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[Joe Molotov]

Football is what it is. There's only so much they can change Madden, because it still has to fit within the confines of American Football. The Dynasty Warriors franchise is not similarly restrained, and as others have pointed it, it was never very highly regarded (at least in the US) to begin with.

 

[WasabiKing]

pancakes, I'm not accusing you of nothing, just beating people to the punch.

If you honestly cannot tell that the animations have changed between '06 and '07, you should really stop playing video games all together. it's as simple as pressing L1 then R1. Tackles have changed significantly.

Now, once DW goes online, then everyone will be its bitch.

 

[BigBoss]

How would EA go about re-inventing Madden? Its a simulation of professional football, its not like they can change the rules of the game or anything crazy like that.

 

[Ristamar]

no, '98. The very FIRST 3D Madden was Madden 64 which didn't have the NFL license and came out in '96 during the N64 launch. Im pretty sure the next year (Fall of '97, which would mean Madden '98) EA went full 3D for the PSone as well.

Madden 64 came out in '97, so it would have been Madden '98 if not for the "64" moniker. Unless the PSX version was also 3D that year, it was '99, like FMT had sort of originally stated.

 

[AstroLad]

I don't think it's really about wholesale reinvention every year. I know Winning Eleven doesn't need it, and I'll take the word of the millions of Madden fans that Madden doesn't either. Rather, it's about the fact that if you don't need wholesale reinvention, you have the resources to devote elsewhere much more so than any other game or game series. Why not improve the animations, audio, graphics, etc. even more? Graphics aren't a huge deal, but something that drove me nuts about many of the sports updates was that even though no major changes were made to the gameplay, I was still playing with the same character models from three years ago. With Winning Eleven, the problem was always with the menus and presentation, which have been uniformly awful throughout the series. You don't have to start from scratch because you have a great gameplay engine, but you can't be arsed to spend a little time to improve a clearly deficient area?

It's not that either WE or Madden are anything short of great games, but it's insulting to me as a consumer more than anything and almost completely inexplicable.

 

[C4Lukins]

Why do yearly updates of sports games consistently get high scores and rave reviews, year after year, yet incrementaly updated games like Dynasty Warriors/Samurai Warriors get panned more and more with each sequel? What gives? Aren't both franchises basically doing the same thing?

There are other games that would fit the model im presenting, but i cant think of any good examples at the moment, so i'm going with this.


Discuss

If you have noticed, Madden it seems has been taking a hit on its review scores as of late. Beyond that, there have been 9 out of 10 Madden games in the past, and there has never been a great Dynasty Warriors or Samurai Warriors game. Sure those series are decent, but has there ever been a version that went from good to great? I cannot speak for SW, but I have played a couple of DW games, and while they are a lot of fun, they were never great. Madden has had great years, and typically gets panned when it has an off year.

Edit: Not that Gamerankings is a great indicator, but here are the numbers for Madden on XBOX.

02-87.7
03-89.9
04-88.5
05-89.5
06-83.7
07-82.1

Now lets looks at Dynasty Warriors on PS2

DW2-70.9
DW3-77.0
DW4-78.0
DW5-70.5

That pretty much disproves it there. Both series had an increase in review scores during their heyday on their respective systems, and were punished for not getting much better in their later years.

 

[Pureauthor]

Now, once DW goes online, then everyone will be its bitch.

How would DW online work, exactly? I don't want others eating into my killcount.

 

[Miguel]

POW

*goes to sleep and replies for real in the morning*

Edit: Actually, instead, I'll just get to work on finishing this up before Wasabi strangles me :lol

I'll finish! Promise!

 

[Ristamar]

How would EA go about re-inventing Madden? Its a simulation of professional football, its not like they can change the rules of the game or anything crazy like that.

Theoretically, there are things they could do. They could lengthen the dev cycle, releasing a cheap expansion/download for rosters and rule changes on the off years a "full fledged" version doesn't hit shelves. If they're so hurried with correcting the small issues that arise each year (creating new ones in the process) while making minor improvements to the engine and presentation, it's easier to be stymied by poor decisions and harder overall to make significant leaps in progress. The same core concepts apply to all software devlopment.

Of course, they probably wouldn't see as much of a profit, either. Good for the consumer, overall. Not so good for EA.

