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[TGO]

To err is human, to forgive divine.

I also like how he's to blame for underperforming studios not creating anything of value.

Well CD is celebrating my a shit load of anniversaries for team members that have been there for 5 years and it a lot, They ain't produced anything since Avengers and before that was 2015 with Rise.
So what exactly are they celebrating?
Them doing jack shit or creating that disclaimer at the beginning of Tomb Raider I-III Remastered?

 

[ProtoByte]

While I always feel for those getting laid off, and I can jump on the whole corporate greed bandwagon. Sometimes, I think we also need to ask... whats the alternative?

Should they not have hired more people to begin with? Should they not have bought or absorbed studios that were on a downward trend elsewhere and were probably on the verge of shutting down anyway?

But more interestingly, is that I feel that if this were any of us, if this was us footing the bill for these studios and not getting the returns on our investments. We would probably have done the same thing too.

I think these companies need to take a more measured approach to growth and expansion, it's when they force it that these things tend to happen.

Correct. All Embracer gives is a name to blame. Nevermind that the studios that the gaming press and forum scene are eulogizing were mostly never significantly covered or discussed by either, leg alone revered.

There was always going to be a gaming growth cool-off/plateau even without coof, and when that point came, mediocre jank factories and small underappreciated studios alike were going to be on the brink. All of that old IP that never grew with gaming was going to fall by the wayside.

 

[Cyberpunkd]

Should they not have hired more people to begin with? Should they not have bought or absorbed studios that were on a downward trend elsewhere and were probably on the verge of shutting down anyway?

Yes. Yes.

If they are not your studios they are not your responsibility. You acquire them because you think you can do a better job than they do.

Now you are on the hook.

If not we get quickly into moral hazard territory - what’s the downside? Studios are successful, you get the credit. They are not - you blame it on how they operated before the acquisition.

 

[ShadyAcshuns]

Too much flash, too much spending, not enough aa and niche games being made because everybody wants the next big aaa or gaas game. Make better decisions or watch the industry implode on itself.

 

[Barlow]

Does that mean it's something he has to get through in the next days?

 

[ProtoByte]

Too much flash, too much spending, not enough aa and niche games being made because everybody wants the next big aaa or gaas game. Make better decisions or watch the industry implode on itself.

Almost all the studios that Embracer owns are AA. They just don't sell much and aren't efficient enough.

 

[username12]

His compensation is just over $100k. Firing him would be enough to save 1 or 2 other workers. There may be an argument he should be fired, but it's not going to help much if they have a cost structure that is out of touch with earnings.

 

[Jakk]

True, but aren't there also a lot of cases where laying off a percentage of employees is the right option too?

Where did I say there aren't such cases? I quoted you because you wrote something in the sense that CEO/management isn't at all responsible for underperforming studios, which IMO isn't true at all.

And the CEO saying stuff like "everyone needs to ge through this" is just stupid - sometimes it's better to be quiet. Especially in this case, when Embracer has been doing quite bad for a long time now. Who is responsible for the aggresive acquisitions and the recent failed $2 billion deal? The laid off employees?

 

[Harlock]

The error is not in layoffs, but hiring too much.

 

[FunkMiller]

Lars Wingefors?

You mean this piece of shit?

Get something painful and die from it, you bottom feeding cunt.

 

[Goalus]

What's the problem? They embraced a lot of developers a few years ago and are letting some of them go now because they realized that they embraced too many at once.

 

[RavageX]

So...my take on this.

Do you folks not see how many mediocre games are released these days? Games that take years and years, costs assloads of money to make and end up looking and/or playing like shit? Lets use that Gollum game for example.

A lot of factors come into play, but ultimately if a company has workers that do more harm than good...they need to go.

You have a lot of entitled shits these days who spend more time complaining and want to put their politics in games and, "Need to make a bold statement." instead of making sure the game doesnt suck.

Those folks need to go. Hires that were only made to appease groups but lack talent....they need to go.

