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[mclem]

How is that not being able to qualify it under 5 stars is legal? HOW IS THIS FUCKING SCAM LEGAL?

You can give it fewer than five stars, it's just the game doesn't *direct* you to do so; it'll only guide you to the Play Store if you claim to give it five. You can lie there, then give it a lower score, or you can navigate to the play store page yourself and give it a lower score.

Edit: Wait, am I wrong there? I thought you still had control over the rating you deliver after you get sent to the app store?

I'm curious if an inexperienced person who wants to rate it lower than five and answers honestly to the questions is under the impression that they did actually register a lower rating at that point, or if they understand that a rating hasn't gone through. I do like the fact that the question is very carefully phrased:

"How *would* you rate" the game. Why, we're not claiming to rate it when this screen pops up, we're just asking you in a friendly way how you *would* rate it. For our own records. It's not our fault if you interpret the screen differently!

 

[TatteredHat]

I don't think this even gets to qualify as a game anymore.

 

[mclem]

What is wrong? How about them deliberately breaking the game mechanics to make the microtransactions fit? How about the game being utterly unplayable after a while without either waiting unreasonable periods of time or shelling out cash.

There is a key component here which I don't like but *is* valid: To what they believe is their target audience, the wait periods are not unreasonable. That's not us, and the problem with it not being us, is that I have no frame of reference to whether they *are* okay to the target audience.

 

[Moff]

I don't think this even gets to qualify as a game anymore.

thats right, but there are many like it, and they make shitloads of money

You can give it fewer than five stars, it's just the game doesn't *direct* you to do so; it'll only guide you to the Play Store if you claim to give it five. You can lie there, then give it a lower score, or you can navigate to the play store page yourself and give it a lower score.

Edit: Wait, am I wrong there? I thought you still had control over the rating you deliver after you get sent to the app store?

no you are right
the game and the play store are completely independed, you dont even need to have the game running to rate it in the store. the game simply asks how you WOULD rate it, if its 5 you'll be send to the store, if not you get to write an email about what you would improve. but thats all completely independent from the actual rating, and you can just dismiss the message as well.

There is a key component here which I don't like but *is* valid: To what they believe is their target audience, the wait periods are not unreasonable. That's not us, and the problem with it not being us, is that I have no frame of reference to whether they *are* okay to the target audience.

exactly, the wait times are part of the concept.
you are not supposed to play this game for an hour straight, you are supposed to play it every few hours for a few minutes, gather ressources, build new building, units, then wait again for a few hours. its a mobile game that is supposed to be played like that. and it was obvious since the very first sceenshot and there are many games like this, and they are incredibly successful.

its not a real dungeon keeper anymore, and not even a real game, but its this or nothing.

 

[TheChewyWaffles]

Holee shit. That is a very genius and evil high score scheme.

I'm ashamed of Apple for permitting it,

 

[Wiktor]

I clicked the red x in the rop right corner and never saw that message again

And that's a bad thing. You can only rate the game 5starts from the game itself then. You need to leave the game and go to App Store separately to rate it lower. Since most people don't care enough to do so,, this skews the ratings heavily.

 

[Moff]

And that's a bad thing. You can only rate the game 5starts from the game itself then. You need to leave the game and go to App Store separately to rate it lower. Since most people don't care enough to do so,, this skews the ratings heavily.

as I said, I've seen worse, there are other games that bait you with ingame currency if you rate the game with 5 stars.
btw you need to rate the game in the store either way, and can chose whatever you want, I dont think there are apps in the store that let you rate the game in the app itself.

 

[mclem]

And that's a bad thing. You can only rate the game 5starts from the game itself then. You need to leave the game and go to App Store separately to rate it lower. Since most people don't care enough to do so,, this skews the ratings heavily.

What you claim to be rating it in the game is not what you *have* to rate it when you're released to the store.

That said, that's in no way forgiving this, it's still underhanded, making the majority of the raters a self-selected group.

 

[Chev]

First EA killed bullfrog and now one of their IPs, too. What a sad ending.

"Now"? It has been dead forever, seriously. Once in a while they just kick the corpse so see if it still twitches.

 

[Shaneus]

This may have topped Wing Commander Arena as the worst classic franchise revival of all time.

Bit late, but Tony Hawk HD.

Welp, this comment. Incredible how much this says.

psssst.... their intended audience is the one that pays through the nose to play shit like this.

 

[Sakujou]

I'm ashamed of Apple for permitting it,

dude, this is not the first game which makes use of f2p-methods.

its only a shame that EA killed off a beloved franchise.

oh yeah, and fanrage. nothing better than that.