 

[FrenchMovieTheme]

madden '99 was the first psx 3D madden. i bet the 49ers season on it!

 

[Ninja Scooter]

madden '99 was the first psx 3D madden. i bet the 49ers season on it!

you are correct now that i think about it. I forgot that Madden 64 didn't come out until the fall AFTER N64 launch in '97, along with QB Club and its fancy schmancy hi-res graphics. I had to think about it and go "No, there's no way Madden could have come out at launch for N64, otherwise i wouldn't have been desperate enough to play Mario 64 100X over and buy Cruisin USA". Man you forget just how bare that launch was.

 

[linsivvi]

How would DW online work, exactly? I don't want others eating into my killcount.

This is from the early impressions of the beta version that I've read. I have never tried the demo so I this is pretty much all the information I have.

You create your own player, then choose a campaign and a side available to that campaign. Looks like you are stuck with this choice unless you give up your rank and items. From this point on, you can choose either major battle, free battle or NPC missions. Free battle supports up to 4 vs 4 players. Nothing much was talked about the mission mode. Major battle can only be played 3 times a month and their results have an actual impact on your country. If your country does poorly, it will grow smaller until it becomes destroyed. When that happens, you can either choose to switch sides or start a new campaign, and of course losing your rank and items. During the actual game, your side wins by capturing all check points. If time expired, then the side with the highest total kill count will win.

Let's hope it does well enough that they'll release an English version of it.

 

[thetrin]

This is from the early impressions of the beta version that I've read. I have never tried the demo so I this is pretty much all the information I have.

You create your own player, then choose a campaign and a side available to that campaign. Looks like you are stuck with this choice unless you give up your rank and items. From this point on, you can choose either major battle, free battle or NPC missions. Free battle supports up to 4 vs 4 players. Nothing much was talked about the mission mode. Major battle can only be played 3 times a month and their results have an actual impact on your country. If your country does poorly, it will grow smaller until it becomes destroyed. When that happens, you can either choose to switch sides or start a new campaign, and of course losing your rank and items. During the actual game, your side wins by capturing all check points. If time expired, then the side with the highest total kill count will win.

Let's hope it does well enough that they'll release an English version of it.

That sounds rather sexcellent. Now if only they took that system, and put it in Sengoku Basara 3 instead.

 

[Blackace]

Just to the OP. I don't see how ths is a double standard at all. Every year sports change. We get new stars, new trends, new unis, and even new teams. While the 3 kingdoms story is still the same. While I agree sports does get a little more slack in that area from the media... these companies get noooo slack from the digital athlete.

Sports changes, people follow the changes therefore games are made to reflect those changes...

 

[Chris Remo]

Because last time I checked Guan Yu didn't ditch Liu Bei in the off-season to go fight for Cao Cao.

:lol I don't know anything about Dynasty Warriors but this is an amazing post.

 

[Aaron]

:lol I don't know anything about Dynasty Warriors but this is an amazing post.

Everyone should read the portion of Three Kingdoms where Guan Yu is captured and works for Cao Cao for a while. It's amazing stuff and probably the best part of the novel, especially when Guan Yu leaves and slaughters every general who tries to oppose him. Sadly, no DW has been on the same level of quality yet.

 

[SiegfriedFM]

How would Koei go about re-inventing Dynasty Warriors? Its a simulation of historical events, its not like they can change the story of the game or anything crazy like that.

Fixed.

 

[Enron]

For one thing, in Madden you do more than just push "x"

 

[linsivvi]

How would Koei go about re-inventing Dynasty Warriors? Its a simulation of historical events, its not like they can change the story of the game or anything crazy like that.

It certainly hasn't stopped Koei from making up history with these very same characters in Kessen 2. Not to mention the whole Dynasty Warrior series is just based on a fiction which is loosely based on historical events.

 

[jarrod]

The double standard also hurts Mario Party, MegaMan Zero and (especially) MegaMan Battle Network I've noticed. It used to really dig into 2D fighters from Capcom and SNK, though now their audiences are so dedicated, they tend to pass under the mainstream radar.

 

[Gigglepoo]

hold on. you don't like madden because the AI sucks, but NFL 2k5 was brilliant? wow, ok. not even going to get into that but that bombshell is a bit discrediting. oh well, an opinion is an opinion.

