Cave Johnson
Member
Wait? What games take more than 1 hour to learn? And more importantly, what EA games take more than 10 minutes to learn? Genuinely curious.
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EA's Chief Creative Officer: our games are still "too hard to learn"
- Thread starter sflufan
- Start date
He's right, so I'm not sure why so many people are up in arms. Right now, too many games are aimed towards very experienced gamers, and so they use mechanics that pose as barriers to entry for newer gamers. If games didn't have so many barriers then it would be easier to draw in new blood.
Battlefield games, for one. There are lots of veteran players out there who still haven't mastered fighter and helicopter controls.
BlastProcessing
Member
All of their sports games for starters. UFC is crazy complex. Madden, FIFA and NHL have suffered from decades of complexity creep. If you play them every year it might not seem like it, but I tried to play Madden after a long time away and it was pretty impenetrable,
I would like for you to name just one that takes 10 minutes or less to learn for someone new to the series.
The Spoony Hou
Member
Sigh.
If someone doesn't want to spend two hours learning a game, that person will either play a game they already know, or watch a movie or something.
There's no need to dumb games down even more.
If someone doesn't want to spend two hours learning a game, that person will either play a game they already know, or watch a movie or something.
There's no need to dumb games down even more.
SeventhSon
Member
SonyToo!;150941795 said:
Skinner Box game design, lovely
Northeastmonk
Gold Member
EA is EA
EA is not the same as they were as Electronic Arts
The thing is, they focus a lot on multiplayer. Multiplayer where you're playing against someone who wants to make the game harder for you. When they focus on single player they make difficulty modes that doesn't take the average person more than a week to finish.
A lot of people are coming out and saying, "oh it's too hard" or "I have to play on easy". I call that BS. The next gen in graphics has made people forget about how a game flows IMO. They make it easier to forget how to "learn a game". Now a days people complain because the game makes them learn. The first thing someone says when the game penalizes them for not playing it right is, "this game sucks". They don't want to play a game because it actually has a game to play. They want freedom to move anyway they want. I think they're looking at this from the perspective of control and the fact that they are almost conjoined by others in the industry (via the social scale). Back before social media wasn't as prevalent you played the game without it being this sliding scale of "is this good for you guys then okay!?".
Their entire sports slogan and studio slogan has and always been "Challenge Everything" or "It's in the game", so there's that too. I blame it all on the production meets a modern audience. They want to keep pushing things, but it's all being put together as this media culture medium. Their game is actually being outdated the moment it ships because they want to make the next installment right after that. I bet the higher ups at EA focus on that because they are running this multi facet company.
I see guys who I knew gamed years ago and they act like they have to look down on it. Play the game and quit looking off to the side because you got penalized. No one wants to fail in a game, but failure is part of the game. What's fun in always winning? Pro status is cool in that regard, but it's not everything. Try being happy about dying once in a while and learn that progression is also fun.
EA is not the same as they were as Electronic Arts
The thing is, they focus a lot on multiplayer. Multiplayer where you're playing against someone who wants to make the game harder for you. When they focus on single player they make difficulty modes that doesn't take the average person more than a week to finish.
A lot of people are coming out and saying, "oh it's too hard" or "I have to play on easy". I call that BS. The next gen in graphics has made people forget about how a game flows IMO. They make it easier to forget how to "learn a game". Now a days people complain because the game makes them learn. The first thing someone says when the game penalizes them for not playing it right is, "this game sucks". They don't want to play a game because it actually has a game to play. They want freedom to move anyway they want. I think they're looking at this from the perspective of control and the fact that they are almost conjoined by others in the industry (via the social scale). Back before social media wasn't as prevalent you played the game without it being this sliding scale of "is this good for you guys then okay!?".
Their entire sports slogan and studio slogan has and always been "Challenge Everything" or "It's in the game", so there's that too. I blame it all on the production meets a modern audience. They want to keep pushing things, but it's all being put together as this media culture medium. Their game is actually being outdated the moment it ships because they want to make the next installment right after that. I bet the higher ups at EA focus on that because they are running this multi facet company.
