You're gonna have to be more specific than that. Morrowind still has a lot of the archetypical Bethesda problems, but it also has unique aspects to make up for that which is specifically what people like about it.
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Fallout 4 is the perfect game
- Thread starter Trokil
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You're gonna have to be more specific than that. Morrowind still has a lot of the archetypical Bethesda problems, but it also has unique aspects to make up for that which is specifically what people like about it.
Rushersauce
Banned
Hahaha ok. Anything is "hyperbolic" these days. And, yes, they're less of an RPG than Borderlands.
Oh noes, I'm crazy.
Oh yes, it's totally my preference, most of my friends can't stand the way i like to play rpgs and the way i also agree that it would be horrible if games would do that. But my point was that restriction create more interesting stuff than being barely constrained.
I might not be the best articulating why something isn't good, but i just can't agree when somebody says that FO4 has an excellent rpg systems.
If i wasn't a fan of older Fallouts, and other Crpg i would probably enjoy Fallout 4 a lot more but as i am i just can't agree on that statement.
EDIT: Also i saw somebody compare Fallout 4 to the newer Far crys, i agree with him, it's a good comparison, the gameplay loop is pretty similar in fallout 4, well at least it was for me.
My least favorite Bethesda game yet by a good divide as I agree with almost all complaints leveled, but it does still manage to captivate with its style of world design that nudges my curiosity. It's the only factor that is keeping me playing(off and on at a sluggish pace).
Sadly many of the quests end up being predictable murder cleanup in thematically similar environments while the lack of real player-driven choice funnels you towards the same conclusions. Yet I am still gunning my way through(literally) so I can't outright say I absolutely dislike it. Xenoblade X came along and took little effort to rip me away almost entirely, but I have taken a few breaks to dive back into Boston throughout the past week, even if only to do a quest or two. I'll likely eventually see it through, but I won't be fondly recalling this journey in years to come the way I have prior entries.
Sadly many of the quests end up being predictable murder cleanup in thematically similar environments while the lack of real player-driven choice funnels you towards the same conclusions. Yet I am still gunning my way through(literally) so I can't outright say I absolutely dislike it. Xenoblade X came along and took little effort to rip me away almost entirely, but I have taken a few breaks to dive back into Boston throughout the past week, even if only to do a quest or two. I'll likely eventually see it through, but I won't be fondly recalling this journey in years to come the way I have prior entries.
Yeah, you are crazy. Cause in borderlands good luck at all having any choice in dialogue at all (F4 with its weak dialogue still gives you a lot more choice than Borderlands where you are literallly scripted) or what your character does or how they solve the problem. They are going to solve the problem by shooting waves of enemies. They have much less of a skill/perk system. Good luck sneaking you way about. Good luck even acting like anything other than your very set personality. Good luck having your charisma at all affect how people treat you. Good luck at all even choosing how people treat you. Hell, the only RPG thing about Borderlands is the character level system which is still minimal compared to even Fallout 4. And nothing else about Borderlands is RPG like. While F4 may be weaker in RPG elements it still has them.
Yeah... Fallout 4 sure is less of an RPG than Borderlands. At least even with its weak systems for doing so you can RP in Fallout. Borderlands you are playing a character and you are playing it like the game says you will. Try not being over dramatic before trying to make a point. You could be taken more seriously.
DaddyDonuts
Neo Member
I went back to Dragon Quest VIII a week after FO4 came out.
Sure, there's a lot to discover. a lot of CONTENT, combat's a bit more fun, but it's not really doing much for me. Being able to use every single item you pick up in one way or another was a poor choice, IMO. The crafting system isn't bad and the concept of rebuilding the wasteland with settlements is a good one, but the inventory management and regular returning to base to deposit your items is a real drag - especially with the piss-poor pipboy UI. It was neat enough to have worlds filled with objects that lent some flavor to the atmosphere and tone of the game - tying them all up into a feedback loop-heavy system like they've done with this game just makes it seem unnecessarily...gamey, I guess.