Like I said, if a new NFL2K came out I'm sure I wouldn't like it. The AI in all these football games are quite poor. That combined with bad collision detection are real killers for me. Just like I'd rather watch the real thing than a movie interpretation, I'm going to stay away from the games too.

NFL2K5 was the first game that I had this amazing online community to play with. It also had amazing off the field stuff. I loved building a dynasty and letting them plow through the season without my help. I could look past the sometimes iffy gameplay (though still better than current Madden) because it was a new experience. But I can't put up with that crap anymore. Standards go up and the games stay essentially the same. Too many great games out there to stick with games that haven't seen improvement in a few years.

Anyone wondering why a guy who doesn't like video football is posting about Madden, NFL2K and Blitz? Well, I'm a hardcore gamer and a ridiculously diehard NFL fan. Plus, I used to like video football. I honestly just do not understand anymore how hardcore gamers who love sports play these games. It boggles my mind. I understand people who are just NFL fans liking Madden, since they don't know how far games have come. I understand people who just love games loving Madden, since they don't know football that well. But if you know both, how do you put up with it?

To the guy who was asking about the new Blitz games: it's horrible. At least last year's was. The old Blitz games were pretty sweet, but now it's just broken. There's this slow motion thing that makes the game unplayable. Way too easy. Maybe they'll fix it this year.

 

[Andokuky]

I like both franchises. But there is no double standard. Dynasty Warriors has just never been "great". If DW2 on PS2 had been a great game in the high 80's or so, the review numbers for them and each Madden would be pretty identical. Both franchises saw better reviews then taped off, Madden just started on a higher number because it was a better game.

 

[Meier]

..

Every time I adblock The Experiment's avatar because it's so annoying, and yet it keeps coming back... QUIT SWITCHING URLS! :|

 

[MoxManiac]

Considering that there was a mammoth leap between DW4 and DW5, and SW1 and SW2 (though not everything changed in SW2 was for the better), people harping on the DW/SW series are full of shit.

 

[Comic]

Considering that there was a mammoth leap between DW4 and DW5, and SW1 and SW2 (though not everything changed in SW2 was for the better), people harping on the DW/SW series are full of shit.

I agree, I went from DW3 to DW5 and was amazed at how much more fleshed out the game was. I really can't go back to DW3 because 5 is a huge improvement to me.

And to the poster that said you just press 'x' you obviously haven't played a Dynasty Warriors game very well.

 

[Pudding Tame]

How would EA go about re-inventing Madden? Its a simulation of professional football, its not like they can change the rules of the game or anything crazy like that.

They could if they ever add the changes I've been asking for in Owners mode, using how profitable your franchise is as points to used in the off-season during the rules change committee. Where you'd be able to change things getting rid of Instant Replay, how many downs or yards teams have before turning the ball over, bringing the goal posts back into endzone, and if they can scale it right the size of the field, etc.

 

[pancakesandsex]

pancakes, I'm not accusing you of nothing, just beating people to the punch.

If you honestly cannot tell that the animations have changed between '06 and '07, you should really stop playing video games all together. it's as simple as pressing L1 then R1. Tackles have changed significantly.

Now, once DW goes online, then everyone will be its bitch.

I wasnt the one who said that, and i thought he was talking about DW, which he wasnt.

 

[Brofist]

Sports games are made with yearly versions in mind. People want to play them for the changes, new rosters, new modes. DW games have no business getting yearly sequels, and the game might have a chance at getting good reviews again if they improve the line of fog from 5 feet of distance.

 

[JoshuaJSlone]

Dynasty Warriors 4 & 5 released the main game AND TWO expansion packs. How is that any different than Madden, if you are the one who says that every year it's an add on. Isn't the Dynasty Warriors series just adding new characters to the rosters, extra weapons, and fancy rare items?

I've not played the later games in the series, but going from DW2 to DW3, I was surprised at how even stages that were supposed to be covering the same events had completely different stage layouts. Clearly not something a Madden game can be expected to do, of course.

 

[MoxManiac]

Sports games are made with yearly versions in mind. People want to play them for the changes, new rosters, new modes. DW games have no business getting yearly sequels, and the game might have a chance at getting good reviews again if they improve the line of fog from 5 feet of distance.

I wish people would stop saying this.

