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[SmokyDave]

And yes, Australians and Britons and everyone else who lives in countries that restrict free speech are hurt by these practices, because it makes them less free.

I would appreciate it if you could elaborate on this.

What restrictions do you perceive as harming the citizenry of Britain?

 

[JGS]

Offensive apps are taken down from the Apple store all the time. This doesn't fall under something they shouldn't restrict.

Scared of this thread but will reply.

My point was a religious app can be deemed offensive regardless. If a religious app discusses their beliefs that homosexuality is wrong then that app should go. In turn, an app about homosexuality is offensive to ones who don't agree with it.

An option would be to remove all religious apps I guess, but Apple isn't that stupid. They should just stop the controversy they involve themselves in by just letting everything this side of porn in and having the companies deal with the app fallout.

 

[Joel Was Right]

This begs the question: couldn't this argument be extended towards Bible and Quran apps with their lines on homosexuality?

.

 

[Suairyu]

This begs the question: couldn't this argument be extended towards Bible and Quran apps with their lines on homosexuality?

No.

At least in the case of the bible. That doesn't actually have anything in it that is anti-homosexuality, just a few throwaway lines that have been leapt on over the years by religious leaders to justify homophobia. Same for masturbation.

Have not read enough of the Quran to answer for that.

It would easily fall under the exception as a historically important document, though. You don't censor Huck Finn, recent success at that be damned; you don't censor an old collection of books with beautiful and historically important prose just because it's a bigoted pile of war-mongering shite.

 

[Dead Man]

Scared of this thread but will reply.

My point was a religious app can be deemed offensive regardless. If a religious app discusses their beliefs that homosexuality is wrong then that app should go. In turn, an app about homosexuality is offensive to ones who don't agree with it.

An option would be to remove all religious apps I guess, but Apple isn't that stupid. They should just stop the controversy they involve themselves in by just letting everything this side of porn in and having the companies deal with the app fallout.

I'm pretty sure most people would be happy with that, it is the selective removal that is giving people the shits.

 

[Joel Was Right]

No.

At least in the case of the bible. That doesn't actually have anything in it that is anti-homosexuality, just a few throwaway lines that have been leapt on over the years by religious leaders to justify homophobia. Same for masturbation.

Have not read enough of the Quran to answer for that.

It would easily fall under the exception as a historically important document, though. You don't censor Huck Finn, recent success at that be damned; you don't censor an old collection of books with beautiful and historically important prose just because it's a bigoted pile of war-mongering shite.

I'm sure there are many things people can find offensive in religious texts. I said it before I think, but I read one man trying to sue publishers of the Bible for the same reason

 

[Shurs]

Has anyone downloaded the app to see what it's all about?

I understand the idea of not wanting to support a company such as this, which is why I haven't downloaded it, but it would be interesting to see what it's all about.


Let me play devil's advocate for a moment.

This is obviously aimed at religious people who have been shamed into no longer wanting to be gay. Their church's stance on the matter is: if you engage in homosexual activity, you can't get into heaven.

For some, wouldn't the idea of being able to transition to heterosexuality -- as far-fetched as that idea may be -- actually prevent some young people from harming themselves?

Wouldn't the idea that -- and, again, I realize how horrible this sounds -- they could redeem themselves in the eyes of God through transitioning actually give some young people hope that they will be accepted by their Christ-loving peers?

 

[SmokyDave]

Has anyone downloaded the app to see what it's all about?

Just d/l'ing it as we speak. Looks like testimonies from newly converted gays, Facebook links, Twatter information, FAQ's, that kinda thing.

At the moment, the app opens, attempts to connect to a site and then times out. Not a lot to see so far.

Edit: An events calendar, Videos, Latest News & More are at the bottom of the app but they're all timing out atm. It isn't my connection, the app is just slow as fuck.

These events are for pastors, ministry leaders, campus workers, educators, counselors, or anyone desiring to learn how to address this controversial topic and provide ministry support to people with unwanted same-sex attractions.

 

[Deleted member 30609]

That's like attaching a crusty old bandaid you found in the local pool on your grazed knee with super-glue. In the short-term you'll stop the bleeding but that shit is bound to fuck you up in the long term.

