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[Solid warrior]

In Washington, President Barack Obama said the United States is "deeply concerned" by Morsy's removal and the suspension of the constitution.

Washington has supplied Egypt's military with tens of billions in support and equipment over more than 30 years, and under U.S. law, that support could be cut off after a coup -- a term his White House statement avoided.

"The United States does not support particular individuals or political parties, but we are committed to the democratic process and respect for the rule of law," Obama said.

He said he had ordered "the relevant departments and agencies" to study what American law would mean for U.S. aid, and urged the generals to hand power back to an elected government 'as soon as possible."

Wednesday's events capped days of massive demonstrations for and against Morsy. The demonstrations were largely peaceful, but health officials said 23 people died in clashes overnight at Cairo University, Al-Ahram reported.

Anti-Morsy demonstrators have ransacked Muslim Brotherhood offices around Egypt in the past several days.

Obama called Morsy on Monday to urge him to take a less-rigid stance toward his opponents, telling his Egyptian counterpart "that democracy is about more than elections," a White House statement said. But the State Department denied that Obama had urged Morsy to call early elections, as a senior administration official had said Tuesday.

DEEPLY CONCERNED

not a single word of condemnation of the military coup.

http://edition.cnn.com/2013/07/03/world/meast/egypt-protests/index.html

THANK YOU OBAMA. PLEASE BE EXCITED.

 

[Trouble]

Is Egypt going to become like Thailand where (nearly) bloodless military coups are a somewhat regular part of the political system? It's kind of a fascinating phenomenon from a socio-political perspective.

 

[Funky Papa]

This is stupid. The MB wasn't exactly well liked in the UK or the US, but beyond that is the fact that Morsi ceased to be a democratic leader the second he made a power grab, shunned the opposition and began to oppress minorities. He lost his democratic legitimacy and therefore it's difficult to condemn the coup. None of them are in the right.

There's not black and white, just a whole lot of gray.

 

[Joel Was Right]

The Army has shut down several media outlets, including independent ones and Al-Jazeera's sister network in Egypt and have arrested the presenters and even guests.

This is appalling.

 

[Zapages]

Christina Ayanamore(SP?) on CNN is reiterating what I was saying in this thread about this situation in Egypt!!!

 

[~Devil Trigger~]

This is stupid. The MB wasn't exactly well liked in the UK or the US, but beyond that is the fact that Morsi ceased to be a democratic leader the second he made a power grab, shunned the opposition and began to oppress minorities. He lost his democratic legitimacy and therefore it's difficult to condemn the coup. None of them are in the right.

There's not black and white, just a whole lot of gray.

me too, and its still an ugly scene.

but Morsi did crack yesterday(or today) but there's no body from the opposition stepped up.

The opposition really need to get their shit together, or else the Brotherhood is gonna win the next election.

And the army already back on their old BS, shutting down media...smh

 

[zeroOman]

This is stupid. The MB wasn't exactly well liked in the UK or the US, but beyond that is the fact that Morsi ceased to be a democratic leader the second he made a power grab, shunned the opposition and began to oppress minorities. He lost his democratic legitimacy and therefore it's difficult to condemn the coup. None of them are in the right.

There's not black and white, just a whole lot of gray.

but the power was need to clean teh gov and the country from the old regime.... or ur way of thinking....

he did to stop the Opposition from suspended the constitution... because if they did he would have to wait another 6 or 1 year to make it....which will cause a lot of problem to the economic and other thing

 

[SoulPlaya]

If democracy in Egypt means a sharia state, then Egypt shouldn't have democracy.

 

[Solid warrior]

If democracy in Egypt means a sharia state, then Egypt shouldn't have democracy.

What if the people want a sharia state?

 

[SoulPlaya]

What if the people want a sharia state?

Uhhhh, what did I just say?

 

[zeroOman]

If democracy in Egypt means a sharia state, then Egypt shouldn't have democracy.

democracy shouldn't be problem only if some of it conflicted with the sharia law

 

[Karakand]

What if the people want a sharia state?

You will have to very delicately inform them that SoulPlaya S., Esquire has decreed they cannot have one.

 

[Solid warrior]

Uhhhh, what did I just say?

