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[E3-MS] Xbox FastStart: Start games 2x+ faster using machine learning

rokkerkory

Member
Did not see a thread for this but this is pretty exciting since games are getting bigger and bigger and taking longer to download and play. This uses ML to learn and get faster as the algorithm improves. Will be available in the June update.

FastStart identifies which files are needed to begin playing and prioritizes the download of those files first, enabling you to quickly jump into full-fidelity gameplay while the remainder of your title downloads in the background. Simply find the FastStart-enabled title you want to play in our catalog, hit 'Download' and your console will take care of the rest. It's that simple.

Unlike the current "Ready to Start" system, which is manually configured during development, FastStart uses machine learning based on how gamers actually play each game. What's more, as an Xbox platform-level feature, developers will not be required to do any extra work for their titles to experience the benefits of FastStart. While FastStart does not speed up download times, by identifying which files are needed to begin gameplay and prioritizing the download of those files first, you can expect to jump into your game, on average, twice as fast as you did previously. That means if a game previously took 30 minutes to download and play, you will now be able to begin gameplay after just 15 minutes. In addition, since FastStart takes advantage of machine learning, we will continue to improve our algorithm over time getting players into the fun as soon as possible.

https://news.xbox.com/en-us/2018/06/10/e3-2018-jump-into-games-faster-with-faststart/

Pushing and improving system side tech is equally as important as the games themselves to give players the best experience possible. Hope this becomes the norm for all games in the future.
 
Powa of the cloud, I mean deep learning!

Sony already does this, you don't need nearal nets to tell you which files are needed first 😂
 
It sounds to me like they are using the cloud to make a large indexing engine much like Oracle's ExaData product has.
 
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Nope. Bet you anything Sony's consoles will always have faster ''starts''. This windows 10 architecture is so bad that now they have to convince you that being ''always online'' will make the things go faster... Please
 
Nope. Bet you anything Sony's consoles will always have faster ''starts''. This windows 10 architecture is so bad that now they have to convince you that being ''always online'' will make the things go faster... Please
They are sending the right bits to you. That is all this does. Sony can do it too if they put money into it. Everyone wins here. Windows 10 has not much to do with this. Also, if you think Windows 10 tech is bad.... I got some swamp land in Florida to sell you.
 
Nope. Bet you anything Sony's consoles will always have faster ''starts''. This windows 10 architecture is so bad that now they have to convince you that being ''always online'' will make the things go faster... Please
Which architecture can do back compatibility again?...
 
As a software developer, I don't understand why we need fucking machine learning when a simple binary dashboard toggle (install singleplayer? [/ YES], install multiplayer? [/ fuck no, never], would have sufficed. Fuck the cloud with a hammer. I don't need my "needs" to be anticipated by an invasive, analytics harvesting trash-tier Microsoft AI. I want my will to be applied via a personally selected global offline option in the Xbox dashboard. You know, like the options we all had on the Xbox 360 dashboard over ten, fucking, years, ago. So much for the digital future. More like the digital dystopia.

Bring back the original Xbox team please. They knew what they were doing.
 
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Clearly a number of people who responded do not understand what this FastStart tech represents and why it is obviously a benefit to the gamer.

https://www.windowscentral.com/hands-incredible-xbox-fast-start

"Microsoft's servers analyze which parts of a game installation are accessed first, and begin compiling the install order to reflect that progression. As such, games will be ready to play far faster up to fifty percent faster, according to the company.
As game installation sizes get bigger, and as more and more gamers experiment with new titles via Game Pass and other subscription services, this could be a game changer."

Guys, this isn't a system trying to predict your behavior or anything silly like that. If my understanding is correct, it's a program that analyzes games being installed and played and learns which files, of the presumable vast number (and not labeled "this one first, this one second" like some of you seem to think, hurr-hurr), are needed during the first hours of gameplay. The system prioritizes downloading only those specific files required earlier during the game so you can jump into gameplay 50% faster while the remainder of the game downloads in the background. There is no downside. There will be an arrow that tells you when you can start playing, due to FastStart. Currently some games, like SoD 2 say "ready to start", but are not actually ready to play, you can only look at the menu. This is not that. This will let you actually start gameplay as if the entire game was downloaded. This is new. This is an undeniably great feature, unless you prefer waiting twice as long to play the game you are downloading.

xbox-faststart-flame-2.jpg
 
This is really good.
Manual "ready to start" implementations usually suck, most of the times they only provide a screen where you can watch the game download.
 
