Meccanical
Member
Doing nothing?
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EDGE: 'FFXII, a bold game stuck between brilliant reinvention and tragic failure'
- Thread starter ezekial45
- Start date
Doing nothing?
Deadly Monk
Banned
What issue is this from? I want to read it in print
Vane_MagicCity
Banned
You can love games on the Wii but hate the Wiimote. Some people hated the Sixaxis, some people hate the DS3 and some people (I am sure) hate the 360 controller.
I second this! FF12 is such a great game and one of the few games I try to replay every once in a awhile.
That's how you bring the haters into the fold.......by fucking them!!!
devious.one
Member
Everything except for Vaan was amazing... The amount of fun/time I spent doing monster hunts and implementing my own strategies (Marlboro hunt, Fafnir hunt) couldn't be matched by any games I had played that year.
As I mentioned in a different topic, it's among one of the games I still play annually. And I still haven't played the international version...
Edit-- I think a lot of people attacking the gambit system either must have A) Never attempted some of the harder monster hunts or B) Over leveled like so many people tend to do (and ruin the game).
As I mentioned in a different topic, it's among one of the games I still play annually. And I still haven't played the international version...
Edit-- I think a lot of people attacking the gambit system either must have A) Never attempted some of the harder monster hunts or B) Over leveled like so many people tend to do (and ruin the game).
darkistheway
Member
Well, ok, if your theory is that people expected FFX-2 (well, -3) then they would have been disappointed/disoriented. I came in expecting what every FF has been - a evolutionary re-invention of the gameplay mechanics and I was rewarded with an extremely deep battle system, and an amazing world to explore.
I loved the game from the moment I started and it is still one I return to.
legacyzero
Banned
I actually did own a Wii, but with my 55 inch TV, and the 480p, I got constant headaches, and sometimes nausea. It was all a blurry mess. I got toward the end of Twilight Princess, and that was about the time I gave up.
I'm thinking about emulation, but I hear it's a pain in the ass to setup.
MagiusNecros
Gilgamesh Fan Annoyance
The Zodiac Job System – There are now 12 License Boards, each one representing a job. Once a character chooses a job however, they are stuck with it throughout the entire game. Isolated licenses can be accessed by unlocking Espers and Quickenings.
Trial Mode – The party must fight through 100 stages, each one containing stronger monsters. Completing this mode unlocks New Game+: Weak Mode.
Controllable Guests – Guest characters can now be controlled, and their gambits can be edited. Their equipment cannot be removed.
Controllable Espers – Espers can now be controlled once summoned, and their gambits can be edited. The player can use their ultimate attack at will.
Speed Boost – Pressing the L1 button speeds up the game, making getting around easier. The music still plays at normal speed.
Gambit Changes – There are 16 new gambits. All the gambits can be bought upon leaving Barheim Passage.
Item Changes – New items have been added, and some of their effects have been slightly changed.
Enemy Changes – Enemies have been changed slightly, plus new enemies have been added. A battle against all five Judge Magisters is also included.
Magick Changes – Water and Watera are renamed to Aqua and Aquara. Many spells have been re-categorized; Bravery and Faith are now White Magick for example. Cure and all tier 1 Black Magick elemental spells have an area of effect (same as their higher tier counterpart) instead of targeting only 1 unit. Not all magick can be bought, and some must be found in treasure chests.
Equipment Changes – New weapons have been added, like the Excalipoor, while others have been slightly changed. Armor and accessories have also been slightly changed. Some weapons have different elemental alignments.
Shop Listings – Some shops have had their inventory changed.
Hunt Reward Changes - Rewards for defeating Marks have slightly changed.
Mist Knack (Quickening) Changes – Mist knacks no longer take up MP. Instead, they have their own Mist gauge.
MP Changes – Since Mist Knacks do not use MP now, obtaining Mist Knacks does not increase MP. Instead, characters simply get more MP as they level up. Max MP is determined by the character's job.
New Game+ – Two New Game+ modes are available. Strong Mode, where all characters begin at level 90, and Weak Mode, where all characters begin at level 1 and never level up. Nothing carries over into these new save files.
