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[richman555]

Well this is not surprising based on the fact I have heard Nintendo doesn't want to sell this system at a loss. The hardware will likely be on par with PS4/Xbox 1 with maybe a few extra graphics 'wrinkles' which comes at little cost. Also, if they choose to stream games to devices/controllers that could only slow things down a little bit further. Based on all of that, its would be hard to make a comparison, but very likely much better than Wii U.

Personally, I would like Nintendo to avoid the expensive controller pitfall and go back to traditional wireless controllers (think Gamecube wavebirds). This would allow them to get as much gaming hardware for the buck as possible.

 

[LoveCake]

I remember all the discussions when the WiiU was announced that it wouldn't be x86-64 and how it would effect the system with difficulty in porting games from the x86-64 consoles/PC's to the WiiU's PowerPC architecture.

PowerPC and ARM processors follow a RISC (Reduced Instruction Set Computer) architecture, while x86 processors are CISC (Complex Instruction set Architecture) Nintendo have seemingly switched from PowerPC to ARM as it's RISC (the 3DS uses ARM), so isn't this going to lead to the same arguments over again from the WiiU specs announcement and also have a impact on the porting of games, there are a lot of ARM devices out-there but ARM is mostly used for a enabling a low power device (which is what Nintendo likes) and most ARM processors are in mobile devices, so is this leading to a hand-held that connects to a home device for home gaming (that may have some sort of hardware acceleration).

Being RISC the NX is going to be backwards compatible with the WiiU one would think, but is this even an issue, I would think that the majority of people interested in buying an NX would be WiiU owners anyway, being backwards compatible does give the NX an instant library of games, which will only cater for people without a WiiU, but are people without a WiiU interesting in a NX, this is nothing but a vicious circle.

Having had all the Nintendo systems from the SNES to the WiiU (still own) my excitement for the next Nintendo console has never been lower, Nintendo like to do their own thing and go in their own direction, but this direction is seemingly a different one to where gamers are going :/

I think the longer Nintendo don't say anything about the NX the more damage the leaks and speculation does to Nintendo and the NX.

 

[Deku Tree]

I honestly don't care if it competes with the PS4K in terms of power. I want NX to have a good price and I want Nintendo to be able to make a good supply of top tier games, and all that would be hard or impossible for them with top tier specs. Their games already look damn good. Nintendo is focused on the kids market, not the enthusiast market. And I really hope they survive in the kids market. The alternative is to embrace our mobile gaming overlords and I want more options than that.

 

[axisofweevils]

Yep, this makes a lot of sense to me.

 

[LinkToTheFuture]

I still remember how much "sources" were wrong before the PS4 and XB1 reveal, most of them (with Arthur Gies among them) claimed that the XB1 is more powerful and that the devs are more impressed by it than the PS4 and other similar nonsense.

I'm not buying anything until reveal.

This. The conspiracy theorist in me thinks that this stuff is all just one big hype show for the publishers. So much mis information and drama from industry "insiders" to continuously drum up speculation & discussion so the ultimate reveal is even bigger than it should be.

 

[ozfunghi]

Let's say that there are two glaring problems with metrics like paper FLOPS (assuming it's what Emily is referring to).

First one is that paper metrics are normally just that - paper metrics. They give you an upper bound of your hypothetical performance, but your sustained performance is a result of much more complex factors and does not need be anywhere near the hypothetical. You can have two parts, A and B, where A has higher hypothetical FLOPS than B, but B does higher sustained FLOPS than A. Actually, reality is full of such examples - current NV vs AMD GPU FLOPS, for instance.

Second big problem is with the definition of 'power' per se. Even when on paper, power is not just FLOPS - it's not just FLOPS for GPUs, and it's definitely not for CPUs. There are a handful of other hw limits that one'd care about before pronouncing this or that part better on-paper than its peer. And that's still on paper.

Well, she specifically goes out of her way to "bold" the words "raw power" compared to XBO's raw power, in her article. She keeps referring to it as "raw" power and further as "apples to orranges" in terms of overal performance. That in combination with the actual news she has of it being a modern and custom chip, seems like the logical conclusion that the modern chip with the same raw power as an outdated chip, would outperform it.

