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[saelz8]

AMSTERDAM (Reuters) - A Dutch Muslim group was fined 2,500 euros ($3,200) for publishing a cartoon which suggested the Holocaust was made up or exaggerated by Jews, a Dutch appeals court ruled on Thursday.

The court in the western city of Arnhem overruled an acquittal handed down by a Dutch lower court, saying the cartoon, published on the website of the Arab European League's (AEL) in 2006, was "unnecessarily hurtful."

"The court points out that the European Court of Human Rights, which considers freedom of speech of paramount importance and defends it thoroughly, makes an exception for the denial or trivialization of the Holocaust," the court said.

The court also imposed a 2-year probation period on the AEL.

The cartoon shows two men in Auschwitz looking at several dead bodies. "I don't think they are Jews," says one man. The one man replies: "We have to get to the 6,000,000 (figure) somehow'. Six million Jews were killed during the Holocaust.

The Dutch group says it had no intention of disputing the Holocaust, but wanted instead to highlight what it described as double standards in free speech.

The AEL circulated it in 2006 after a Danish newspaper published a cartoon of the Prophet Mohammad which triggered an outcry among Muslims in many countries.

Source

:lol Mission accomplished?

 

[2San]

:lol Mission accomplished?

Pretty much. :lol

 

[msv]

Ugh. Might be tasteless/offensive, but to hand out a fine for a drawing...

 

[Bleepey]

Couldn't it be argued that one is attacking an ethnic group (not protected) whilst one is criticising a religion (protected).

 

[Ashes]

Making light and even mockery of the Holocaust, to make a point? :/
It will be interesting to see the media reaction, but... well we've had this debate before...

 

[Cyan]

Hallowed ground.

 

[Dabookerman]

I expect isreal to start trashing some lights

 

[KHarvey16]

Nice to have a topic about something the US is better at for a change!

 

[vordhosbn]

delicious irony and western hypocrisy.:lol

 

[Ashes]

Couldn't it be argued that one is attacking an ethnic group (not protected) whilst one is criticising a religion (protected).

Holocaust denial is illegal in some countries. So it is protected.

 

[Funky Papa]

And the sad thing is that anybody who challenges such stupid laws is automatically labeled a nazi, with the Jewish organizations being the first in line.

Ugh.

 

[vordhosbn]

Couldn't it be argued that one is attacking an ethnic group (not protected) whilst one is criticising a religion (protected).

If I'm not mistaken half that died weren't even jewish, even so I think you missed the point they were trying to make completely.

 

[jamesinclair]

Theyve made a good point.

The european rules that ban things like nazi souvenirs are complete BS.

And yeah, like another poster said, anyone defending free speech would immediately be called a nazi sympathizer.

 

[Dabookerman]

6 mil -Jews- died. Plus the other 5 mil or so

 

[Metalic Sand]

Really dont get how the 2 can be compared. This is like Holocaust cartoon/Prophet mohammad cartoon right?

Fine does seem stupid though.

 

[ClovingWestbrook]

Free speech? Ehh, who needs it.

 

[Meus Renaissance]

Really dont get how the 2 can be compared. This is like Holocaust cartoon/Prophet mohammad cartoon right?

Fine does seem stupid though.

I thought this too. Someone drawing the Prophet Muhammad isn't necessarily doing so to offend, whereas these drawings were. Havign said, there were some depictions of the Muslim prophet wearing a bomb or something from what I remember, and that in itself was defended as free speech. I guess the point of this story is that you can get convicted if you intentionally offend a group of people - something many dismissed as ridiculous originally with those Muslim cartoons. Freedom of speech is supposed to include freedom to offend. Not in this example apparently.

 

[Cyan]

I guess the point of this story is that you can get convicted if you intentionally offend a group of people - something many dismissed as ridiculous originally with those Muslim cartoons.

Right... because it is ridiculous.

 

[Meus Renaissance]

Right... because it is ridiculous.

