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[AFreak]

There are systematic differences between people's game buying/playing habits. This means that people don't buy random games and there are correlations in probabilities of the same person buying/playing different games. People who own GTA are probably more likely to own CoD than a fashion game for the DS for example. This means that there are groups of people with similar buying/playing habits. You could give the title of "hardcore" to one of these groups, it's just a name Of course the "elitism" associated with the word is stupid, but it doesn't mean the word can have no meaning.

Agreed. What I was trying to get at, but in much better words.

 

[AFreak]

So if I we polled people who purchased World of Warcraft or Super Mario Bros., they'd have in their game collections relatively similar titles?

Most likely. They wouldn't have the exact same titles, but they'd be roughly around the same. Think about, you like most of your friends for what you have in common, do your friends play the exact same games as you? Probably not, but they must play something that resonates with your tastes enough that you hang out and game with them. While it may not be Super Mario Galaxy that another person owns, Ratchet and Clank is in close enough proximity to categorize that both of you enjoy platformers.

 

[Josh7289]

Good times. Gaming is a mass market medium now, enjoyed by all.

Got your enthusiasts, 'casuals', experimental stuff, indie all over.

Good times for all.

 

[Vinci]

Most likely. They wouldn't have the exact same titles, but they'd be roughly around the same. Think about, you like most of your friends for what you have in common, do your friends play the exact same games as you? Probably not, but they must play something that resonates with your tastes enough that you hang out and game with them. While it may not be Super Mario Galaxy that another person owns, Ratchet and Clank is in close enough proximity to categorize that both of you enjoy platformers.

And that's fine in a general sense. My issue with this assumption is that for titles like World of Warcraft and Super Mario Bros., I highly doubt there's as much overlap between players' game libraries. Seems very unlikely given the expansive demographics that are attracted to them.

I agree with you for the most part, but I feel there are games that heavily skew this assumption to the point of being not applicable. Tetris is likely another example.

 

[Flachmatuch]

So if I we polled people who purchased World of Warcraft or Super Mario Bros., they'd have in their game collections relatively similar titles?

Think of it from the other end: if you could form no groups, it would mean that anyone has the exact same probability of owning any game as anyone else.

And that's fine in a general sense. My issue with this assumption is that for titles like World of Warcraft and Super Mario Bros., I highly doubt there's as much overlap between players' game libraries. Seems very unlikely given the expansive demographics that are attracted to them.

I agree with you for the most part, but I feel there are games that heavily skew this assumption to the point of being not applicable. Tetris is likely another example.

That's just a question of how much "information" owning a game contains. Mario and WoW have super wide appeal so they contain a lot less information, of course you can't base any calculations on them.

 

[Vinci]

Think of it from the other end: if you could form no groups, it would mean that anyone has the exact same probability of owning any game as anyone else.

I'm not suggesting that no groups exist, but I believe this line of thinking goes hand-in-hand with 3rd parties complaining about how hard it is to sell on the Wii since its audience is hard to understand, meanwhile Nintendo belts out one multi-million seller after another.

Apparently, this overlap only really impacts games of certain types and not all games. Games that are specifically made to appeal to 'everyone' would doubtlessly belong to people with wildly differently tastes outside of that game.

 

[Flachmatuch]

I'm not suggesting that no groups exist, but I believe this line of thinking goes hand-in-hand with 3rd parties complaining about how hard it is to sell on the Wii since its audience is hard to understand, meanwhile Nintendo belts out one multi-million seller after another.

Absolutely. I completely dislike this way of thinking, but this seems to be how a lot of games are designed today. I always link to this article...I think it's quite disgusting And of course trusting statistics over developer intuition and creativity does not work in the long run.

Apparently, this overlap only really impacts games of certain types and not all games. Games that are specifically made to appeal to 'everyone' would doubtlessly belong to people with wildly differently tastes outside of that game.

The point is, there are probably a few easily recognisable groups to which the majority of people who buy games belong. Maybe some people belong to more than one group, and maybe some people can't really be assigned to any, but that often doesn't matter if you know the groups you're targetting.

 

[Walshicus]

She is so hot.

Um, she's a good looking woman I guess but "hot" is hyperbole.