Maybe i'm just trying to be possitive here, but this makes most sense to me.

The most funny part about this discussion:

- XBO = underpowered shit
- PS4 = I'm ok with it

Obviously, the PS4 can render more branches! See top left corner!

Spoiler

But less monks

 

[suddenlyissoon]

Same old Nintendo. Gimmicks and relying on their old titles

 

[E-Cat]

First one is that paper metrics are normally just that - paper metrics. They give you an upper bound of your hypothetical performance, but your sustained performance is a result of much more complex factors and does not need be anywhere near the hypothetical. You can have two parts, A and B, where A has higher hypothetical FLOPS than B, but B does higher sustained FLOPS than A. Actually, reality is full of such examples - current NV vs AMD GPU FLOPS, for instance.

There's the problem, though - comparing AMD flops to NVIDIA flops. Conversely, if you compare an AMD GPU to an AMD GPU, you get a virtually linear ratio of their respective average performances.

PS4 ~1.8 (AMD) TFLOPS; Xbox One ~1.3 (AMD) TFLOPS. PS4 ~40% more powerful than Xbox One? Hmm, could be.

It's the most useful tool we have for comparing two somewhat similar chips, even if not perfect.

 

[ThoughtsOfSpeaking]

Disappointed once again. Console Makers, I'm a pc gamer. I'm not going to buy an underpowered box of obsolete parts.

If you are a PC only gamer, you have no interest in a Nintendo console anyway, just on price of software alone.

 

[marmoka]

I'm disappointed with Nintendo. They could release a powerful console, but no.

 

[Windforce]

Well this is not surprising based on the fact I have heard Nintendo doesn't want to sell this system at a loss. The hardware will likely be on par with PS4/Xbox 1 with maybe a few extra graphics 'wrinkles' which comes at little cost. Also, if they choose to stream games to devices/controllers that could only slow things down a little bit further. Based on all of that, its would be hard to make a comparison, but very likely much better than Wii U.

Personally, I would like Nintendo to avoid the expensive controller pitfall and go back to traditional wireless controllers (think Gamecube wavebirds). This would allow them to get as much gaming hardware for the buck as possible.

I don't think they need to release an outdated machine again just to not take a loss. Sony has the strongest machine and it was not losing money. Unless Nintendo is putting in an expensive controller again, or want to sell the console at $99 from the start, it is risky to go so underpowered.

With PS5/"XB2" coming in what, 2018/2019, and NX in 2017, there is too little time, it will be again a Wii U case of gap in power.

 

[richman555]

Well, she specifically goes out of her way to "bold" the words "raw power" compared to XBO's raw power, in her article. She keeps referring to it as "raw" power and further as "apples to orranges" in terms of overal performance.

Nintendo loves their custom Power PC chips historically. Anytime you mention Apples to Oranges comparison, it always comes back to architecture differences. It is either this, or streaming to controllers which I am sure takes some performance hit.

 

[Eric_S]

There where talks a while back about a custom AMD ARM core, but iirc that would more target the enterprise/ low power server market? Could be a derivative I guess? Or probably more likely, it's A72 based with a few tweaks here and there, as for GPU... around 1,4 Tflop per the rumor?

*This post is brought to you by, Baseless speculation is fun TM*

 

[blu]

Well, she specifically goes out of her way to "bold" the words "raw power" compared to XBO's raw power, in her article. She keeps referring to it as "raw" power and further as "apples to orranges" in terms of overal performance. That in combination with the actual news she has of it being a modern and custom chip, seems like the logical conclusion that the modern chip with the same raw power as an outdated chip, would outperform it.

Maybe i'm just trying to be possitive here, but this makes most sense to me.

The thing is, you don't need to be 'trying to be positive' about this news at all ; )

Because it's not a situation-changing news per se. Vulkan for NX is great news. Developers not wanting to do game X on the NX for whatever reason would be bad news. But a console turning out to be in the ps4/xbone performance *ballpark* is a non-news, as it should not have any notable library (read: ports) implications. Rest assured that developers will not ditch their current ps4/xbone user bases.

 

[richman555]

I don't think they need to release an outdated machine again just to not take a loss. Sony has the strongest machine and it was not sold at a loss. Unless Nintendo is putting in an expensive controller again, or want to sell the console at $99 from the start, it is risky to go so underpowered unless they pull a Wii again.