That's we all thought. Until this

 

[Cyan]

That's we all thought. Until this

What I'm saying is that there's no "until this," no past tense. It's still ridiculous.

 

[Akainu]

I hope no Jews start trying to kill the cartoonists.

 

[Meus Renaissance]

What I'm saying is that there's no "until this," no past tense. It's still ridiculous.

So, out of interest, how would you describe this decision?

 

[Ashes]

I hope no Jews start trying to kill the cartoonists.

This. But I can't think of a precedent in that direction.
I'm hoping we don't get a let's draw holocaust denials day to celeberate freedom of speech and fight this 'ridiculous' infringement of rights and/or double standards. Some of the cartoons on Draw Muhammed day were pretty horrible... And I worry that there is a quite a bit of antisemitism in the world we live in.
Having said that, there is a difference between the holocaust, and drawing Muhammed. At least to me.

 

[Big-E]

Two situations aren't really similar. Religious cartoons are not the same as cartoons saying the Holocaust didn't exist or was completely overblown.

 

[KHarvey16]

I'm hoping we don't get a let's draw holocaust denials day to celeberate freedom of speech and fight this 'ridiculous' infringement of rights and/or double standards.

Why not? It is a ridiculous infringement of rights. Can I make a joke about or deny other genocides or attempted genocides? Why? Who decides what I can and cannot express an opinion about?

The law is completely stupid.

 

[Prine]

They shouldn't have done this.

 

[Exypher]

Why not? It is a ridiculous infringement of rights. Can I make a joke about or deny other genocides or attempted genocides? Why? Who decides what I can and cannot express an opinion about?

The law is completely stupid.

The law decides, and the court judges.

When these pictures were first posted, the Prosecutor requested them to be taken down or otherwise prosecution would follow. At first the website complied, but later they decided to post the pictures on the website again. So this prosecution was not the first course of action taken (the fine is not even really 2500 euros by the way, but that's a technicality). Second of all, this decision is not from the highest court in The Netherlands and it is possible that an appeal will be made, so this decision is not yet final.

The reason the fine was given is because the suggestion that the holocaust is in any way surreptitiously made up or exaggerated, by the victims of it no less, is extraordinarily offensive to the victims and their offspring. The cartoon was not only offensive, it was more offensive than was justified in order to reach the goal the website was trying to reach (taking part in the debate regarding the double standard when it comes to freedom of speech) which could have been accomplished in many other ways.

 

[Evlar]

What point were they trying to make?

 

[GoldenEye 007]

Good to see an institutional blatant trampling of a basic human right!

 

[Xeke]

The law decides, and the court judges.

When these pictures were first posted, the Prosecutor requested them to be taken down or otherwise prosecution would follow. At first the website complied, but later they decided to post the pictures on the website again. So this prosecution was not the first course of action taken (the fine is not even really 2500 euros by the way, but that's a technicality). Second of all, this decision is not from the highest court in The Netherlands and it is possible that an appeal will be made, so this decision is not yet final.

The reason the fine was given is because the suggestion that the holocaust is in any way surreptitiously made up or exaggerated, by the victims of it no less, is extraordinarily offensive to the victims and their offspring. The cartoon was not only offensive, it was more offensive than was justified in order to reach the goal the website was trying to reach (taking part in the debate regarding the double standard when it comes to freedom of speech) which could have been accomplished in many other ways.

Europe doesn't care for freedom of speech.

 

[Celsior]

What point were they trying to make?

Comparing it to the other comic but in a very stupid approach.
Also

The Netherlands

While Holocaust denial is not explicitly illegal in The Netherlands, the courts consider it a form of spreading hatred and therefore an offence.[33] According to the Dutch public prosecution office, offensive remarks are only punishable by Dutch law if they equate to discrimination against a particular group.[34] The relevant laws of the Dutch penal code are as follows:

So, any holocaust stuff falls under the discrimination laws so it is obvious why they got fined.