I see guys who I knew gamed years ago and they act like they have to look down on it. Play the game and quit looking off to the side because you got penalized. No one wants to fail in a game, but failure is part of the game. What's fun in always winning? Pro status is cool in that regard, but it's not everything. Try being happy about dying once in a while and learn that progression is also fun.
Dick Justice
Banned
I'd prefer it if companies didn't cater to the DSPs of this world. But they're the majority, unfortunately. I dunno if it's an act, or if they guy really is just a racist, fraudulent piece of shit who's also dumb as fuck.
I was just talking about this with my brother recently. We grew up with videogames. Starting with really simple controllers and controls and progressively getting more complex. Now days we play PC games with tons of buttons like it's second nature. Younger people or those who didn't start playing games with those simpler controls pickup a controller that has 12+ buttons and have no idea what to do. Those who started gaming on tablets or even the Wii for the most part are at a distinct disadvantage when it comes to playing modern console games.
The solution to the problem shouldn't be making games easier though. I think Rayman Legends and NSMB U do a great job of introducing more complex play via their challenge modes. Instead of a tutorial most people will just skip through making similar challenge modes in other games could teach people to play in a less obvious way that's also fun. FPSs could feature quick 15-30 second objectives that encourage more and more advanced gameplay organically. The training level in CoD 4 was the right idea but maybe a little too long and complex for the newest gamers. Online leaderboards with ghosts can give people both incentive to play and another way to learn.
The solution to the problem shouldn't be making games easier though. I think Rayman Legends and NSMB U do a great job of introducing more complex play via their challenge modes. Instead of a tutorial most people will just skip through making similar challenge modes in other games could teach people to play in a less obvious way that's also fun. FPSs could feature quick 15-30 second objectives that encourage more and more advanced gameplay organically. The training level in CoD 4 was the right idea but maybe a little too long and complex for the newest gamers. Online leaderboards with ghosts can give people both incentive to play and another way to learn.
Northeastmonk
Gold Member
There's a saying going around (has been) that goes: "Everything is a clone"
Even though you can't get down the RTS, the shooter, or something else doesn't mean you are this noob to the culture. If I suck in CoD I can go back and spot land perfect jumps in Mario. I can go play other games that aren't competitive and I'm just fine.
AI in single player games and so forth gets bashed on because it's not the human element, but it takes a human to get better at most multiplayer games. Fighting games are a testament to that. You can play a game if you sit down with the controls for a while, but you aren't going to MASTER them. Why not take time? Why not have fun knowing there's more buttons to press when a game isn't a side scroller or something you always have to push. Most games in this last gen literally took the FPS control scheme and applied it to every other game that came out. They literally copy and paste the controls. Don't get me wrong, but its also noticeable. Even if you suck (like I do at most MP games) you can still be a boss in the arcade mode, against bots, or a random match online. Don't look down on yourself because you "grew up playing games". If you can kill a Zelda boss or an enemy in Video Game A or B you're fine. You have to put the multiplayer aspect aside when things start to suck like that.
Somedays I play one match of CoD and it sucks. I wont go back for a while because I finished the game. I beat it. There's no reason to sit there sucking when I could play another game and do just fine. I wouldn't limit yourself because MP can be a pain in the you know what sometimes.
It takes me back to H2 and guys my age were talking about taking adderall to help them play. That type of MP sucks and it's not even fun. I've owned and will own a lot of MP games, but they sometimes suck. They're sometimes the last thing I want to play after the "good guys get their turn". It's fun for a while, but that's just a "thing" anymore. Play it until it sucks.
I'll bite.
Of the games published by EA last year for consoles..
