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[Fersis]

Sup folks this is spo... i mean hi guys this is Fersis here!

Shoryuken inkblot wrote an interesting piece about the FGC and the eSports Leagues
Where eSports Leagues Go Wrong With Fighters

This is in response to Evil Genius Team Manager SirScoots rant about the FGC wanting to be left alone and keep being 'underground'

Heres a good writing about Dreamhack 'incident' by Mr Jared Check the James Chen comment.

So what are your thoughts about the subject?
Does the FGC has to learn and embrace the eSports League Model? Should it do its own thing regardless of the SC2,LoL, CS success stories?

 

[sixteen-bit]

Would be nice to see it blow up. I think fighting games probably the easiest competitive genre to watch and understand for outsiders. One screen, two players, pretty easy to follow.

I own the same cardigan Richard is wearing in that gif :/

 

[Jintor]

The model has to support the game, or I suppose specifically the game type, and the community that that game type fosters. You can't hammer a game-type into a league model, because the focus is on the game type and not the other way around. The model that the FGC has built works for the game type (though it is relatively low in comparison to the Starcraft community, but I think anecdotally at least it appears to be steadily growing) while whatever it is that the eSports Leagues have tried (apparently) doesn't work.

 

[danmaku]

Interesting read. Wow, I can't believe how bad WCG screwed up in 2005.

 

[Tain]

Yeah, nice read.

doa ultimate in 2005, lol

 

[Zeouterlimits]

Man, what is with the different E-Sports Communities insulting each other?

Ring of people looking down on each other.

 

[Deadman]

I had heard that the FGC and MLG didn't like each other but didn't know the details until now, what happened was pretty bad.

I started watching mvc3 streams after being linked to it from sc2 and i look at that community the way sc2 was in 2010. Small at the moment but with huge potential; they have hugely skilled players, great personalities and the game is flat out fun to watch.

I hope some organisation can really take this game to the masses to get it the attention it deserves. MLG did a really good job of that with sc2 and i think they could with mc3. Maybe with their past problems it wont be them, but i hope someone does it.

 

[TGMIII]

Here's the issue with becoming an "esport" and having everyone becoming sponsored and prize money for event coming from sponsors, once those sponsors pull out you're left with nothing. Case in point The CPL . The community was still on games like CS1.6, Quake 3 and such and companies like nvidia, intel and AMD weren't overly happy that their new hardware wasn't actually showing what it could do and that could possibly lead people to believe that the hardware sucks ass so they threaten to pull support unless new games are added. So new games that no one wanted to play were added and suddenly less people showed up to events and once the sponsors got wind of this support dropped left right and center. The same issues plagued WSVG and to some extent ESWC, mainly just sponsors deciding not to put money into esports, and CGL.

That's sort of a short hand version, there were a lot of other crooked things going on like players having to sign a contract that said they weren't allowed to tell people if they got paid or not and if they did it would void their payment but you get the gist of things.

With esport teams you've again got the issue of sponsors. In the past we've seen teams just vanish due to sponsors deciding that they want out, mYm is the last biggest team that I can recall, and just leave players stranded. There's even been examples of players being left in different countries having to pay their own way back because they just suddenly drop out. Right now the fighting game scene is pretty home grown, except the few sponsored players here and there, and in my opinion should stay like that. Maybe that means fighting games will never be huge but at least it means the scene goes out on its own terms rather than someone else calling the shots.

 

[zerojay]

First, for any of this to take off, you need Capcom to be on board. If they are not on board, you can't have your game in MLG or any of the other esports. Why? You need to get the rights to broadcast. Why wouldn't Capcom give it to them? Because they want to cultivate the grassroots tournaments like the FGC has now and doesn't want to see them disappear.