 

[perfectchaos007]

So I guess this means the 3 banned southpark episodes with Muhammod can be unbanned?

 

[2San]

The reason the fine was given is because the suggestion that the holocaust is in any way surreptitiously made up or exaggerated, by the victims of it no less, is extraordinarily offensive to the victims and their offspring. The cartoon was not only offensive, it was more offensive than was justified in order to reach the goal the website was trying to reach (taking part in the debate regarding the double standard when it comes to freedom of speech) which could have been accomplished in many other ways.

The same holds true with the whole draw Mohammed day debacle, it could have been accomplished in many other ways. There are a lot of Muslims hurt by this and it's fair to say you can't compare the suffering. It's hard to say which group suffered more, which makes the whole if this many people suffered you are above freedom of speech stand weird. It simply doesn't compute.

In the end I'd rather have too much freedom of speech.

So I guess this means the 3 banned southpark episodes with Muhammod can be unbanned?

That was never done by the government though.

 

[Funky Papa]

I hope no Jews start trying to kill the cartoonists.

It won't happen, but as I said, campaigning for actual freedom of speech in Europe is the safest way to end your career. Teachers and journalists have lost their jobs after being targeted by Jewish, leftists and conservative organizations for claiming that freedom of speech should be universal.

 

[KHarvey16]

The law decides, and the court judges.

They have specifically excepted the Holocaust from their freedom of speech law. They decided that was special. Other horrific deeds do not matter as much apparently.

It's arbitrary and silly.

so this decision is not yet final.

Well that's good.

The reason the fine was given is because the suggestion that the holocaust is in any way surreptitiously made up or exaggerated, by the victims of it no less, is extraordinarily offensive to the victims and their offspring. The cartoon was not only offensive, it was more offensive than was justified in order to reach the goal the website was trying to reach (taking part in the debate regarding the double standard when it comes to freedom of speech) which could have been accomplished in many other ways.

Why should I care if someone gets offended? No one has a right to not be offended.

 

[Slavik81]

I thought this too. Someone drawing the Prophet Muhammad isn't necessarily doing so to offend, whereas these drawings were. Havign said, there were some depictions of the Muslim prophet wearing a bomb or something from what I remember, and that in itself was defended as free speech. I guess the point of this story is that you can get convicted if you intentionally offend a group of people - something many dismissed as ridiculous originally with those Muslim cartoons. Freedom of speech is supposed to include freedom to offend. Not in this example apparently.

It shouldn't matter if you're denying the holocaust for the purpose of offending people or just because you think it's the truth. And, in fact, in many places it doesn't. But either way. The point of the story is that in many European countries, the government does not really stand behind freedom of speech like they may say they do.

Even beyond the hypocrisy, the law is ridiculous. There's an old saying, "Better to keep your mouth closed and be thought a fool than to open it and remove all doubt." Unfortunately, we force holocaust deniers to keep their mouths shut, giving them no chance to prove to everyone how stupid their beliefs are.

Edited for accuracy.

 

[Celsior]

It won't happen, but as I said, campaigning for actual freedom of speech in Europe is the safest way to end your career. Teachers and journalists have lost their jobs and their reputation after being targeted by Jewish, leftists and conservative organizations for claiming that freedom of speech should be universal.

Jews are there own political group............how the fuck do you know about our Jewish conspiracy?

 

[Funky Papa]

Don't be silly :lol

 

[Exypher]

The same holds true with the whole draw Mohammed day debacle, it could have been accomplished in many other ways. There are a lot of Muslims hurt by this and it's fair to say you can't compare the suffering. It's hard to say which group suffered more, which makes the whole if this many people suffered you are above freedom of speech stand weird. It simply doesn't compute.

In the end I'd rather have too much freedom of speech.

I would say the denial of the murder of 6 million Jews is more offensive than drawings of Mohammad, but we will have to agree to disagree.