You're determining their future on behalf of them? :lol

 

[GillianSeed79]

So what are the odds that the military will actually hand over power to an interim government or allow for new elections?

On the one hand, Morsi undermined the birth of a fledgling democracy by giving himself sweeping powers and implementing an Islamist constitution, but on the other hand he was democratically elected and the constitution everyone in Egypt hates was passed with like 62 percent of the vote. Granted, there was only like a 32 percent turnout, which is why boycotting elections is a stupid idea. I personally like that Morsi was thrown out of power, but I don't like the fact that they couldn't reach a compromise or they didn't hold new elections instead. Military coups are rarely a good thing when it comes to democracies.

I'd wager, we can use the $1 billion in aid we provide to the military there as leverage to have them implement an interim government or allow for new elections. It's actually in our strategic interest, since the opposition is made up of a lot of secularists. Besides, people in Egypt seem to hate us since we sent the message that we supported Morsi despite the overwhelming opposition by the people on the streets.

In any extent, I doubt that even if the military hands back power to the people and they elect a popular secular president that any of Egypt's economic woes are going to be magically solved.

 

[SoulPlaya]

You're determining their future on behalf of them? :lol

Yes, because I know what sharia law will mean for minority rights and women's rights.

 

[shinobi602]

The Army has shut down several media outlets, including independent ones and Al-Jazeera's sister network in Egypt and have arrested the presenters and even guests.

This is appalling.

Back to square one.

 

[SoulPlaya]

You will have to very delicately inform them that SoulPlaya S., Esquire has decreed they cannot have one.

It's just my opinion. I'm not someone who believes that just because the majority of people want something that they should now infringe on inalienable rights of minorities or women or other religious groups.

 

[SoulPlaya]

I'd wager, we can use the $1 billion in aid we provide to the military there as leverage to have them implement an interim government or allow for new elections. It's actually in our strategic interest, since the opposition is made up of a lot of secularists. Besides, people in Egypt seem to hate us since we sent the message that we supported Morsi despite the overwhelming opposition by the people on the streets.

The military has already said that they will implement an interim government, and set up new elections.

 

[pulsemyne]

Egyptian people want a democracy free from religious influence. what do they do? go vote for religious parties.

so much nonsense in one post.

Well many of them did not vote for the brotherhood. A number of those that did vote did so because they were seen as strong people in a time when Egypt needed strength. The opposition was frankly laughable.
A large portion of voters who voted for the brotherhood were told that Islamic influences on government policy wouldn't be pushed. But pushed they were.
The brotherhoods power base does not come from the cities but more from the rural areas where there is little education. Here the brotherhood helps people out and that gets votes. People don't necessarily vote for them because they are Islamic.

 

[NYCmetsfan]

So what are the odds that the military will actually hand over power to an interim government or allow for new elections?

Did you miss the last interim government?

 

[Solid warrior]

Yes, because I know what sharia law will mean for minority rights and women's rights.

Yes, but do you know what's good for Egypt better than Egyptians?

Egypt is not California, btw.

You should come to Egypt one day and see for yourself how Sharia law influences the lives of the entire population without the need of implementing the law in state level.

 

[SoulPlaya]

Yes, but do you know what's good for Egypt better than Egyptians?

Egypt is not California, btw.

You should come to Egypt one day and see for yourself how Sharia law influences the lives of the entire population without the need of implementing the law in state level.

All I want is something simple, respect for minority rights and security for them, so they don't have to fear for their lives. I don't have to be in Egypt to know that's best for Egypt. I just have to be human. The need for respect for certain rights would be true no matter where I was.

I don't believe that's possible under full implementation of sharia law.

 

[ConfusingJazz]

The CIA has a history of getting involved in regime changes. They didn't stop and they won't stop in the future.


http://www.nytimes.com/2013/03/25/w...bels-expands-with-cia-aid.html?pagewanted=all

You're asserting the CIA has something to do with this. You're evidence is from another country which our stated policy is to arm rebels. I don't see your argument is in any way compelling.

 

[Estocolmo]

The Armenian genocide occurred under the Ottoman Empire, not the modern Turkish state.

Yes.