PLAY DW5. THE FOG IS GONE

 

[anachronous_one]

Just to the OP. I don't see how ths is a double standard at all. Every year sports change. We get new stars, new trends, new unis, and even new teams. While the 3 kingdoms story is still the same. While I agree sports does get a little more slack in that area from the media... these companies get noooo slack from the digital athlete.

Sports changes, people follow the changes therefore games are made to reflect those changes...

Fair enough, but the items you just mentioned as being dynamic aspects of a sport (stars, trends, unis, even teams) are not worthy of a new full-priced retail product every single year. Those are all things that, if a game was built intelligently with modular expansion in mind from the outset, could be provided via "booster pack" updates released during the "off year" of a 2 to 2.5 year development cycle. Boosters would cover everything that you just mentioned --- new uniforms, new rules, FA/draft/roster changes, player portraits --- all for ~$20. But again, something like this would require some planning and forethought, designing the game to have "hooks" for modular content to be added and removed as necessary.

The benefit of this would be, as noted by others, a longer development cycle for the team working on the next full retail iteration of the game. Meanwhile, the consumer benefits by not annually purchasing a $50-$60 marginal upgrade --- they can purchase the ~$20 booster in the "off year" and be treated to (hopefully) a truly upgraded gameplay experience every 2 years with the new retail release. This would mean that a platform would still see 2 to 4 full retail releases of the series over the course of the system's lifespan.

 

[Pureauthor]

Everyone in this thread:

Drop your arguing and just go read Romance of the Three Kingdoms. Now.

 

[Blackace]

Fair enough, but the items you just mentioned as being dynamic aspects of a sport (stars, trends, unis, even teams) are not worthy of a new full-priced retail product every single year. Those are all things that, if a game was built intelligently with modular expansion in mind from the outset, could be provided via "booster pack" updates released during the "off year" of a 2 to 2.5 year development cycle. Boosters would cover everything that you just mentioned --- new uniforms, new rules, FA/draft/roster changes, player portraits --- all for ~$20. But again, something like this would require some planning and forethought, designing the game to have "hooks" for modular content to be added and removed as necessary.

The benefit of this would be, as noted by others, a longer development cycle for the team working on the next full retail iteration of the game. Meanwhile, the consumer benefits by not annually purchasing a $50-$60 marginal upgrade --- they can purchase the ~$20 booster in the "off year" and be treated to (hopefully) a truly upgraded gameplay experience every 2 years with the new retail release. This would mean that a platform would still see 2 to 4 full retail releases of the series over the course of the system's lifespan.

wait wait wait...I just answered the question about why it is ok for sports games to come out yearly but catch no crap about beating a dead horse... and that is because the game does indeed change yearly...

I am not saying it is the best way for consumers... just answered the question stated...

 

[pancakesandsex]

Just to the OP. I don't see how ths is a double standard at all. Every year sports change. We get new stars, new trends, new unis, and even new teams. While the 3 kingdoms story is still the same. While I agree sports does get a little more slack in that area from the media... these companies get noooo slack from the digital athlete.

Sports changes, people follow the changes therefore games are made to reflect those changes...

Ok, the story is the same, but the "fields/stadiums"(levels) are revamped/completely redone, there are new "players"(characters) added with new "uniforms"(models), and new combo / weapon systems in place and bodyguard systems.

you cant change the core of the game, otherwise they'd be playing football on ice skates in madden 08 "just to mix it up a little" (would be funny as a bonus mode)

DW will always be about the 3 kingdoms, always feature beatemup gameplay with thousands of troops, you cant really change that just like you cant change the rules of football. It wouldnt be DW otherwise.

Having played quite a bit of DW 4, i must say the leap in gameplay from 4-5 is phenomenal. It plays completely different, and strives to give each character their own levels and story. Levels repeat, but its not the same set of levels for every guy like 4. They are fairly similar between members of the same faction though. Everyone has their own voiced story segments, with variations on mission briefings depending on the character selected, and there are a ton of events to trigger in battle, some following the book, some doing the opposite.

I have not played empires, but i have played XL, and i will comment that its worth the extra money if you want to play the extra modes. It's got a completely different way to play the game, items are expendable etc, and it also has the create a character mode if you want to make a custom sub general. The extra levels featuring the main cast are just a bonus.