 

[A Twisty Fluken]

Um, she's a good looking woman I guess but "hot" is hyperbole.

no, with utada, it most certainly is not

 

[Vinci]

no, with utada, it most certainly is not

Talent definitely benefits her appeal though. If a person is unaware of who she is, I can understand them feeling she's good looking but not necessarily hot.

EDIT, On-Topic: Keep the consoles around a while. Still more room to milk them.

 

[AFreak]

A cute girl=hot to me. Always been like that. But yeah, I spent 500 on ym PS3(and have gotten a lot out of it), but I want to use it for at least 6 years before we even hear about PS4)

 

[K' Dash]

I agree. If MS and Sony think that releasing motion control casual games and no major horsepower updates are going to get them huge profits, they are setting up for an epic fail.

It is going to be very hard to convince a casual that they need to spend another couple hundred bucks to get waggle bowling 2.0.

mmmm, this sounds familiar, let's replace the words MS and Sony.

I agree. If Nintendo think that releasing motion control casual games and no major horsepower updates are going to get them huge profits, they are setting up for an epic fail.

It is going to be very hard to convince a casual that they need to spend another couple hundred bucks to get waggle bowling 2.0.

Yeah, very familiar.

 

[Ysiadmihi]

mmmm, this sounds familiar, let's replace the words MS and Sony.



Yeah, very familiar.

So because Nintendo succeeded, Microsoft and Sony will too. Brilliant.

 

[K' Dash]

So because Nintendo succeeded, Microsoft and Sony will too. Brilliant.

No, but Nintendo's success prove that you can go other ways than 10x the horsepower of last gen and make a profit.

I like the idea of extending the generation a couple years, there's always a solution for better graphics, besides I'm pretty happy with the graphics right now, and they will evolve thru time even on the same hardware.

 

[Ysiadmihi]

No, but Nintendo's success prove that you can go other ways than 10x the horsepower of last gen and make a profit.

But that's only because Nintendo went after a different market. One that really doesn't give two shits about graphics.

Anyone saying they're happy with Microsoft and Sony sticking with the same powered consoles for years to come are lying to themselves and will be sorely disappointed when that ends up being the case.

 

[SouthernDragon]

Anyone saying they're happy with Microsoft and Sony sticking with the same powered consoles for years to come are lying to themselves and will be sorely disappointed when that ends up being the case.

I'd be happy with the same powered consoles for 5 more years, and I doubt I've been lying to myself.

To be clear, I own a Wii, have a PS3 on the way, and I've been playing on my friend's 360 for the past few years.

I have no qualms with the current abilities of the hardware. The software and underlying OS is being developed well.

 

[Vinci]

No, but Nintendo's success prove that you can go other ways than 10x the horsepower of last gen and make a profit.

I sorta see Natal as MS's attempt to '10x the horsepower' of the Wiimote. In essence, upscaling beyond a point of necessity. Still, it could very well be interesting.

 

[Ysiadmihi]

I'd be happy with the same powered consoles for 5 more years, and I doubt I've been lying to myself.

To be clear, I own a Wii, have a PS3 on the way, and I've been playing on my friend's 360 for the past few years.

I have no qualms with the current abilities of the hardware. The software and underlying OS is being developed well.

As I said, you're lying to yourself. It's easy to say you're comfortable with them now, but in a few years you'll see what's happening on PC (and possibly a new console) and drooling for a new upgrade in hardware.

The only reason people are happy with them now because there's no other choice (unless you build a good gaming PC).

 

[K' Dash]

But that's only because Nintendo went after a different market. One that really doesn't give two shits about graphics.

Anyone saying they're happy with Microsoft and Sony sticking with the same powered consoles for years to come are lying to themselves and will be sorely disappointed when that ends up being the case.

I agree some people won't like that, but as I see it, it's what's going to happen, MS and Sony won't throw all the money they spent developing the wand an natal for the next-gen to start fall 2010 even 2011.

A big chunk of PS3 and 360 owners say that they aren't ready to buy a new console for few years, you can find several people in this thread who think taht way, presonally I feel this generation is half empty, theres no feeling of games really pushing the hardware, just a few of the seem to do it, and the integration of social networks, movies, tv and music in 1 box is great and will help to extend hardware cycle, IMHO.