And Turkey, the successor state of the Ottoman Empire, denies the word genocide is an accurate description of the events.

From wikipedia:

The Republic of Turkey's formal stance is that the deaths of Armenians during the "relocation" or "deportation" cannot aptly be deemed "genocide", a position that has been supported with a plethora of diverging justifications: that the killings were not deliberate nor were governmentally orchestrated. The killings were justified because Armenians posed a Russian-sympathizing threat as a cultural group; the Armenians merely starved, or any of various characterizations recalling marauding "Armenian gangs". Some suggestions seek to invalidate the genocide on semantic or anachronistic grounds (the word "genocide" was not coined until 1943). Turkish World War I casualty figures are often cited to mitigate the effect of the number of Armenian dead

The genocide, and how the Turkish government has handled it afterwards, is one of the biggest shames in modern history.

 

[SoulPlaya]

Yes.

And Turkey, the successor state of the Ottoman Empire, denies the word genocide is an accurate description of the events.

From wikipedia:

"The Republic of Turkey's formal stance is that the deaths of Armenians during the "relocation" or "deportation" cannot aptly be deemed "genocide", a position that has been supported with a plethora of diverging justifications: that the killings were not deliberate nor were governmentally orchestrated. The killings were justified because Armenians posed a Russian-sympathizing threat as a cultural group; the Armenians merely starved, or any of various characterizations recalling marauding "Armenian gangs". Some suggestions seek to invalidate the genocide on semantic or anachronistic grounds (the word "genocide" was not coined until 1943). Turkish World War I casualty figures are often cited to mitigate the effect of the number of Armenian dead"

One of the biggest shames in modern times.

I never stated the state was perfect. Many of my relatives died in that genocide, and you're right, it is an absolute shame.

EDIT: BTW, it wasn't just an Armenian Genocide. It was a Christian Genocide. Other Christian groups were also targeted.

 

[Freezie KO]

Egypt is not California, btw.

It should aspire to be like California.

 

[NYCmetsfan]

DEEPLY CONCERNED

not a single word of condemnation of the military coup.

http://edition.cnn.com/2013/07/03/world/meast/egypt-protests/index.html

THANK YOU OBAMA. PLEASE BE EXCITED.

Do you want us to interfere in other countries affairs or not?

 

[pgtl_10]

I like these blog posts:

Irony in Egypt

" So today, Egypt faces a disturbing paradox: an ostensibly democratic movement is calling on the military, which produced six decades of autocrats, to oust a democratically elected president — all in the name of setting the country, once again, on a path to democracy."

Look what is happening

This military coup basically licensed the Ikhwan to launch a military rebellion in Egypt. They can legitimately now claim that they were not allowed to rule through the ballot box, as was promised.

The rules of the game

So if the opposition produces a president of their own, the Ikhwan will have the legitimacy to remove him/her from power after one year if they don't like him/her??

So true

http://angryarab.blogspot.com/

I always felt that the reaction toward Hamas was overkill. Let Islamic parties make their mistakes and then punish them at the polls. Unfortunately people are impatient which cause Islamic parties to revert to violence because the same opposition refuses to respect defeat.

 

[Solid warrior]

You're asserting the CIA has something to do with this. You're evidence is from another country which our stated policy is to arm rebels. I don't see your argument is in any way compelling.

As I said, The CIA has a long history of getting involved in regime changes, evidently. You're right that there is no evidence of US involvement in what happened in Egypt, today. But that doesn't mean that the US/West are not involved in today's military coup. All signs indicate to an involvement. And the US/west refusal to condemn the military coup is a shame.

 

[Solid warrior]

I like these blog posts:







So true

http://angryarab.blogspot.com/

I always felt that the reaction toward Hamas was overkill. Let Islamic parties make their mistakes and then punish them at the polls. Unfortunately people are impatient which cause parties to revert to violence because the same opposition refuses to respect defeat.

This is why abstaining from condemnation of the military coup is a major mistake and they'll regret it. Credibility gone.

 

[SoulPlaya]

I like these blog posts:







So true

http://angryarab.blogspot.com/

I always felt that the reaction toward Hamas was overkill. Let Islamic parties make their mistakes and then punish them at the polls. Unfortunately people are impatient which cause parties to revert to violence because the same opposition refuses to respect defeat.