But level design leaves a lot to be desired with indoor locations - that "play how you want" mentality goes out the window when you enter another building of narrow corridors. It goes out the window even more when you consider how heavily straight forward gun fights are encouraged. Stealth is an option, but not really much of one from what I've seen so far. There's not a whole lot of wiggle room when it comes to *how* you approach things.
Patricia Hernandez over at Kotaku really hit the nail on the head for me. There aren't enough variety of verbs in this game. It's all kill kill kill - roleplaying takes a significant step back from New Vegas (and even Fallout 3).
Even after finishing DQVIII, I'm having a hard time finding a reason to give FO4 another try anytime soon.
Sure, there's a lot to discover. a lot of CONTENT, combat's a bit more fun, but it's not really doing much for me. Being able to use every single item you pick up in one way or another was a poor choice, IMO. The crafting system isn't bad and the concept of rebuilding the wasteland with settlements is a good one, but the inventory management and regular returning to base to deposit your items is a real drag - especially with the piss-poor pipboy UI. It was neat enough to have worlds filled with objects that lent some flavor to the atmosphere and tone of the game - tying them all up into a feedback loop-heavy system like they've done with this game just makes it seem unnecessarily...gamey, I guess.
But level design leaves a lot to be desired with indoor locations - that "play how you want" mentality goes out the window when you enter another building of narrow corridors. It goes out the window even more when you consider how heavily straight forward gun fights are encouraged. Stealth is an option, but not really much of one from what I've seen so far. There's not a whole lot of wiggle room when it comes to *how* you approach things.
Patricia Hernandez over at Kotaku really hit the nail on the head for me. There aren't enough variety of verbs in this game. It's all kill kill kill - roleplaying takes a significant step back from New Vegas (and even Fallout 3).
Even after finishing DQVIII, I'm having a hard time finding a reason to give FO4 another try anytime soon.
As I said, I can't get that reference cause I haven't played those. I have played Borderlands which I consider an FPS with some RPG elements (more than Bioshock which other people consider RPG like <- I think that one barely even qualifies honestly). And he apparently has said it's worse than Borderlands. If that is how you two feel, see my post to him. You're absolutely ignoring a whole lot of stuff about F4 if you really think it's less RPG like than Borderlands. It still is a lot more RPG like than Borderlands. Please don't mistake them weakening aspects to making them gone entirely. Oh, and if you think us who are arguing F4 is still an RPG is bad, wait til you meet people who argue Bioshock is an RPG (ugh!!!!). Borderlands is a little bit better but still annoys me when people call it an RPG. But calling Bioshock an RPG to me is as bad as you people saying F4 is less of an RPG than Borderlands.
As for the perk system, me and the other person explained why we still feel it's restricted. You aren't going to reach that level of getting everything before you are done with the game. Not unless you are just totally outright obsessed with the game. It's still limiting because one progression is slow enough you'll quickly realize that would be just obnoxious to wait until you could get every perk you wanted and it still encourages you to prioritize where you want your character to be. And two, you are going to be doing quests in the meantime unless you really do just love grinding a lot (even I've done quests and I spent a lot of my time exploring and doing nothing cause I had a bug that was going to stop me from being able to do the main story, thankfully fixed). So you are going to want to have some of those perks before those quests and you are going to have to decide which. I think you're focusing too much on the potential to have everything and not looking at how much work that would be to get there. That in itself is limiting.
It's still limiting. It just means if you are truly that obsessed with the game that you just want to keep playing, you'll have that option for a lot longer. Which is why I actually like no level limit (I hated level limits in previous Fallouts mainly cause I love the games so much I saw it as a, "This is where nothing more happens." I probably will never reach the level you need to have everything in 4 but I like knowing the game isn't going to stop letting me progress if I want to keep playing, or rather that that point is a lot longer away).
