know the really good crt shaders in retroarch like crt royal require lots of power which a de10 nano obviously doesn't have. so when using mister on a oled the games might run perfect but in terms of visuals and the games looking like you remember them software emulation on a good pc might be the better choice right?

also love your youtube channel op

If you don't have a CRT you can get the MiSTer Digital I/O board instead of the Analog. It will give you some additional options at the cost of losing the ability to output an analog signal.

I also personally recommend Misteraddons.com, their shipping is fast, prices are decent/good, and customer service is awesome. I have build 5 or so full units and have used them each time.

VGEsoterica or some of the other folks here may have better recommendations for part procurement as well.

 

[Grechy34]

TBH I'd rather see old cores get finished. Saturn/X68000 etc.

 

[SScorpio]

If you don't have a CRT you can get the MiSTer Digital I/O board instead of the Analog. It will give you some additional options at the cost of losing the ability to output an analog signal.

FYI, there's Direct Video which plugs into the HDMI port. The analog port gives you dual digital and analog output.

Direct Video Adapter - MiSTer FPGA Documentation

MiSTer FPGA is an open source project that aims to recreate various classic computers, game consoles, and arcade machines, using modern hardware.

mister-devel.github.io

 

[Miyazaki’s Slave]

FYI, there's Direct Video which plugs into the HDMI port. The analog port gives you dual digital and analog output.

Direct Video Adapter - MiSTer FPGA Documentation

MiSTer FPGA is an open source project that aims to recreate various classic computers, game consoles, and arcade machines, using modern hardware.

mister-devel.github.io

That is awesome!

If you go with the digital I/O board you also get an additional SD card a lot and sodimm slot (if you want to use it for that).

Both are great options!

 

[TastyPastry]

If you don't have a CRT you can get the MiSTer Digital I/O board instead of the Analog. It will give you some additional options at the cost of losing the ability to output an analog signal.

I also personally recommend Misteraddons.com, their shipping is fast, prices are decent/good, and customer service is awesome. I have build 5 or so full units and have used them each time.

VGEsoterica or some of the other folks here may have better recommendations for part procurement as well.

thanks! if i decide to do a mister setup i might still go for the analog one because who knows, eventually i might get my hands on a crt. also yeah i would definitely get a pre build mister from that site because i am too clumsy and lazy to build that thing myself, plus that case looks great

honestly though reading this thread i still haven't quite understood how the mister filters can be on the same level as some advanced and demanding retroarch shaders

 

[Soodanim]

Yes, we'll of course have something, eventually. Will it be in five years? Ten? No one knows, it might not even be a Terrasic board. There's an ongoing project right now converting the MiSTer to alternative hardware. Many of the cores have also been ported to the Analogue Pocket, though on that it's just the system core itself and not the MiSTer framework that gives you all the IO, video filters, etc.

The DE-10 Nano was picked because it had a lot of performance, a lot of IO, and included HDMI onboard. You could get other boards that had SDRAM so you wouldn't need that add-on board, but then they were lacking other features of the DE-10 Nano. At some point, something with more performance will come along at a good price and there will be a migration over to it.




Your first video is just showing off Shadow Masks. MiSTer does that and also has profiles to give you that composite and SVideo look used in some of the comparisons. There's also a blurry TV setting which I feel makes it blurrier than the composite Retroarch examples, but not to the level of RF. Changing the consumer TV type, PVM, or VGA monitor will switch to different masks and give you the same look as the different options in that video.

The second video discusses dithering and composite blending. And the MiSTer has options to enable that as well to give you that real look.

Just a warning that the MiSTer comparison video you posted will be two years old next month. Things can quickly change in months if not weeks. The sound should be perfect in an up-to-date emulator and of course on MiSTer.

That BSNES video is from Nov 2021, so it's over 1.5 years old as well. But did you notice in the Contra test the desync with BSNES? MiSTer has been sync tested to real hardware and matches it after running for several hours never getting a frame ahead on the tested cores.


Here's a good video going over how CRTs worked and comparing them. There's good off-screen capture from several models. Notice how the Trinitron has a nice stable image, the MiSTer can make its games look just like that. But on some of the other TVs, you'll see the image shifting on different frames. That's just down to a lower quality or even just aging TV. MiSTer doesn't do things quite to that level. I remember conversations from 4-5 years ago where it was talked about for software emulators and I thought it was being implemented. But I can't find any videos showcasing it, so maybe I'm misremembering.

I feel like I've heard something along the lines of the pixel/image shift too, but I couldn't give you anything more than that.

To be honest I'm never ever in the mood for those lower quality filters/shaders and I don't know why you would be even with nostalgia. There's a level of blur that I find fundamentally offputting. Most NTSC looks I find to be the same. I'm using modern technology to improve and enhance where I can, and if I can bring out the best in graphics and make games look better than they ever did (to my taste) I'm definitely going to. Accuracy be damned. Old screenshot of mine:

Spoiler

Sonic 2 (Widescreen hack) in RetroArch with an older version of CyberLabs' Death To Pixels

 

[cartman414]

TBH I'd rather see old cores get finished. Saturn/X68000 etc.

You're not alone, but IIRC those cores are being worked on by different people.

If there's one advantage emulators have right now, it's HLE level 3d emulation of PS2 and beyond.