I don't think people understand. Morsi was rewriting the constitution to give himself vast powers. He also was playing great control over the media, which would have given him a decisive edge in any election. He was creating a fake democracy, and likely wasn't going to lose the next election (especially in a parliamentary style democracy), because of it.

It reminds me of Maliki in Iraq. His party actually lost the last election, but he was the only one who could form a stable government, and continued to maintain power.

 

[pgtl_10]

I lived in Kuwait and took many frequent trips to other Gulf countries like Bahrain and Qatar, and speak decent Arabic so I'm not stranger to the Arab Spring.

Your comments are pretty insulting, they imply that Arabs do not have a mind of their own: that even the civilians are American puppets under some kind of mind control devices. Tunisian king resigned himself when peaceful demonstrations took place. Mubarak also resigned under similar circumstances. NTC were freedom fighters. Yes, they were backed by the West but guess what they established the true democracy that Libyans themselves were asking for. Libyans, unlike Egyptians and Morsi, support the NTC and the new democracy that has formed. And Libya is still an overall stable country despite what you say, it is YOU who is brainwashed by American media into thinking it is dangerous, "Bangawzi" was an isolated incident. It was so sensationalized by Western media, it's a shame that most people do not give the Libyan democracy its due credit, even after they elected a liberal/secular party.


The only countries your conspiracy theory works for are Syria, Bahrain and Yemen.

I don't listen to American media and from what I'm hearing Libya is not stable at all.

Arabs do have minds of their own but Libya and Syria were hijacked by outside powers. Egypt and Tunisia have been unstable but to me the outside interference is not as influential.

 

[Solid warrior]

I don't think people understand. Morsi was rewriting the constitution to give himself vast powers. He also was playing great control over the media, which would have given him a decisive edge in any election. He was creating a fake democracy, and likely wasn't going to lose the next election (especially in a parliamentary style democracy), because of it.

It reminds me of Maliki in Iraq. His party actually lost the last election, but he was the only one who could form a stable government, and continued to maintain power.

Yet, If another free election takes place, Islamists will most likely win.

Maliki's governments were approved by the democratically elected National Assembly.

 

[zeroOman]

I don't think people understand. Morsi was rewriting the constitution to give himself vast powers. He also was playing great control over the media, which would have given him a decisive edge in any election. He was creating a fake democracy, and likely wasn't going to lose the next election (especially in a parliamentary style democracy), because of it.

It reminds me of Maliki in Iraq. His party actually lost the last election, but he was the only one who could form a stable government, and continued to maintain power.

keep saying it to ur self .... these power were removed by him.... so what is ur new agreement now? and the media was against him from the start they attacked him ever time they find something on him

 

[pgtl_10]

I don't think people understand. Morsi was rewriting the constitution to give himself vast powers. He also was playing great control over the media, which would have given him a decisive edge in any election. He was creating a fake democracy, and likely wasn't going to lose the next election (especially in a parliamentary style democracy), because of it.

It reminds me of Maliki in Iraq. His party actually lost the last election, but he was the only one who could form a stable government, and continued to maintain power.

That might be true but asking the army to intervene is like the worst solution possible. Also getting a former Mubarak thug to replace him is not a solution.

Nonetheless revolutions were never meant to be easy.

 

[hoos30]

If Egyptians are smart and they want their freedom back. They should go out now and occupy the US and Israeli embassy. Just like the Iranians did in the past. It would put both the military junta and the US gov in trouble. But I doubt they'll do it.

Wut?

 

[CHEEZMO™]

You're right that there is no evidence of US involvement in what happened in Egypt, today [...] All signs indicate to an involvement.

Okay.

 

[ctothej]

This sucks. I mean, Morsi shouldn't be President, but Egypt deserves a serious break from political instability. They earned their democracy, Goddamnit!

 

[GillianSeed79]

As I said, The CIA has a long history of getting involved in regime changes, evidently. You're right that there is no evidence of US involvement in what happened in Egypt, today. But that doesn't mean that the US/West are not involved in today's military coup. All signs indicate to an involvement. And the US/west refusal to condemn the military coup is a shame.