If MLG or any other group wants to bring the FGC to esports, they need to show Capcom and the community that it wouldn't get fucked up. How do you do that? You hire guys like the Ponders and inkblots and ShinBlankas and Keits and CEO Jebaileys of the community who are *trusted*. If Capcom sees that some of the guys behind the grassroots tourneys (and the biggest of them in Evo) will be a part of it, I think you'll see the attitudes about esports from the fighting game community and Capcom melt away.

And no, MLG won't kill the smaller grassroots tournaments no matter what.

 

[sprsk]

I say fuck getting lumped in with esports.

Fighting games are doing great on their own.

You don't see black jack being played at the Poker World Championships.

 

[LuchaShaq]

All I really know about the FGC is that everytime I try to ask questions in a stream or anything I get called every slur in the book.

No thanks! I'll stick to gameflying each new fighting game for a week or two until people get way better and then ditch it.

 

[Fersis]

First, for any of this to take off, you need Capcom to be on board. If they are not on board, you can't have your game in MLG or any of the other esports. Why? You need to get the rights to broadcast. Why wouldn't Capcom give it to them? Because they want to cultivate the grassroots tournaments like the FGC has now and doesn't want to see them disappear.

If MLG or any other group wants to bring the FGC to esports, they need to show Capcom and the community that it wouldn't get fucked up. How do you do that? You hire guys like the Ponders and inkblots and ShinBlankas and Keits and CEO Jebaileys of the community who are *trusted*. If Capcom sees that some of the guys behind the grassroots tourneys (and the biggest of them in Evo) will be a part of it, I think you'll see the attitudes about esports from the fighting game community and Capcom melt away.

And no, MLG won't kill the smaller grassroots tournaments no matter what.

SSFIV AE was on Dreamhack so Capcom its warming up to eSports leagues.
But the community still doubts about it.

And as the SRK article say the eSports Leagues dont want the Spooky's, Jebaileys, or Keits involvement.

 

[abstract alien]

I would say fighters are too specific, but I guess you could say the same for any game that can be played on pro level. I'm fine with it being how it is, as it feels more personal, but I'm not sure that is best for growth. It seems to be growing, but that may just be my perception.

 

[sixteen-bit]

I say fuck getting lumped in with esports.

Fighting games are doing great on their own.

That's not really true. The prize pots at fighting game tournaments are laughable. Especially at big events like Evo with strong international competition.

 

[abstract alien]

All I really know about the FGC is that everytime I try to ask questions in a stream or anything I get called every slur in the book.

No thanks! I'll stick to gameflying each new fighting game for a week or two until people get way better and then ditch it.

This might be for any stream chat ever. Come into a fighting stream thread on gaf and it is MUCH more friendly and informative. I know I've learned so much from our community in regards to becoming a better player and understanding things.

 

[TGMIII]

All I really know about the FGC is that everytime I try to ask questions in a stream or anything I get called every slur in the book.

No thanks! I'll stick to gameflying each new fighting game for a week or two until people get way better and then ditch it.

Go to ANY live stream of a tournament for ANY game and ask a question in chat. You'll get hundreds if not thousands of idiots trying to "troll" you, it's not just limited to fighting games. You'll find now, and I've seen more and more SC2 streams doing this, only subscribers are able to talk in chat due to how many idiots there are out there.

 

[zerojay]

SSFIV AE was on Dreamhack so Capcom its warming up to eSports leagues.
But the community still doubts about it.
.

As far as I know, Dreamhack simply didn't ask and put it on anyways, just as they did the last event.

 

[Fersis]

As far as I know, Dreamhack simply didn't ask and put it on anyways, just as they did the last event.

Didnt knew that. :0

 

[LegatoB]

That's not really true. The prize pots at fighting game tournaments are laughable. Especially at big events like Evo with strong international competition.

I guess that's an issue for the very, very top players? Maybe?

 

[SolarPowered]

All I really know about the FGC is that everytime I try to ask questions in a stream or anything I get called every slur in the book.

No thanks! I'll stick to gameflying each new fighting game for a week or two until people get way better and then ditch it.