Look at the recent news, not just with this company but many others, a good number of the lay offs seem to fall into these categories.

Not saying firings are a good thing, or that this is whats happening with this company but it is something that has been happening, and it needs to happen in the long run otherwise gaming as a whole will continue to suffer.

 

[Moses85]

this CEO is.

 

[ungalo]

I can get through some layoffs, it's Deus Ex cancellation that's the problem, and closing Piranha Bytes. Not buying shit from them.

 

[darrylgorn]

"everyone"

 

[Dazraell]

So...my take on this.

Do you folks not see how many mediocre games are released these days? Games that take years and years, costs assloads of money to make and end up looking and/or playing like shit? Lets use that Gollum game for example.

A lot of factors come into play, but ultimately if a company has workers that do more harm than good...they need to go.

You have a lot of entitled shits these days who spend more time complaining and want to put their politics in games and, "Need to make a bold statement." instead of making sure the game doesnt suck.

Those folks need to go. Hires that were only made to appease groups but lack talent....they need to go.

Look at the recent news, not just with this company but many others, a good number of the lay offs seem to fall into these categories.

Not saying firings are a good thing, or that this is whats happening with this company but it is something that has been happening, and it needs to happen in the long run otherwise gaming as a whole will continue to suffer.

It's not always as simple as that though, so binary thinking isn't really applying here as each situation is very much different

As one example, one of the studios that was closed by them is Volition and Saints Row reboot's reception was often cited as a big contributor

You could blame the dev for pandering, but two separate sources who looked into it learned from various workers that game's infamous direction was a result of corporate meddling. According to these sources, the publisher of this game (Deep Silver) was responsible for pushing for this new direction as they wanted a game like this, while the core part of the team were much more interested in doing a game that would feel more similar to Saints 2 and Saints 3, which happens to be exactly what fans of this series have wanted

Quite often accountability for this type of stuff goes on people who are very low on the totem pole are just doing what they're told, don't have creative roles on the project and later taking a hit for it, while execs, directors and leads who are the ones making these calls and are truly responsible, end up unharmed. That part sucks the most

 

[K' Dash]

Chairman positions are the ones getting cut first when AI starts getting implemented seriously at companies, can't wait.

 

[Jakk]

So...my take on this.

Do you folks not see how many mediocre games are released these days? Games that take years and years, costs assloads of money to make and end up looking and/or playing like shit? Lets use that Gollum game for example.

A lot of factors come into play, but ultimately if a company has workers that do more harm than good...they need to go.

You have a lot of entitled shits these days who spend more time complaining and want to put their politics in games and, "Need to make a bold statement." instead of making sure the game doesnt suck.

Those folks need to go. Hires that were only made to appease groups but lack talent....they need to go.

Look at the recent news, not just with this company but many others, a good number of the lay offs seem to fall into these categories.

Not saying firings are a good thing, or that this is whats happening with this company but it is something that has been happening, and it needs to happen in the long run otherwise gaming as a whole will continue to suffer.

But the ordinary level workers have absolutely no say on what the game is and isn't going to be. The average game dev Joe can't just come to work on Monday and decide that today he's going to add whatever he wants to the game.

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

You could blame the dev for pandering, but two separate sources who looked into it learned from various workers that game's infamous direction was a result of corporate meddling. According to these sources, the publisher of this game (Deep Silver) was responsible for pushing for this new direction as they wanted a game like this, while the core part of the team were much more interested in doing a game that would feel more similar to Saints 2 and Saints 3, which happens to be exactly what fans of this series have wanted

Who were the two sources and what specifically was the meddling? I'm always surprised when people are willing to take sides after only hearing one side of the story.

 

[StereoVsn]

People defending this shit. You do realize that the reason they are in a hurry to close most studios isn’t because the studios themselves can’t be profitable but because Embracer as a parent company ran up whole bunch of debt.