Umm...the U.S. and Obama administration were getting shit for seemingly sending the message that we supported Morsi over the protestors. It's kind of insulting to the protestors there to suggest that we had something to do with this, especially considering that the public opinion in Egypt regarding the administration's stance on the crisis isn't exactly glowing when it comes to the U.S. The people elected a president by a slim majority who proceeded to remove judicial oversight and checks and balances while giving himself sweeping powers while the country plunged further into economic turmoil. The people said no and stood up, which I'm actually surprised they did. I thought secular Egypt was as good as dead after Morsi took over.

 

[dripdripsplash]

What do you mean "we arabs" love to blame west?

We arabs have never been in power of our countries. Who was supporting sadam during the iran/iraq war and during the civil annihilation by sadam. Who was also dealing behind the scene with Iran during the exact same time.

Who has been supporting the saudis and came for its defense as soon as Kuwait was attack.

"We Arabs" cant even get our country back due to financial and military help from outside west.

Its easy to control a dictator then a nation. This has been going on since the dawn of civilization.

I say we arabs because WE arabs freaking love to blame the west (US/Israel) for every single action or reaction that happens in our countries and you freaing know it!

I was just watching Egyptian State TV today and they interviewed a guy who said something along the lines of: 'Finally we're free. We have uncoverede the American-Israeli plot that tries to bla bla bla..."

As I said in my original post though I acknowledge that the West has played a huge part in our region and in our history and in mainly negative ways, but saying that they control revolts, revolutions and uprisings is just condescending towards ourselves.

There is much to be blamed on the West, but simply keep blaming others doesn't fix anything. That's what I'm trying to get at.

 

[Solid warrior]

Okay.

Yep, they refused to condemn the military coup and the pentagon was in contact with the military junta all of the time to suggest to them what they should do next.

 

[Solid warrior]

Umm...the U.S. and Obama administration were getting shit for seemingly sending the message that we supported Morsi over the protestors. It's kind of insulting to the protestors there to suggest that we had something to do with this, especially considering that the public opinion in Egypt regarding the administration's stance on the crisis isn't exactly glowing when it comes to the U.S. The people elected a president by a slim majority who proceeded to remove judicial oversight and checks and balances while giving himself sweeping powers while the country plunged further into economic turmoil. The people said no and stood up, which I'm actually surprised they did. I thought secular Egypt was as good as dead after Morsi took over.

Again, If another free election takes place, Morsi or another Islamist will most likely win the elections.

The military junta is aware of this, so they might put all potential Islamist candidates in jail.

 

[dyergram]

What if the people want a sharia state?

I'm pretty sure the Christians that live there don't.

 

[hoos30]

I like these blog posts:







So true

http://angryarab.blogspot.com/

I always felt that the reaction toward Hamas was overkill. Let Islamic parties make their mistakes and then punish them at the polls. Unfortunately people are impatient which cause Islamic parties to revert to violence because the same opposition refuses to respect defeat.

You cannot expect people to have faith and patience in the democratic process when the FIRST thing you do when you get in office is consolidate power and suppress minority rights. Morsi and the MB WAY overplayed their hand and this is the result.

So yes, it looks a little goofy now to be celebrating a coup, but to the casual Western observer, this is the most hopeful result.

 

[pgtl_10]

I say we arabs because WE arabs freaking love to blame the west (US/Israel) for every single action or reaction that happens in our countries and you freaing know it!

I was just watching Egyptian State TV today and they interviewed a guy who said something along the lines of: 'Finally we're free. We have uncoverede the American-Israeli plot that tries to bla bla bla..."

As I said in my original post though I acknowledge that the West has played a huge part in our region and in our history and in mainly negative ways, but saying that they control revolts, revolutions and uprisings is just condescending towards ourselves.

There is much to be blamed on the West, but simply keep blaming others doesn't fix anything. That's what I'm trying to get at.

True but in that quote you overlooked the "We" part. It seems that Arabs are starting to assert themselves.

 

[BeerSnob]

What if the people want a sharia state?

Deep south U.S lawmakers wanted segregation and, "black codes" and the majority backed them. Should they have gotten their way indefinitely?