With PS5/"XB2" coming in what, 2018/2019, and NX in 2017, there is too little time, it will be again a Wii U case of gap in power.

Are you sure PS4 wasn't sold at a loss initially? They had a low price point and a lot of memory at launch. Anyhow, an outdated chip is the wrong term to use, it would be a brand new chip which then overall comes in the power range of PS4/Xbox 1. Almost exactly the same thing they did with Wii U just a generation previously.

 

[nekomix]

Well, a new rumour, why should I trust it more than the other ones?

 

[KingBroly]

Are you sure PS4 wasn't sold at a loss initially? They had a low price point and a lot of memory at launch. Anyhow, an outdated chip is the wrong term to use, it would be a brand new chip which then overall comes in the power range of PS4/Xbox 1. Almost exactly the same thing they did with Wii U just a generation previously.

PS4 was sold at a loss initially, but it was a pretty small one.

 

[Meesh]

The most funny part about this discussion:

- XBO = underpowered shit
- PS4 = I'm ok with it


The most important part about NX is that it's easy to port to, the visuals for multi-platform games should only be a topic to people who like to debate about the amount of trees in a scene or whatever there is to debate about...

I for my part was hoping for above Xbone levels if only it meant to interest those tech savvy, lend to longevity, and satisfy those core gamers with perceived value under the hood. Some pretty paper thin reasons but it's about Nintendo image right now and I just feel the NX needs a slight competitive edge, they need to appear strong and make a statement that they've come to play ball this time and are basically gunning for our monies.

All I can imagine from this is whoever has dev kits is either pleased with their power+gimmick this round enough to believe to put their products on the box, or are thinking wait and see because the NX is underpowered and potentially confusing...either way it's a different and unproven platform so it's a scary prospect considering the recent Wiiu.

So while I don't think under Xbone levels is shit... I do think it sends a message of sorts, if not reinforces their longstanding tradition of modest HW with a new way to play mentality that at times frustrates and amazes people at the same time.
Edit: personally I'm growing weary of some of their "traditions."

 

[Mpl90]

I for my part was hoping for above Xbone levels if only it meant to interest those tech savvy, lend to longevity, and satisfy those core gamers with perceived value under the hood. Some pretty paper thin reasons but it's about Nintendo image right now and I just feel the NX needs a slight competitive edge, they need to appear strong and make a statement that they've come to play ball this time and are basically gunning for our monies.

All I can imagine from this is whoever has dev kits is either pleased with their power+gimmick this round enough to believe to put their products on the box, or are thinking wait and see because the NX is underpowered and potentially confusing...either way it's a different and unproven platform so it's a scary prospect considering the recent Wiiu.

So while I don't think under Xbone levels is shit... I do think it sends a message of sorts, if not reinforces their longstanding tradition of modest HW with a new way to play mentality that at times frustrates and amazes people at the same time.

...But going by the article itself, NX's baseline (i.e. the most pessimistic case) is around Xbox One, since she says it's much closer to Xbox One than PS4 (One < NX << PS4) and also that "this could be stretching it a bit", which does NOT translate in "lower than Xbox One". Also, she siad this references to "raw power". Apples to apples comparisons are not as effective in this case.

 

[ozfunghi]

I for my part was hoping for above Xbone levels if only it meant to interest those tech savvy, lend to longevity, and satisfy those core gamers with perceived value under the hood. Some pretty paper thin reasons but it's about Nintendo image right now and I just feel the NX needs a slight competitive edge, they need to appear strong and make a statement that they've come to play ball this time and are basically gunning for our monies.

All I can imagine from this is whoever has dev kits is either pleased with their power+gimmick this round enough to believe to put their products on the box, or are thinking wait and see because the NX is underpowered and potentially confusing...either way it's a different and unproven platform so it's a scary prospect considering the recent Wiiu.

So while I don't think under Xbone levels is shit... I do think it sends a message of sorts, if not reinforces their longstanding tradition of modest HW with a new way to play mentality that at times frustrates and amazes people at the same time.

I still don't think anything she says needs to be interpreted as below XBO performance level, quite the contrary.