I always feel so damn sorry for gay men who come out in their late 30s with a wife and kids. They've wasted their own youth in a passionless relationship, they've wasted their partner's youth on a lie, profoundly embarrassed them, and their kids are left in an awkward situation. This happens REMARKABLY often. You can't pray the gay away. You either live a repressed life, or you go and satisfy yourself. This app isn't helping anyone. It is harmful trash.

 

[Instigator]

Just d/l'ing it as we speak. Looks like testimonies from newly converted gays, Facebook links, Twatter information, FAQ's, that kinda thing.

At the moment, the app opens, attempts to connect to a site and then times out. Not a lot to see so far.

Edit: An events calendar, Videos, Latest News & More are at the bottom of the app but they're all timing out atm. It isn't my connection, the app is just slow as fuck.

No pretty girls? No cleavage?

 

[Suairyu]

I'm sure there are many things people can find offensive in religious texts. I said it before I think, but I read one man trying to sue publishers of the Bible for the same reason

Then that man was an idiot.

We're mad at this group and this app because it is happening now. They are spreading their bullshit now. They are causing hundreds of people to kill themselves now. They are the abortion of humanity picking at our weak points as a species now.

The Bible and Quran are from then. We can read those works to better understand the people from back then. We can revel in the beautiful verse and imagery. We accept they held those views, whilst understanding such views are not relevant or just. We would not aim to censor them or sue publishers of them because that is some LaLiLuLeLo censor the truth wank.

 

[SmokyDave]

No pretty girls? No cleavage?

No

I must admit, part of me was hoping there'd be some 'Hot Chick Flash Cards' but sadly not. I am straight after using the app but since I was straight before I used it, I'm not sure we can consider that a success. App is shit, back to Words With Friends.

 

[tiff]

Then that man was an idiot.

We're mad at this group and this app because it is happening now. They are spreading their bullshit now. They are causing hundreds of people to kill themselves now. They are the abortion of humanity picking at our weak points as a species now.

The Bible and Quran are from then. We can read those works to better understand the people from back then. We can revel in the beautiful verse and imagery. We accept they held those views, whilst understanding such views are not relevant or just. We would not aim to censor them or sue publishers of them because that is some LaLiLuLeLo censor the truth wank.

The Bible and Quran influence how millions of people think and act now, though.

 

[stupei]

This is obviously aimed at religious people who have been shamed into no longer wanting to be gay. Their church's stance on the matter is: if you engage in homosexual activity, you can't get into heaven.

For some, wouldn't the idea of being able to transition to heterosexuality -- as far-fetched as that idea may be -- actually prevent some young people from harming themselves?

Wouldn't the idea that -- and, again, I realize how horrible this sounds -- they could redeem themselves in the eyes of God through transitioning actually give some young people hope that they will be accepted by their Christ-loving peers?

No, because it isn't actually possible. Even the people who believe that it is possible, if you look at the statistics, admit that the majority of them are still "practicing" homosexuals who are in the process of being "cured" or they have chosen abstinence.

The organization preaches conversion that isn't possible, but claims it is wide spread and common. If a gay teen who is already contemplating suicide tries to change who he is and then fails, he's going to blame himself for that failure. After all, Exodus told him it was possible. Exodus has proof. Exodus has all these people saying they did it, why can't I? What's wrong with me? I must really be broken.

 

[me Jojo]

An app made by, made for and approved by stupid people. Carry on.

 

[Suairyu]

The Bible and Quran influence how millions of people think and act now, though.

And I'm sure some jackass justifies his use of the word "nigger" because it's in some of the most cherished American literature ever. Doesn't make the notion of editing historic work anymore ridiculous.

 

[Shurs]

That's like attaching a crusty old bandaid you found in the local pool on your grazed knee with super-glue. In the short-term you'll stop the bleeding but that shit is bound to fuck you up in the long term.

I always feel so damn sorry for gay men who come out in their late 30s with a wife and kids. They've wasted their own youth in a passionless relationship, they've wasted their partner's youth on a lie, profoundly embarrassed them, and their kids are left in an awkward situation. This happens REMARKABLY often. You can't pray the gay away. You either live a repressed life, or you go and satisfy yourself. This app isn't helping anyone. It is harmful trash.

No, because it isn't actually possible. Even the people who believe that it is possible, if you look at the statistics, admit that the majority of them are still "practicing" homosexuals who are in the process of being "cured" or they have chosen abstinence.