This all seems very nebulous, I'm a little skeptical to be honest. Isn't this as simple as download the first level, MP first or whatever the equivalent is? Don't see what some fancy alogrythm will bring aside from PR buzz. Also, wouldn't this only work once the sample size is relatively large, meaning only for those that download games some time after release? Idk, seems like an interesting concept that won't likely amount to much.
 
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This all seems very nebulous, I'm a little skeptical to be honest. Isn't this as simple as download the first level, MP first or whatever the equivalent is? Don't see what some fancy alogrythm will bring aside from PR buzz. Also, wouldn't this only work once the sample size is relatively large, meaning only for those that download games some time after release? Idk, seems like an interesting concept that won't likely amount to much.
The big difference in my opinion is that FastStart doesn't require an implementation from the devs, it's automatic.
 
This all seems very nebulous, I'm a little skeptical to be honest. Isn't this as simple as download the first level, MP first or whatever the equivalent is? Don't see what some fancy alogrythm will bring aside from PR buzz. Also, wouldn't this only work once the sample size is relatively large, meaning only for those that download games some time after release? Idk, seems like an interesting concept that won't likely amount to much.

I'm not a programmer or a tech guy, but I'm quite sure it's not so simple as "downloading the first level." I don't think code is written like that. I'm sure there are files accessed during the first level, that are also used during every other level, etc. So it's not obvious which ones are to be prioritized, hence this is left to machine learning to crunch the data.

Also, I'd think that MS would analyze their own games prerelease, if possible. If not, certainly early during the first day of launch FastStart would be crunching numbers and prioritizing files for people who downloaded it later that same day.
 
This all seems very nebulous, I'm a little skeptical to be honest. Isn't this as simple as download the first level, MP first or whatever the equivalent is? Don't see what some fancy alogrythm will bring aside from PR buzz. Also, wouldn't this only work once the sample size is relatively large, meaning only for those that download games some time after release? Idk, seems like an interesting concept that won't likely amount to much.

Actually finding the code needed to be downloaded manually to work right away or quickly isn't easy. It has to be manually done right now, which is why nothing uses it correctly.

Look at how many games simply load up to a screen that says dowoading.

This will help alleviate that issue and take the weight off developers backs.
 
I remember playing The Order 1886 and getting to a certain point where it stopped and said the game still needed to be downloaded. There are also those other times where they ask if you want single player or multiplayer downloaded first.

It would be cool to ride that level loading bandwidth that doesn't intercept whatever you're trying to accomplish with remarks about it needing to be downloaded first. I recall the cloud being discussed many years ago as a way to add to the experience. In my mind I picture dynamic events or some sorta change while being connected. I guess Microsoft has figured a way to hammer out all the bumps along the way.

Mass Effect on 360 would let me enter a room and all the assets needed to load. I don't know the technical term, but I wonder if that'll ever become a problem. If you can somehow get ahead of whatever the download is doing.
 
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I don't understand why we need fucking machine learning when a simple binary dashboard toggle (install singleplayer? [/ YES], install multiplayer? [/ fuck no, never], would have sufficed. Fuck the cloud with a hammer. I don't need my "needs" to be anticipated by an invasive, analytics harvesting trash-tier Microsoft AI.

Jeez man, they developed a catch all way to let everyone download and play a game faster, regardless of it being multiplayer or single player or both. This could theoretically be applied to patches in the future. That binary dashboard toggle you're asking for is harder to implement across every game than this machine learning algorithm is.

They probably have OS level hooks built in to monitor when game files are first accessed after this rolls out, so every time you play a game you'll be sending data to Microsoft to improve their analytics.
 
I think this is marketing BS, much like the block chain name stuff. It doesn't make sense to add machine learning for this. Why, cause of the linear nature of games. Just lemme download singleplayer or multiplayer first, like the ps4 does it. Or download the first level first....like the ps4!! It's like you need to deploy machine learning to know that people are going to play world 1-1 first
 
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I think this is marketing BS, much like the block chain name stuff. It doesn't make sense to add machine learning for this. Why, cause of the linear nature of games. Just lemme download singleplayer or multiplayer first, like the ps4 does it. Or download the first level first....like the ps4!! It's like you need to deploy machine learning to know that people are going to play world 1-1 first
The Xbox One has these options too, just like the PS4.
But it must be implemented manually by the devs.
MS is trying to make them automatic. The devs won't need to touch the code.
 
Sounds interesting, I hope this catches on. Tired of booting to the title menu only to be stuck there while the game continues to download.
 
