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Fallout 4's writing is really problematic

Y2Kev

TLG Fan Caretaker Est. 2009
I think I’m pretty far into Fallout 4 now and I have to say this game has some of the weakest writing in any Bethesda game I’ve played to date. In Oblivion, Fallout 3, and Skyrim, I thought the “gaps” in the logic of the plot and characters were present though perhaps exaggerated, but here for the first time I think they actively dilute my enjoyment of the game. The lack of narrative focus, absolutely constant and bizarre character and faction motivation, and, perhaps most important, the paucity of reliable information given to players to actually make reasonable decisions (harming player agency) have not gotten enough attention from the community at large, I think.

Everyone’s written about the stilted intro and how cartoonish the factions are in their ultimate end games, which, aside from the intro, I don’t think is a new problem for Bethesda. Typically, though, I feel like at least as a player I’ve experienced the narrative and characters in a linear fashion such that the information presented to me usually is coherent. For example, the plot of Fallout 3 is sugary stuff, but I don’t remember it being delivered out of sequence (that is, characters referencing things they had no business knowing) even if you reach Rivet City early because of the way the dialogue was constructed. Here I feel like every character is clearly just a waypoint to the next story mission, and characters that either don’t know me or don’t know what I’ve done are referencing things they have no business knowing. I was playing a mission and one of the side characters told me I should use my dog to help sniff out a trail. At first I said to myself…wow, that’s a great idea! And then I was more impressed by how this character knew I had a dog.

Too many characters in the game, particularly those who lead factions, expect you to act without reasonable motivations. When you’re given a motivation, and you want to learn more about it or perhaps question it, the dialogue system is not equipped for you to do so. This seems to be compounded by the nonlinearity of the game, which means that some of the characters in each faction seem reasonable and consistent until they’re not. Dr. Li at the Institute is my favorite example. So I got pretty far along in the Brotherhood of Steel questline while I was simultaneously pursuing the main story. I got the “Get Dr. Li back” quest and headed off to the Institute for the first time. I met her and she was pretty nasty to me and swore up and down she’d never leave the Institute for the Brotherhood. But, whatever, I got her to leave for a “secret project” after a short quest that took me about 10 minutes. Then it turns out the secret project is her basically working on a giant robot that carries massive nuclear bombs. Wonder what that will be used for?

As I’m pursuing these questlines, I’m realizing I don’t have enough information to know where I’m actually going with any of this. The Brotherhood hates the Institute. The Institute believes in enslaving synths because whatever (I have done a few missions and basically I am not sure what their issue is entirely yet…not hopeful it will convincingly materialize). The Minutemen, the peaceful vanguards of the Commonwealth, suddenly want to destroy everyone else. I’m also being asked to destroy the Railroad by everyone. I’ve only been there once or twice and they seemed like nasty people, but I’m not even sure why some groups hate other groups. And why is Danse such a big dumbass after “his” twist? Shouldn’t he want to help me go one way in particular?

I’m pretty surprised by how little information I feel I have to make a decision. In New Vegas, I feel like I was asked to make an informed decision between a few factions with obviously conflicting objectives. Nobody was perfect, but each side had their particular viewpoint reinforced by what I was seeing in the world. In Fallout 4, I feel like I have to make a choice without knowing the implications of said choice among a bunch of groups that seem to hate each other just because (and some groups hate each other for reasons I am not even really sure of). This seems like really basic stuff and a big regression even from their earlier works for Bethesda, and it really doesn’t work at all with the dialogue system.

I just feel so completely in the dark about everything. I very obviously don’t want to continue with the Brotherhood questline because I’m pretty sure I know what that robot is going to do when I know so little about the other factions (despite having worked with most of them for quite some time).

If I were Bethesda, without even improving the quality of the writing overall, I think I would less stringently demarcate “this is where the story will branch” to players. I feel so conflicted because the story has obviously branched, and I feel like any decision I make may be held against me because I wasn’t able to fully understand the consequence of what I was doing. I think I would also try to ensure the player gets more time through the main quest with each faction because the main quest ultimately requires you to pick a side.

I’m pretty bummed about how this game turned out. It just seems like the story, perhaps matching the gameplay, is a collection of poorly executed ideas and themes that feels like a “greatest hits” version of their previous games without the care or consideration given to any of them in their original incarnations.
 

Ushay

Member
Excellent post, pretty much sums up my thoughts on the narrative in FO4. I enjoyed it on the whole, but the writing was jarring at times almost patronising in it's simplicity.

I think Bethesda's biggest failing was their inability to present us with a tangible choice we would realistically be able to take .. for example;

Being able to negotiate a truce between Faction X and Faction Y, or taking on everyone and being your own Faction. It felt very Mass Effect 3 like in that regard. Linear and very single minded writing.
 

Pilgrimzero

Member
I have seen several people mention the Railroad is as bad as the others but I don't see it.

BoS and Inst are straight up murderers.
 

LiK

Member
The dialogue is just bad in the main story. I like the concepts and several sidestories but most of the NPCs in the story campaign are just not that great. I think I only like a few of my companions so far. Bethesda does pretty good lore but when they attempt to construct a main story in these games, they come off awkward and dumb.

