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[Sypher]

Games need to start cutting the fat.

I remember when I loved playing Madden games back on the Genesis. Now I turn the damn thing on and I'm like, what the **** is all this shit.


That's what I loved so much about Wii Sports. I don't give a shit about pixel perfect pitch boxes and shit, just let me swing the bat and hit a home run. Games are constantly getting custom fashioned to meet the demands on the hardcore fans, and the hardcore fans want nothing but more more more more. This kind of thinking is going to kill the industry. This might be my new overused talking point, but at this rate they will turn into the comic book industry. If they keep going further and further into this hole that they are creating, there will come a time where they reach the point of no return.


EA dude is right. Games are too ****ing complex.


See, you guys take it to the extreme, it's not about more dog sims or brain games, it's about taking things a step back and making games fun for everyone again.

And the exact opposite is any better? How going from somewhat complex to mind numbingly easy any better? Games are not rocket science. They at most require some eye-hand coordination outside of the extreme cases where people have mastered a games dynamics to a T.

Honestly, the median between catering to the hardcore crowd and appeasing the casuals is evidenced by some of the best selling games in recent years, the GTAs and God of Wars.

I just don't get why all of a sudden gamers, consumer and developer alike, everywhere have decided to look at everything they have played and loved and thought "this is too hard"

 

[mcgarrett]

As far as what you said about Tetris, thats really completely different topic and I don't really want to get into it. I'll just say this; as fun as Mike Tysons Punch Out was, I prefer a game like Fight Night to it, and I think it's a better way in just about every category.

I'm not arguing preferences -- of course there should be more complex games for folks that enjoy them. The problem is that there's no modern equivalent to more accessible titles like Punch Out! or Tecmo Bowl.

 

[Vagabundo]

I don't like soccer. :/

I dont either or games about soccer. But I bought this and really enojoyed it.

Seriously it is a very accessible non-soccer game

 

[Tobor]

Sure, as long as we are making our way towards Idiocracy. Seriously, if a couple buttons befuddle most people, I think we have a lot more to worry about than video games.

Of course people can understand complex controls. We use complex machines in our jobs every day. It's whether or not we want to use complicated controls and interfaces in our relaxation time as well, that's the question. Do the majority of people want to spend the time to learn how to play complex games?

Can figure out != wants to figure out.

 

[Pureauthor]

Honestly, the median between catering to the hardcore crowd and appeasing the casuals is evidenced by some of the best selling games in recent years, the GTAs and God of Wars.

I think the 'problem' is that people (such as the decision makers at EA) are looking towards more recent examples of best-selling games.

 

[krypt0nian]

If games are trending towards the simple, they will lose a nice big chunk of the current audience in the process. I want no part of it. Leave the morons on their yahoo games sites.

Again, casual gamers that can't be bothered with controls are not buying games in the quantity that core gamers do. They buy 1-2 games a year.

 

[mckmas8808]

I'm not arguing preferences -- of course there should be more complex games for folks that enjoy them. The problem is that there's no modern equivalent to more accessible titles like Punch Out! or Tecmo Bowl.

Wii Sports and NFL Street.

 

[Stop It]

Moku read my words more clearly man. It goes like this.

Comparison between 80's and today

The point is EVERYTHING IS MORE COMPLICATED NOWADAYS!!!

O rly? So why is it that all 3 products have all been hailed as the products with the highest accessability in their class? Windows XP is the easiest version of any operating system, ever, the iPod won the MP3 wars because it was so easy to use, simple, functional, marvellous, and the PS2 became popular because it had games that were easy to pick up and play, the vast majority of PS2s went to casuals with only a few games in mind.

Care to re-think your point?

 

[Evlar]

O rly? So why is it that all 3 products have all been hailed as the products with the highest accessability? Windows XP is the easiest version of any operating system, ever, the iPod won the MP3 wars because it was so easy to use, simple, functional, marvellous, and the PS2 became popular because it had games that were easy to pick up and play, the vast majority of PS2s went to casuals with only a few games in mind.