 

[KingBroly]

I still don't think anything she says needs to be interpreted as below XBO performance level, quite the contrary.

She says it being closer to XBO than PS4 might be a stretch as well, so that's where people say it could be weaker than XBO.

I just fucking hope it's not so we can put to bed this 'Nintendo needs a Sony/MS spec'd device to get third party support' crap, one way or another.

 

[richman555]

I for my part was hoping for above Xbone levels if only it meant to interest those tech savvy, lend to longevity, and satisfy those core gamers with perceived value under the hood. Some pretty paper thin reasons but it's about Nintendo image right now and I just feel the NX needs a slight competitive edge, they need to appear strong and make a statement that they've come to play ball this time and are basically gunning for our monies.

All I can imagine from this is whoever has dev kits is either pleased with their power+gimmick this round enough to believe to put their products on the box, or are thinking wait and see because the NX is underpowered and potentially confusing...either way it's a different and unproven platform so it's a scary prospect considering the recent Wiiu.

So while I don't think under Xbone levels is shit... I do think it sends a message of sorts, if not reinforces their longstanding tradition of modest HW with a new way to play mentality that at times frustrates and amazes people at the same time.

I agree, I had hoped for the same thing with Wii U where the system could be a little more powerful (for a few years until the next Sony/MS iterations).

Also you are correct about sending a message. Did Nintendo learn from Wii U mistakes?

Historically, Nintendo didn't always use modest hardware, it only started with the original Wii where use of expensive motion controls were the trade off. For their time, both N64 and Gamecube faired pretty well power wise.

 

[Meesh]

...But going by the article itself, NX's baseline (i.e. the most pessimistic case) is around Xbox One, since she says it's much closer to Xbox One than PS4 (One < NX << PS4) and also that "this could be stretching it a bit", which does NOT translate in "lower than Xbox One". Also, she siad this references to "raw power". Apples to apples comparisons are not as effective in this case.

My apologies, I may have interpreted it in a more negative light. (Natural pessimist here lol) Seems usually when you "can't directly compare" our apple to apples/oranges Nintendo tends to fall short in one way or the other. Thanks for the clarification though.

 

[-hadouken]

what Shigeru Miyamoto said:

we look at it just from the sense of offering a system that consumes less power and makes less noise

Hard to take this seriously when they fail to stop the fookin' WiiU disc drive from thrashing away noisily when browsing the e-shop etc. Nintendo's pile of money has shielded them from reality for far too long.

 

[Pokemaniac]

Hard to take this seriously when they fail to stop the fookin' WiiU disc drive from thrashing away noisily when browsing the e-shop etc. Nintendo's pile of money has shielded them from reality for far too long.

Unless you have a weird definition of thrashing, this is simply not true.

 

[OsirisBlack]

Nintendo will be fine.

 

[DragonSworne]

So Nintendo is still obsessed with putting lower wattage overpriced chips for power ratio in their consoles?

 

[KratosEnergyDrink]

Something seriously wacky, considering how much the gimmick would have to eat into the hardware resources for the console to manage to be as weak as Xbox One.

Depends on the price.

 

[Rodin]

Nintendo will be fine.

Tell us more.

Depends on the price.

.

Even if it's around xbox one level, but it sells for 250$, perceived value would be pretty high.

 

[DragonSworne]

Nintendo overpays for custom weak chips so they can save on electricity.

It makes no sense at all. It's the reason why the Wii U was so underpowered and overpriced.

 

[Neoxon]

Nintendo will be fine.

So are you agreeing with Emily Rogers? Also, do you know if the NX Platform (as in the family of devices, if they're going that route) will use an ARM CPU?

 

[Ladekabel]

wasn't she wrong last time?why exactly do we give her credit,what did she got right?

Recently the Paper Mario for Wii U.

 

[KratosEnergyDrink]

Same old Nintendo. Gimmicks and relying on their old titles

*eyeroll* Same old uninformed posts.

Nintendo published more new games in recent years, unrelated to previous IPs, than any other publisher. Sometimes they are successful (like Splatoon) sometimes not (like Wonderful 101).

 

[richman555]

Nintendo overpays for custom weak chips so they can save on electricity.

It makes no sense at all. It's the reason why the Wii U was so underpowered and overpriced.