Also, why do they always force us to choose between factions?
 

Mifec

Member
I find problematic to be a funny word, I had to get this out of my system.

As for Fallout 4 writting, yes it's horrible by the time I got to
The Institute
I just closed the game, the story is really really bad and uninspired. It might actually be worse than AK which took the cake for me this year.

we knew this before the game was even released breh

Never expected it to be THIS bad.
 
Everything felt worse than the previous games but after the shit opening I kinda just lowered my expectations going forward. Fallout 4 isn't a very good game. Especially when you compare it to previous titles.
 

CHC

Member
Not having enough information can really be the Achilles heel of RPGs. Like you said, I would gladly take worse minute-to-minute writing that at least gives me an idea of what each major player is "all about," rather than writing that tries and fails to be interesting or smart, but fails to characterize or define any of the important things in the world.

I think it's probably a by-product of two things:

1) Trying to keep the player "surprised." This is often a HUGELY overestimated trait of a good story. Surprises, if done well, can be good, but if done poorly (which they often are) the player is given so little information along the way that they don't even recognize what was supposed to be so shocking in the first place. If someone isn't established as a helpful good guy, for instance, then the impact of them betraying you will be minimal.

2) Poor planning. Fallout 4 is a huge game and I can't even imagine how much stuff was changed / cut / introduced / re-introduced during development. This is the simple answer.
 
Yep. This and how the game really doesn't take account for any of the decisions you make.

Piper: You're a terrible person for siding with the Institute. This is unforgivable.
Me: (relationship status prompt)
Piper: I love you! <3 <3 <3
 
How? They said that they took the writing criticisms of their other recent games seriously.

Toddlers Howard also said that Fallout 4 will offer more ways to resolve quests / situations non-violently.

2883999-7054562775-k7kpM.jpg
 

Sheroking

Member
I think this general sentiment stems from the fact that, for the first time in any ES or Fallout game under Bethesda, you're playing an actual character you're meant to flesh out rather than a soulless, voiceless husk.

In Oblivion, FO3 and Skyrim, whatever motivations you personally concoct are good enough to explain away your character's choices. In Fallout 4, we know a bit about the character and have the ask questions like "why is a dad desperate to find his (apparently) infant son stopping to collect tin cans and help an insane doctor build a giant mech?".

As much as I see where you're coming from, though, I don't generally agree about the writing in Fallout 4. Through Fallout 3, Skyrim and Oblivion, there are very few actual characters and the ones that do exist are pretty much just personality tropes there to advance the games meager plot. There's far better characterization in Fallout 4, particularly among the companion characters, than any other Bethesda game in this line and I take that a big step in the right direction for future games.

Though, yes, the games central plot is messy in the extreme.
 

Auctopus

Member
Fallout 3 and Skyrim felt like this to me as well. Whatever Bethesda games are hailed for, I certainly didnt think it was narrative or dialogue.
 

LiK

Member
Fallout 3 and Skyrim felt like this to me as well. Whatever Bethesda games are hailed for, I certainly didnt think it was narrative or dialogue.

the main reason I love the games is for the atmosphere. I think they nail that pretty well.
 

tuxfool

Banned
saying you took criticism to heart means nothing when you flat out dont have the talent to do otherwise

But you might as well not admit to doing so if your results are so ineffectual. These are comments from the creative lead, who one would imagine has the power to correct those issues top down.
 
I love Fallout 4 to death, but its writing really is pretty bad. None of the factions are compelling and all are complete assholes. It tried to look at what New Vegas did and failed pretty horribly. Instead of presenting factions that are morally gray and able to be reasoned with, we get four groups of assholes that require you to murder the other groups of assholes.

I dunno, at this point I think Bethesda just needs to hire a better writer or two. It's a shame really, because I think Fallout 4 is an excellent game. I just don't think about the main quest too much.

the main reason I love the games is for the atmosphere. I think they nail that pretty well.

Yup. Their worldbuilding is unparallelled.

I have seen several people mention the Railroad is as bad as the others but I don't see it.

BoS and Inst are straight up murderers.

The Railroad is a shadowy, overly compartmentalized spy agency. Instead of sticking to that, they just declare war on the Brotherhood and start murdering them.

It's pretty clear the Institute was meant to be the evil option, since they're the ones that murder people and replace them with robots. The Brotherhood tries to be the NCR from New Vegas, but fails. The Railroad presents an alternative to that, replacing the potential stability the Brotherhood brings to the region with some mopey "bu-bu-bu synths are people too"-whining. The Minutemen are the wild card option.

It's a shame you can't shape the ending and events a bit more, like you could in New Vegas. The idea was clearly there, like when you can convince Maxson to relent during Danse's loyalty quest. But it just feels like they ran out of time and ideas and said "fuck it, murder everyone."
 

h3ad0rZ

Member
I have seen several people mention the Railroad is as bad as the others but I don't see it.