I bought the original Prey online through some new service back then (Pipe or some such) that did this. It was pretty magical, especially in those lower bandwith days. PS4's system is the closest I've experienced so far, but still not quite the same. This has potential.
 
This is a good thing, for sure, but it did feel a little out of place in their otherwise excellent conference, if only because I wasn't aware (or had forgotten) XB1 had a problem with slow starts. It just hasn't been an issue for me, because even on PS4 my practice this gen is to put any new game in the console, make sure it's installing/updating properly, then go do something else for a while. Kind of weird, but it's where we're at for now.

Regardless, good news is good news. What's there to fight about? *shrug*
 
This is a good thing, for sure, but it did feel a little out of place in their otherwise excellent conference, if only because I wasn't aware (or had forgotten) XB1 had a problem with slow starts.

Also it would have been better suited for GDC than E3, since the developers will be the first to benefit from that feature.

As for the other "why do we need machine learning ?" reactions, people should realize that ML is everywhere when you're dealing with complex data. Sure you can do most of those tasks by designing it by hand, but it's just slower and less effective. There's no magic in ML, it's just an extension of statistical analysis, except it's designed to work mostly automatically, without requiring much work from human operators. So that's good.
ML could already handle street lights control in a city or energy networks for optimal distribution. Sure a human could design logical rules like "just make things faster at peak hours", but ML can fine tune it better, and adapt constantly to new contexts.
 
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They need to use machine learning to improve loading times.

Star Wars Battlefront 2 literally takes 3 minutes to load every single time I launch it. That's crazy compared to other games that load in seconds.
 
Is each machine going to use machine learning? Or are they going to do something using networks, since millions of people will be playing same game on same hardware. Maybe they can patch OS so each game loads faster?
 
It's most likely that they're using the behaviour of all users to decide the rules, since all games are built differently. There's probably no way of learning from your way of playing 100 games how you'll play the 101st, while it's easier to learn from 100 players playing the same game.
It would also mean that the very first persons to play the game won't benefit from fast start, since the system would still be in its learning phase.
 
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They need to use machine learning to improve loading times.

Star Wars Battlefront 2 literally takes 3 minutes to load every single time I launch it. That's crazy compared to other games that load in seconds.

All Frostbite games have long load times even on PC, DICE must do domething to the engine.
 
Is each machine going to use machine learning? Or are they going to do something using networks, since millions of people will be playing same game on same hardware. Maybe they can patch OS so each game loads faster?
how can it possibly learn if it's never loaded it before?

it's obviously done before a user comes to download it
 
Reading the comments I think I'm equally confused as the experts* on the matter.
What is this doing any differently than what Sony is doing or vast majority of MMORG's companies?
Recently I've noticed news outlets run with the term AI and Machine Learning when it's anything but that.
Not shitposting, honestly asking and I'd appreciate an educated answer if someone does bother to reply.
 
Reading the comments I think I'm equally confused as the experts* on the matter.
What is this doing any differently than what Sony is doing.
Xbox already has the same feature that Playstation does, the problem is that developers either don't use it or use it poorly.

This automates the process enabling it without the developers having to do anything. It should result in more games having it enabled and because of machine learning it should be better utilised letting games start quicker.

On top of that, it's not limited to only Xbox One games. Microsoft is currently testing it on Fusion Frenzy (Xbox) and Viva Pinata (360).



It's less useful on those games because they're smaller, but at the minimum required download speed of 20mbit that would make Viva Pinata playable in 20 minutes instead of 40.
 
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It's actually quite impressive that they can make it work for old games that don't have any "hook" for such feature.

What is this doing any differently than what Sony is doing or vast majority of MMORG's companies?

The old system will download in priority the parts of the game that the devs assume will be the first to be useful (and necessary) to a player starting with the game. With ML, it will download in priority the parts it knows will be used first by a player starting a game (or most of them anyway, since it's by observing their usage that it decides the rules). It just makes it easier to the developer (no need to make a guess, and since it works with older games I assume they won't even need to do anything special to activate it), and gives an opportunity to get better results for the player in the end.
In the end it's just a performance improvement of the original idea, but that's always good.
 
It's actually quite impressive that they can make it work for old games that don't have any "hook" for such feature.
I was impressed by that too. I wanted to try and break it by loading a late game save to see what would happen, but I mustn't have uploaded my Viva Pinata save.

I wonder how the system would handle that? Would you be stuck waiting until the game fully installed or would it be smart enough to prioritise the necessary files? Especially in a game like Viva Pinata that obviously has no idea such a system even exists.
 