I would say its more the expensive controllers they wanted to use. To make the console reasonably priced, they had to make the rest less expensive. Saving electricity is just a benefit of that.

 

[Wildean]

If Nintendo comes up with a fps control method that is as revolutionary as was the analog stick before. If it's good enough that hardcore players, e-sport players, can't play without it.. Nintendo is suddenly king again (IF the console is not terribly underpowered obviously..)

Introducing the analogue stick on N64 did not make them "king" again: others just copied it. Trying to become the go-to console for CoD style games is the worst thing Nintendo could try.

 

[Zen Mu]

As long as it's at least on par with an Xbox One, I'll buy it. I just hope whatever the "gimmick" is this time around doesn't put me off like the Wii U tablet did.

 

[ozfunghi]

She says it being closer to XBO than PS4 might be a stretch as well, so that's where people say it could be weaker than XBO.

I just fucking hope it's not so we can put to bed this 'Nintendo needs a Sony/MS spec'd device to get third party support' crap, one way or another.

She specifically says "raw" power, repeatedly. She also talks about the chip being modern/custom. I can only assume that a modern/custom chip with the same "raw" power, will outperform an outdated chip if the same "raw power".

 

[orioto]

Introducing the analogue stick on N64 did not make them "king" again: others just copied it. Trying to become the go-to console for CoD style games is the worst thing Nintendo could try.

FPS was not a thing yet. If it was, they would have destroyed the competition with the analog. But fps couldn't be a thing before the analog on console so... There wasn't call of duty yet..

 

[Joelstinton14]

The most funny part about this discussion:

- XBO = underpowered shit
- PS4 = I'm ok with it


The most important part about NX is that it's easy to port to, the visuals for multi-platform games should only be a topic to people who like to debate about the amount of trees in a scene or whatever there is to debate about:




Even PS4K and XBONE1.5 have the problem that they can't ignore 60.000.000 PS4ONE-Users.

Pretty much this.

Also i think one of the reasons why we are getting PS4K/1.5 is that selling a PS5/X2 on graphics will be a much harder sell than it has been before. That not even taking into consideration the cost in doing so, from a hardware and software perspective. Instead we are probably going to get rolling incremental upgrades that slightly improve performance and efficiency, that's about it.

If the NX is in between X1 and PS4 levels it will be fine. It seems we are close to hitting the ceiling between performance, price and efficiency.

 

[E-Cat]

She says it being closer to XBO than PS4 might be a stretch as well, so that's where people say it could be weaker than XBO.

No, that does not follow.

I made this graph to illustrate my point:

See, according to Emily, it would be a stretch to call NX as being "much closer to Xbox One than PS4", because that would imply the above situation.
But that does not change the fact that NX is still located somewhere in that line segment. You have to fall into the line. Otherwise, why have the line?

 

[KratosEnergyDrink]

But what i mean is, let's not fool ourselves thinking control innovation are bad in themselves. If Nintendo comes up with a fps control method that is as revolutionary as was the analog stick before. If it's good enough that hardcore players, e-sport players, can't play without it.. Nintendo is suddenly king again (IF the console is not terribly underpowered obviously..)

The Wiimote+Nunchuk are the best controls available for FPS on consoles. Much faster and more precise than analog stick. In Wii games that allowed both methods (Gamepad and Wiimote) the Gamepad users, even the real good ones, had not a chance against Wiimote+Nunchuk players. But not all shooters on Wii/WiiU got the Wiimote controls right, some even gimped Wiimote controls to give Gamepad players a chance.

 

[-hadouken]

Unless you have a weird definition of thrashing, this is simply not true.

You're most welcome to infer that I'm weird for not wanting an optical drive to be spinning unnecessarily (tho you'll find that I'm not alone). What you can't argue is that it goes directly contrary to Miyamoto's hardware philosophy in that interview. Running the drive wastes energy, whilst increasing heat and noise. It comes down to Nintendo engineers being out of touch with the competition and what consumers want. I expect more of the same going forward.

 

[test_account]

x86's advantage on the desktop/server is about BC and intel tech (read: fab) superiority. x86's advantage in a console is immaterial.