 

[Ysiadmihi]

I agree some people won't like that, but as I see it, it's what's going to happen, MS and Sony won't throw all the money they spent developing the wand an natal for the next-gen to start fall 2010 even 2011.

A big chunk of PS3 and 360 owners say that they aren't ready to buy a new console for few years, you can find several people in this thread who think taht way, presonally I feel this generation is half empty, theres no feeling of games really pushing the hardware, just a few of the seem to do it, and the integration of social networks, movies, tv and music in 1 box is great and will help to extend hardware cycle, IMHO.

Come on, this is ridiculous. How many big games have come out at sub-HD res with under 30fps and screen tearing? The hardware for all consoles is dated. They're not going to start pushing 1080p with 4xAA at 60fps just because a developer tries a little harder.

 

[SouthernDragon]

As I said, you're lying to yourself. It's easy to say you're comfortable with them now, but in a few years you'll see what's happening on PC (and possibly a new console) and drooling for a new upgrade in hardware.

The only reason people are happy with them now because there's no other choice (unless you build a good gaming PC).

I am duly impressed by your ability to read my mind.

I easily transition from playing Radiant Dawn to RE5 and back to Mario Kart without any qualms. Graphics are not a priority for me. I, believe it or not, I don't care about what's being done on PCs; I care more about games I can play with my friends locally.

The reason I'm happy with the consoles right now is because they are providing the multiplayer (and some single player) experiences that I've always wanted. The Xbox 360 is significantly different experience now than it was in 2006.

I was going to post more, but if you'll excuse me, my PS3 just arrived in the mail, so I have to go set it up. :3

(P.S. And yes, I do have an HDTV so I can contrast the Wii and the HD systems side by side, and it doesn't bother me a whit.)

 

[FLEABttn]

Come on, this is ridiculous. How many big games have come out at sub-HD res with under 30fps and screen tearing? The hardware for all consoles is dated. They're not going to start pushing 1080p with 4xAA at 60fps just because a developer tries a little harder.

You're assuming that every developer is trying and that opportunity costs don't exist.

 

[Ysiadmihi]

I am duly impressed by your ability to read my mind.

I easily transition from playing Radiant Dawn to RE5 and back to Mario Kart without any qualms. Graphics are not a priority for me. I, believe it or not, I don't care about what's being done on PCs; I care more about games I can play with my friends locally.

The reason I'm happy with the consoles right now is because they are providing the multiplayer (and some single player) experiences that I've always wanted. The Xbox 360 is significantly different experience now than it was in 2006.

I was going to post more, but if you'll excuse me, my PS3 just arrived in the mail, so I have to go set it up. :3

(P.S. And yes, I do have an HDTV so I can contrast the Wii and the HD systems side by side, and it doesn't bother me a whit.)

I didn't say you would care about PC games, I said you would care about the visuals. No matter how much you tell yourself you'll be happy with what consoles are currently crapping out, you won't be as time goes on.

You're assuming that every developer is trying and that opportunity costs don't exist.

And if they *are* trying, we're going to see a significant difference it's what's being done on hardware that's already years old? There is no amount of effort or magic that's going to make the Wii handle Crysis.

 

[K' Dash]

Come on, this is ridiculous. How many big games have come out at sub-HD res with under 30fps and screen tearing? The hardware for all consoles is dated. They're not going to start pushing 1080p with 4xAA at 60fps just because a developer tries a little harder.

I could start list wars with developers commited to the systems they work on, there are really gorgeous games this gen that don't suffer those problems you mention.

I just hope there's no new consoles until early/fall 2012.

 

[FLEABttn]

And if they *are* trying, we're going to see a significant difference it's what's being done on hardware that's already years old? There is no amount of effort or magic that's going to make the Wii handle Crysis.

Significant difference? Depends on what you call significant. Screen tearing gone, maybe. At least 720p, maybe. 60fps, probably not, 1080p very unlikely.

While you're right about Wii and Crysis, there IS an amount or effort or magic that would get Crysis on a 360 or PS3. Currently, there isn't anything being done on PC (which people have been saying is more than a generation ahead of the most powerful console) that can't be done on a 360 or PS3.