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I get it now. I DLed SoD2 and it said ready and when I started it it was just a progress bar and some menus. Sony doesn't do that, when it says ready you can play part of the game. So this is MS playing catch-up I guess.
 
I get it now. I DLed SoD2 and it said ready and when I started it it was just a progress bar and some menus. Sony doesn't do that, when it says ready you can play part of the game. So this is MS playing catch-up I guess.
But some games on xbox do let you play before its fully downloaded be it the tutorial or the start of the single player campaign.
 
Sony doesn't do that, when it says ready you can play part of the game. So this is MS playing catch-up I guess.
No. Theoretically this is Microsoft blowing past Sony.

Both Sony's and Microsoft's systems needed to be manually configured and enabled by developers. This new system is automatic, meaning more games should have it enabled.
 
I get it now. I DLed SoD2 and it said ready and when I started it it was just a progress bar and some menus. Sony doesn't do that, when it says ready you can play part of the game. So this is MS playing catch-up I guess.

Plenty of games do that on ps4(ready to play just loading into a progress bar). Like Destiny 2
 
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Regarding Sony, they seem to have an official PSN policy that if a game exceeds certain size (about 10GB would be my guesstimate), it must first download a playable portion before downloading the rest. This is all well and good, especially for people with slower net connections, but the problem is there seems to be no curation as to what constitutes "playable". I swear there was some game that basically let me only marvel at the main menu, but as I can't remember what it was, don't quote me on that. I do remember trying out DC Online though - I got to create a character, do a very very brief tutorial and after that just idle in the player entry lounge while waiting a couple of hours for the rest of the game to be playable. Riveting gameplay it was. So while it's good Sony is doing it, they should also hold the creators responsible for there being some reasonable content available initially. Then again, "Life of Black Tiger"... perhaps should there be any curation on PSN ever, curating the "preview" part of a game isn't the highest priority.

As to Microsoft and what they're doing here, it's different from what Sony is doing and if Microsoft can get it to work, great!

But I remain skeptical. First of all, it is far from a trivial problem. Say there's an open world game, where the player can almost immediately go anywhere. In such case it's pretty much impossible to create a solution that would serve all players - by accommodating some, others would be disadvantaged. So I can't see it ever working (at least satisfactorily) with such games.

But OK, let us assume that we're instead dealing with the most linear of linear games, entirely deterministic. In what way would this system help then? All the players would require the same data. There's no opportunity for the machine to learn....

....which brings me to the main point why I'm so skeptical. "Machine learning". To me, it's like hearing "power of the cloud" (not a jab at Microsoft specifically - working in tech is just a constant bombardment of buzzwords from everywhere), which to me sounds like "we really have no idea how this will work, but it will, honest!". Don't get me wrong, AI is an important field of study, and will be even more so in the future. But will it be relevant in the near future determining which bits of a game we want to play first, that I find hard to believe. And Microsoft's track record with AI isn't exactly stellar (remember the Twitter bot?).

Edit: so the more I think of this "FastStart", the less it makes sense. I suppose a "machine intelligence" may be able to pick up what players on average do (otherwise knowing as collecting datapoints and extrapolating on the data, something statisticians have been doing for ages - then again, many statisticians I know seem to be only artificially intelligent, so perhaps there's something there). That's a fine first step. And then.... what? Will said "AI" be able to extract just the necessary assets for the initial gameplay? What if they are not in separate files, will the "AI" be able to strip them out for intermittent use before the full game is available? That is quite implausible in itself and may even require changes to the engine for it to work.

But the bigger question is, what if the engine itself is huge? Ideally, instead of loading whole engine, there'd be just a small subset and required assets for few hours of gameplay. It sounds nice, but I'd also like a pony with that. There's absolutely no fucking way Microsoft has constructed an AI capable of figuring out what bits of a binary are not required during execution. That's akin to solving the "halting problem", and if Microsoft had done that, you bet your ass they'd shout their lungs out. As is, we get a small announcement at an E3 presentation. Until we know more, I'm dubbing this "implausible" if not "impossible".
 