They did that because they took advantage of cheap (at the time) credit buying up everything in site, thinking they can get a multi $billion investment from the Saudis. That fell through and now they are on the hook for servicing that debt which is now a lot more costlier with higher interest rates.

So they are closing as much as they can as fast as they can so they can cut enough cost to stay afloat a bit longer and pray for a miracle. Except as AA game publisher they need to rely on a lot of mildly profitable projects that would add up, not on a game making bank.

So in short, it’s the dumbass Embracer management that got the company in this situation in the first place and the C series execs and the board should really be the first to go. But that’s not how things work so Studios are being closed and employees are being laid off.

I suspect the whole thing will implode completely in a year or so.

 

[Dazraell]

Who were the two sources and what specifically was the meddling? I'm always surprised when people are willing to take sides after only hearing one side of the story.

Well, it's always worth to take it with a grain of salt. But considering that Embracer moved Volition from Deep Silver to Gearbox before their collapse can imply something was going on

I can give you one of them right now - Matt McMuscles. He's a very credible youtuber who has a full series dedicated to development of games and movies. He does tons of work on researching them and tries his best to talk anonymously with multiple people who were close to development to see their takes at what happened. Other source was a someone who is well-known from Saints Row community, but I don't remember his name. Both of them had similar reports though. Anyhow, in the video I linked that first guy talks quite extensively about it

As for what was reported by them - Volition was bouncing around with continuing Saints series and then rebooting it with making a game similar to Saints 2 and Saints 3. The game was supposed to be more grounded and darker like Saints 2, but still has some silly ideas like the third game. Deep Silver's execs didn't liked this take and said to them they're more interested in doing a story about quirky group of friends that they felt could be more marketable

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

Well, it's always worth to take it with a grain of salt. But considering that Embracer moved Volition from Deep Silver to Gearbox before their collapse can imply something was going on

I can give you one of them right now - Matt McMuscles. He's a very credible youtuber who has a full series dedicated to development of games and movies. He does tons of work on researching them and tries his best to talk anonymously with multiple people who were close to development to see their takes at what happened. Other source was a someone who is well-known from Saints Row community, but I don't remember his name. Both of them had similar reports though. Anyhow, in the video I linked that first guy talks quite extensively about it

As for what was reported by them - Volition was bouncing around with continuing Saints series and then rebooting it with making a game similar to Saints 2 and Saints 3. The game was supposed to be more grounded and darker like Saints 2, but still has some silly ideas like the third game. Deep Silver's execs didn't liked this take and said to them they're more interested in doing a story about quirky group of friends that they felt could be more marketable

So we have...

Embracer CEO saying something as controversial as a Hallmark card and people getting upset with him.

A Youtuber named Matt McMuscles saying he talked to multiple people who blamed the CEO.

And the multiple people said they wanted a darker tone for Saints Row 2 but were forced to make it light hearted. As if the tone was the reason Saints Row bombed.

I'm physically incapable of putting stock into any of this. It's all unbelievably low quality hearsay.

What I think is happening is people wanting to believe a certain narrative before collecting enough quality evidence because it makes them feel good in some weird way. I appreciate your response but I can't believe something with such low quality evidence and we haven't heard the other side of the story.

That being said, GAAS makes me happy in a weird way so if this makes y'all happy and you're not hurting anyone, more power to ya.

 

[Kadve]

I can give you one of them right now - Matt McMuscles. He's a very credible youtuber who has a full series dedicated to development of games and movies. He does tons of work on researching them and tries his best to talk anonymously with multiple people who were close to development to see their takes at what happened. Other source was a someone who is well-known from Saints Row community, but I don't remember his name. Both of them had similar reports though. Anyhow, in the video I linked that first guy talks quite extensively about it

The thing ive noticed about Matt though is that he is an entertainer fist and a historian second. In the after mentioned Saint Row episode for example he completely glossed over the way Volition mishandled the backlash to the reboot and sounded more like they were insulting their own fanbase for not wanting it. And most of his research tends to come from a single source seemingly without any cross-examination done.