You are posting on GAF. Come into the threads for advice. You'd be surprised by how nice we can be so long as you are not trying to make definitive statements with no grounds to back them up.

We even have tournament stream threads here to boot.

 

[lupinko]

I say fuck getting lumped in with esports.

Fighting games are doing great on their own.

You don't see black jack being played at the Poker World Championships.

I like this post.

 

[Grecco]

eSports and FGC dont mix, i get that some in the FGC want that hot pocket ad dollars, those bigger pots but forcing them to mix isnt the awnser.

 

[jobber]

Leave that shit for Asia. All these different genre of games shouldn't be lumped together anyway. shooters, turn based, racing, fighting, sports. Who's bright idea was it to put all these games together and form a "league"?

This ain't Nick Arcade son!

 

[Rice-Eater]

I say fuck getting lumped in with esports.

Fighting games are doing great on their own.

You don't see black jack being played at the Poker World Championships.

Big fighting game tournament and EVO put together great events with great turn outs, but in the end the result is the same. We have tiny pay outs compared to many of these E-Sport events. A lot of these E-Sport events have 10k+ prize for 1st place. Fighting game touranments have only produced a total of 3 events that have payed out at least 10k to 1st place(2 EVO's and Revalations) the past 2 years since SF4 blew up the scene.

I want to see SF4 or UMVC3 with big pay outs, but that will never happen without sponsors. And that may never happen unless the FGC can collaborate with the existing E-Sport companies. Some may be happy with a couple of hundred guys throwing 10 dollars into the pot, but I think it would be pretty sad if the community never goes beyond that.

 

[Q8D3vil]

Big fighting game tournament and EVO put together great events with great turn outs, but in the end the result is the same. We have tiny pay outs compared to many of these E-Sport events. A lot of these E-Sport events have 10k+ prize for 1st place. Fighting game touranments have only produced a total of 3 events that have payed out at least 10k to 1st place(2 EVO's and Revalations) the past 2 years since SF4 blew up the scene.

I want to see SF4 or UMVC3 with big pay outs, but that will never happen without sponsors. And that may never happen unless the FGC can collaborate with the existing E-Sport companies. Some may be happy with a couple of hundred guys throwing 10 dollars into the pot, but I think it would be pretty sad if the community never goes beyond that.

starcraft 2 have few tournaments with 50k for the first place and one of them run on monthly bases.

 

[Anth0ny]

I want it to blow up so we can see million dollar pots, DOTA 2 style.

 

[Riposte]

I want it to blow up so we can see million dollar pots, DOTA 2 style.

I cringe at the idea of players like Marn having a million dollars.

Also I wonder what it would to the relationships between players. FGC might lose its innocence, to put it one way. Destined to happen I think.

 

[TGMIII]

Big fighting game tournament and EVO put together great events with great turn outs, but in the end the result is the same. We have tiny pay outs compared to many of these E-Sport events. A lot of these E-Sport events have 10k+ prize for 1st place. Fighting game touranments have only produced a total of 3 events that have payed out at least 10k to 1st place(2 EVO's and Revalations) the past 2 years since SF4 blew up the scene.

I want to see SF4 or UMVC3 with big pay outs, but that will never happen without sponsors. And that may never happen unless the FGC can collaborate with the existing E-Sport companies. Some may be happy with a couple of hundred guys throwing 10 dollars into the pot, but I think it would be pretty sad if the community never goes beyond that.

I want things to go beyond the point it's at now but the FGC really needs to hold on to what gets said in the end. Like I said in my previous post too many times have communities let things be taken over by big sponsors and too many times have they backed out leaving the community out to dry. We're at a really touchy point right now where things could just explode or it could just relapse into pre SF4 times, I think the small steps being taken with things like subscriptions on twitch are a good idea, merch like t-shirts and stick mods are going strong right now so there's an ecosystem in place that provides as much as needed right now.