Care to re-think your point?

:lol OK that's some funny shit.

 

[krypt0nian]

The PS2 catered to EVERYONE and the Win XP comment is all sorts of LOL.

 

[maxmars]

I don't like soccer. :/

You don't need to -- it's a matter of putting a ball into a net, with all the mario universe paraphernalia stuff thrown in (bananas, shells etc) in the mario kart vein. It's more of a spiritual successor to speedball games.

MSC is clearly a game for those who don't give a damn about football rules, conventions and tactics.

 

[Campster]

Again, casual gamers that can't be bothered with controls are not buying games in the quantity that core gamers do. They buy 1-2 games a year.

You... you do realize that gamers are a teeny tiny itsy bitsy portion of the population, right? If a game is released that 75% of gamers buy, that's nowhere near the hit that a game that just 5% of the general population with access to a computer or game console buys. Individually they may only buy one or two games a year, but they outnumber the idiotically hardcore a good deal.

 

[POWERSPHERE]

PLEASE EA! DON'T F**K SKATE WITH YOUR NEW HIPPY WAYS!!!!!!!!!

 

[Pureauthor]

If games are trending towards the simple, they will lose a nice big chunk of the current audience in the process.

Not that I'm necessarily disagreeing with what you're saying, but you do realize that a 'nice big chunk of the current audience' has left for every generation? They get replaced by others in turn, that's all.

 

[Sypher]

If gaming is heading toward this Hit A to win mentality, I hate to ask but, was it really a good thing that the DS and Wii were/are such amazing sucess stories?

 

[krypt0nian]

You... you do realize that gamers are a teeny tiny itsy bitsy portion of the population, right? If a game is released that 75% of gamers buy, that's nowhere near the hit that a game that just 5% of the general population with access to a computer or game console buys. Individually they may only buy one or two games a year, but they outnumber the idiotically hardcore a good deal.

Sure, they'd sell like mad. Lowest common denominator shit always does.

And what would that do to gaming? You'd now have this ginormas one game a year buyer population. What do you think the devs would cater to? How many shitty casual 2 button games would be thrown on the shelves since these new gamers are the target buyers? Where would the thrust of development go? Into the casual toilet, like the majority of popcap /yahoo games shit. There would be no need for innovation since that audience just craves the same games over and over.

Some of you think like Nintendo, and not like gamers. I'm all for some fun easy pick up and play games (Katamari, etc) but if the industry shifts like some are saying, it won't be worth a cup to piss in.

 

[Tobor]

This thread needs some Xanax. There is some serious Paranoia in here.

 

[Pureauthor]

If gaming is heading toward this Hit A to win mentality, I hate to ask but, was it really a good thing that the DS and Wii were/are such amazing sucess stories?

I'm not sure what's the logical connection, because the DS being an amazing success story on the back of Touch Generations games sure isn't affecting the amount of awesome games coming out for it.

 

[maxmars]

If gaming is heading toward this Hit A to win mentality, I hate to ask but, was it really a good thing that the DS and Wii were/are such amazing sucess stories?

Let's not forget that bore fests and easy games have been here for a long time (to me, most modern jrpgs).

Also, accessible doesn't mean easy. Even simple games like laser hockey in Wiiplay reward the most skilled player, only, they don't require typewriting skills.

 

[mcgarrett]

How many shitty casual 2 button games would be thrown on the shelves since these new gamers are the target buyers?

How is this any different than the avalanche of shitty FPS shooters that are thrown on the shelves today? Good games are good games and bad games are bad games, regardless of their "hardcoreness" or "casualness".

 

[Campster]

Sure, they'd sell like mad. Lowest common denominator shit always does.

And what would that do to gaming? You'd now have this ginormas one game a year buyer population. What do you think the devs would cater to? How many shitty casual 2 button games would be thrown on the shelves since these new gamers are the target buyers? Where would the thrust of development go? Into the casual toilet, like the majority of popcap /yahoo games shit. There would be no need for innovation since that audience just craves the same games over and over.