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Edit: so the more I think of this "FastStart", the less it makes sense. I suppose a "machine intelligence" may be able to pick up what players on average do (otherwise knowing as collecting datapoints and extrapolating on the data, something statisticians have been doing for ages

Eh, I'll say it again, but machine learning is nothing but advanced statistics. Only it's one of those things that machines can do faster and more efficiently than any human operator : crunching huge amounts of data and handling large numbers of parameters that would make any regular brain dizzy. There's no magic in it, but it doesn't make it less effective. It's like how Nasa engineers in the 60s were spending days making complex calculations by hand on a black board, and now anybody can do the same in a millisecond by pushing a couple of buttons. Same task, but made infinitely easier.
It's a common aspect of technological progress : turning a complex task that required time and expertise, into something easily accessible to anybody anywhere.
 
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Eh, I'll say it again, but machine learning is nothing but advanced statistics. Only it's one of those things that machines can do faster and more efficiently than any human operator : crunching huge amounts of data and handling large numbers of parameters that would make any regular brain dizzy. There's no magic in it, but it doesn't make it less effective. It's like how Nasa engineers in the 60s were spending days making complex calculations by hand on a black board, and now anybody can do the same in a millisecond by pushing a couple of buttons. Same task, but made infinitely easier.
Sure, as I implied earlier in the thread, this sounds very much like applied statistics.

That doesn't change the fact that actually determining what gets downloaded, especially when it comes to code and not assets, is an insurmountably difficult task. I'm not kidding, had Microsoft come up with an AI capable of working out what parts of an executable get called and what can be safely discarded (and remember this is not analyzing the source code, which would be difficult enough, but the resulting binary) they wouldn't just give a brief mention at E3. They'd be lining up for a Turing award, a Nobel price and whatnot.
 
I wouldn't go that far. Most of it is in the data collection, and even if I don't know much about how binaries are structured on an Xbox, it doesn't sound ludicrous that the system can keep track of which parts of the storage are read at any time. The other hard part would be to make sure the program "knows" it has enough data to start running, which is standard for modern games but not for ancient ones.
Those are tough engineering tasks, but nothing that sounds impossible. The AI part would actually be the easier one.
 
I wouldn't go that far. Most of it is in the data collection, and even if I don't know much about how binaries are structured on an Xbox, it doesn't sound ludicrous that the system can keep track of which parts of the storage are read at any time.
Just a wild guess - you haven't ever really programmed, especially using compiled languages in a professional setting? You can't just yank pieces of a binary away and expect it to function as-is. It may serve a similar purpose as it was intended to (but I may get hit by a lightning too, still it really doesn't concern me). And besides, in order to tell what parts of a binary are required, the AI/system/what have you would in effect need to answer the "halting problem". And if MS engineers could do that, I'm sure they wouldn't mind the cash too.

Look, I'm not against the idea of FastStart. It sounds good even. But the way this has been described to us, as of yet, seems very much infeasible. This is purely from a technical/programming POV. I'll happily eat crow if they really manage to do what they're describing, but I think I'll be sticking with my regular diet for quite a while.
 
Just a wild guess - you haven't ever really programmed, especially using compiled languages in a professional setting? You can't just yank pieces of a binary away and expect it to function as-is.

As a matter of fact, I have, even if I never "yank" parts of my binaries. :p But that's where the learning part is useful : by analyzing user data, you should quickly see which parts of the data are usually "yanked" together when people are using the game. And if enough user patterns use the same sections of the data, you can identify those as both necessary and sufficient to run a part of the game.
Also we don't know how granular the optimization is, but what usually takes time to (down)load is the game assets. Even if the logic part is hard (maybe even impossible) to split into separate bricks, identifying the assets you need is where you'll win most time.
 
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Sounds like a good idea, Esp considering how terrible installs and updates on xbone were at and near launch. They clearly needed to review speed at any rate.

No idea why people think what Microsoft is proposing isn't doable. As long as they have enough statistical data regarding game assets there is no reason why they couldn't tailor the downloads to attempt to get the game to run as quick as possible.
It clearly won't work for all titles and would work better with games organized in particular ways but what they described isn't magical rocket science. It should work for a variety of games
 
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No idea why people think what Microsoft is proposing isn't doable.
I mean - it was 2013 at the One reveal that we were introduced to the wonders of "the cloud". To date, its utilization has been minimal (if any?), latency was and remains an issue. But still, latency aside, that remains a tried and tested method - offloading tasks to a bigger computer was how computing was at its infancy (now with the cloud, everything old is new again). So they weren't describing any new or revolutionary thing, it was all evolutionary stuff, no reason why it wouldn't work (aside from the latency).

Now here, they are doing this whole new thing, that is possible due to... "machine learning!". And that's it. No technical description beyond that whatsoever. As said I'll happily eat crow if it works. But at the same time, something about fool me once and all that.
 
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