SW2 is just radically different from DW in play style, as the level up system works VERY differently, and there are no items. Skills are awesome, and a great way to make maxing out characters more interesting. Survival mode is great, although the environment for it is a bit bland, having different goals every floor, having items / xp gain transfer over to the main game makes it worthwhile for practice and training new guys, as well as maxing out characters if you are sick of free mode.

Waiting for DW5 empires to drop so i can check it out, if its cool i wont be able to wait for SW2 empires

 

[Razoric]

I think one simple answer would be... sports games, when done right, have a very long lasting appeal. (Football, Soccer, Racing, etc) They are based on rulesets that have been tweaked and honed for years to allow for a competitive experience.

There will always be a consumer base for people wanting to play a game of football against each other. That market is not going away for a long, long time, if ever.

Games like Dynasty Warriors, Splinter Cell, Tomb Raider, etc don't have that same kind of appeal to withstand yearly updates.

all IMO ;p

 

[pancakesandsex]

Just a note:
I wasnt attacking madden directly, or assuming DW is the only game that gets panned opposite, it was just a good example.

I could have said NHL vs Mario party, or NBA Live vs Megaman

I just went with a recent sports game which got good reviews, and a series i had on my mind (specifically samurai warriors 2, getting panned for no good reason, but DW was a longer running better example)

If you havent played samurai warriors 2, GO DO SO, its awesome. Much more difficult, deeper gameplay, and completely different character progression than DW5

 

[anachronous_one]

wait wait wait...I just answered the question about why it is ok for sports games to come out yearly but catch no crap about beating a dead horse... and that is because the game does indeed change yearly...

I am not saying it is the best way for consumers... just answered the question stated...

Nod, I understand that, and I apologize if my lengthly rant came off as being "aggro" in any way.

My point is that any franchise --- be it sports like Madden/NBA 2K/Winning Eleven, or action like Megaman/Splinter Cell --- might be better served by longer development cycles for core retail releases, and then have those core releases supplemented by less expensive (in terms of production and retail cost) expansions/boosters during the longer development cycles in between retail releases.

To the OP, churning out the same rehashed shit annually with minor "improvements", "upgrades", and "tweaks" as fully-realized and full-priced retail product is NOT ok, regardless of what IP you're talking about. Why do some franchises get a free pass, while others don't? I think that reviewers feel pressure to not deviate too far outside an expected score range when reviewing an installment of an established franchise. Basically grading an installment on not only the merits of the current installment (unfortunately), but also taking into account the past performace of the series --- sort of grading based on a "body of work".

 

[WrathOfOtaibah]

Every time I adblock The Experiment's avatar because it's so annoying, and yet it keeps coming back... QUIT SWITCHING URLS! :|

I have yet to switch URLs for the avatar. I'm too lazy to really care about switching it up.

especially for a non-effort like DW5 or 5XL.

DW5 is a non-effort? Could have fooled me.

Now, once DW goes online, then everyone will be its bitch.

Unlikely. They will just play a couple games online and then write their shit reviews as usual. I have no faith that reviewers will snap out of their stupor and write a decent Dynasty Warriors/Samurai Warriors review.

If reviewers have been talking out of their asses about this series since 2003 and it has worked for them, why expect anything different here with DW Online?

 

[Speevy]

That crazy girl is switching the URL.

 

[pancakesandsex]

To the OP, churning out the same rehashed shit annually with minor "improvements", "upgrades", and "tweaks" as fully-realized and full-priced retail product is NOT ok, regardless of what IP you're talking about. Why do some franchises get a free pass, while others don't? I think that reviewers feel pressure to not deviate too far outside an expected score range when reviewing an installment of an established franchise. Basically grading an installment on not only the merits of the current installment (unfortunately), but also taking into account the past performace of the series --- sort of grading based on a "body of work".

Alright, what about this then:
What if i was say that DW/SW (specifically) is much more than just a "yearly update" (which i belive is pretty much true, having played the last 2 "updates" + spinoff) and that madden fits that mold a bit closer. I am NOT saying there is no difference between incarnations, that would be ignorant, but that the gameplay changes are minimal, versus DW/SW where the changes are far more drastic gameplay wise.

 

[Bluecondor]

On a side note....

Has anyone been following the "hardcore" madden fans reactions to the new control system that is promised for Madden Wii?