The organization preaches conversion that isn't possible, but claims it is wide spread and common. If a gay teen who is already contemplating suicide tries to change who he is and then fails, he's going to blame himself for that failure. After all, Exodus told him it was possible. Exodus has proof. Exodus has all these people saying they did it, why can't I? What's wrong with me? I must really be broken.

Unfortunately, due to time constraints, I won't be able to reply.

Know this:
I fully support gay rights.

 

[tiff]

And I'm sure some jackass justifies his use of the word "nigger" because it's in some of the most cherished American literature ever. Doesn't make the notion of editing historic work anymore ridiculous.

I don't really think that's comparable to how Christians and Muslims regard their religious books.

 

[mclaren777]

This is obviously aimed at religious people who have been shamed into no longer wanting to be gay. Their church's stance on the matter is: if you engage in homosexual activity, you can't get into heaven.

That might be the stance of cults like Westboro Baptist, but I don't know of any Christian church that holds such a view.

 

[SmokyDave]

That might be the stance of cults like Westboro Baptist, but I don't know of any Christian church that holds such a view.

That sentence doesn't make sense, Westboro are a Christian church.

 

[KtSlime]

The Bible and Quran influence how millions of people think and act now, though.

True, however I think it is easier to get rid of this shit than that shit right now. So by all means, we need to get rid of this first - hopefully now that it is a weekday, it will get taken care of.

Has anyone emailed Jobs, I know he's not as hands on right now, but I am sure if he heard about this it would be gone in an instant - he doesn't seem to tolerate this kind of bigotry.

mclaren777: No true Scotsman, still haven't read Hume yet?

 

[mclaren777]

That sentence doesn't make sense, Westboro are a Christian church.

As far as I can tell it's just a large, confused family.

The members aren't very Christ-like and I'm unaware of any Christian church or organization that supports their "ministry".

 

[teacupcopter]

That might be the stance of cults like Westboro Baptist, but I don't know of any Christian church that holds such a view.

Only because the get out of jail free repent on deathbed trick, if you take that away then in fact almost every christian church holds that homosexuality is a sin, and if you participate in it without repenting then sorry you are in for a toasty afterlife!

Things like this are so sad, why can't the churches just be nice to people Who gives a fuck who others fuck?

 

[tiff]

Only because the get out of jail free repent on deathbed trick, if you take that away then in fact almost every christian church holds that homosexuality is a sin, and if you participate in it without repenting then sorry you are in for a toasty afterlife!

Things like this are so sad, why can't the churches just be nice to people Who gives a fuck who others fuck?

Because God says it's wrong, I guess?

 

[mclaren777]

Things like this are so sad, why can't the churches just be nice to people Who gives a fuck who others fuck?

God. That's kind of the point.

You can be mad at God for punishing sin (all kinds, not just sexual immorality) but I think it's foolish to ask a church to water down its doctrine in an effort to be 'nice'.

 

[KtSlime]

Because God says it's wrong, I guess?

God is only wrong because people are wrong. He is an imaginary manifestation of the 'perfect' person:

Human God
Weak Omnipotent
Unknowing Omniscient
Mortal Immortal
Immoral "Moral"
Physical Transcendent


Etc. It's like we make a list of what we are, and invert it and tada - we have "God".

Wonder what that says about those who preach an anti-homosexual "God"...?

 

[tiff]

Etc. It's like we make a list of what we are, and invert it and tada - we have "God".

Wonder what that says about those who preach an anti-homosexual "God"...?

Christianity is a cult of closet homosexuals?

 

[KtSlime]

Christianity is a cult of closet homosexuals?

Christianity is the cult of whatever personal demons you are afraid of - for many that is homosexuality.

 

[Suairyu]

That might be the stance of cults like Westboro Baptist, but I don't know of any Christian church that holds such a view.

The "be whatever you like but have Christ in your heart and you are saved because Christ died for your sins" is an interpretation of the bible largely contained within America. Most interpretations of Christianity the world over view sin (and thus homosexuality, as most also interpret a few lines that way) as something that prevents you from entering heaven, belief in Christ or not.

 

[mclaren777]

Most interpretations of Christianity the world over view sin as something that prevents you from entering heaven, belief in Christ or not.

I find this claim rather hard to believe. Can you please point to a specific denomination or group that holds such a view?

 

[Suairyu]

I find this claim rather hard to believe. Can you please point to a specific denomination or group that holds such a view?