If anything is going to hurt FGC on a global scale I think it's capcom ironically. They need to be careful of how they plan their releases from here on in because a lot of the casual fanbase are already fed-up with how they're currently doing things and with no casual fanbase you don't have a community.

 

[Projectjustice]

I say fuck getting lumped in with esports.

Fighting games are doing great on their own.

You don't see black jack being played at the Poker World Championships.

I approve of this message.

 

[Venfayth]

Make sure you guys read JCHensor's response to that final link (in the comment section below, in very small font ), it's a very good alternative view.

 

[Won]

lol at the MLG 05 stuff. First time I actually heard about that.


Not exactly sure what the "traditional eSports Model" exactly is though. *shrugs*

 

[ghst]

lol at the MLG 05 stuff. First time I actually heard about that.


Not exactly sure what the "traditional eSports Model" exactly is though. *shrugs*

i was waiting for the phrase "big esports".

 

[SolarPowered]

I cringe at the idea of players like Marn having a million dollars.

Also I wonder what it would to the relationships between players. FGC might lose its innocence, to put it one way. Destined to happen I think.

It'll be Chris G last nightx1,000,000. The very thought makes me worry about how people would react. It'd be awesome if it meant nice amounts of cash for places 1-8 though.

 

[Noisepurge]

World Cyber Games is a big event and its global. Im now in Korea as the finals start wednesday! it's going to be a big high level Tekken tournament with players all over the world representing their countries. I wish this was more mainstream so other countries except Korea would broadcast the event on TV!

and WCG runs on Samsung money, they also have promotional games every year to boost prizes.

 

[Aaron]

How big was EVO last year? How many people were on the steam for the finals? I had a feeling at the time that it was big enough on its own, but I don't remember any numbers.

 

[@MUWANdo]

It's interesting that so many people equate the health of the scene with the size of the pots. Is that really all that matters here?

Fighting game touranments have only produced a total of 3 events that have payed out at least 10k to 1st place(2 EVO's and Revalations) the past 2 years since SF4 blew up the scene.

The PDP MK tournament had a $21k pot, with $10k for first place.

 

[erpg]

I don't think a genre that sidelines balance (or fights against, in Arcade's case according to Ono) should really have a spot in large prize-pool mega tournaments.

 

[Lazy vs Crazy]

How do these big SC tournaments work? Is it invitational, or can just anyone show up with their $10 and get in on it?

Because I really don't want to see invitational only tournaments becoming a regular thing in fighters.

 

[Snow]

How do these big SC tournaments work? Is it invitational, or can just anyone show up with their $10 and get in on it?

Because I really don't want to see invitational only tournaments becoming a regular thing in fighters.

You have both invitationals and open tournaments. A lot of the big ones have some sort of hybrid approach where part of the bracket is open and part is seeded with players based on past performance or invitations.

 

[Aaron]

How do these big SC tournaments work? Is it invitational, or can just anyone show up with their $10 and get in on it?

Because I really don't want to see invitational only tournaments becoming a regular thing in fighters.

Most tournaments are half seeded players and half earning their spots by playing through an open bracket. The GSL has a two day event open to anyone where the winners earn spots in their lower rung division, Code A. Though it all boils down to anyone who is good enough can play, but you have to be really damn good.. The winner of the last MLG was from the open bracket, though he was an experienced GSL player already.

 

[ghst]

I don't think a genre that sidelines balance (or fights against, in Arcade's case according to Ono) should really have a spot in large prize-pool mega tournaments.

definitely a snaking undercurrent of an issue. if starcraft 2 had the same level of competitive balance that is displayed in AE or MVC3, it would've been an esports still-birth.

imagine if roaches were 1 food and void rays still had their original potency one year after release. balance is achieved by small, frequent adjustments; not capcom's archaic pump and dump strategy.