Dragon Age: Inquisition - Definitely
UFC - Definitely
Fifa 15 - Definitely
Madden 15 - Definitely
NBA 15 - Who'd want to but I'm guessing so
NHL 15 - Yep
Plants vs. Zombies Garden Warfare - Yep
The Sims 4 - Probably less so than the others as you can play at your own speed. But still pretty intimidating for new players.
Titanfall - Definitely
No one is pushing for all EA titles to become slot machines. What would be good though is if they had a range of titles that better accommodated new players with simpler control styles. I'd love to be able to play Fifa with my girlfriend if they added a control scheme that allowed her to be competent at the game without putting in an unenjoyable slog.
Cave Johnson
Member
Nonsense. Helicopters and Fighter planes don't have a high player ratio because they are extremely limited and never got the chance to experiement. That's the signifanct difference between the old battlefield games and the new. You always have enough space and planes to experiment all the way through yet games like BF3 makes it very difficult to secure a plane, let alone play it.
Northeastmonk
Gold Member
More games should have the handicap option then. Have a handicap control scheme and just limit its usage. Fighting games did it, but I don't think too many people figured it out unless they bought the game. It was called "Automatic".
It's still soccer. You have to run and kick a ball either way.
DA:I
For a lot of people the difficulty of modern games comes down to being unfamiliar with the controls. They don't even get to the point were they're actually having trouble with the gameplay. If they just play until it sucks they'll never get comfortable with them. You throw the average person in the deep end they'll usually sink. If you've played the NSMB U challenge mode you'll see they break the game down to a basic level of play and slowly build from there adding in more complexity and difficulty as you progress. It smooths the learning curve allowing a much more gradual approach to higher level play that doesn't immediately turn people off.
When you watch people who are unfamiliar with console gaming try to play an FPS/TPS they have difficulty with the most basic interactions. Then you start asking them to keep an eye on the mini-map, start memorizing each map, watch the other players and learn their behaviors, etc. It's a completely overwhelming experience. An arcade style mode that started with simple aiming challenges and progressed through things like traversal and navigation while adding in more and more complex tasks would go a long way towards teaching more advanced play to beginners. AI bots on their own won't help completely new players but slowly introducing them to the basics of game play in the guise of a challenge mode would help them build the skills they need in order to not feel completely overwhelmed in the regular SP and MP modes.
BlastProcessing
Member
Again, it's not about dumbing games down to one button. It's about finding a middle ground between one button and this:
Eppy Thatcher
God's had his chance.
Who in the blue fuck takes 2 hours to "learn" how to play a game these days? My daughter picks stuff up faster than that, shit.
Northeastmonk
Gold Member
It's either being nervous or over confident in performance. I totally agree that some new players may feel like they're being thrown into a stage where they will get eaten up and spat out. Sometimes it's also the player who doesn't want to keep up with it either or someone else is just making fun of them by using tactics against them. No one can really aim for you or complete a level if you aren't assisted with an option or a tool even. Some people also don't want to lose. They'd rather win or give up, which comes down to being impatient. Now a days you can go online and see someone playing Dark Souls or a brand new game like a lot of us and have zero problems with it. What's that teaching someone who is learning progression? It doesn't necessarily teach them how to get good at it. It's just showing them you press this and do this. Maybe they need to manually do all the work before they get prepped and are shown what to do. People like to fly through menus, wave dash, etc etc. I think that could turn somebody off right there if they want to feel empowered by all this.
Imagine a boxing game where a boyfriend or girlfriend jumps in and they know they can press X or Y to swing. That's all they'll use and they'll ignore the rest of the control scheme. I've witnessed it before in games like DBZ on PS2 with an old ex girlfriend. They'll focus on that one button until I learn how to get past it. Once that happens that's it, we've finished playing for the day.
Yep, sounds like a great idea. Things like when the beginner gets the ball, the game stops and lets them choose what to do so they can get used to the controls without the pressure of a live match.
Seems like a pretty easy thing to implement and opens the game up to a much wider audience. I assume those sort of features are what EA is looking to bring in.
