Both the quality and the pace of their output was already on the decline, and seeing the development hell they immediately sunk into after the buyout I'm not sure they would've been the Golden Goose you imagine they might have been. $100 million was huge for Nintendo at that time. With that they could literally have bought Retro Studios 100 times over.
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Eurogamer: Did Microsoft ruin Rare?
- Thread starter chickdigger802
- Start date
Both the quality and the pace of their output was already on the decline, and seeing the development hell they immediately sunk into after the buyout I'm not sure they would've been the Golden Goose you imagine they might have been. $100 million was huge for Nintendo at that time. With that they could literally have bought Retro Studios 100 times over.
DeaconKnowledge
Member
Lack of Nintendo's influence ruined Rare, as much as it pains people to admit.
They padded out the N64's library pretty significantly in between Nintendo 1st party releases. Without Rare the N64 would have been a disaster so yeah I agree with you.
Nintendo had to take a hit or two at one point.
Cyber Caesar
Member
We need a Killer Instinct XBL release followed by KI3. We could use a new Perfect Dark while they're at it, Viva Pinata wouldn't hurt, and a solid old school Rare style platformer to spice things up.
No. Also, haven't their 360 games mostly outsold any of their other games ever?
This situation really depends on whose eyes you look at this through. From a sales perspective I think they're actually doing better than they've ever done. From a quality perspective? Again, too subjective. I've liked or loved all their 360 games. Probably not as much as their 64 ones, but they're still all great games.
This situation really depends on whose eyes you look at this through. From a sales perspective I think they're actually doing better than they've ever done. From a quality perspective? Again, too subjective. I've liked or loved all their 360 games. Probably not as much as their 64 ones, but they're still all great games.
Domino Theory
Crystal Dynamics
Just give me a proper Banjo Kazooie sequel and I'll be happy with whatever direction they go in beyond that.
Reading that article more thoroughly, it seems Rare's biggest hurdle was moving forward with the times in all reality.
What that article doesn't mention is the archaic and oppressive working conditions of old Rare under the Stampers. I remember reading articles about what complete assholes they were.
What that article doesn't mention is the archaic and oppressive working conditions of old Rare under the Stampers. I remember reading articles about what complete assholes they were.
Not even close. Goldeneye and Donkey Kong Country both sold ~8 million. Kinect Sports (Rare's best selling game post-Nintendo) has sold around 3 million. Their other games have struggled to hit 1 million without bundles.
I knew a guy who worked at rare on Sabreman Stampede and Perfect Dark Zero. He placed the blame on Tilston having the ear of the Stampers and them rubber stamping every idiotic decision he made, the burn rate on graduate devs and artists and prototyping stuff up to almost alpha levels before shit canning.
They did, but that didn't pan out in the Gamecube generation. They just fell apart. Nintendo cut their losses and let them go, wisely.
Yep. Nintendo wasted a lot of potential by not keeping the rights to Banjo and Perfect Dark.
DICKS AHOY
Banned
No idea what happened with Star Fox considering Conker and Perfect Dark a year before. It's almost as if they were developed by different teams
and had a completely unrelated franchise stapled onto it near the end of development
They didnt get to show their full potential yet in gamecube generation. I mean, they only released one game...And that game was made by the exact same team that made Jet Force Gemini, which I never liked on N64.
Quality is subjective, but Rare games sold phenomenally well. GoldenEye was 8 million, DK64 and Diddy Kong Racing were like 5 million each, and their original IP's like the Banjo games and Perfect Dark sold over 3 million. It seems absolutely crazy to me that Nintendo would pass up Rare when looking at those sales figures. Rare were putting out consistent million sellers in all sorts of genres (platformers, FPS, racing, etc) - surely their N64 games alone have earned well over $100 million for Nintendo.
The development hell Rare went through was mostly because of the buyout. Porting from Gamecube to Xbox, then overhauling their games for the Xbox fan base (ie Kameo redesign), then being forced to make them 360 games etc. If they stuck with Nintendo there would have been none of those issues and they likely would've had much higher game output and sales.