Treasure Re-spawns – Treasures pots now respawn by just moving one screen away.
Treasure Item Changes - Some items inside coffers have been switched around, added, or removed.
Break Damage Limit – There is no damage limit anymore. If a character does more than 9,999 damage, the game will show it. Against weak enemies, it is possible to achieve over 100,000 HP of damage with a single attack. This gives the strongest magick spells greater potency to rival melee attack with high hit combo.
Source: Wikipedia(the basic information is accurate)
If by "fleshed out" you mean dropping a bunch of plot revelations in the span of a couple of minutes, then yeah. I just feel he was such wasted potential as a character. He just lets out the fact that he was a Judge and then they never go back to that plot thread.
I was not a fan in any sense. I couldn't stand that the game was pushing me towards not actually having any input durring battle, I felt like I wasn't playing it the way I was supposed to if I wasn't putting all my time into the gambits, and I don't care what anyone says about Vaan not being the main character, the game opens with his brother and I am forced to play him the first 5 hours, and then he just gets less and less lines until he has no input into anything. It just felt broken, all of it.
Neko Mimi Mode
Member
Get on that right now.
Werewolf Jones
Member
I played it back when it was first released in Europe in 2007 and poured easily 70 hours into it but I didn't really have any connection to the world or characters whatsoever, I don't even recall any of the music. Thinking about giving it another chance because I never finished it and I still don't understand the proclamation that it's the "best" FF. Although its development history and the ideas/scope for the project Matsuno had intrigue me it all seems to be wasted.
I really didn't care for this game. Not because of it being a huge departure from what the earlier ones were, but because the combat system felt half complete to me. Your positioning during combat didn't really matter, so it felt like this weird bastardized ATB/MMO hybrid. Add the mess of a story due to Square Enix's interference and it fell really flat all around in my opinion.
Karsticles
Member
Ah, I can respect that. I went from a 27" to a 52" and was like "Wow, this hurts to look at". If you own the game still, I know plenty of people in the Xenoblade thread play it on Dolphin and could help you set it up. It's not something I have any experience with, since my computer sucks.
Then don't use a Wii Remote. I never use mine. I also never use my Wii U's Gamepad. I have a lovely Classic Controller Pro that I play everything on unless it requires pointer controls (Okami), and then I find the Wii Remote enjoyable and justifiable.
Let me rephrase, then: I can understand not liking a console's features, but would any of those prevent you from buying it for great games? That was my boggle.
DR2K
Banned
I hated 12 when it first came out. Truly bad on all fronts, as my tastes matured and the systems started clicking with me I grew to enjoy it. FFX is still the high point of the series and X2 has the best battle system, but 12 just felt more unique and fresh. Hopefully it gets an HD int release.
FFXII is imo the second best FF game (VI being my favourite). IMO the only fault the game had was how to me the story sort of increasingly fell apart as the game went on; I wish RPG moved in this direction. Then Xenoblade Chronicles came and improved on FFXII in pretty much every way.
Yeah, positional combat in Xenoblade does make even the standard encounters more interesting, as you need your other party members to draw attention so you can make the most of certain techniques that work far better by attacking from the side or rear.
Vane_MagicCity
Banned
Sounds pointless if you don't carry anything over to the new game.
Baller. PhD
Banned
FFXII is best FF. Especially after the train wreck that was FFX.
What I wouldn't give for FFXII HD on PS3/Vita.
What I wouldn't give for FFXII HD on PS3/Vita.
devious.one
Member
Very much mattered later in the game due to Breathe attacks, Tail Whips etc.
Yeah that was an improvement they, sadly they didn't go all the way. It really needed the ability to actively dodge/block attacks as well.