 

[Raven117]

He is talking about gaming companies. Most of which over hired during covid.

He wasn’t saying individuals

 

[Krappadizzle]

"It's tough for everyone, we just have to get through this together. Well, you have to find a way. Good luck."

 

[Dazraell]

So we have...

A Youtuber named Matt McMuscles saying he talked to multiple people who blamed the CEO.

And the multiple people said they wanted a darker tone for Saints Row 2 but were forced to make it light hearted. As if the tone was the reason Saints Row bombed.

I'm physically incapable of putting stock into any of this. It's all unbelievably low quality hearsay.

I never said they blamed CEO. Deep Silver is a subsidiary of Embracer. They have their own team of execs and people who make strategic choices. According to these stories, executive take at what Saints Row reboot should have been differed from what devs have pitched and they decided to bet on that card. This was reported by two different people, each of them having different sources. And I just acknolwedged it

All I tried to say was a response to other poster that every story behind project or studio shut down is different and taking binary approach with the outcome that future projects will be better without laid off people isn't really good take as usually a lot of people who made certain decisions are the ones who keeps their job and ones who are laid-off are people who just did what they were told

Either way, you asked me where I heard it, and I said where by providing receipts. I'm not really sure why it's my job to "convince" you to anything though

The thing ive noticed about Matt though is that he is an entertainer fist and a historian second. In the after mentioned Saint Row episode for example he completely glossed over the way Volition mishandled the backlash to the reboot and sounded more like they were insulting their own fanbase for not wanting it. And most of his research tends to come from a single source seemingly without any cross-examination done.

I made sure to watch that video now and he mentioned one source. I also looked for other guy who mentioned similar thing. His name is Flippy, the guy who knew devs at Volition and was very clear his knowledge came from multiple sources, although he didn't wanted to say from whom exactly he heard it. Which I guess is understandable as it might be under breaking NDA about stuff devs aren't legally allowed to say

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

I never said they blamed CEO. Deep Silver is a subsidiary of Embracer. They have their own team of execs and people who make strategic choices. According to these stories, executive take at what Saints Row reboot should have been differed from what devs have pitched and they decided to bet on that card. This was reported by two different people, each of them having different sources. And I just acknolwedged it

All I tried to say was a response to other poster that every story behind project or studio shut down is different and taking binary approach with the outcome that future projects will be better without laid off people isn't really good take as usually a lot of people who made certain decisions are the ones who keeps their job and ones who are laid-off are people who just did what they were told

Either way, you asked me where I heard it, and I said where by providing receipts. I'm not really sure why it's my job to "convince" you to anything though


I made sure to watch that video now and he mentioned one source. I also looked for other guy who mentioned similar thing. His name is Flippy, the guy who knew devs at Volition and was very clear his knowledge came from multiple sources, although he didn't wanted to say from whom exactly he heard it. Which I guess is understandable as it might be under breaking NDA about stuff devs aren't legally allowed to say

Don't you question the role of human nature in all this though?

People got laid off due to poor performance.

Obviously you're going to find a number of disgruntled employees who try to shift blame elsewhere. "It's not my fault. It's the fault of the guy who fired me. Who can I talk to to bash my boss?"

Then your finding Youtubers who are more than happy to spread their narrative for them.

Haven't you all met a million people like this before? "It's my bosses fault" people?

I'm not saying I know one way or the other but the quality of information we have on this story is putrid.

 

[simpatico]

He's not wrong. My industry has it's fair share of layoffs. The idea is to grow your skill set so once it happens you get a new job on the way home from the layoff. That's a better route than writing a crying journal about it on the internet. Improvise. Adapt. Overcome. Tactical. Espionage. Action.

 

[Dazraell]

Don't you question the role of human nature in all this though?

People got laid off due to poor performance.

Obviously you're going to find a number of disgruntled employees who try to shift blame elsewhere. "It's not my fault. It's the fault of the guy who fired me. Who can I talk to to bash my boss?"