Some of you think like Nintendo, and not like gamers. I'm all for some fun easy pick up and play games (Katamari, etc) but if the industry shifts like some are saying, it won't be worth a cup to piss in.

Christ, why is this an all or nothing game? Why is it that to sell huge numbers of a few quality casual titles to people who, as you're so keen to point out, only buy one or two games a year anyways we need to completely shut down the production of games like Bioshock and GTA?

This isn't an us-versus-them argument, and if you're trying to turn it into one you're a goddamned idiot. "Gamers" aren't some endangered wildlife on the verge of extinction, hunted down by rabid-eyed "casuals" who have sabotaged their food supply. There's more than enough room for easy games and hard games, casual games and complex games, quick games and long games. Calm down and stop screaming about the sky falling long enough to think about what you're saying.

 

[Evlar]

Well, from my experience the hardest game released last year was on the DS (Yoshi's Island DS), and the hardest game I've played so far this year is also on the DS (Etrian Odyssey). I don't see a reason to panic.

 

[Bulla564]

Simpler games with 2 buttons take CONTROL away from the player. The opposite is also true. As we grew older, and technology allowed it, gamers gained more control over their experience.

The more mature experiences, the more realistic experiences, etc. demand that the player have CONTROL on many things, because in life, things are not just run&jump or move&shoot. Moreover, the industry jumped to being a +100 million user-base when it started approaching more realistic/mature themes that gave more control to players.

Thankfully, I know that not all games will be made by EA or Nintendo. Nintendo has great epic games, but their direction does not give me the movie/real life-like experiences I have come to expect from great videogames. It's just my own personal taste.

 

[Sypher]

I'm not sure what's the logical connection, because the DS being an amazing success story on the back of Touch Generations games sure isn't affecting the amount of awesome games coming out for it.

I'm not disregarding the fact that the DS has awesome games on it, but the fact that you can throw a Hannah Montana on it and make more than you ever could with a budget 3 times its size, is that a good thing for the industry?

 

[ElectricBlue187]

I think a movie business analogy is in order.

Sure you've got cop outs that optimize the term such as Transformers...movies that were made specifically to make as much money as possible and then you've got artistic films like Munich or Crash, they don't make a ton of money but are they better films? hell yes.

Same situation has already developed in the gaming industry. You've got your Sims and Tycoons but you also get your Mass Effects and MGS4s as well...the two worlds can co-exist because the people making games want to make those epic kinds of games just like directors want to make those artistic films

 

[Tobor]

Christ, why is this an all or nothing game? Why is it that to sell huge numbers of a few quality casual titles to people who, as you're so keen to point out, only buy one or two games a year anyways we need to completely shut down the production of games like Bioshock and GTA?

This isn't an us-versus-them argument, and if you're trying to turn it into one you're a goddamned idiot. "Gamers" aren't some endangered wildlife on the verge of extinction, hunted down by rabid-eyed "casuals" who have sabotaged their food supply. There's more than enough room for easy games and hard games, casual games and complex games, quick games and long games. Calm down and stop screaming about the sky falling long enough to think about what you're saying.

Campster wins the thread. /golf clap

 

[RevenantKioku]

Isn't the main point here that EA has been boring me to death years before the Wii?

 

[heliosRAzi]

The more mature experiences, the more realistic experiences, etc. demand that the player have CONTROL on many things, because in life, things are not just run&jump or move&shoot. Moreover, the industry jumped to being a +100 million user-base when it started approaching more realistic/mature themes that gave more control to players.

That is not the reason

 

[MrPing1000]

Games need to start cutting the fat.

I remember when I loved playing Madden games back on the Genesis. Now I turn the damn thing on and I'm like, what the **** is all this shit.


