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[pancakesandsex]

Why do yearly updates of sports games consistently get high scores and rave reviews, year after year, yet incrementaly updated games like Dynasty Warriors/Samurai Warriors get panned more and more with each sequel? What gives? Aren't both franchises basically doing the same thing?

There are other games that would fit the model im presenting, but i cant think of any good examples at the moment, so i'm going with this.


Discuss

 

[Gigglepoo]

Splinter Cell always gets good reviews. Yearly updates getting good reviews isn't limited to sports games.

And Madden did get some harsher reviews this year. Probably because it plays just like Madden '97 and people are finally catching on.

 

[Pureauthor]

Actually, I think Madden changes more per iteration than Dynasty Warriors.

 

[Sinatar]

The Dynasty Warriors series was never acclaimed to begin with, it's just a franchise that reviewers tend to dislike.

 

[Drek]

Because last time I checked Guan Yu didn't ditch Liu Bei in the off-season to go fight for Cao Cao.

Updated rosters compel millions to buy basically the same game every year, reviewers need to review it as an entirely new product or alienate readers and the software publisher alike.

Non-EA sports games that do little more than a roster upgrade do get slammed, thats why most studios try their damnedest to keep improving their product. EA is just the big fat cat who doesn't need to worry about it as they have the industry by the balls (because they have the consumer loyalty).

For what its worth, several installments in Madden recently didn't score in the 90th percentile with several major reviewers because they were so derivative. They still landed scores north of 80%, but hey, its a start.

And Dynasty Warriors doesn't deserve above an 80% rating until they can get rid of all that damn fog.

 

[DMczaf]

And Madden did get some harsher reviews this year. Probably because it plays just like Madden '97 and people are finally catching on.

"Are you retarded?"

 

[Stabby McSter]

It's probably because people think Madden is a lot more fun than Dynasty Warriors.

 

[C- Warrior]

The Dynasty Warriors series was never acclaimed to begin with, it's just a genre that western-reviewers tend to dislike.

fixed

 

[Pureauthor]

Because last time I checked Guan Yu didn't ditch Liu Bei in the off-season to go fight for Cao Cao.

Actually, he, um, did.

Not so much the 'ditch Liu Bei' part as the 'fight for Cao Cao' part.

Oh, yeah, and then he found out Liu Bei was alive and cut his way through five gates to leave Cao Cao.

 

[cvxfreak]

This thread ignores Japan, so I'll bring it in. Madden will click with the average American moreso than DW; opposite for Japan.

 

[Gigglepoo]

"Are you retarded?"

Same old animations + same old spotty AI = same old gameplay.

I honestly don't understand how people who are both hardcore gamers and hardcore football fans play that game. Boggles my mind.

To the original poster, it seems like sequels general stay in line with the score of the original. It's just the way the industry works. It's rare when you see one game in the franchise get a 90 and another get a 70. Since innovation isn't usually a huge part of any reviewers score, it makes sense that a similar gameplay experience will receive a similar score.

 

[pancakesandsex]

Because last time I checked Guan Yu didn't ditch Liu Bei in the off-season to go fight for Cao Cao.

Funny you should mention that example, since.....well that kinda does happen.....

And Dynasty Warriors doesn't deserve above an 80% rating until they can get rid of all that damn fog.

The fog is only in 2-player, the draw distance is pretty awesome in DW5 and SW2

 

[Rorschach]

I'm not retarded, but I've never really played Madden and I've only watched 1 footbowl game in my life.

IAWTP

 

[daegan]

Maybe it has to do with the fact that - in the case of DW - the real new features are sold in two additional games for $29 and $39.

(Yes, yes, NFL Head Coach. I hear you. Except that's not something that, well, ANYONE wants in Madden.)

 

[PhoenixDark]

"Are you retarded?"

:lol

 

[Gigglepoo]

IAWTP

What the hell?