Then your finding Youtubers who are more than happy to spread their narrative for them.

Haven't you all met a million people like this before? "It's my bosses fault" people?

I'm not saying I know one way or the other but the quality of information we have on this story is putrid.

Bruh, there are various stories about Deep Silver over these years that can give this some credibility. I mean not to look far, just look at Dead Island 2 development. This game had 4 developers over its lifecycle. Do you really believe each of them beside the final dev were so incompetent that they had to be replaced?

Actually, original dev didn't made the sequel for a very similar reason as what is claimed that happened with Saints Row's reboot. Deep Silver wanted a very different take at Dead Island 2 than Techland had in mind. Techland was so confident in their take that they decided to part ways with Deep Silver and create a new IP out of that pitch. This game they had in mind was Dying Light. And for that there are actually multiple claims, including direct quotes by Techland's CEO who confirmed these rumors. Isn't really that far-fetched that the same publisher who already done something like that in the past might have done it with other IP? Shocking thought, right?

Also to get ahead, I'm not going to give you any more receipts as all you do is keep saying that you know better while not having anything to back your own claims.

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

Bruh, there are various stories about Deep Silver over these years that can give this some credibility. I mean not to look far, just look at Dead Island 2 development. This game had 4 developers over its lifecycle. Do you really believe each of them beside the final dev were so incompetent that they had to be replaced?

Actually, original dev didn't made the sequel for a very similar reason as what is claimed that happened with Saints Row's reboot. Deep Silver wanted a very different take at Dead Island 2 than Techland had in mind. Techland was so confident in their take that they decided to part ways with Deep Silver and create a new IP out of that pitch. This game they had in mind was Dying Light. And for that there are actually multiple claims, including direct quotes by Techland's CEO who confirmed these rumors. Isn't really that far-fetched that the same publisher who already done something like that in the past might have done it with other IP? Shocking thought, right?

Also to get ahead, I'm not going to give you any more receipts as all you do is keep saying that you know better while not having anything to back your own claims.

Here's what I think happened.

Embracer CEO buys a bunch of cheap AA studios at a time when games industry is booming (and AA is wilting).

This gives these studios a few more years of life they otherwise wouldn't have had. These studios failed to capitalize on their life extension because they continued to make the types of games that put them in the crappy spot that put them their in the first place.

Disgruntled employees, by their very nature, love to put the blame on other people. Clickbait games media loves to find these disgruntled employees and share their one side of the story and present it as fact.

Then you say "There are multiple stories of disgruntled employees blaming their boss...and you can't present the other side of the conflict with reciepts...therefore I'm probably correct." You don't HAVE to believe a narrative when you can't hear both sides of the story.

The biggest mistake I'm willing to lay at the hands of Embracer CEO is buying the wrong types of studios who made the wrong types of games. That seems more plausible though not nearly as clickbaity. Villains are much more exciting to create.

 

[Jakk]

Don't you question the role of human nature in all this though?

People got laid off due to poor performance.

Obviously you're going to find a number of disgruntled employees who try to shift blame elsewhere. "It's not my fault. It's the fault of the guy who fired me. Who can I talk to to bash my boss?"

Then your finding Youtubers who are more than happy to spread their narrative for them.

Haven't you all met a million people like this before? "It's my bosses fault" people?

I'm not saying I know one way or the other but the quality of information we have on this story is putrid.

You can't seriously think they laid off 8% of the workforce due to performance reasons, can you?

I'm sorry, but IMO you have some very weird takes here. They literally announced the restructuring after the failed $2 billion deal. They kept acquiring more and more studios and now they are in debt. This is a prime example of a badly managed company.

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

You can't seriously think they laid off 8% of the workforce due to performance reasons, can you?

I'm sorry, but IMO you have some very weird takes here. They literally announced the restructuring after the failed $2 billion deal. They kept acquiring more and more studios and now they are in debt. This is a prime example of a badly managed company.