 

[sixteen-bit]

How big was EVO last year? How many people were on the steam for the finals? I had a feeling at the time that it was big enough on its own, but I don't remember any numbers.

80k max simultaneous viewers and 2 million unique viewers IIRC

 

[Paertan]

I´m guessing the big problem is the lack of sponsors. I mean games like SC2, LOL, CS etc can have huge amount of sponsors that sell computer hardware. Fighting Games are sponsored by Mad Catz basically. Sure Coca Cola can sponsor Fighting Games and SC2 etc but I don´t feel Fighting Games can grow to be a very big Esport. I would really love it though. Love watching SSFIVAE and MvC3 tournaments just as much as I love SC2 tournaments.

 

[SolarPowered]

definitely a snaking undercurrent of an issue. if starcraft 2 had the same level of competitive balance that is displayed in AE or MVC3, it would've been an esports still-birth.

imagine if roaches were 1 food and void rays still had their original potency one year after release. balance is achieved by small, frequent adjustments; not capcom's archaic pump and dump strategy.

It doesn't help when the majority of folks in the biggest Capcom/fighting game website(Unity is all over the place) call anyone who wants adjustments a "scrub" or a "whiner".

80k max simultaneous viewers and 2 million unique viewers IIRC

More or less on the dot.

 

[Bizazedo]

80k max simultaneous viewers and 2 million unique viewers IIRC

I thought they hit 100k? W/e, was still leagues above what they'd had the prior year.

I´m guessing the big problem is the lack of sponsors. I mean games like SC2, LOL, CS etc can have huge amount of sponsors that sell computer hardware. Fighting Games are sponsored by Mad Catz basically. Sure Coca Cola can sponsor Fighting Games and SC2 etc but I don´t feel Fighting Games can grow to be a very big Esport. I would really love it though. Love watching SSFIVAE and MvC3 tournaments just as much as I love SC2 tournaments.

Exactly. The current big sponsors for the more successful E-sports games are on PC. Big difference.

Personally, I'm disappointed in the companies like Capcom / Namco etc themselves not getting more involved.

Namco showed up to NEC with Soulcalibur V and Tekken Tag 2 to show off (got their own room, was cool), and had a developer show up. Atlus put up money for the KOF tournament pot, but it was only like $1000.

You'd think with just a bit more involvement from them, it could grow.

 

[Masaki_]

I started watching mvc3 streams after being linked to it from sc2 and i look at that community the way sc2 was in 2010. Small at the moment but with huge potential; they have hugely skilled players, great personalities and the game is flat out fun to watch.

I hope some organisation can really take this game to the masses to get it the attention it deserves. MLG did a really good job of that with sc2 and i think they could with mc3. Maybe with their past problems it wont be them, but i hope someone does it.

Damn.

When I see shit like this, it really puts things into perspective. Blizzard's gambit worked wonderfully. All the money they spent feeding the masses the esports bullshit really paid off and now we have a large group of self-important, smug tools like SirScoots patting our heads condescendingly.

 

[ultron87]

I wonder if potential sponsors are put off by the relative... looseness of your average fighting game stream.

 

[Bizazedo]

I wonder if potential sponsors are put off by the relative... looseness of your average fighting game stream.

One of the teams at NEC named themselves Dickbutt.

They were told that they had to change it to something more PG-13....but then it sounds like the stream had some stuff that wasn't?

But, yeah, the looseness of the streams / community definitely keeps some away.

 

[Aaron]

Streams turn foul in SC2 too. It's just that the players usually don't sink to that level.

 

[Deadman]

Damn.

When I see shit like this, it really puts things into perspective. Blizzard's gambit worked wonderfully. All the money they spent feeding the masses the esports bullshit really paid off and now we have a large group of self-important, smug tools like SirScoots patting our heads condescendingly.

uh..ok?

Im sorry i wanted your community to get bigger and more successful. Instead we can keep it where players cant even get to events on the other side of their own country, let alone compete around the world.