 

[Ysiadmihi]

Significant difference? Depends on what you call significant. Screen tearing gone, maybe. At least 720p, maybe. 60fps, probably not, 1080p very unlikely.

While you're right about Wii and Crysis, there IS an amount or effort or magic that would get Crysis on a 360 or PS3. Currently, there isn't anything being done on PC (which people have been saying is more than a generation ahead of the most powerful console) that can't be done on a 360 or PS3.

Crysis cannot be squeezed onto a console without huge sacrifices, which is exactly why the 360 and PS3 are seeing the sequel instead of ports of the original and Warhead. A game like Empire: Total War would absolutely not run on an HD console.

 

[KingJ2002]

i'd be content with this gen lasting to 2013... after all games are looking better and better... we went from quake IV to rage and it can only get better.

im very curious about onlive... i think it could be a game changer like youtube was.... if they play their cards right.

...

can you imagine the advertising boom in videogames if onlive were to take off... it would be disgusting.

 

[AltogetherAndrews]

mmmm, this sounds familiar, let's replace the words MS and Sony.



Yeah, very familiar.

There's a crucial difference there, in that for Nintendo, games and game machines is the core business. For Microsoft and Sony, the gaming bit is merely a component, possibly a pillar, in a larger, multi-product, multi-service industry. Of the three, I think Sony and its CE business would have the most to lose if its foremost gaming and media system could not be used to showcase other products in the CE line.

 

[The Elite]

Peripherals!! Sega had the right idea. Just add things to the system instead of creating a whole new console.

Dreamcast 32X 9/9/09

 

[FLEABttn]

Crysis cannot be squeezed onto a console without huge sacrifices, which is exactly why the 360 and PS3 are seeing the sequel instead of ports of the original and Warhead. A game like Empire: Total War would absolutely not run on an HD console.

Well, I disagree. I think with care it could, but I don't think it would be economically feasible to at this point.

 

[Ysiadmihi]

Well, I disagree. I think with care it could, but I don't think it would be economically feasible to at this point.

How could you disagree? Crysis uses nearly (sometimes over) 2GB of RAM. How can you possibly squeeze that down for a system with no more than 512?

This is why I say people are lying to themselves. They think the 360, PS3 and even Wii have some kind of untapped power that's going to result in massive changes for upcoming games or even keep them from looking dated by late 2010. I'm sorry, but that's just not going to happen. All of us are going to be sorely disappointed when 2011/2012 rolls around and consoles have seen no upgrade.

 

[Xeke]

What the fuck is a gamer in the first place? Am I a movier if I buy DVD's? Am I a musicer for buying CD's? What a stupid term.

 

[GrotesqueBeauty]

Someone will jump the gun. They always do.

 

[K' Dash]

How could you disagree? Crysis uses nearly (sometimes over) 2GB of RAM. How can you possibly squeeze that down for a system with no more than 512?

This is why I say people are lying to themselves. They think the 360, PS3 and even Wii have some kind of untapped power that's going to result in massive changes for upcoming games or even keep them from looking dated by late 2010. I'm sorry, but that's just not going to happen. All of us are going to be sorely disappointed when 2011/2012 rolls around and consoles have seen no upgrade.

There's no untapped power, developers aply techniques to use less resources and do more with the power available.

 

[camineet]

Crysis 2 on consoles will be a significant downgrade from Crysis/Crysis Warhead on PCs. And would never be possible on Wii without a MASSIVE downgrade. If Crysis was put on Wii, it would be there in name only.

Think of Crysis and high-end PC as Street Fighter II arcade on the CPS board, a powerful 16-bit board. The 360/PS3 are Genesis/SNES, getting downgraded conversions of that game, and the Wii is the NES with no serious SFII conversion at all.

Highend PCs with DX10 cards already massively surpass 360/PS3 in performance.


Anyway, fall 2013 is the absolute latest I want to see next-gen consoles.

 

[Ysiadmihi]

There's no untapped power, developers aply techniques to use less resources and do more with the power available.

You seem to think the gain they'll get from doing this will more than make up for the weakness of the hardware. It won't.

As an example, I just finished MGS4 about a week ago. I saw a lot of framerate dips, jaggies, ugly textures and downright offensive looking self-shadowing. Did these problems come from hardware limitations or was Kojima just lazy?