I think they laid off the 8% of the lowest performing part of the workforce.

I already said that buying AA studios looks more and more like a strategic blunder...but I don't think those AA studios are swimming without Embracer either. The AA market is in flames. Does it really matter who's publishing them?

 

[El Muerto]

They just need to fire the CEO. There's no way this company can succeed with that shitbag in charge. He ran the company in the ground. The stock is cheap, maybe i'll buy in and sit in the shareholder meeting just like that one guy did with Nintendo asking for F-zero.

 

[rkofan87]

he is not wrong imo.

 

[SantaC]

Has anything noteworthy been released under Embracer?

Biomutant

 

[Dazraell]

Here's what I think happened.

Embracer CEO buys a bunch of cheap AA studios at a time when games industry is booming (and AA is wilting).

This gives these studios a few more years of life they otherwise wouldn't have had. These studios failed to capitalize on their life extension because they continued to make the types of games that put them in the crappy spot that put them their in the first place.

Disgruntled employees, by their very nature, love to put the blame on other people. Clickbait games media loves to find these disgruntled employees and share their one side of the story and present it as fact.

Then you say "There are multiple stories of disgruntled employees blaming their boss...and you can't present the other side of the conflict with reciepts...therefore I'm probably correct." You don't HAVE to believe a narrative when you can't hear both sides of the story.

The biggest mistake I'm willing to lay at the hands of Embracer CEO is buying the wrong types of studios who made the wrong types of games. That seems more plausible though not nearly as clickbaity. Villains are much more exciting to create.

I'm not even gonna comment it. This is a really big hot take

 

[Spukc]

Himself included, right?

nah unlike CEO's devs are fucking lazy

 

[j0hnnix]

Typical CEO preparing for layoffs.

 

[RavageX]

It's not always as simple as that though, so binary thinking isn't really applying here as each situation is very much different

As one example, one of the studios that was closed by them is Volition and Saints Row reboot's reception was often cited as a big contributor

You could blame the dev for pandering, but two separate sources who looked into it learned from various workers that game's infamous direction was a result of corporate meddling. According to these sources, the publisher of this game (Deep Silver) was responsible for pushing for this new direction as they wanted a game like this, while the core part of the team were much more interested in doing a game that would feel more similar to Saints 2 and Saints 3, which happens to be exactly what fans of this series have wanted

Quite often accountability for this type of stuff goes on people who are very low on the totem pole are just doing what they're told, don't have creative roles on the project and later taking a hit for it, while execs, directors and leads who are the ones making these calls and are truly responsible, end up unharmed. That part sucks the most

But the ordinary level workers have absolutely no say on what the game is and isn't going to be. The average game dev Joe can't just come to work on Monday and decide that today he's going to add whatever he wants to the game.

Very true points that I agree with 100%. In my perfect world, the layoffs would also include the type of people who sit and look at what is "trending" and decides that somehow XYZ needs to be the main focus/direction of a game and expects said game to fly off the charts. I am familiar with this type of company/CEO/whatever. One that I resigned from was similar. Took over a good, successful company that had direction, customer loyalty, VALUES and (mostly) happy employees and turned it into a number/trend chaser. It didn't matter what you did as long as you increased numbers and they also treated the employees as numbers.

I always found the reports funny when numbers went up temporarily due to their tactics, but the next few months there would be drastic drops, often worse then they previously were and they (the CEOS, etc) would be absolutely clueless of why. Same with high employee turnover which was never a big problem before.

You can guess how that went for them.

 

[Dr. Wilkinson]

They way way way over invested in 2020-2022 and now they have to shrink themselves down to a sustainable size. It’s just poor management, to be frank. Any smart business people there would’ve known that the insane growth of videogames in 2020 was due to lockdowns. It wasn’t just this magical industry that has no demand ceiling.

And yes Animal Crossing launching within 2 weeks of the lockdown was like literally the best timing of all time. Nintendo got damn lucky, they scheduled that date like 9 months before. It was amazing.