Well the dude's not wrong. Console games today are like a foreign language that a select group of people decided to start developing 30 years ago, and now almost nobody new can break into it. That's why Nintendo made the Wii.
That said, the problem isn't with game mechanics, but controls. I think most adults can learn complex game mechanics. Most adults can probably learn a new sport or a new board game perfectly fine because the only barrier between their brain and an analog game is their hands and feet. In console games though you have to figure out what each button does and how to simply operate the interface before actually learning the game rules. This is where people who haven't been playing games for 20 years get caught up.
That said, the problem isn't with game mechanics, but controls. I think most adults can learn complex game mechanics. Most adults can probably learn a new sport or a new board game perfectly fine because the only barrier between their brain and an analog game is their hands and feet. In console games though you have to figure out what each button does and how to simply operate the interface before actually learning the game rules. This is where people who haven't been playing games for 20 years get caught up.
Thats crazy man. Manuals were the shit back in the day. We all brought them to school. They wouldnt let you play a gameboy without taking it, but you could bring all the game manuals you had.
Slacking off in classes reading them and drawing characters out of them and whatnot, lol.
It's easy to immediately react to this in dismay, but I think there is truth to it with their sports titles.
FIFA certainly isn't an easy game to pick up. The control list has grown towards fighter proportions, and there isn't much correlation between what works in real life and what works in FIFA. Even if you understand football very well, and even once you get a grasp of the basic controls (which are quite simple), you have to 'learn' FIFA. There is a knack to certain mechanics that cannot really be explained or even taught, particularly things like tackling and aerial play.
Of course, the grand contradiction is that, it's not an especially deep game when you get down to it. The controls allow you to do a vast range of things but very few are necessary to play near optimally, and quite a lot of the things you can do just don't work that well (shielding, despite being a 'new feature' in FIFA 14 hasn't really worked for three+ years). The game's balance is such that repeating the same plays over and over is most effective, and while the exact formula changes year to year - dribbling is overpowered in FIFA 15, heading was in FIFA 14 - the basic plan doesn't: Defend deep, press heavily, attack fast, and play the killer pass over and over until it comes off.
FIFA isn't easy to play, nor hard to master. There is a steep learning curve initially, but it gives way to a plateau.
FIFA certainly isn't an easy game to pick up. The control list has grown towards fighter proportions, and there isn't much correlation between what works in real life and what works in FIFA. Even if you understand football very well, and even once you get a grasp of the basic controls (which are quite simple), you have to 'learn' FIFA. There is a knack to certain mechanics that cannot really be explained or even taught, particularly things like tackling and aerial play.
Of course, the grand contradiction is that, it's not an especially deep game when you get down to it. The controls allow you to do a vast range of things but very few are necessary to play near optimally, and quite a lot of the things you can do just don't work that well (shielding, despite being a 'new feature' in FIFA 14 hasn't really worked for three+ years). The game's balance is such that repeating the same plays over and over is most effective, and while the exact formula changes year to year - dribbling is overpowered in FIFA 15, heading was in FIFA 14 - the basic plan doesn't: Defend deep, press heavily, attack fast, and play the killer pass over and over until it comes off.
FIFA isn't easy to play, nor hard to master. There is a steep learning curve initially, but it gives way to a plateau.
As for tutorials, I really miss "free-range" tutorials. Y'know how some games would just let you mess around in a starting area or something, practicing the controls and actions at your own pace? Wave Race 64 is the best example I can think of. Maybe the hub areas of the 3D Mario games are good examples too. I think more modern games should do that -- just give you a space where you can't die or anything and you can learn the game at your own pace.
Of course that's the kind of tutorial best suited for a hands-on learner, and everyone isn't a hands-on learner. Some people prefer to sit back and listen, and those people are who tutorials are aimed at these days. Game tutorials should do a better job of accommodating multiple learning styles.