 

[Nokagi]

Do you want us to interfere in other countries affairs or not?

I believe it all depends on what conspiracy theory he is going with at the moment.

 

[pgtl_10]

You cannot expect people to have faith and patience in the democratic process when the FIRST thing you do when you get in office is consolidate power and suppress minority rights. Morsi and the MB WAY overplayed their hand and this is the result.

So yes, it looks a little goofy now to be celebrating a coup, but to the casual Western observer, this is the most hopeful result.

Replacing one dictator with another is not much of a success. I don't like the Islamic afterall I'm Palestinian Christian so they go against my interest but the constitution was voted in with a majority. Also the opposition was not very cooperative.

However people pushing for change in the streets I can support. The military rushing things I have a problem with.

 

[captainnapalm]

DEEPLY CONCERNED

not a single word of condemnation of the military coup.

http://edition.cnn.com/2013/07/03/world/meast/egypt-protests/index.html

THANK YOU OBAMA. PLEASE BE EXCITED.

They're totally in favour of the coup. I just saw an article on the BBC admitting as much. They've already turned against Morsi and will soon give the military a stack of loot. Many of the top military guys in Egypt are apparently US-trained as well.

My guess as to what's going on - the same liberal/democratic forces the West duped to get rid of Mubarak were not happy with the bait and switch and more of the same from Morsi, and the US saw the writing on the wall. So now they seem to be embracing the idea of a military coup. This wasn't necessary in a place like Libya, for example, where the bad guys could just take over.

As for the initial Arab Spring, the only reason the likes of Mubarak and Gaddafi are out of power is because the US/West abandoned them. They wanted them gone. In no way was the West ever against the Arab Spring. Whatever their initial words, they were quick to recognise opposition forces like the Transitional National Council in Libya and quick to call for Mubarak in Egypt to go. Quick to back lunatics turning Syria into a bloodbath. If that was not in their interest, they would never in a million years have backed or supported these revolutions to oust their own strategic allies in a strategically important region purely because that was the will of the people in those countries. They've never operated like that. The US doesn't go 'Oh, we've lost a valuable strategic ally, we'll just now publicly support the revolution and take our licks because it's good for the people of that country'. Doesn't happen. They only care about what's good for business and their own power grab, NOT regime changes that cost them allies.

So they are in favour of the Arab Spring, without a shadow of a doubt. And there must be something in it for them other than the potential freedom of people in those regions, which we'll all soon see, sadly, is a total pipe dream anyway. Once the US approved of these revolutions, it was obvious they would not turn out to be good for the man on the street in the middle east.

US allies like Qatar have been throwing billions of dollars at countries like Libya and Egypt in an effort to promote hard-line Islamic governments/leaders who are in favour of things like sharia law. The US would never allow an ally like Qatar to be wielding this kind of influence in the region if they weren't ok with it.

In Egypt, at least, this strategy has received too much resistance, and it seems they've been forced to go another route.

 

[GillianSeed79]

Yep, they refused to condemn the military coup and the pentagon was in contact with the military junta all of the time to suggest to them what they should do next.

Yet, we are now in a position where we may have to cut aid to the Egyptian military because an elected leader was removed form power. The Egyptian aid package to the military is part of the deal we made when we brokered the peace deal between Egypt and Israel. Can't you see how this is going to be a delicate political situation for us and might be disadvantageous to our strategic interests? Sure, I think most rational people here in the U.S. are glad Morsi is gone, but there could be implications. I doubt we'll cut off aid, but we could. What happens then? Does Egypt back out of the peace agreement with Israel? People don't like us already there and hate our foreign policy regarding Israel. Not only could we end up looking like we supported Morsi over the will of the people, we are put into a situation where we have to contemplate possibly cutting aid and backlash from whoever is elected president next and those elected in the legislature there.

You probably understand that we, and by we I mean our foreign policy and not the people of the U.S, generally place Israel's strategic interests above the rest of the Arab world. Egypt in turmoil is not exactly comforting for us. We weren't exactly telling Mubarak to get the fuck out either at first, because, for us, we don't like when shit gets unpredictable in the middle east. Just my two cents.