 

[Firestorm]

What the fuck is a gamer in the first place? Am I a movier if I buy DVD's? Am I a musicer for buying CD's? What a stupid term.

No, you're a 'Movie-goer",
"viewer", and "listener". For games we have "gamer" and "player".

 

[Kintaro]

What the fuck is a gamer in the first place? Am I a movier if I buy DVD's? Am I a musicer for buying CD's? What a stupid term.

You're a movie buff and music lover. We just can't add "-er" to everything all willy nilly like.

The more I read about all this stuff, the more I move towards PC gaming full time to cut out the bullshit. Which is funny because consoles continue to move to being more and more like PCs, even if the consumer doesn't realize it. Now we got rumors of "hardware upgraded" skus and people on these very boards accepting of the idea. Crazy.

Crysis 2 PC vs. 360 vs. PS3 threads will be EPIC.

 

[Flying_Phoenix]

:lol @ the hardcore being too few in numbers

I'm sorry, the hardcore is the center of the gaming universe.

They buy the most games

You think MW2 will be the best selling game of the year thanks to casuals?

These posts are amazing. :lol

 

[ghst]

enjoy your communism, consoles. gimped games and aging tech is fine because everyone gets the same measly portion.

 

[JoJo13]

There's a number of different factors at play here:

1. Graphical technology is reaching a point where it no longer looks extremely rough around the edges; you have experiences like Uncharted 2, God of War 3, Killzone 2, Gears of War 2, etc that will look timeless even many generations from now -- I think with the HD consoles, gaming in 3D has reached the level of satisfaction and fidelity that we saw with the SNES generation. That is to say, 2D games stopped looking like absolute crap and now look very good and, as I stated before, timeless. I can still look back at many beautiful SNES games and I can't really say the same about the NES. Playing the PS2 and PS1 generations, 3D technology still looks very rough to the eyes, partially due to image quality but also because of the simplicity of the graphics themselves. This isn't to say that graphics don't have a long way to go -- they do, only to suggest that graphics have reached a very satisfactory level of visual appeal.

2. More importantly than graphics, however, is how we experience games. Graphical technology has been exploited tremendously, but we still have yet to push boundaries with how gaming will transition in terms of an interactive experience. We are using the same controllers (for the HD systems) that was established for the most part a long, long, long time ago. So while graphical tech has increased, the way we experience games genuinely has not (outside of the advent of online multiplayer gaming). With Microsoft and Sony trying to play catch up to the Wii in this regard, I think it's pretty clear that pushing graphical boundaries is no longer the best business move and that consumers are expecting new ways to interact with products rather than having slightly better graphics. And establishing gaming experiences with Microsoft's Natal or Sony's wand is not going to be something that happens over night; support for these devices will take a long time to materialize in software, and developers will continue to think of new and exciting gameplay experiences that can come from 1:1 motion controls.

Given the second point, I don't see a new console generation starting before 2014. Microsoft has already mentioned that they see the Xbox 360 lasting through 2015, and Sony's 10 year lifecycle would put them at 2016.

 

[Andrew2]

When you consider the fact the average consumer doesn't go out every model year to buy a new car, its the same deal with consoles...consumer don't want to be buying a new console every 4-5 years.

Other than that you have to give Sony credit for creating the extended console lifecycle which started with the PSone which was carried over the to PS2 and now PS3 and PSP.

 

[Arpharmd B]

What the fuck is a gamer in the first place? Am I a movier if I buy DVD's? Am I a musicer for buying CD's? What a stupid term.

Reminds me of the dude that ripped on the term "gameplay". Do we review books based on how good the "bookread" is. How about how good the "moviewatch" is in films. This CD sure has some good "musichear" in it.

 

[Bert]

In the words of the late great Bill Hicks: if you're a marketer, kill yourself.

I don't even know what some of you classify me as (casual, gamer, hardcore) but my girlf is most definitely casual, she will always buy and play these games though: Mario Kart, Mario, GTA, Sims, Animal Crossing, Sim City.

She buys these games because they are good games, not because they are casual. I love most of these games as well (I don't get the Sims) but will also buy Killzone, PES, etc because I like shooting and football.