I am not arguing F4 is not a weaker RPG. I definitely agree there. Just my reasons are different than yours (the dialogue system which was a huge step backwards in terms of RPG and so much wrong with it itself including no skill/stat checks in it other than Charisma that it is why I think it's a weaker RPG).
Overall I love the game but I do think it's a weaker RPG. Just the perk system I think is totally fine. I don't find it an improvement nor do I find it a detriment. It's just different.
The way far cry 3 and 4 play is a kinda similar to how Fallout 4 plays, you can basically choose a direction just start wandering and stumble into stuff while you clear away camps of badguys and make those outposts available for the faction you are working with. There is also skills and you make your own loadout and approach to situations so there's that type of "rpg flexibility". They are not rpgs but they contain loot, sidequests and tend to have multiple endings, however i wouldn't go as far as to say that Fallout 4 isn't an rpg, but it's more on the lighter side of that spectrum. Which is not bad, but it's not what i was looking for in Fallout4 even though i had some fun with the game.
Also i just want to add that i actually haven't liked the direction Far cry went after the second game, but i can see why people like the shit out of them.
That final line is something i can get behind, i don't really have anything else to add, it was a good ending line.
Rushersauce
Banned
Jesus, not only putting words I didn't say, but actually arguing against those non existing words (when I meant they're, I meant FarCry).
And, kind of an hipocryt you are, when you turned dramatic when people said F4 is less an RPG than previous entries, which is the truth.
MMaRsu
Member
I never said its trash, ive put over 70 hours in.
Its really not much of an rpg. i love the exploration and talking to folks. Sad about no roleplaying and nog being able to define your character and very limited dialogue options. Havent finished the main questline yet but its got some weird choices so far.
Im 29 by the way, but I like Fallout New Vegas a lot better than this game.
Megalosaro
Banned
Someone said Fallout was soulless?
Wtf. Play the US Constitution mission asap.
Wtf. Play the US Constitution mission asap.
uncelestial
Member
So you would give it like a 9.5 then?
orthodoxy1095
Banned
Look, the gunplay and exploration are fun. I enjoyed exploring Boston and seeing spots I knew. Buddy characters can be pretty fun too. I rather enjoyed Piper actually. The settlement building might even be right up your alley.
But I draw the line at RPG systems being "excellent." They're pretty bad and mostly what they do is serve the player the illusion of having meaningful input.
triplestation
Member
the only issue i have with it is that THERE AREN'T ENOUGH NEW CREATURES
the mirelurk queen and the assaultron are the only new creatures that are really noteworthy, the rest aren't really much to rave about
everything else is just a redone version of what we've seen before
we saw the return of the older creatures in the trailers and to me that spoke as if theyre saying "here's some things you've seen before but we don't wanna reveal exciting new things in the trailer so we'll let you discover those on your own".. only there really isn't much else aside from the mirelurk queen
this still bugs me, i wanted plenty of fresh experiences of scary NEW creatures.. not just one or two so to me this was such a disappointment
so i'm hoping to zeus that there will be PLENTY of scary new material in a DLC
the mirelurk queen and the assaultron are the only new creatures that are really noteworthy, the rest aren't really much to rave about
everything else is just a redone version of what we've seen before
we saw the return of the older creatures in the trailers and to me that spoke as if theyre saying "here's some things you've seen before but we don't wanna reveal exciting new things in the trailer so we'll let you discover those on your own".. only there really isn't much else aside from the mirelurk queen
this still bugs me, i wanted plenty of fresh experiences of scary NEW creatures.. not just one or two so to me this was such a disappointment
so i'm hoping to zeus that there will be PLENTY of scary new material in a DLC
JudgmentJay
Member
I think it's good but not great. The voiced protagonist and dumbed down dialogue options take it down a few notches for me. 7.5/10 it's the best I can do.
LookAtMeGo
Member
I agree with that. Could always use more enemies. Have you seen a Mirelurk King yet?