That's what I loved so much about Wii Sports. I don't give a shit about pixel perfect pitch boxes and shit, just let me swing the bat and hit a home run. Games are constantly getting custom fashioned to meet the demands on the hardcore fans, and the hardcore fans want nothing but more more more more. This kind of thinking is going to kill the industry. This might be my new overused talking point, but at this rate they will turn into the comic book industry. If they keep going further and further into this hole that they are creating, there will come a time where they reach the point of no return.


EA dude is right. Games are too ****ing complex.


See, you guys take it to the extreme, it's not about more dog sims or brain games, it's about taking things a step back and making games fun for everyone again.

Has anyone ever tried to do both inside one game? Have a omgz stats hardcore experience and a slimmed down basic pick up and play experience from the same game without having to play with options? One mode has all the players, all the stats all the plays. The other you just pick a team and a basic play and off you go. Surely it's feasible. Of course theres probably more money in Madden'08 + Madden Street'08 (making shit up for an example here) than just one game that can facilitate both.

 

[Pureauthor]

I'm not disregarding the fact that the DS has awesome games on it, but the fact that you can throw a Hannah Montana on it and make more than you ever could with a budget 3 times its size, is that a good thing for the industry?

Well, no, but that's nothing new, since we've always had a bunch of cash-in games raking in the money.

The DS as a success story may have allowed success of games that you and I don't really care for much, but there's always been successful games that I really didn't care much about either (such as GTAIII). However, if you follow sales you'll see that most games are doing better on the DS than in previous iterations such as the GBA. Thus, to me, it's no cause for concern.

 

[segarr]

As for the "Simpler controlls" argument goes......think that it has more to do with simple repitition and your hands getting used to using a specific controller then it does to do with some "stepping stone" theory or whatever a few have thought of. I really don't feel that me playing the NES at a young age has much to do with why I can pick up console controllers today and learn how to use them efficiently with little effort.

The best thing a company can do at console launch is to come out with a killer app that uses every or almost every button on the controller. A game like Halo 1 on the Xbox for example....I don't see how anyone could play through the campaign (Or even part of it) on that game and not become accustomed to the controller (Okay, the Xbox controller was huge at launch, but I'm really just using this for an example).

After a few games, I feel that most people will not only be able to use a controller correctly, but they will have that sixth sense about what the buttons will do before playing the game, like most of us "hardcore" gamers do. I mean, I know how to play most games before I even pick them up. Take shooters for example (Probably the easist example) Right trigger - shoot. Left trigger - Secondary fire, grenades, or dual wield. Left thumbstick click - crouch. Right thumbstick click - zoom in. X - Reload or open doors. A - Jump or open doors. B - Gun butt. Y - Usually some special feature, or, not even used. Bumpers - Switch weapons, or something to do with toggling.

This is with the 360 controller of course, and yeah, I know that there is a million and one example against what I said. But really, does anyone here not feel the same way about alot of their game controls?

 

[Sypher]

I think a movie business analogy is in order.

Sure you've got cop outs that optimize the term such as Transformers...movies that were made specifically to make as much money as possible and then you've got artistic films like Munich or Crash, they don't make a ton of money but are they better films? hell yes.

Same situation has already developed in the gaming industry. You've got your Sims and Tycoons but you also get your Mass Effects and MGS4s as well...the two worlds can co-exist because the people making games want to make those epic kinds of games just like directors want to make those artistic films

Its a business first, a hobby second. If the Mass Effects and MGSs cant hold a candle to what Dogz, Catz, and Hamsterz can make, AND they cost 1/4 development cost(artists, programmers, etc), what do you think would happen?

 

[RevenantKioku]

Simpler games with 2 buttons take CONTROL away from the player. The opposite is also true. As we grew older, and technology allowed it, gamers gained more control over their experience.

I have still yet to see enough games efficiently use today's many-buttoned controllers.
If anything, today's user interfaces and button mapings in games are generally terrible if not just as bad as they once were. Either you have dead or redundant buttons, too many functions slapped in the wrong places, or just horrible UIs. If anything in games needs a big revamp, it's how they handle these things.
And yes, before someone comes to point out exceptions to this, no shit. I know of a few exceptions, but by now it should be goddamned majority rule on this topic.