Of course that's the kind of tutorial best suited for a hands-on learner, and everyone isn't a hands-on learner. Some people prefer to sit back and listen, and those people are who tutorials are aimed at these days. Game tutorials should do a better job of accommodating multiple learning styles.
bigdaddygamebot
Member
I love this direction they are taking. It will be fantastic to see them lose even more marketshare.
Fifa with normal controls is pretty simple full manual is a challenge at all times. You realize the game did all the work for you. Sad less than 5% play that way.
Prototype Viktor
Member
So that's why Westwood doesn't exist now
I love the fact that you picked the manual for skyward sword.If only there were some sort of printed/typed media that we could put in the box/add in the game... Like some sort of manual or something.... I feel like this has been done before, though...
I don't know what'd be funnier: if you did it on purpose or if it was just a coincidence you picked the zelda game which is infamous for its heavy use of in game hand holding.
They should just come out and admit they want to make movies but charge video game prices for them.
That's what they ultimately want.
God, if you gave them a game from the PS1/N64 era they might have an aneurysm.
akidnamededdy
Banned
It's like they understand that Ubi ran away with Worst Game Company last year and are coming out swingin'.
yiepekaiyei
Banned
You know, you know this medium is fucked when you see people actually defending this kind of practice. That's why we have worst games nowadays. Because people just swallow anything without questioning now.
This is great. Goddamn DSP. Although there should be burp somewhere in between there.
This is a generation where people think the Souls games (As awesome as they are) are impossibly hard games that only the toughest of the tough can beat.
Our games aren't hard enough.
And I refuse to believe it would take even a casual gamer 2 whole hours to learn the basic controls of a game.
Our games aren't hard enough.
And I refuse to believe it would take even a casual gamer 2 whole hours to learn the basic controls of a game.
JesseEwiak
Member
Indeed. EA doesn't care about making a game that appeals to a million or so hardcore gamers. EA cares about making games that appeal to tens of millions of people across the globe.
Nealand Liquor
Member
Oh wow, could you imagine if this new crop of gamers grew up in the NES days?
Phew, full blown meltdowns!
Phew, full blown meltdowns!
JesseEwiak
Member
Hate to break this to you, but most people never finished Super Mario Brothers and didn't buy another NES game. The fact you finished Mario Brothers and played another NES game make you a minority, even among people who bought the NES.
The previous generation weren't special.
I can understand the sentiment. The majority of people seem to like controls on the slightly simple side. I wouldn't be surprised if they get complaints that control schemes are too complex or hard to pick up. Admittedly, I once tried a demo for an NHL game and the tutorial stopped me from wanting to get too into it. Granted, I was never big on NHL anyways.
BlastProcessing
Member
I look at the list of best selling NES games and I would say that the vast majority were extremely easy to learn. The top 5 are all dead simple and are all amazing games.
2D games are far simpler to orient yourself in. The controller had way less buttons. The NES generations success supports this guys argument.
If you were around during that gen, I am sure you know people you know who fell out of gaming as it grew more complex that would be completely lost if you plopped them down in front of Dragon Age.
Would love to hear why you think making it easier for new players to pick up a game is such a terrible thing, rather than just insulting those who do.
Also would love to hear your list of old games that are more complex and therefore "better" than what we have today. Because I can tell you now, sports games (the majority of EA's releases) were far simpler in the old days.
Compsiox
Banned
I have only been playing for a month and I mastered both. Like literally. I fly around the map the whole time spawning teammates onto capture points. Every time I drop people off I have a very nice landing.
toddhunter
Member
Mass effect 1, Dead space 1, dragon age origins.
Your move.
Dumbing these games down so much has made them sell more to a different audience. Meanwhile fans of the original games are left with less enjoyable games to play.
While it is easy then to point out EA is making people happy, they could also sell energy drinks, make even more money and their product would be more complex because there is no one button to automatically open the can.
BlastProcessing
Member
Not really going back that far, but I would argue that all of those games are mechanically simpler than their sequels which all suffer from complexity creep.