Outside of Catholicism and Greek Orthodoxy (probably the two biggest denominations anyway), no. It wasn't my field of study. A peer who had been studying it for her doctorate was talking to me about it one day and I was as surprised to find this information out as you are. But I was only surprised about this because the "Christ absolves all sins" is what is shouted the loudest by the internet and media, which are about as American centric as you can get without being in America.

Unfortunately, she told me, the beliefs of WBC are probably a lot more inline with Christianity as a whole worldwide than most would like to admit. It's just their methods of going about things most would frown on.

"Have Christ in your heart and you are absolved of all sins" is a modern invention. A rapist cannot enter the kingdom of heaven without a TON of penance, if at all.

 

[mclaren777]

Outside of Catholicism and Greek Orthodoxy (probably the two biggest denominations anyway), no.

So your earlier statement about sin preventing someone from entering Heaven has to do with belief in an intermediate state like purgatory? The idea that Heaven is the ultimate destination of Christians but not everyone goes there immediately after death?

And perhaps we should continue this conversation using PMs as it has nothing to do with this app.

 

[levious]

Catholics don't believe sin can prevent entry to heaven. Purgatory was used as a means of raising money to expedite a loved one's entry to heaven even.

 

[Suairyu]

So your earlier statement about sin preventing someone from entering Heaven has to do with belief in an intermediate state like purgatory? The idea that Heaven is the ultimate destination of Christians but not everyone goes there immediately after death?

And perhaps we should continue this conversation using PMs as it has nothing to do with this app.

No, hell itself. Purgatory is for little sins of life everyone commits, not the genuinely horrible people.

But yeah, this is second hand information. Studying Christian beliefs around the world wasn't my focus of study; this is from talking with someone who knew what they were talking about after years of research. I'm afraid I can't be much help to this discussion.

 

[SnakeswithLasers]

When did the shift happen in news and politics that every opinion, regardless of how stupid, was regarded as a precious voice that should be heard?

 

[Sofo]

Catholics don't believe sin can prevent entry to heaven. Purgatory was used as a means of raising money to expedite a loved one's entry to heaven even.

According to Catholics, sin does prevent entry to heaven. Not sure where you got that information from. What I was lectured about, when I was at the catholic school I went to, was that the tiniest sin would forbid you to enter heaven and thus had to remain in purgatory. Sins like the 10 commandments meant hell, whereas smaller than those would mean purgatory. You could only get in heaven once you were completely pure.

Not sure if they changed their doctrine, but that's what I was taught anyway.

 

[Dude Abides]

Fact is, many such apps, designed to help Atheists confront Christians, as well as counter-apps, designed to help Christians with Atheists, exist, and have for a long time. As far as I know, nobody, Christian or Atheist, has launched a mass petition drive on Apple to get these apps banned, even after a big feature in the New York Times featured them.

So congrats, you guys are now more into corporate censorship than Christians.

Is there supposed to be a point somewhere in here? Some apps are good, others are bad, what is wrong with wanting Apple not to publish terrible apps?

 

[levious]

According to Catholics, sin does prevent entry to heaven. Not sure where you got that information from. What I was lectured about, when I was at the catholic school I went to, was that the tiniest sin would forbid you to enter heaven and thus had to remain in purgatory. Sins like the 10 commandments meant hell, whereas smaller than those would mean purgatory. You could only get in heaven once you were completely pure.

Not sure if they changed their doctrine, but that's what I was taught anyway.

should have said "sin alone," I'm sure there's different ideologies within, but the concept of indulgences (?) have been used over the centuries to allow families to pay to shorten the time a dead loved one spends in purgatory. Whether or not that's aligned or accurate based on doctrine is another matter of course. Unforgiven sins keep you from heaven, but that's what confession is for, both on a regular basis and at the end of your life.

 

[ZephyrFate]

When did the shift happen in news and politics that every opinion, regardless of how stupid, was regarded as a precious voice that should be heard?

I have no idea but it's appalling.

JGS: It's more about just simple opinion disagreement. Look up the history of how vile Exodus International is and you'll see why this needs to be taken down. Likewise, an app about homosexuality should NOT be taken down because the people backing it are nonetheless most likely FAR better people than those who are involved in that organization.

 

[Bear]

When did the shift happen in news and politics that every opinion, regardless of how stupid, was regarded as a precious voice that should be heard?