You can check my GamerTag (same as my GAF name) if you like. I also watch every NFL game every Sunday. Is it really that hard to believe that a discrerning gamer would notice the animations and AI have not improved in years? Is it really that hard to believe a diehard football fan would be angry that swing passes to the running back still see the player run directly out of bounds? The game does not resemble real NFL football so it frustrates me.

 

[WasabiKing]

ok, I play both franchises, and both are guilty.

You can say it's just roster updates, but it's clear you don't play. With every version there's something new, something fixed, and something broken. Those are the facts. Poor X360 users keep crying, but the PS2 folks have been done right, and I assume the same is for XBox owners.

Dynasty Warriors 4 & 5 released the main game AND TWO expansion packs. How is that any different than Madden, if you are the one who says that every year it's an add on. Isn't the Dynasty Warriors series just adding new characters to the rosters, extra weapons, and fancy rare items?

But it's not like I care that much, I enjoy both games. So keep playing your flavor of the week, I'll go back to dropping 30 on your favorite team and slay 1000 warriors.

 

[PhoenixDark]

ok, I play both franchises, and both are guilty.

You can say it's just roster updates, but it's clear you don't play. With every version there's something new, something fixed, and something broken. Those are the facts. Poor X360 users keep crying, but the PS2 folks have been done right, and I assume the same is for XBox owners.

Dynasty Warriors 4 & 5 released the main game AND TWO expansion packs. How is that any different than Madden, if you are the one who says that every year it's an add on. Isn't the Dynasty Warriors series just adding new characters to the rosters, extra weapons, and fancy rare items?

But it's not like I care that much, I enjoy both games. So keep playing your flavor of the week, I'll go back to dropping 30 on your favorite team and slay 1000 warriors.

Some would say that many of the yearly (miniscule) changes from each Madden version could be done through patches. What's your position on that?

I don't agree with that statement, but it's just something that's brought up in these discussions.

 

[Rorschach]

What the hell?

You can check my GamerTag (same as my GAF name) if you like. I also watch every NFL game every Sunday. Is it really that hard to believe that a discrerning gamer would notice the animations and AI have not improved in years? Is it really that hard to believe a diehard football fan would be angry that swing passes to the running back still see the player run directly out of bounds? The game does not resemble real NFL football so it frustrates me.

The reason the game got mediocre reviews this year was because it actually was not a big step up from last year, but every year before that it has been a big improvement over the former. I don't know what you're doing with your swing passes, but if you wait too long and catch a player in momentum, yes he's going to go out of bounds...duh? And there were AI improvements (especially in the blocking aspect). If you dont' see them, then I don't know what to say.

If you do not see the difference between 1997 madden and Madden 06, then you're blind.

 

[pancakesandsex]

Same old animations + same old spotty AI = same old gameplay.

the AI is crap yeah, but would the game be any fun if it was better? Only the generals need to be smart(er).

I've been on a DW 5 kick lately, and i recently picked up Samurai warriors 2 (and was reading / posting in the thread on it) which was what sparked this post.

the AI in both games only turns on for the guys immediately surrounding you anyways, everything off screen is stat based / scripted, but when you are surrounded by 50 soldiers, having them all be smart would probably not be particularly fun to play, and would require almost completely different game mechanics.

Once you get into the nuances of it you can have fun playing with it, making sure certain events go off/ dont go off to stack stages in the enemy's favor then clear a stage solo after you get all of your allied officers killed aside from the commander.

It's also interesting to see how much of the game is on autopilot, and whether or not you make a difference, or just speed up the process by waiting it out to see if your army just wins. You can beat Chi Bi on normal by destroying one bridge, going next to sun quan and waiting until cao cao is the only one left. It's pretty interesting.

 

[Gigglepoo]

I don't know what you're doing with your swing passes, but if you wait too long and catch a player in momentum, yes he's going to go out of bounds...duh?