I cant remember if the kings were in FO3.. if they are I never saw one.
joecanada
Member
When referring to the blue key thing I'm just referring to in general I welcomed in the Era of open world after tiring of straight linear stories where I had to jump through a bunch of hoops to get through some area.
As for endings I'm using other posters complaints that 4 only has 4 endings I haven't finished it yet myself. But when I hear you go on about factions slides and variables sorry I'm just basically tuning out because it's like I'm not in any universe going to play NV 29 different times. In NV I did about 2 basic endings, you are basically siding with one faction or another it's not that complicated. And it is cool that NV may let you kill this guy or hack that thing and do things more your way for sure... But I do like in Fo4 there is no level cap so they could in fact let you play your specific character but in actual fact you are building a superhero so all those options would be a breeze unless your goal was to finish the game early.
Fo4 could have had more options to do more stuff your way for sure but I respect Ops assertion that less is more. The more they tell you, the less you are associated with your character. You can never really break this weakness in open world games until the far off future where you speak in your headset and the game knows what you want. Otherwise you could put a dialogue wheel with 25 options in...
When I play the game I feel fully immersed, when I hit the dialogue with say a faction I'm like oh god I just want to tell this dude to fuck off. But it's pretty rare that a game ever has or will have enough dialogue options to cover everything I want to do, I've accepted that and it's worth it for the balance of playing a whole world and exploring it and it is a great world
water_wendi
Water is not wet!
Actually there is more than 2 basic endings because all 29 slides are one ending detailing what you did and the fallout from your choices. The game gives you an ending for each place you visited and group you interacted with.
So you like Fallout 4 because there is no level cap and can feel like a superhero? Okay. Thats a perfectly valid reason for liking 4 over the others.
In role-playing games more options is more because you are given the opportunity and option to choose decisions based on your character and build. Having a game with limited options where you play make-believe to fill in the gaps because they werent implemented by the game developers makes for a pretty poor rpg imo.
Well im glad you are having fun with it.
They lack the atmosphere that the 3D games bring, and that is a huge part of the attraction of Fallout.
Those shitty 2D graphics don't make it feel like you're exploring a vast apocalyptic wasteland.
But how would you reach level 370?
How can everyone's character end up the same?
I just got to the
and I have lost almost all interest in the game.
One of the worst things they did was not to seperate the "repeatable" quests from the normal ones. They should have put all that stuff in the misc section.
The dialogue system has almost no impact. Mosts quests are: go there and fetch an item, while killing everything standing in your way.
Institute
One of the worst things they did was not to seperate the "repeatable" quests from the normal ones. They should have put all that stuff in the misc section.
The dialogue system has almost no impact. Mosts quests are: go there and fetch an item, while killing everything standing in your way.
I platinumed Fallout 4.
It's the best flawed game of this generation. Opposite of perfect.
Second best flawed game would be MGS5.
Both suffered from bad development cycles. Whether the Kojima issue before launch or the vacuum that Fallout 4 was developed in.
So amazing dev teams with bad publishers (Konami and Bethesda) that didn't give those dev teams either enough time, enough budget, or the right quality assurances teams.
It's the best flawed game of this generation. Opposite of perfect.
Second best flawed game would be MGS5.
Both suffered from bad development cycles. Whether the Kojima issue before launch or the vacuum that Fallout 4 was developed in.
So amazing dev teams with bad publishers (Konami and Bethesda) that didn't give those dev teams either enough time, enough budget, or the right quality assurances teams.
Solid Samus
Banned
hit up google and type in Mart's Mutant Mod
Fallout 4's own MMM will be created and will have already become a staple of FO4 modding within a month or two of GECK dropping, I bet.
catpurrcat
Member
Love the fact there isn't a "proper" way to play. You just go with the flow. And tackle the missions the way YOU want. Such variety of enemies between ghouls and raiders and bugs and animals and scavengers.
I guess this is why I don't enjoy games like souls and bloodborne and even witcher. I love being lost but still being able to find my way out by using common sense and exploration. There isn't one right answer, but several "better" answers on how to get things done.