 

[VibratingDonkey]

The intended audience is casual iphone players who otherwise play Tapout, Clash of Clans and the like.

Casual is now not just mechanics but is also defined by time investment. These games are not meant to soak up 8 hours straight of time but 5 minutes here and there between living life. It is the equivalent of browsing your Facebook feed but you are clicking to get gold and making a move.

Yeah, taken like an ordinary game and continuous playing the monetization is gross but for drop in drop out the design actually makes a weird sort of sense. It actually encourages you to leave and do something else and by doing that they know you will come back and see the progress that has happened while you are away.

Devils Advocate here to the guy who said he paid 40 euro for 4 month of on and off fun that is a pretty good dollar to time entertainment ratio. Some $60 games don't supply that.

End of the day, if the game was called Dungeon Digger this wouldn't even be a thing. It is simply specific branding that has caused a furor.

I agree with you in that us who care a bit more about games generally hate this kind of bullshit, and that sites who has us as an audience probably wouldn't have covered this if it wasn't named Dungeon Keeper.

Anyway, it's still bullshit and it's a good thing we're calling it as such whenever it splotches onto our radar. Casual mobile people can keep appreciating their fucked up, cynical, exploitative marketplace, I don't really care or mind, well, beyond that it's super sad how that's mostly the passion and driving force of the whole industry. But whatever, mobile games were always shit, ones like these are probably still an improvement compared to pre-smartphone. At least nowadays the possibility of good games exists. I don't play mobile games, but if I do, stuff like Year Walk is out there.

 

[Angst]

Mobile / tablet game reviewers are actually worse than regular reviewers.

 

[VibratingDonkey]

Mobile / tablet game reviewers are actually worse than regular reviewers.

The ones on Metacritic are still relatively good.

 

[Haunted]

I'd say "Poor guy." for all the shit he'll be getting but...

...what a shithead.

It's like some communist dictatorship pointing towards their 99.8% approval rating in the latest election.

"See? The people love us!"

 

[Chinbo37]

I love this quote from the Metro review

http://metro.co.uk/2014/02/04/dungeon-keeper-review-microtransaction-hell-4289901/


"Dungeon Keeper is not a video game, not any more. Instead it’s just a virtual beggar, constantly demanding your spare change and offering nothing in return."

 

[leadbelly]

dude, this is not the first game which makes use of f2p-methods.

I doubt Apple would remove it, but it isn't the use of the f2p model that is the problem, it is the implementation of it.

 

[Moff]

I doubt Apple would remove it, but it isn't the use of the f2p model that is the problem, it is the implementation of it.

there are literally tons of games which work exactly like this, and they are very successfull

 

[Sakujou]

I doubt Apple would remove it, but it isn't the use of the f2p model that is the problem, it is the implementation of it.

one of the many ways.

there is a good way to implement it, and a bad way.

and the bad way are a dime a dozen.

i feel sorry for bullfrog... if they were working on this.

 

[Bedlam]

Seeing this pic, I was starting to lose faith in humanity. However, at least the average is at 47% now. Still way too high of course. Those critics with scores in the yellows and greens should be utterly ashamed.

 

[SolidSnakex]

Seeing this pic, I was starting to lose faith in humanity. However, at least the average is at 47% now. Still way too high of course. Those critics with scores in the yellows and greens should be utterly ashamed.

I think the most interesting part of that pic is that all of those reviews are from mobile sites. Are they just so accustomed to microtransactions that it's no longer an issue for them?

 

[Jack_AG]

let's make it 4 years

Its not fair to other companies that EA wins every year. We should just give them 100 more golden poos to lock down the next century and call it a day. Why hold contests if the same person wins all the time? Its not fair to anyone else. EA deserves a poo of the forever prize.

 

[Mindwipe]

I knew there was something weird going on with the review scores of this game in the app stores.

 

[Alcotholic]

So I had to know and your guess is almost right, only you don't get any gems.
After playing for a while, you get an ingame popup, that indicates that 5 stars helps them and the game:

If you tap on 1-4 Stars, you get another popup, that let's you e-mail them:

Taping on 5 Stars sends you to the play store.

Everyone should submit the "1-4 star rating" and when they ask for how they could make they game better, you reply with "The game would be better if you raised the prices." I would love to see them actually raise the prices if enough people asked.

 

[Arkadios]

Metacritic's score dropped to 47.

 

[GeoGonzo]

This thread reminded me that I still wanted to give it a try. Almost managed to keep it installed for a full day but... nope. Just to say something nice, I like the narrator's voice... but this "game" is just awful.