Northeastmonk
Gold Member
What made me mad was the bias against a controller vs. a keyboard/mouse. I met some PC only people and they stuck to RTS, FPS, and MMOs. I wasn't against it at first because I grew up around a select amount of PC games and I enjoyed what I enjoyed. The thing that got me furious about it all was the fact that they couldn't play with a controller. I knew what keys to press on a keyboard, so it was annoying that I would get buttons pressed for me. I can press "I" for inventory, etc, etc. I didn't like knowing that my views were disliked even though I see nothing wrong with a controller. It was hard for them though. They could hot key games like MMOs and so forth, but it was like a second delay because I have to check which key. I don't necessarily understand the point to hating consoles because of a controller. It's like bread and butter for me with video games. I used KB/M with Mass Effect, Dead Space 3, and etc. The main problem was these people were never going to go back to a controller. They ditched consoles and who knows if that's because they couldn't play MP with a controller or not. It was the first time I came across people who felt that way. I was use to playing console games with friends (Halo, jrpgs, etc) and then going to the arcade (Tekken, etc). We loved picking up light guns and new controllers all the time. It made me use my PC less for games and caused me to dislike playing a few relative PC games. I have quite a few PC games from many years ago and to this day even. I just know that a few people aren't playing their console counterpart or they chose a specific "game" (even) due to the fact that it was or wasn't on PC. I couldn't do that personally. I don't give up playing games because of that either (for the most part). I guess a lot of people see a genre and stick with it too. BF and an MMO were this groups main games and now I don't even want to install it or try a new BF for a while or an MMO. For one the recoil on PC felt different because I was using a mouse, so I guess I shouldn't blame it all on someone else. The main point was that we didn't care for each other's taste and they wanted nothing more to do with next gen or games on a serious level (industry, up and coming, etc, etc). I've met console gamers who gave up for good because that was their choice, but still. The complaint over difficulty, control, and their learning curve is beyond me. I'll accept a game if I can make progress in it period and if I enjoy it.
This is hilarious, but probably offensive to the people in the industry. I've had bad days where I've felt like this. I think it comes with being re-introduced to something you're familiar with, but you aren't necessarily pleased with returning to it. It's never been a problem in the last 20+ years, but it definitely shines through when you don't necessarily want to catch on again. A lot of games want you to catch on to their style quick. For example; "Pick up the ammo" and I'm like "Menu, exit game, what else is there?"
This is hilarious, but probably offensive to the people in the industry. I've had bad days where I've felt like this. I think it comes with being re-introduced to something you're familiar with, but you aren't necessarily pleased with returning to it. It's never been a problem in the last 20+ years, but it definitely shines through when you don't necessarily want to catch on again. A lot of games want you to catch on to their style quick. For example; "Pick up the ammo" and I'm like "Menu, exit game, what else is there?"
toddhunter
Member
It would be a pretty poor argument.
Dead space went from shooting limbs to one shot body kills
Mass effect went from a rpg with shooting to a straight shooter.
Dragon age went from a rpg to a mobile f2p game.
You can go back further to see what EA did to a series like Ultima. Tell me Ultima 9 didnt end up terribly with a straight face.
Northeastmonk
Gold Member
They're simple actions that have no soul.
They feel like they were added because "that's how it's done in action games".
Dead Space 3 felt like I was playing big brother's version of Dead Space. If it's for the other audience then I'm not included because they set you up with all their tones, tutorials, and what not. They should try laying off a few things before doing that massive change.
If you genuinely believe Mass Effect 2 or 3, Dragon Age: Inquisition, Dead Space 2 etc. are games that are easy to learn, you're not understanding the point the EA executive is making at all.
If you personally found them weaker games, fair enough, although there are plenty of people who disagree with you. That has nothing to do with making them accessible to new gamers.
Also I have no idea what your last paragraph is trying to say. You think EA shouldn't be trying to make people happy as an entertainment company? Or are you genuinely implying Fifa 15 is less complicated than opening a can?