See, this is the kind of complaint I'm talking about. When a receiver drifts into the flat, they do not sprint to the sideline. Unless a defender is charging in, you will never see a RB in the NFL catch a swing pass and run out of bounds. Never. This is not a go route. There is no momentum after the catch. This is not a route that is run. There is no way a RBs momentum should carry him outside.

Watch the NFL this weekend and pay special attention to swing passes. Tell me how many times a RB steps out of bounds.

This is obviously just one small example, and something that wouldn't frustrate most people, but the game is full of problems like this. As sports games become more realistic they become less fun. By trying to emulate the real game and failing it becomes a chore to play it. Whereas older sports titles could survive because they were just games. Now I play these games expecting to be able to use real life techniques and am continually let down.

To the poster above me, the "same old animations" comment was about Madden, not DW.

EDIT - Anyway, I'm not going to debate the merits of Madden. Some people can live with the problems and that's fine. I can't get over Madden's unrealistic quirks.

 

[WrathOfOtaibah]

I'd be willing to bet money that most reviewers of the DW/SW games don't even do more with the game other than play a couple of practice levels. Then they write up a review. I know this because a lot of times, these guys get the game modes and execution all wrong. Either they were playing the wrong game by accident or they barely played it at all. I've noticed these inconsistencies since the Dynasty Warriors 4 reviews. They haven't improved since.

With Madden, I bet the reviewers play it more. Lets not forget the peer pressure/standard to keep up. No gamer is going to think <site> is the "shiznit" when the new Madden gets a 7.0.

In the end, **** the reviewers and worry about having fun. DW/SW offers fun, a lot of it. You are doing yourself a disservice by avoiding these games because of a few asshats who have barely touched the game.

 

[pancakesandsex]

ok, I play both franchises, and both are guilty.

You can say it's just roster updates, but it's clear you don't play. With every version there's something new, something fixed, and something broken. Those are the facts. Poor X360 users keep crying, but the PS2 folks have been done right, and I assume the same is for XBox owners.

Dynasty Warriors 4 & 5 released the main game AND TWO expansion packs. How is that any different than Madden, if you are the one who says that every year it's an add on. Isn't the Dynasty Warriors series just adding new characters to the rosters, extra weapons, and fancy rare items?

But it's not like I care that much, I enjoy both games. So keep playing your flavor of the week, I'll go back to dropping 30 on your favorite team and slay 1000 warriors.

I'm not actually comparing the two in a "which is better" fashion, and madden can be substituted for NHL, etc, or DW for the latest KOF, or some other frequently updated franchise

DW XL is an expansion, Empires isnt so much an expansion as it is a strategy game, featuring the current DW engine for combat its more standalone.

 

[pancakesandsex]

As sports games become more realistic they become less fun. By trying to emulate the real game and failing it becomes a chore to play it..

I'd say this holds true for just about any game, in any genre. I mean, if you wanted the game to be that realistic, why don't you just..y'know, go outside and play football. (Or slaughter 1,000 chinese dudes and their powerful generals )

 

[Gigglepoo]

I'd say this holds true for just about any game, in any genre. I mean, if you wanted the game to be that realistic, why don't you just..y'know, go outside and play football. (Or slaughter 1,000 chinese dudes and their powerful generals )

Yup, definetely. I don't like when games try to be realistic but aren't really. Call of Duty 2 was frustrating because it wasn't anything like WWII at all. Not even a little bit. Seems like developers should either develop a realistic title and stick to it or a fantasy ones. This in-between games are making me go crazy.

 

[Ninja Scooter]

People can keep playing Madden. Online. In leagues/tourneys. Or just in a group of friends. You can put a shitload of hours into madden and still enjoy it. It has a very good amount of replay value for a game that comes out every year. With Dynasty Warriors (and dont' get me wrong i actually like the series and have bought the last 3) you pretty much do the same thing and it can get old after a while. Even with the different modes, ultimately you are just sitting by yourself slashing the shit out of 1000 enemies at a time. DW is way more repetitive than Madden.