 

[mcgarrett]

I'm not disregarding the fact that the DS has awesome games on it, but the fact that you can throw a Hannah Montana on it and make more than you ever could with a budget 3 times its size, is that a good thing for the industry?

And of course this phenomenon is strictly limited to the DS and Wii (*cough*, Transformers: The Movie multiplatform, Spiderman 3 multiplatform, etc)

 

[Madman]

Of course people can understand complex controls. We use complex machines in our jobs every day. It's whether or not we want to use complicated controls and interfaces in our relaxation time as well, that's the question. Do the majority of people want to spend the time to learn how to play complex games?

Can figure out != wants to figure out.

That's the beauty of games. You can make them however you want. You can dumb down parts of the games(you know like game designers have been doing for years) so that they are both easy to pick up but are also very deep. God of War is a great example as well. On easy, left analogue, square, triangle. Simple. Then, the more serious gamer can do the Challenge of the Titans, put it on a harder difficulty, and make full use of the combat system.

The idea isn't making a game strictly overly complex or so easy that a baby can play, it's making so that both are true.

Games do not need to be as a whole dumbed down. Just designed better. This issue has nothing to do with the complexity of modern systems, it has everything to do with a designers ability to make their game both easy to pick up and deep for players who want to do more than just play casually.

 

[Sypher]

And of course this phenomenon is strictly limited to the DS and Wii (*cough*, Transformers: The Movie multiplatform, Spiderman 3 multiplatform, etc)

Ofcourse not, but those two platforms highlight the situation.

 

[RevenantKioku]

I'm not disregarding the fact that the DS has awesome games on it, but the fact that you can throw a Hannah Montana on it and make more than you ever could with a budget 3 times its size, is that a good thing for the industry?

What the **** do you want? Protesters telling people not to buy these games? The "hardcore" can't control what others buy. Parents and young kids are always going to buy licensed tripe. It happened way back in the start of video games and it will go on for as long as they exist.
I just can't see your point because it is the consumers who choose what products they want.

 

[Evlar]

Has anyone ever tried to do both inside one game? Have a omgz stats hardcore experience and a slimmed down basic pick up and play experience from the same game without having to play with options? Surely it's feasible. Of course theres probably more money in Madden'08 + Madden Street'08 (making shit up for an example here) than just one game that can facilitate both

Yes. Also HELL yes. Most of the games being used as examples of "hardcore" gameplay here are in actuality pretty casual-friendly. I've already pointed out how simple the driving mechanics in GTA3 are. Gran Turismo can be played by anyone who can operate the L-stick and a trigger (not played exceptionally well, but that's not what we're talking about here). Every fighter has its share of masher-friendly characters. Halo can be adapted to in about five or ten minutes, though it takes much longer to master. And so on.

It's the games that are completely unfriendly to casual play that tend to have very limited audiences, stuff like the realistic flight simulators that take hours just to learn how to stay in the air.

 

[Bulla564]

I have still yet to see enough games efficiently use today's many-buttoned controllers.
If anything, today's user interfaces and button mapings in games are generally terrible if not just as bad as they once were. Either you have dead or redundant buttons, too many functions slapped in the wrong places, or just horrible UIs. If anything in games needs a big revamp, it's how they handle these things.
And yes, before someone comes to point out exceptions to this, no shit. I know of a few exceptions, but by now it should be goddamned majority rule on this topic.

What games have you been playing? Very rarely do I come across this.

 

[firex]

I don't really know what to say in this topic, except that there's room for games that are easy to pick up and play, and room for games that are more complex. And there's definitely room for cheaper, shorter games along with the $50-60 big budget games.

Even if all the insane doom and gloom predictions where everything turns into Nintendogs came true, we'd still see the so-called "epic" games come out. Fewer of them would come out, but they'd also probably be higher quality since developers would focus far more on getting them right instead of just making it as pretty as possible.