DICKS AHOY
Banned
Yeah, Kameo and Perfect Dark for the GCN were well on track before the buyout happened, Sabreman Stampede would've likely come out at some point, Ghoulies was already halfway through development and would've gelled more with Nintendo's audience and a DK sequel, BK3 and Conker's Other Bad Fur Day would've been strong possibilities too. Not sure why everybody focuses on SFAdv as Rare's 'downfall' when there were several teams which were segregated from one another working at the company, the others of which had wildly different titles being primed for the console.
It'd be like doubting the next Mario game would be good because Wii Music was shit. Nintendo probably sold them since the Stamper brothers had been planning a buyout for years which probably strained relations with the parent company and a hundred million dollars was enticing when the GCN was falling further behind than the N64 had.
Yes for the development hell, but Starfox Adventures, as amazing as its graphics were, was already subpar. The N64 -> GC transition is painful to think about.
All their "Kinect Crap" as dudebros put it is pretty solid- they are good titles. To be honest I don't think Rare is in the toilet- just it hasn't really been used for what we want them to be used for a long time. To be honest I think they have the same quaility as always- just they can't push it to our crowd anymore so we are all like "omfg Rare sux".
Really the beginning of the end for Nintendo and Rare was with Conker's Bad Fur Day. The game retailed for $70, and was released right at the end of the N64's life. People were playing PS2 games at this point, so it sold like crap. After Starfox Adventures bombed, Rare's shareholders wanted to dump the company, so they took advantage of Microsoft's deal, and Nintendo could do nothing to stop them.
I think Microsoft's problem with Rare was they didn't really work with them at all. They treated them like Bungie and Lionhead and basically let them do whatever they wanted. It is clear to me that Nintendo played a part in how Rare made their games, from their level design, controls, and the overall polish of the game. Those features are clearly lacking in CBFD and SFA, and this just continued on with their future games. It seems like Microsoft finally decided to control Rare's game development with Kinect Sports, but at that point most of their good people were gone.
Rare games used to be references for the years to come : DK, Goldeneye, Banjo...now they're, are best, solid titles. I think there is an objective decrease in quality, as good as the studio may be now.
TaroYamada
Member
I think it was a good business move on Nintendo's part to sell them, a bad move what MS did to them. Even though I think they are a mediocre developer they definitely could have been salvaged.
I admit Star Fox Adventures was one of their weaker titles, but it still reviewed very well (82% on Metacritic) and was the fastest-selling Gamecube game when it released IIRC.
How is the coffee there?
Ignis Fatuus
Banned
This is basically Rare's attitude towards its fans too.
By the way, you should update your avatar. They got rid of that logo along with their last spark of creativity.
Fair enough, I stand corrected.
But I still think the quality of their games is as good as ever.
Had something like Kameo or Nuts and Bolts come out back in the late 90s or early 00s, they would have been considered 'classics'. Which I think is the problem. Rare were living in the past in terms of game design/philosophy.
If you two can't see the merits in any of their Xbox games, then you're the blind ones.
Their current Kinect focus is unfortunate for those of us who prefer their more creative output, but all of their Xbox games are quality products.
...They just don't reach the heights they used to.
Some times I think MS would have been better off releasing the Rare "E" titles on Wii (via THQ) and keep the "M" titles for themselves on 360. They probably would have made tons more money. Yes, I know it wouldn't make sense, but I wonder if it would have worked. Or they could have expanded on releasing Viva Pinata for DS with other Rare IPs for Nintendo handhelds.
I knew MS had no idea what they were doing when they rushed Perfect Dark Zero out for launch, though. I'm surprised that the IP survived it, considering how well Perfect Dark XBLA sold. And every single Scribes is heavily Nintendo-centric even after the buyout. And they put the N64 into Nuts and Bolts.. it's like they're just hoping MS will hand them back to Nintendo.