It's not. It's just nothing that should be forcibly restricted. I completely disagree with this app from every angle (regarding religion and homosexuality), but they have the right to say it. Doesn't mean it's worth paying any attention to.

Ultimately, it's Apple's store and policy that's in play here, not legality or freedom of speech, but I don't see anything wrong with them keeping this. It's more a religion-oriented app as opposed to outright gay-bashing, though it has quite a bit of that too.

I don't like corporate censorship to begin with, and I don't want people to pressure Apple to increase it. Unless it is merely racism or gay-bashing (unfortunately, with a religious basis you can get away with more of that), then I don't expect Apple to take it down. People can vote with their dollar and reviews, and this sort of BS isn't approved of by most people anyway.

 

[Matt]

I would appreciate it if you could elaborate on this.

What restrictions do you perceive as harming the citizenry of Britain?

I'm not saying any specifics, I just used Australians and Britons as examples because those are the ones he used. I'll say that any citizenry that has it's right to freedom of speech limited is inherently hurt by that practice.

 

[SmokyDave]

I'm not saying any specifics, I just used Australians and Britons as examples because those are the ones he used. I'll say that any citizenry that has it's right to freedom of speech limited is inherently hurt by that practice.

I could say that any citizenry that has its right to bacon limited is inherently hurt by that practice but I'd probably be asked to produce reasons why.

I have the same freedoms that you do, to all intents and purposes. Possibly more, possibly less, depending on which news stories we duelled with.

 

[KtSlime]

I'm not saying any specifics, I just used Australians and Britons as examples because those are the ones he used. I'll say that any citizenry that has it's right to freedom of speech limited is inherently hurt by that practice.

I believe the purpose of freedom of speech is to keep government from restricting the voice of minority groups which inherently are easy to suppress by the lack of concern offered to them by the majority (i.e. the "Not my problem" defense).

I believe it to be quite silly to say that harm can be caused by having people desire for Apple, a private company not subject to enforcing freedom of speech, to remove this kind of bigotry. I'd be just as appalled by pro-racism/pro-slavery apps, and you should be too.

Frankly, I'd be fine with the government limiting freedom of speech in this regards as well, the free speech in advocation of the diminishment of human rights should not be tolerated: Yes, I am a bigot to bigotry.

 

[Pathetic Basement Virgin]

Why bitch about a computer program? There is nothing they can put on there that I would want banned outside of something calling for the killing of people.

 

[ZephyrFate]

Why bitch about a computer program? There is nothing they can put on there that I would want banned outside of something calling for the killing of people.

That would be their next program, knowing Exodus International's track record. Might as well stop them before they do.

 

[The Lamp]

That would be their next program, knowing Exodus International's track record. Might as well stop them before they do.

What makes you think Exodus International would support killing people? That's a stretchy conclusion.

 

[mclaren777]

That would be their next program, knowing Exodus International's track record. Might as well stop them before they do.

That is an ignorant statement.

 

[Matt]

I believe the purpose of freedom of speech is to keep government from restricting the voice of minority groups which inherently are easy to suppress by the lack of concern offered to them by the majority (i.e. the "Not my problem" defense).

I believe it to be quite silly to say that harm can be caused by having people desire for Apple, a private company not subject to enforcing freedom of speech, to remove this kind of bigotry. I'd be just as appalled by pro-racism/pro-slavery apps, and you should be too.

Frankly, I'd be fine with the government limiting freedom of speech in this regards as well, the free speech in advocation of the diminishment of human rights should not be tolerated: Yes, I am a bigot to bigotry.

These are two entirely different conversations. Apple has the right to do what they want with their store. It's not a free speech issue.

And you prove my point well with your comment. I'm a bigot towards bigotry too, which means I want to make sure everyone has the right to express their bigotry, lest I lose the right to express mine.

 

[Count Dookkake]

1) Pretty certain Pope Sidious scrapped Purgatory some time last year.

2) Someone on GAF should make a parody product, an "ex-straight" app. I would offer my assistance with the lolz.

 

[ZephyrFate]

What makes you think Exodus International would support killing people? That's a stretchy conclusion.

Read up on the recent gay rights scandal in Uganda funded and spread in a hegemonic manner by Exodus International. I've posted the link to the full history at least three times in this thread.

mclaren: No, it's not. What YOU usually say would be classified as such, but in this case, no.