 

[SovanJedi]

I wonder if anything will come of this. I am shamed to admit I downloaded the game last night based on these terrible reviews and have been trying it ever since (note that "trying" isn't the same as "playing", since there is almost no gameplay to speak of). It seems like your typical money-rinsing F2P model that's more interested in taking all your money than providing a worthwhile gameplay experience.

It's a dishonest, harmful model but the genre has become standard for long enough now that I doubt anything of significance will come of it.

 

[SamVT]

I don't even understand why we call these free-to-wait apps, videogames anymore?

Seriously. What is the gameplay in these? Clicking / Tapping on things and waiting? Endless waiting?

C&C had a timer for building troops but those were in seconds. AoE had a timer for buildings but those were in seconds or minutes. DK had a timer for digging out your dungeon but again, in seconds. While all of the above were core mechanics there were additional and equally important mechanics than that. It seems that the arrival of mobile (and the $$$ it makes for successful companies) means that we've got rid of what makes gameplay and instead are made to wait. And only wait. DK Mobile masked as a Tower Defence game again, that doesn't make the game here considering how little time you spend on that mechanic. I struggle as someone who grew up with gaming in 90s to find my place in this 'new' era.

I keep hearing from developers "Short bursts of gameplay is what people should do" but that's a lame excuse for you to explain that making me wait will earn you money. It's nothing to do with having my best interest as a player at heart or trying to reinvent a game and its mechanics. If that was truly the case we'd see interesting new mechanics develop. You know, things I can actually do. If all I can do is click / touch on things every 24 hours I don't call that a game anymore, that's not gameplay.

Again, I seriously question why we call these apps, video games.

 

[DeviantBoi]

It's funny that Dungeon Keeper 1 and 2 are the current best-selling games on GOG right now.

 

[Derrick01]

Mobile / tablet game reviewers are actually worse than regular reviewers.

I guess I shouldn't be surprised that they embrace this fraudulent garbage. It must be all they play.

and I thought being stuck reviewing most of the games in our part of the industry was a miserable existence...

 

[zashga]

It's funny that Dungeon Keeper 1 and 2 are the current best-selling games on GOG right now.

I considered buying one of them yesterday, but it bothers me that EA gets money if I do. Maybe that's illogical, but EA seriously grosses me out.

 

[Ahasverus]

I concur with voices saying these are not even video games anymore.

 

[Warm Machine]

I concur with voices saying these are not even video games anymore.

They are more decoration or design apps. Megapolis was like Sim City except nothing you did had any real bearing on your success. You just designed your city in a way you wanted and thought looked nice. The gameplay was trying to generate more income to buy more city pieces and nothing you did was detrimental. Tiny Tower is similar as well.

Here you are more or less designing a dungeon and then decide whether or not you want to see if your traps hold up to an invasion. There is gameplay but it is as deep as a puddle of water.

The overall point of games like these is to make things happen in short bursts and put it away. It is still gaming but is more akin to walking into an Arcade, playing one 3 minute game, and then walking out 3 times a day. The addictive quality is not staying in the game, it is leaving and then being rewarded for coming back.

 

[CadetMahoney]

Hopefully Capcom uses this as the benchmark to beat with Deep Down. The bar has been raised, your move Capcom.

 

[SatelliteOfLove]

The intended audience is casual iphone players who otherwise play Tapout, Clash of Clans and the like.

Casual is now not just mechanics but is also defined by time investment. These games are not meant to soak up 8 hours straight of time but 5 minutes here and there between living life. It is the equivalent of browsing your Facebook feed but you are clicking to get gold and making a move.

Yeah, taken like an ordinary game and continuous playing the monetization is gross but for drop in drop out the design actually makes a weird sort of sense. It actually encourages you to leave and do something else and by doing that they know you will come back and see the progress that has happened while you are away.

Devils Advocate here to the guy who said he paid 40 euro for 4 month of on and off fun that is a pretty good dollar to time entertainment ratio. Some $60 games don't supply that.

End of the day, if the game was called Dungeon Digger this wouldn't even be a thing. It is simply specific branding that has caused a furor.

This justifies the disgust even more, so I'm hoping that was the aim of these posts.

 

[VoidZero]

I have seen much worse than that
many mobile f2p games bait you with ingame currency if you rate the game with 5 stars
i dont see whats bad about the possibility to write a mail to the developers with improvements if you are not happy with the game

That violates the play store content policy:
https://play.google.com/intl/en-US_us/about/developer-content-policy.html

Developers must not attempt to change the placement of any Product in the Store, or manipulate any product ratings or reviews by unauthorized means such as fraudulent installs, paid or fake reviews or ratings, or by offering incentives to rate products.