I knew MS had no idea what they were doing when they rushed Perfect Dark Zero out for launch, though. I'm surprised that the IP survived it, considering how well Perfect Dark XBLA sold. And every single Scribes is heavily Nintendo-centric even after the buyout. And they put the N64 into Nuts and Bolts.. it's like they're just hoping MS will hand them back to Nintendo.
Which is exactly what a great majority here is concerned about. Oh, the drama.
EatinOlives
Member
All the pile-on hate on Rare is entirely and completely unjustified. Kameo was good, the Viva Pinata games were great, and Nuts and Bolts was fantastic.
I was a fan of Rare since the SNES days and especially during the N64 days. Frankly, the idea that Rare "became shit" prior to the most recent restructure is completely stupid in my opinion. Star Fox Adventures was crap only because Nintendo made it so, and they had some trouble finding their footing with Grabbed by the Ghoulies and PDZ, but pretty much every other game they made form that point forward was exactly in the same style as their N64 games.
I know it's popular to hate on Rare after they were bought by MS, but no. Just no. They were great until Rare eviscerated them for this most recent restructuring where they're just basically lackeys for whatever casual shit Microsoft feels like pursing at the time.
I was a fan of Rare since the SNES days and especially during the N64 days. Frankly, the idea that Rare "became shit" prior to the most recent restructure is completely stupid in my opinion. Star Fox Adventures was crap only because Nintendo made it so, and they had some trouble finding their footing with Grabbed by the Ghoulies and PDZ, but pretty much every other game they made form that point forward was exactly in the same style as their N64 games.
I know it's popular to hate on Rare after they were bought by MS, but no. Just no. They were great until Rare eviscerated them for this most recent restructuring where they're just basically lackeys for whatever casual shit Microsoft feels like pursing at the time.
If I were blind, Kinect Sports might be a little bit more enjoyable.
At present, it's fucking bollocks.
Ignis Fatuus
Banned
I'm glad that you recognize this. Why don't you update your avatar as well? It's about as outdated as your love for the company.
Woah, calm down man.
Yes maybe its good, but its far from being outstanding like they used to be. :/
EDIT: I said good, but the only Rare's game I played last gen was Banjo Kazooie Nuts & Bolts and I didn't like it that much. I'm no 'Kinectist'.
Ignis Fatuus
Banned
If it came from any other developer, there would be no controversy at all about calling Kinect Sports shovelware. Suddenly, because it's Rare, aiming for the toilet and pulling it off successfully apparently means quality.
Yeah Nintendo didn't just change their characters 3D models, they totally ghost-developed it under Rare's name and then released it without any development credit (those bastards put Rare's names all over the credits, too!)
Kinect Sports *isn't* shovelware. It isn't your cup of tea, but there are plenty of examples of minigame shovelware this generation (across multiple platforms) - Kinect Sports doesn't even remotely fit with that definition.
Nuts & Bolts was only a little over three years ago, brah.
*gulp*
I'll never stop loving Rare. Even if they're no longer what they once were, they've left behind a hell of a legacy.
Let's see what they have in store for the future.
People are blaming Nintendo but didn't Nintendo have a 49% stake, then the Stamper brothers who owned Rare sold their 51% to Microsoft for a few hundred million and Nintendo were forced to sell their part of the company? I'm going to say that it's entirely Microsoft's fault - you go from being a respected Nintendo first party developer making AAA games to making souless mini-game collections for a crappy motion capture device.
Microsoft isn't selling, and Nintendo isn't buying.
To anyone thinking it was Rare who killed themselves, Grant Kirkhope spoke out in a podcast a while back claiming it was Microsoft that "shot the company to hell". He also made claims that Rare had begged Microsoft to change Nuts & Bolts into what it became, and that the original concept was far worse than what we got.
http://www.ustream.tv/recorded/13614608 Grant speaks about it around 1:20:00.
Put me on board the "Microsoft killed Rare" train.
http://www.ustream.tv/recorded/13614608 Grant speaks about it around 1:20:00.
Put me on board the "Microsoft killed Rare" train.