Vane_MagicCity
Banned
Well, the ATB was used from Final Fantasy IV to Final Fantasy IX. It really isn't far fetched for people to expect a battle system similar to X or X-2 (depending on if they played X-2). X-2 is a game that I still haven't been able to get into.
eXistor
Member
One of the best games in the series and it didn't even feel like a FF. After the very disappointing X, this was such a breath of fresh air. I didn't care for the story at all, but to me that's the least important part anyway. I loved the world and the battle-system. It also has by far the best dungeons in the series (except for a few shitty ones that is). I recognise its problems, but the game overcomes them easily by being so goddamn good in other places.
Then defend why bows have an invisible miss chance based on weather conditions. Why is the overall level of enemy interaction and required strategy significantly less than in late-SNES and early-PS1 era JRPGs? Why are there entire zones with only three kinds of enemy in them?
FF XII is still a game where you can beat everything with just basic attacks and the occasional attack spell of the right element. It doesn't require any more sophisticated strategy than any of the games you are bashing. The only thing it does is make the game too awkward to run manually, mandating that you program the AI for your allies so they can keep up. What is more, the limits on the gambit system (you need to buy gambits and can't save gambit set-ups) make using it a pain.
The random enemies and boss fights in FF V were leagues more complicated when it came to strategy than anything in FF XII. The most interesting the bosses in XII get is a few bosses that artificially limit the player's already anemic options.
Gambit system or not, Final Fantasy XII has a significantly reduced number of options and strategies available to the player compared to many better RPGs. There is a significantly reduced amount of interesting interaction with enemies as well. Right now I am playing Breath of Fire 3 again, and it has far more interesting abilities than anything in Final Fantasy XII and you actually have to pay attention to your strategy when dealing with regular enemies, since many of them have dangerous powers of their own you need to watch out for and plan for. Yet, I would hardly call Breath of Fire 3 a pinnacle of its genre. That degree of available options and interesting depth to combat is the presumed baseline established by greats such as Chrono Trigger. Final Fantasy XII falls far short of that baseline.
I would much rather play a game with interesting strategic depth than one that presumes all combat is tedium and tries to make that tedium automatic.
ViewtifulJC
Banned
Huh, just yesterday I was looking at Edge's Top 100 Games to play today. FF12 is at #25, the only 3D FF, and the highest ranked JRPG on the list.
It's funny how divisive that game turned out to be, real love it or hate it type of thing
It's funny how divisive that game turned out to be, real love it or hate it type of thing
Meccanical
Member
It should have mattered in the whole game not just late game hunts.
H_Prestige
Banned
I used to love FFXII, but I agree with this post. The combat is nothing special. The growth system with the license board was also phoned in. It really did feel like the devs just said "you know what, jrpg systems are fucking stupid, let's streamline this shit as much as possible so it doesn't get in the way of the player". That's either good or bad depending on how you look at it.
Incendiary
Banned
FFXII was a game ahead of its time.
I've only finished it this year, after playing Xenoblade. I had played it back when it launched, but couldn't really enjoy the game - it was too diferent, and not enough Final Fantasy. Even the soundtrack, amazing as it was, was nothing like previous FF - except Tactics, and Vagrant Story, if it counts as FF game.
I agree that I would enjoyed the game more if it had another name, wich is kinda stupid, really... Now, after having played Xenoblade, and before that, some MMOs, I enjoy FFXII much more, and think that is a truly great game. I now enjoy the battle system much more, and the game has perhaps the best architecture I've seen in a videogame - the world really feels alive and culturaly diverse. About the characters, I still hate Vaan, but after playing FFXIII, I've understand that things could have been worse...
I really hope that Square Enix will give this game the FFX/X-2 treatment, and launches the game on the Vita.
I've only finished it this year, after playing Xenoblade. I had played it back when it launched, but couldn't really enjoy the game - it was too diferent, and not enough Final Fantasy. Even the soundtrack, amazing as it was, was nothing like previous FF - except Tactics, and Vagrant Story, if it counts as FF game.
I agree that I would enjoyed the game more if it had another name, wich is kinda stupid, really... Now, after having played Xenoblade, and before that, some MMOs, I enjoy FFXII much more, and think that is a truly great game. I now enjoy the battle system much more, and the game has perhaps the best architecture I've seen in a videogame - the world really feels alive and culturaly diverse. About the characters, I still hate Vaan, but after playing FFXIII, I've understand that things could have been worse...