Every time I see a thread on this at Operation Sports or GameFAQs, it seems like most of the conversation is people lamenting the new control system and saying that it is going to ruin the game (along with countless comments about how the graphics in the Wii version seem to be current gen).

This astounds me because EA gets so much criticism for its failure/refusal to innovate. If you look at the control system they have put in place for Madden Wii though, EA is really going to be on the cutting edge with respect to implementing the Wii controller in Madden. They have made it so that different movements of the Wii controller and nunchuck will be used to exceute all of the commands/moves that have traditionally been done using controllers with joysticks and buttons.

To me, the real innovation is not just that they have implemented the Wii controller into the game, but, when you look at how you will use the controller, a lot of the motions you will make to control your players will mimic real football moves. For example, to throw a pass, you literally make a throwing motion with the controller. And, to catch a pass, you move your arms up like you would do if you were trying to catch an actual pass. Say what you want about EA, but this is real innovation, in that the control system in the game will mimic the types of moves you actually make when playing football.

It will be interesting to see how people perceive this upon its release. Will people give EA respect/recognition for the new control system, or will people fixate on the lack of a graphics upgrade, or that it is basically the same game across systems - minus the controller and a couple of extra Wii-specific modes (like 2-on-2)?

I say this also because I am currently playing the 360 version of EA's The Godfather, and I absolutely am blown away by the game. I never played the PS2/XBox versions, but I remember that they were widely-panned as being generic ripoffs of GTA and a shameless exploitation of the Godfather. EA did some really innovative things with this game in my opinion - particualrly with respect to how they weaved in-depth economic/business aspects of the game into the game's overall premise - fighting amongst five rival mob families. I feel like EA hasn't received much credit for a game that is really well done on the 360.

Bottom line - it is as if "Ea never innovates" is a self-fulfilling prophecy with people, even in the face of innovative games like Madden Wii and the Godfather.

 

[Miguel]

As for Madden Wii, CK and I both thought it was pretty awesome...for the 5 minutes we played. I'm not sure about him, but I don't know that it would hold up playing 3-4 hour sessions, although it'd be nice for a quick play every once in a while. More at 3 central time!

 

[Blackace]

Ok, the story is the same, but the "fields/stadiums"(levels) are revamped/completely redone, there are new "players"(characters) added with new "uniforms"(models), and new combo / weapon systems in place and bodyguard systems.

you cant change the core of the game, otherwise they'd be playing football on ice skates in madden 08 "just to mix it up a little" (would be funny as a bonus mode)

DW will always be about the 3 kingdoms, always feature beatemup gameplay with thousands of troops, you cant really change that just like you cant change the rules of football. It wouldnt be DW otherwise.

Having played quite a bit of DW 4, i must say the leap in gameplay from 4-5 is phenomenal. It plays completely different, and strives to give each character their own levels and story. Levels repeat, but its not the same set of levels for every guy like 4. They are fairly similar between members of the same faction though. Everyone has their own voiced story segments, with variations on mission briefings depending on the character selected, and there are a ton of events to trigger in battle, some following the book, some doing the opposite.

I have not played empires, but i have played XL, and i will comment that its worth the extra money if you want to play the extra modes. It's got a completely different way to play the game, items are expendable etc, and it also has the create a character mode if you want to make a custom sub general. The extra levels featuring the main cast are just a bonus.

SW2 is just radically different from DW in play style, as the level up system works VERY differently, and there are no items. Skills are awesome, and a great way to make maxing out characters more interesting. Survival mode is great, although the environment for it is a bit bland, having different goals every floor, having items / xp gain transfer over to the main game makes it worthwhile for practice and training new guys, as well as maxing out characters if you are sick of free mode.

Waiting for DW5 empires to drop so i can check it out, if its cool i wont be able to wait for SW2 empires

I just think they are two different beast. People are attached to sport teams pay money to see them live, go to draft parties, have friends over with beers to watch the game, become fantasy gms on the Internet/barbershops, and so on. People have invested time and money as they follow the sport in real life (not to mention emotions... Cub fans...) Therefore they want a game where their team had a breakout year to reflect in the videogame. You really can't compare the two... but if you had to, look at the people who are really into Chinese culture and history. They love the updates and the amount of extras they are getting in this huge epic story.....

 

[Oblivion]

the more realistic football games have become, the less i have cared.

Completely agree.