I have friends who play games way more than me but buy nothing but shovelware and the odd blockbuster, they won't give Scribblenaughts or similar a go because they don't know they exist.

The point is people buy games according to their tastes, their past experience and the resources available, not because they are a certain category of gamer. Marketers make this stuff up to make it seem like they have a skill worth employing. Categorising based on what games they buy is ass backward anyway.

On topic: I felt the last gen ended too soon, I want a few years of the kind of quality (comparitavley) that was on PS2 towards the end.

 

[OldJadedGamer]

“To survive as a studio of over 200 people we have to pay the bills, and even selling a million units of a title these days just doesn’t cover the costs – so we have to look beyond the hardcore.”

Interesting quote that really puts a stopping in the sales age threads of guys who say that Sony is making 60 million in profit over 1.5million copies sold of KZ2. If the guys making a basic racing game can't make money back on million units, what are these other guys who are making huge... huge budget games like KZ2 losing current and what are their break even numbers?

 

[Onemic]

“Now we are working with Activision we have to think broader, and the hardcore audience is just too few in numbers,” says Chudley. “To survive as a studio of over 200 people we have to pay the bills, and even selling a million units of a title these days just doesn’t cover the costs – so we have to look beyond the hardcore.”

WOW....bullshit much? I don't think I would really trust whatever this guy has to say after a comment like that.

Interesting quote that really puts a stopping in the sales age threads of guys who say that Sony is making 60 million in profit over 1.5million copies sold of KZ2. If the guys making a basic racing game can't make money back on million units, what are these other guys who are making huge... huge budget games like KZ2 losing current and what are their break even numbers?

Are you really going to believe that just at face value?

 

[JoJo13]

Interesting quote that really puts a stopping in the sales age threads of guys who say that Sony is making 60 million in profit over 1.5million copies sold of KZ2. If the guys making a basic racing game can't make money back on million units, what are these other guys who are making huge... huge budget games like KZ2 losing current and what are their break even numbers?

KZ2 was developed by between 100-130 people during full production and it's approaching 2 million in shipment sales.

I don't see how his example of 200 people and only 1 million units is analogous to the above.

You also can't extrapolate anything from his statement given that there's a lot more information needed to make that sort of claim (time frame, average salary and overhead, etc).

 

[kswiston]

WoW is the single biggest PC game in terms of money, nothing else compares even remotely. I'm not quite sure it's the most bleeding edge technology either.

That's how I interpreted the statement. I know that PC Gamers take even the smallest hint of "har har pc games don't sell" about as well as Nintendo fans take "Wii has no games!", but in context, Patcher seems to be referring to the PC gamers who are willing to spend the money required to play games on the bleeding edge of technology, and are unwilling to put up with graphics that are anything but the best.

Judging by the fact that most people buy their PCs pre-assembled from places like Best Buy, and most pcs sold in those stores run on crappy intergrated graphics chips, the PC gaming elite IS an irrelevantly small group. PC Gaming in its entirety is huge, but most people who purchase pc games buy their computers for school/business/the internet first, and play games on it as a secondary function.

 

[billy.sea]

I still think we just started our console cycle not too long ago. Why is the press so eager to move to next gen?

 

[Xiaoki]

Reminds me of the dude that ripped on the term "gameplay". Do we review books based on how good the "bookread" is. How about how good the "moviewatch" is in films. This CD sure has some good "musichear" in it.

Ever hear of "flow" or "direction"?
If a movie or a book is a jumbled mess and hard to follow then that would be the same as bad gameplay in a video game.
But then, movies, books and music are very different from video games. You dont have control over those mediums(well, in a "Choose Your Own Adventure" book I guess) like you do in a video game. So, comparing how we control a video game to how we watch or listen other entertainment mediums is kinda stupid. It also circles back to the argument of "Why video games are not art" but that is not necessary to delve into right now.


There will be a new generation of consoles, that is inevitable, to think otherwise is very foolish. 2012 does sound like a good time to start but what kind of generation will it be? Will it be a similar jump of what we've seen before or a small one? How will all gamers react in 2015 when we have graphics only marginally better than what we have now? Will we have full body suits? Will virtual reality make a come back?
We dont know.