 

[thetrin]

I think sports games are assumed to have yearly updates. It`S a part of the franchise. Apparently constant updates in an action game isn`t accepted yet. I don`t know. I don`t think sports games need yearly updates, nor does any other game.

 

[FrenchMovieTheme]

Same old animations + same old spotty AI = same old gameplay.

I honestly don't understand how people who are both hardcore gamers and hardcore football fans play that game. Boggles my mind.

To the original poster, it seems like sequels general stay in line with the score of the original. It's just the way the industry works. It's rare when you see one game in the franchise get a 90 and another get a 70. Since innovation isn't usually a huge part of any reviewers score, it makes sense that a similar gameplay experience will receive a similar score.

same old animations?? as madden '97!? hope i'm not misquoting you there

and why don't you understand that hardcore football fans would want to play a detailed simulation of NFL football? or are you just saying that to be a smart ass?


with all that said i like both madden and dynasty warriors, but madden is superior. cao pi!

 

[pancakesandsex]

People can keep playing Madden. Online. In leagues/tourneys. Or just in a group of friends. You can put a shitload of hours into madden and still enjoy it. It has a very good amount of replay value for a game that comes out every year. With Dynasty Warriors (and dont' get me wrong i actually like the series and have bought the last 3) you pretty much do the same thing and it can get old after a while. Even with the different modes, ultimately you are just sitting by yourself slashing the shit out of 1000 enemies at a time. DW is way more repetitive than Madden.

DW online is coming
-Believe-

 

[CB3]

Is it really that hard to believe a diehard football fan would be angry that swing passes to the running back still see the player run directly out of bounds?

How about holding the opposite direction when you do a swing pass so you dont lead your RB out of Bounds. Its really not that hard

 

[Gigglepoo]

same old animations?? as madden '97!? hope i'm not misquoting you there

and why don't you understand that hardcore football fans would want to play a detailed simulation of NFL football? or are you just saying that to be a smart ass?

Two quick things: Madden '97 was an obvious exaggeration. It was the first 3D Madden game. I know they don't use the same animations. At least I hope not.

Second: I am a diehard football fan. That's what I do. Madden does not offer a realistic football experience. Have you not been following this thread? As a diehard NFL fan, the AI quirks just annoy the hell out of me. As a hardcore gamer all the other stuff (bad presentation, quirky animations, piss poor collision detection) get to me. Basically, Madden can't win. It either has to be a legitimately good game or I'm just going to move on to something else.

To the above poster - I understand there are ways around some of the flaws. I can also play as every DB if I want decent pass coverage. My point is, the game has bad AI. If the computer doesn't understand that running out of bounds is bad, that means the game has bad AI.

And with that, I'm done talking about Madden. Hopefully forever.

 

[CB3]

It either has to be a legitimately good game or I'm just going to move on to something else.

What would that be? NFL2K7?

Oh Wait....

And BTW, if you are not playing on All-Madden, do so

 

[Speevy]

Maybe the reviewers feel like sports games, while not groundbreaking necessarily (though they are given lower scores for having off years), are fun and have a formula that works.

On the other hand, reviewers may feel that the formula for Dynasty Warriors never worked in the first place. It was just original and exciting for new hardware. And now that it's gotten older...well, you get what I'm saying.

 

[FrenchMovieTheme]

Two quick things: Madden '97 was an obvious exaggeration. It was the first 3D Madden game. I know they don't use the same animations. At least I hope not.

no it wasn't. madden '99 was the first 3D madden

Second: I am a diehard football fan. That's what I do. Madden does not offer a realistic football experience. Have you not been following this thread? As a diehard NFL fan, the AI quirks just annoy the hell out of me. As a hardcore gamer all the other stuff (bad presentation, quirky animations, piss poor collision detection) get to me. Basically, Madden can't win. It either has to be a legitimately good game or I'm just going to move on to something else.

it doesn't? what about the AI exactly quirks you? can you cite specific examples? while I would say the AI is questionable in spots, it is certainly not god awful. AI maybe quirky, so are players in the NFL. bad presentation (no argument), quirky animation (eh... in spots, check out madden 08 for ps3/360 and a new physics engine, to this point technology has not allowed for some type of free flowing graphics engine you seem to be looking for).