Don't forget that Geert Wilders is also being prosecuted for similar reasons except in his case it is because his statements were offensive to Muslims - this isn't really a double standard, although they both are an infringement on freedom of speech.

They have specifically excepted the Holocaust from their freedom of speech law. They decided that was special. Other horrific deeds do not matter as much apparently.

It's arbitrary and silly.

No, they have not. Don't make stuff up.

 

[KHarvey16]

No, they have not. Don't make stuff up.

It's in the article at the top of the page! It's a quote directly from the court.

 

[Chichikov]

delicious irony and western hypocrisy.:lol

Where's the hypocrisy?
One cartoon was legal, one was not.
You can say the law is not fair, but you know, since it didn't even happen the same country it's a bit silly.

 

[Nemo]

Oh Free Speech, you win again this time

 

[Xeke]

Where's the hypocrisy?
One cartoon was legal, one was not.
You can say the law is not fair, but you know, since it didn't even happen the same country it's a bit silly.

It's absurd that a cartoon can be illegal.

 

[2San]

I would say the denial of the murder of 6 million Jews is more offensive than drawings of Mohammad, but we will have to agree to disagree.

Don't forget that Geert Wilders is also being prosecuted for similar reasons except in his case it is because his statements were offensive to Muslims - this isn't really a double standard, although they both are an infringement on freedom of speech.

That's the thing you don't know how much it affects people how import religion is to people how many people it affects. You simply can't compare this with the means we have available.

Prosecuted, but in the end nothing happened afaik. As much as I dislike the guy wouldn't want to see the guy going to jail for this either.

 

[Chichikov]

It's absurd that a cartoon can be illegal.

Agreed (for the most part), but that's a problem with Dutch law, not a proof of western hypocrisy, anti-Muslim sentiment or Jewish bias (though all three exist to an extent) like some people, and the creators of this cartoon are among them, are trying to claim.

 

[Exypher]

It's in the article at the top of the page! It's a quote directly from the court.

That statement does not tell the whole story.

Dutch law does not have any special law regarding the denial of the holocaust. The prosecution in this case is based on the fact that the cartoon is offensive to people of a certain religion (in this case, the Jewish people). The Dutch court in their decision made mention of the tendency of the European Court of Human Rights to view the denial of the holocaust as a "special case" - this is simply the interpretation the court has made of jurisprudence from the ECHR. Perhaps the highest court (or even the ECHR itself) will judge differently.

That's the thing you don't know how much it affects people how import religion is to people how many people it affects. You simply can't compare this with the means we have available.

Prosecuted, but in the end nothing happened afaik. As much as I dislike the guy wouldn't want to see the guy going to jail for this either.

Decision still needs to be made regarding Wilders, so we will see.

 

[KHarvey16]

That statement does not tell the whole story.

Dutch law does not have any special law regarding the denial of the holocaust. The prosecution in this case is based on the fact that the cartoon is offensive to people of a certain religion (in this case, the Jewish people) The Dutch court in their decision made mention of the tendency of the European Court of Human Rights to view the denial of the holocaust as a "special case" - this is simply the interpretation the court has made of jurisprudence from the ECHR. Perhaps the highest court (or even the ECHR itself) will judge differently.

I didn't say they had a special law for the holocaust, I said they excepted it from their law and that's precisely what this court has done. It's completely ridiculous and the fact that the European Court of Human Rights spells it out like that should be cause for embarrassment. It's incredibly small minded.

 

[speculawyer]

:lol Mission accomplished?

Indeed. Well played Dutch Muslim group.

 

[speculawyer]

Dutch law does not have any special law regarding the denial of the holocaust. The prosecution in this case is based on the fact that the cartoon is offensive to people of a certain religion (in this case, the Jewish people).

As an atheist, I find all religion offensive. Can they please lock up everyone but me?

 

[2San]

Decision still needs to be made regarding Wilders, so we will see.

Love this country so much, but our legal system is sooo fucking slow. >_<