Lots to learn here as my first fallout game, some frustration, but nothing Google and the guide can't answer.
10/10. What a wild ride so far. The feelings of isolation, then you get some upgrades and bam, you've got (partial) control back of your life.
I guess this is why I don't enjoy games like souls and bloodborne and even witcher. I love being lost but still being able to find my way out by using common sense and exploration. There isn't one right answer, but several "better" answers on how to get things done.
Lots to learn here as my first fallout game, some frustration, but nothing Google and the guide can't answer.
10/10. What a wild ride so far. The feelings of isolation, then you get some upgrades and bam, you've got (partial) control back of your life.
SpacePirate Ridley
Member
Its not really a good game, its the only thing I can add.
Im having a blast with new vegas now.
EDIT
Oh man, the whole OP is using opinions as facts and is soooo wrong. Its a little bit PR sounding...
Im having a blast with new vegas now.
EDIT
Oh man, the whole OP is using opinions as facts and is soooo wrong. Its a little bit PR sounding...
Denton
Member
This post. It's the worst post.
I agree FO3/NV/4 have great atmosphere. But FO1/2 have unforgettable atmosphere in their own right.
Have you reached the endgame yet? Because the illusion of freedom disappears very quickly.
The 2D graphics are perfectly functional and still look well executed today after 20 years. I think the only real problem is that the environments look a bit more obviously tiled than some of the 2D RPGs that came out later like Baldur's Gate 2. (not that this isn't also an issue with Bethesda's games and large scale reuse of modular art assets) Bethesda's 3D presentation is much more up in your face, and therefore also much more open to scrutiny when it comes to judging the quality of the visuals. Things like texture quality, character models and faces, their animations, lighting, etc. becomes much more important, and these age much faster which is also compounded by the fact that Bethesda simply struggles with keeping up with their contemporaries in those fields. Fallout 3 was already looking pretty rough when it was new in 2008, and today it just looks downright primitive. And it's only going to look worse and worse as time goes on, at a significantly faster rate than the older games.
Not to mention that even in Fallout 4 they're still having problems with polygonal reproductions of the gory death animations from the first games with the same amount of intricate detail. In Fallout 3 they couldn't have the same detailed vaporization/melting deaths from energy weapons, so they just hide what's going on behind thick clouds while the model is instantly swapped out for a pile on the ground. Haven't seen those deaths in F4 yet but I doubt things have really changed.
These sorts of things are why I find the "Fallout 1 and 2 look old and bad" arguments kind of ridiculous. I'm sure people were saying the same about Street Fighter 2 when Street Fighter EX was current.
Simon Belmont
Banned
Repairing weapons was really that big a deal for you?
I've heard a lot of criticism about Fallout 1/2. But that's a first about lack of atmosphere.
Nah, 2D graphics just don't do it for me.
I struggle to get immersed as it is.
Isometric doesn't cut it these days I'm afraid.
Leaving the vault for the first time in Fallout 3 is the absolutely best thing ever in the Fallout series.
1,2 and tactics don't come close to that, at all.
Not in itself, but those kind of role-playing elements were cool. It kept you sharp and busy at points. They seemed to degrade rather fast in 3 and NV, but removing it completely? I feel that slowing the breaking process would be a better choice.
But who am I.
Simon Belmont
Banned
Seems like it wasn't a big deal until it was taken away. Guns didn't break down in 1 & 2, and the games didn't noticeably suffer for it. If you liked that mechanic, you're going to love crafting.
triplestation
Member
okay this is what im talking about
there needs to be more disturbing looking monsters in fallout because what we're getting now is too clean looking for a decaying wasteland environment
YEah, but I think for RPG fans they like those hoops. For example I like how F4 started doing character quests and you have to unlock them but I still prefer how NV did it where you had to hit certain trigger points. Not just do an action they like a lot. I mean some of the characters if you really wanted to unlock the quest the best way is to look up what certain things you could do and you could miss out on being able to do them. You can't possibly miss the trigger points to unlock quests for F4 characters, if nothing else you can just do some action (like hacking for Nick) a lot to get them to like you.