Regarding the rest of your post, the problem is that chosing "1-4 stars" doesn't take you to the play store, it opens another popup for feedback. Many see this as an hassle and won't bother with it. They will simply uninstall it without giving a review.
There are psychological reasons behind this.

 

[mclem]

Looks like this has hit the big time:

BBC: EA faces criticism over mobile Dungeon Keeper game

Bonus points: War for the Overworld gets alluded to. How's that for free publicity?

 

[clockpunk]

Bonus points: War for the Overworld gets alluded to. How's that for free publicity?

I was very glad to see that reference - complete with a screenshot, no less.

 

[EGM1966]

Can't remember the last time I so vehemently agreed with a review. Particularly the last line. 800 gems for the rest of the score indeed.

 

[ToxicAdam]

Looks like this has hit the big time:

BBC: EA faces criticism over mobile Dungeon Keeper game

Bonus points: War for the Overworld gets alluded to. How's that for free publicity?

Doesn't surprise me it became a story in the UK. I know there have been some officials looking to get F2P banned due to their (sometime) predatory nature.



http://www.develop-online.net/news/uk-government-scrutinises-f2p-kids-games/0114543

 

[chalkitdown1]

http://www.jonathancresswell.co.uk/dungeonkeeper/

 

[spirity]

EA responds to fevered Dungeon Keeper Paywall Criticism

This interview is conducted by Paul Semel.

The same Paul Semel had an exclusive interview of another game by EA named Heroes Of Dragon Age. This game also has the same insane amount of micro transactions and milking of a known game-brand going on.

The same Paul Semel had an exclusive interview of another game by EA named Battlefield 4. Don't need to explain to anyone why this game (and especially EA) gets a lot of flack.

The same Paul Semel had an exclusive review of another game by EA named Battlefield 4. Again, this game is very controversial and EA even has lawsuits over it.

This same Paul Semel, who otherwise is fairly unknown and doesn't have a particular impressive and interesting history (especially not enough to be considered someone to have an exclusive interview with a company like EA regarding a sensitive and giant subject like this), gets picked to do a very mild and innocent interview about a very controversial topic.

Anyone who believes this interview to be legit and not simply a way for EA to act as if they're responding to criticism while simply making up excuses and giving general vague and textbook answers need to get themselves checked.

http://www.reddit.com/r/Games/comments/1x4axt/ea_responds_to_fevered_dungeon_keeper_paywall/

 

[Xater]

I considered buying one of them yesterday, but it bothers me that EA gets money if I do. Maybe that's illogical, but EA seriously grosses me out.

Buy Evil Genius instead.

 

[Pikawil]

Looks like this has hit the big time:

BBC: EA faces criticism over mobile Dungeon Keeper game

Bonus points: War for the Overworld gets alluded to. How's that for free publicity?

The Beeb has quoted Jim Sterling! Jim has hit the big time!

 

[Rentahamster]

we didn’t make this game for ourselves, we made it for the players.

It's for YOUUUUUUUUU!

 

[Wiktor]

http://www.jonathancresswell.co.uk/dungeonkeeper/

This is beautiful

 

[Saty]

Eurogamer has new piece about this: http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2...pers-need-to-look-at-dungeon-keeper-and-learn

Whenever you write about this phenomenon, the common complaint from people making the games in question is that not all of them are bad. As Thomas Baekdal realised though, the problem is definition. When your free-to-play game is all economy mechanics rather than game mechanics, when your game is all business design rather than game design, you're not actually making a game - you're constructing a scam, whether you realise it or not. If you're doing it knowingly, you're just a high-tech gangster.

So I agree: it's extremely important that we continue to draw a big, unmissable line between the people running rackets and the people doing good work. If we don't, the potential for long-term damage is huge. We've just about gotten to the point that legislators who grew up playing games can react sensibly to them in public life, for example. What about the generation that follows them, currently growing up playing stuff like Dungeon Keeper? They will arrive in office thinking games are made by the mob.

Strong words.

 

[li bur]

How bad is this game really? I don't have any problem with clash of clan, will I hate this game?

 

[Majmun]

EA fucked up again.

2014 is beginning really strong for them...

 

[dead monkey uk]

Eurogamer has new piece about this: http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2...pers-need-to-look-at-dungeon-keeper-and-learn


Strong words.

Very good article, good to see Eurogamer not holding back. EA have been hitting new lows lately.