I really hope that Square Enix will give this game the FFX/X-2 treatment, and launches the game on the Vita.
If to you the 'series declining' is 'more games like FF13' then your argument falls flat because FFX did FF13 before FF13, just with more towns and the ability to go back where you wanted to.
No world map, few towns, straight-line dungeons and fields.
Much like 13-2, X-2 was much more lenient in a lot of things, giving you options to go where you wanted more immediately.
FF12... had non-linear open fields, non-linear gameplay, a world that actually felt alive and a decent story and lore that tied it all together. In a way it does mark the 'decline of the series': because there hasn't been a FF that's lived up to FF12's ridiculously shining example of what jRPGs need more of.
devious.one
Member
I'm also a bit shocked to hear this, I knew there was a fan translation but from what I remembered it was always half did.
FFXII is the perfect example of a flawed masterpiece. Loved it despite the plot taking a massive dive in the second half. Too bad we couldn't get to see Matsuno's full vision on display. It's most definitely the best of the 3D Final Fantasies, Squeeshit not adapting Matsuno's ideas for the franchise is a real goddamn shame. You idiots.
Neko Mimi Mode
Member
Nope. It merges the US version with IZJS so you get the latter with the former's dialogue. A few bits have been fanlated but it's tiny.
You NEED to play it.
I think you forget how 90% of the battles in earlier Final Fantasies played out.
The only change FFXII made in that regard was replacing hammering A/X/O during non-boss encounters with you having the option to automate that shit.
I yawned.
I feel like XII and XIII should have been made an released in reverse order. That way, XIII (or XII in this case) whould've felt like a logical iteration on X and X-2, and XII (or XIII in this case), as the first Final Fantasy of a new console generation, might've been appreciated as the revolution the franchise needed.
What amazes me about XII is that from what I've seen in dev diaries, it's the only FF game where the creators asked the question "Why don't some people like FF? And how can we change that?" and actually implemented changes in a way that didn't dumb down the game.
Which I think is still a massive improvement, and you could STILL have the game pause whenever you want to make decisions like an Infinity Engine game. It was more or less the best of both worlds in regards to turn-based and real time combat.
What amazes me about XII is that from what I've seen in dev diaries, it's the only FF game where the creators asked the question "Why don't some people like FF? And how can we change that?" and actually implemented changes in a way that didn't dumb down the game.
Which I think is still a massive improvement, and you could STILL have the game pause whenever you want to make decisions like an Infinity Engine game. It was more or less the best of both worlds in regards to turn-based and real time combat.
legacyzero
Banned
Oh, and lets not forget how damn beautiful the game is.
These are from jediyoshi from the PCSX2 thread.
These are from jediyoshi from the PCSX2 thread.
Baller. PhD
Banned
I've always thought that the plot taking a dump just meant it sunk to the level of regular FF plot.
BTW, Square's method of focusing on texturing instead of geometry means this game is going to always hold up, IMO. Playing it in PCSX2 is like, jesuswow.
H_Prestige
Banned
Most boss encounters were no different than regular enemies in FFXII. They just had a lot more health and had one or two special "cinematic" moves.
I remember in older games the bosses at least put some pressure on you and forced you to change things up.
Correctomundo
Member
I shivered. Love the FF12 score.
Shoot, kind of want to install PCSX2 and try playing this in HD now. Valkyrie Profile 2 ought to look just as amazing.
The problem with FFXII when it first came out was that it was basically "Final Fantasy for people who don't like Final Fantasy." Also, they tried to revolutionize the series at a time when fans didn't think it was broken. Imagine if XII (or the game that brought the same changes as XII under a different number) had come out in the middle of this gen while FF fans are pissed off at the series.
Neko Mimi Mode
Member
You should, it runs very well in PCSX2 and looks amazing if you're willing to spend the time tinkering with the settings. Use it as an excuse to play International Zodiac Job System.