 

[mckmas8808]

O rly? So why is it that all 3 products have all been hailed as the products with the highest accessability in their class? Windows XP is the easiest version of any operating system, ever, the iPod won the MP3 wars because it was so easy to use, simple, functional, marvellous, and the PS2 became popular because it had games that were easy to pick up and play, the vast majority of PS2s went to casuals with only a few games in mind.

Care to re-think your point?

No. Compared to what you can do with an ipod it is more complicated than a Walkman. Compared to what most people do the PS2 and Dell Computer or everyday good quality laptop is more complicated to use than an Apple II.

But we learn to adapt. That's our human nature kicking in.

 

[Sypher]

What the **** do you want? Protesters telling people not to buy these games? The "hardcore" can't control what others buy. Parents and young kids are always going to buy licensed tripe. It happened way back in the start of video games and it will go on for as long as they exist.
I just can't see your point because it is the consumers who choose what products they want.

Spoiler

yes. along with socialized healthcare

 

[RevenantKioku]

What games have you been playing? Very rarely do I come across this.

Pick one. I may just be very picky, but almost every game I play has some button mapping/UI issue that pisses me off.

 

[Hunahan]

All I know is that this has got to be the best thread title of the year. :lol

 

[segarr]

I'm not arguing preferences -- of course there should be more complex games for folks that enjoy them. The problem is that there's no modern equivalent to more accessible titles like Punch Out! or Tecmo Bowl.

I want people to be able to play these types of games as well. I think that things like Xbox Live Arcade, and the way that Nintendo is providing a lot of their old library, is starting to really catch on and I feel that this is a step in the right direction. I think that by next gen, consoles will really be able to provide that easy experience while continuing to evolve into something a lot more. What I'm arguing is more or less just hypothetical right now...I'm talking about the general direction of gaming. I don't want a Xboymote and Sonymote to go along with a Wiimote.....nor do I want Halo Party or Metal Gear Party. Honestly, I don't want Nintendo to continue on this route either (I just honestly don't think a game experience like Ocarina of Time is going to happen from them again (Relative to whats coming out from other people).

 

[mckmas8808]

Sure, they'd sell like mad. Lowest common denominator shit always does.

And what would that do to gaming? You'd now have this ginormas one game a year buyer population. What do you think the devs would cater to? How many shitty casual 2 button games would be thrown on the shelves since these new gamers are the target buyers? Where would the thrust of development go? Into the casual toilet, like the majority of popcap /yahoo games shit. There would be no need for innovation since that audience just craves the same games over and over.

Some of you think like Nintendo, and not like gamers. I'm all for some fun easy pick up and play games (Katamari, etc) but if the industry shifts like some are saying, it won't be worth a cup to piss in.

I'm loving this guy right now.

Spoiler

no not in that kind of way

You are on point with darn near every point.

 

[mckmas8808]

I think a movie business analogy is in order.

Sure you've got cop outs that optimize the term such as Transformers...movies that were made specifically to make as much money as possible and then you've got artistic films like Munich or Crash, they don't make a ton of money but are they better films? hell yes.

Same situation has already developed in the gaming industry. You've got your Sims and Tycoons but you also get your Mass Effects and MGS4s as well...the two worlds can co-exist because the people making games want to make those epic kinds of games just like directors want to make those artistic films

That's 100% how I see it. So why can't we just say this EA guy doesn't have a great point?

 

[jrricky]

When they have to find it on a controller that looks like this?

Wow, my eyes burn. Is this legit?

Come to think of it, I still havent beaten Zelda since last year. Ill get right on that...later.

 

[Wolves Evolve]

I really like Catz, and I really like Final Fantasy XII, so you guys can cry about it, I'm pretty happy.

 

[Mighty]

I guess only 'hardcore gamers' are responsible for the sales of Madden throughout the years. Casuals are smart enough to figure Madden out.

Shi- where do all of those Madden sales come from...?