To the above poster - I understand there are ways around some of the flaws. I can also play as every DB if I want decent pass coverage. My point is, the game has bad AI. If the computer doesn't understand that running out of bounds is bad, that means the game has bad AI.

what is horrible about the DB AI? are you getting burned out deep bombs? playing short zones? man D 1 on 1? again, the AI has its problems in spots as every VIDEO GAME does, but overall i feel madden (even for the 360) has pretty decent AI overall.

And with that, I'm done talking about Madden. Hopefully forever.

hopefully

 

[Gigglepoo]

What would that be? NFL2K7?

I have a feeling even a new NFL2K couldn't satisfy me. I did love NFL2K and NFL2k1, but could not stand 2K2, 2K3 and 2K4. I may have broken 2K3 in half at one point. NFL2K5 was brilliant, but I assume that was a fluke. That series just had so many money plays, usually of the sweep right variety, that playing two-player was frustrating at best.

Edit - One more Madden comment... Madden '99 was the first 3D? Are you sure? I remember Madden '96 was cancelled because it looked like ass next to the 3D competition. There is no way EA waited that long to take Madden into the 3rd dimension, is there?

 

[Aaron]

Maybe the reviewers feel like sports games, while not groundbreaking necessarily (though they are given lower scores for having off years), are fun and have a formula that works.

On the other hand, reviewers may feel that the formula for Dynasty Warriors never worked in the first place. It was just original and exciting for new hardware. And now that it's gotten older...well, you get what I'm saying.

No, it's more like the sites have at least one Madden fan on staff who reviews the latest game, while there isn't anyone who's a DW fan, so it gets assigned to the person who 'takes the bullet.' The attitude is a factor.

 

[AstroLad]

I haven't been paying particularly close attention, but it seems that in the past couple years, sports updates and sequels in general have seen declining scores, as it probably should be in most cases. Sports games are obviously a bit more conducive to yearly updates than other kinds of games, but the reviews used to be ridiculous. They seemed to follow the logic that, if last year's game was a 9.0, and this year's game has a new move and updated rosters, it must be a 9.5. For a while there, it seemed like they'd have to break the ceiling on the 10-point scale to stay true to that approach.

In my casual observation, I don't see that as much anymore and developers are being taken to task for minimal upgrades more so than before. Hopefully the trend continues, as even the best sports games have a long way to go and it's easy to see how developers can afford to be really lazy. Most people think Madden when this complaint comes up, but even Konami has been lazy the past couple of years with my favorite sports game, Winning Eleven.

 

[Ninja Scooter]

No, it's more like the sites have at least one Madden fan on staff who reviews the latest game, while there isn't anyone who's a DW fan, so it gets assigned to the person who 'takes the bullet.' The attitude is a factor.

uh, thats kinda the same thing. Is it a sites problem that they can't find a person who likes DW? Or should they go out of their way to find some hardcore Dynasty fan to review each game? Most of the DW games get fine reviews for what they are (6-7 range).

 

[FrenchMovieTheme]

I have a feeling even a new NFL2K couldn't satisfy me. I did love NFL2K and NFL2k1, but could not stand 2K2, 2K3 and 2K4. I may have broken 2K3 in half at one point. NFL2K5 was brilliant, but I assume that was a fluke. That series just had so many money plays, usually of the sweep right variety, that playing two-player was frustrating at best.

hold on. you don't like madden because the AI sucks, but NFL 2k5 was brilliant? wow, ok. not even going to get into that but that bombshell is a bit discrediting. oh well, an opinion is an opinion.