We like it cause it causes us to have to think and figure it out. It makes it a little more puzzle like which honestly is part of the fun of an RPG to me (having to figure things out).
I think you are missing the point that we like each little action actually has an effect on the game. Even if it is small (like we end up with one character hating us). It's much neater than just having four endings where it just matters which faction you joined but nothing else you did really affects much (now, I have no idea if this is true or people are exagerating here cause I do think I'm seeing a lot of exageration on the side of people who are outright not liking F4 or who think it outright is not an RPG period).
And I think their point is they want to be forced to make a choice. And I think both you and they are wrong here. I think the system still does make you make a choice because you're not going to be that hero that can do everything until it's far past mostly finishing the game. Where I think having no level cap is an advantage though is if some one is just truly having fun messing around in the gameworld and doesn't want to stop it allows them to play longer and still get rewards for levelling up longer. But honestly, I think the system still makes you prioritize cause you won't get to do most quests being a superhero because the progression is not going to be fast enough.
Ok, yes, you're never going to be able to say exactly what you want. But usually I could find something close. Also, I think what you're missing here is that if you want to play a good character the dialogue is fine. But if you want to play an evil character or outright bastard, they pretty much left that option out. The dialogue choices in 4 aren't varied enough. Sure, they can't do every response, but they should have covered more of a spectrum rather than have several shades of good/agreeing. Hell, most of the responses is you agreeing to something. or sometimes you didn't even agree and it agreed for you anyways (just yesterday I made a snarky response to the brotherhood, hadn't agreed to do anything yet and she thanks me for agreeing to do it! Even my BF who doesn't really pay much attention noticed that and we were both laughing at the stupidity of it). There is no way to even refuse to do something.
The dialogue does not allow you to play who you want. You're playing the character Bethesda envisions. Kind of like in Witcher except in Witcher you are supposed to be playing a set character where people like Bethesda games for being able to create whoever they want. It's a very valid complaint for this game.
No, previous games couldn't predict every single response some one might give, but they had enough of a spectrum you could find something close enoguh or at least in a similar spirit to what you wanted to say.
And I'm no F4 hater, if you haven't noticed I've been mostly defending the game in this thread. Doesn't mean I don't think some of the points are valid either though.
I liked the mechanic too and I was vehemently arguing why I thought it was bad they removed it before I played the game. But my reason for liking it was because it forced me to have to strategize about what I carry with me. Because they now have crafting and a lot of junk is useful, I still have that aspect of the game anyways so I'm not too upset.
orthodoxy1095
Banned
Wasteland 2, Shadowrun and Divinity: Original Sin laugh in your face.
Seriously though, nah...Isometric games are still damn fine looking. If anything, they actually age far more gracefully than 3D games like Fallout 3/4/NV will.
I prefer the newer style Fallouts as a whole (though 2 is my 2nd favorite Fallout and 3 is now probably my fourth favorite behind 4). But, I have to agree here. The isometric ones don't really age imho. For one you don't really need super good graphics for that type game. The first person/third person/3D world kind of game that Bethesda does relies a lot more on graphics for its exploration/gameplay. So, yeah, 3 + beyond Fallouts are going to get dated a lot quicker (that doesn't mean I still don't find them enjoyable. New Vegas is my favorite Fallout and it's about as dated looking as 3).
And yeah, there is still a place for isometric and turn based RPGs in todays world. I love Wasteland 2 and am glad it came to the PS4. Oh, and one can like both damnit. I'm sick of this feeling that I'm supposed to pick sides or something.
orthodoxy1095
Banned
It probably wouldn't have had the mass appeal of 3D, but I can't help but wish that Chris Bischoff's imagining of Fallout 4 as an isometric game was real....
That looks absolutely fantastic.
Opinions and all but you are terribly wrong