The only real advantage is backwards compatibility. Those CPUs are designed for PCs/servers, PCs are x86, you want to maintain compatibility with all the software.
On the negative side there is a bit of overhead because the x86 instruction set is dated and CISC on the outside but all modern processors are RISC on the inside, and the translation that breaks down those complex instructions into (several) simpler instructions needs to happen. It's not a big deal on larger CPUs as far as I'm aware, but it's still a disadvantage.

I see. Is there any reason why there were bigger discussion about which CPU type Nintendo would use then? I remember seeing talk about keeping both the console and handheld close to eachother, but based on this, it sounds like its pretty much irrelevant if the console and handheld of NX uses completely different CPU types. Iwata said that Nintendo wanted to make their system closer to eachother to make game developement easier. I wonder why they didnt do this a lot earlier. Power difference would of course be an issue, but still.

 

[DragonSworne]

I would say its more the expensive controllers they wanted to use. To make the console reasonably priced, they had to make the rest less expensive. Saving electricity is just a benefit of that.

Then you would wrong. There is nothing in the screen that accounts for the high price. The Wii U wasn't expensive because of the gamepad.

The Wii U is weak because Ninteneo prioritized small form factor and low wattage when making a custom chip. Trying to get those features while making a powerful console is SUPER expensive. It's the reason why they settled on below last gen power. If Nintendo would have just gave a little on the form factor or wattage, Wii U would have been way more powerful for no extra cost.

 

[tapedeck]

I'll start off by saying I hope this isn't true and am gonna believe it's overly pessimistic till proven otherwise cause Nintendo really shouldn't be stupid enough to release a console on par with the Xbox One in Fucking 2017.

That said...if this is true then yeah I'm out. Nintendos stubborn refusal to make even a mildly competitive hardware configuration is pushing me away. I've owned every single Nintendo console and enjoyed them all but I don't nearly have the time to play games as much as I used to. I can't logically justify a 'Nintendo games only' system anymore which is no doubt what this will be with those specs and architecture.

 

[Freeman]

Thats one way to guarantee third parties wont support it and kill any hype. RIP.

edit:unless its also a portable, than I'm ok with it.

 

[Tatsumi Oga]

How does Emily Rogers keep leaking this stuff? I'm pretty sure these are no intended leaks by Nintendo.

So let me get this straight.... Sony is coming with a much better PS4, very likely to release September and will already bring an even bigger gap between that and Xbox One. Microsoft for sure isn't sitting still neither and will maybe announce a better Xbox for this year or at the latest sometime next year.

But Nintendo is coming with a console about as powerful as Xbox One in March? Why.... even.... bother?

 

[Wildean]

FPS was not a thing yet. If it was, they would have destroyed the competition with the analog. But fps couldn't be a thing before the analog on console so... There wasn't call of duty yet..

That's true, but that particular ship has sailed, and the modern FPS market is not natural Nintendo territory. Those games are all about highly-detailed realistic style graphics and online play, neither of which are Nintendo specialities (though the latter has improved a lot).

They are probably content with Splatoon as their online shooter franchise. Perhaps any innovation with the controls might be geared towards that rather than FPS.

 

[LordRaptor]

I see. Is there any reason why there were bigger discussion about which CPU type Nintendo would use then? I remember seeing talk about keeping both the console and handheld close to eachother, but based on this, it sounds like its pretty much irrelevant if the console and handheld of NX uses completely different CPU types.

It probably makes sense for the manufacturer of two different devices to use the same chipset in both, because the manufacturer is going to have to be doing pretty specific code for things like the OS where not having to write twice would be a benefit, but in terms of software support no, it doesn't really matter.
XCOM on an iPad is still XCOM, so is XCOM on a wintel PC, so is XCOM on a PPC Xbox 360

 

[E-Cat]

I'll start off by saying I hope this isn't true and am gonna believe it's overly pessimistic till proven otherwise cause Nintendo really shouldn't be stupid enough to release a console on par with the Xbox One in Fucking 2017.

Why should it be considered overly pessimistic? Nintendo's two previous consoles have been arguably more underpowered at the time of release.

The onus is on you for making such an outrageous claim as "Nintendo really shouldn't be stupid enough to release a console on par with the Xbox One in Fucking 2017".