Edit - One more Madden comment... Madden '99 was the first 3D? Are you sure? I remember Madden '96 was cancelled because it looked like ass next to the 3D competition. There is no way EA waited that long to take Madden into the 3rd dimension, is there?

yes i am sure. look it up if you don't believe me (although wtf does it matter anyways)

and there was no 3D competition in 1995 (madden '96) or 1996. 1997 was the first 3D football game on consoles (gameday '98), and then madden brought out their 3D version after being outsold by gameday '98

 

[linsivvi]

DW online is coming
-Believe-

The PC version is already in beta testing in Japan.

 

[Ristamar]

no it wasn't. madden '99 was the first 3D madden

That can't be right. I remember playing Madden 64 (which was polygonal/3D) in November of '97.

 

[jooey]

DW is truly incrementally updated. Madden usually has a lot more going for it.

 

[beelzebozo]

the more realistic football games have become, the less i have cared. i'm with gigglepoo in that i adored nfl 2k and 2k1 (on dreamcast, no less! those were the days, friends), but then i just dropped off the football gaming planet due to the simulation frenzy. the games got too technical for me.

as a side note, has anyone tried out blitz: the league? think a casual, arcade-lovin' football fan would dig it?

 

[Ninja Scooter]

That can't be right. I remember playing Madden 64 (which was polygonal/3D) in November of '97.

the PSX madden was still 2D that year. It wasn't until the next year that they switched to full 3D.

 

[Ristamar]

Ok, so the first 3D PSX Madden was Madden '99...

 

[Aaron]

uh, thats kinda the same thing. Is it a sites problem that they can't find a person who likes DW? Or should they go out of their way to find some hardcore Dynasty fan to review each game? Most of the DW games get fine reviews for what they are (6-7 range).

Nah, I was speaking more of the reverse where Madden gets less objectively rated because it's handed to a fan. Honestly, I'm a DW fan, but 6-7 is about right, especially for a non-effort like DW5 or 5XL.

 

[Ninja Scooter]

Ok, so the first 3D PSX Madden was Madden '99...

no, '98. The very FIRST 3D Madden was Madden 64 which didn't have the NFL license and came out in '96 during the N64 launch. Im pretty sure the next year (Fall of '97, which would mean Madden '98) EA went full 3D for the PSone as well.

Nah, I was speaking more of the reverse where Madden gets less objectively rated because it's handed to a fan. Honestly, I'm a DW fan, but 6-7 is about right, especially for a non-effort like DW5 or 5XL.

Madden isn't the only one that gets that treatment. You think EGM or GI is going to hand a Halo 3 review to a guy that doesn't like FPS? Or Final Fantasy 12 to someone who hates RPGs? it doesn't happen.

 

[etiolate]

If someone had the balls to say "Okay EA, its time you reinvented the game" then they would be lynched. A reviewer can get away with it for Dynasty Warriors or Mario Party.

The interesting thing is, how will they reconcile praise for change in Madden Wii if the game gets good reviews? If it gets good reviews, it will be based on the change in controls. If those don't work, it will get lambasted even if everything else is up to par. So will we get the double standard turned into a tripple standard?

You don't have to reinvent Madden!
You have to reinvent Dynasty Warriors!
Thank god they reinvented Madden Wii!

That would be some good comedy.

 

[Ninja Scooter]

because Madden doesn't need to be reinvented. The biggest misconception with people (especially elitists around places like GAF) are that people that buy Madden games only do so because of fancy commercials or because Madden is on TV and EA tells them to. People who are into Madden are actually really into the game. They recognize the changes EA makes on a yearly basis even if you're too ignorant to.

 

[sprsk]

Because last time I checked Guan Yu didn't ditch Liu Bei in the off-season to go fight for Cao Cao.

Hey hey hey, he may not have "ditched" liu bei, but the rest did actually happen.