BoS and Inst are straight up murderers.
Agree, from what I tried to juggle between these three faction quests,
Railroad doesn't directly attack anyone first
.
 

lt519

Member
By decision time you were supposed to feel something for Synths. Hatred, empathy, superiority, or indifference. You were then supposed to align your beliefs with one of the factions' corresponding beliefs. Problem is the game's story never really gave you a reason to feel any of those things. The time from the story shifting from the main character's arc to making a decision about the fate of the commonwealth was minuscule and jumped to a huge decision you hadn't been preparing or cared for. All you cared about was your son and then two minutes later you are choosing sides, eliminating copmetition, and changing the Commonwealth forever.

Love the game but the story was silly and had zero impact on me. Maybe the problem was I fell into the indifferent category and too many others did. They never pulled us into the game enough to care about the fate of the Synths. It made no difference to me. I did pick Railroad though but easily could have gone Minutemen.
 

nbnt

is responsible for the well-being of this island.
I don't see how people can see the railroad as the bad group. Very interesting...
Yeah I'm curious about this too. In my first playthrough I saw them as: Railroad = good, Brotherhood = bad, Inst = IhaveNoIdeaWhatImDoing.jpg
 

Wingus

Member
It falls apart in the last act. I've beaten the damn thing three times and still do not know what the institute was trying to accomplish. Seriously.

The best writing is when the environment tells its story. The side cast is quite exquisite as well. Macgready comes to mind as does Valentine.

I agree with this, and the same thing applied to FO3 and New Vegas as well. Discovering what happened in the vaults or towns by exploring was more interesting than the main arc. Vault 11 in NV is a highlight.

In FO4, I do like some of the character arcs for the companions; MacCready, in particular, given how he was in FO3.
 

Roarer

Member
I totally see where you're coming from and think your argument is valid, but the lack of narrative focus is what made the world and the story so enjoyable for me. Since nothing felt connected or properly written I had to fill in the gaps myself and connect the dots where the game left a lot of blank spaces.

I can totally see why this would be jarring and off putting for a lot of people, but for some reason it really clicked with me. It might be because nothing about the game seems "real" anyway, from the lame animations to the cartoony characters (not to mention the glitchy nature of the games systems). There was no reason for me to expect things to follow any kind of logic, or present it that way at least. The abstraction allowed for me to flesh out my own story.
 

Cleve

Member
It drives me up the wall that you can't confront
Shaun about his lack of ethics once you find the FEV lab and what he was encouraging as well as the general treatment of the non-institute settlers.
that seems like such an obvious conversation but there isn't even a way to mention it when you return to him.

Also, why the fuck does everyone want everyone else dead in the end? The railroad's first 'choice' for me is to go against the minute men? Where the fuck does that even come from?
 

KTallguy

Banned
The game is definitely more sandboxy... I've gotten really bored after realizing that my interaction with the story/characters is really limited.

I rolled a high charisma/perception character and have rarely, if ever, needed to make any check vs charisma.

There's almost no opportunity to negotiate with enemy leaders and bring them down either.
 

Begaria

Member
A Bethesda game has weak writing? Get atta here ;)

I agree. What's keeping me going in Fallout 4 is that I am genuinely enjoying wandering the wasteland just getting in to trouble. I like scavenging and seeing what random thing will happen next. I'm playing on PC and I ran into one of those problematic writing parts:

https://twitter.com/Begaria/status/678739883121246208

I don't need three dialogue options to say "goodbye", Bethesda. Thank goodness for that full dialogue mod on PC.
 

tuxfool

Banned
It drives me up the wall that you can't confront
Shaun about his lack of ethics once you find the FEV lab and what he was encouraging as well as the general treatment of the non-institute settlers.
that seems like such an obvious conversation but there isn't even a way to mention it when you return to him.

Heh. It is almost as bad as this from FO3:

 

Y2Kev

TLG Fan Caretaker Est. 2009
Also, why the fuck does everyone want everyone else dead in the end? The railroad's first 'choice' for me is to go against the minute men? Where the fuck does that even come from?
Yeah, this is what I mean. There's no logical motivation for these two groups and so they feel forced into the end game.
 

Matush

Member
Fully agree with you OP. As much as I like Fallout 4, main story and writing in general (there are few exceptions, Human Error mission for example) is disappointing. Like in previous Fallout games, enviromental story telling is still superb.
 

Nesther

Member
Gotta say I prefered the storyline more compared to the insanity that was Fallout 3's water quest. The Railroad vs Institute angle is what puts it above F3's.

The Brotherhood was fucking dumb and generic though, only went through their questline for the trophies.

What I disliked most was the dialogue wheel though, it added nothing of value to me, and actually just made me dislike my own character. His dialogue choices were often pretty bad and not what I expected.
 

Cleve

Member
The game is definitely more sandboxy... I've gotten really bored after realizing that my interaction with the story/characters is really limited.

I rolled a high charisma/perception character and have rarely, if ever, needed to make any check vs charisma.

There's almost no opportunity to negotiate with enemy leaders and bring them down either.

It saddened me greatly that there are so many named NPC gang leaders and the only thing you can do is murder them. After seeing the load screen tip about lowering your weapon I tried to surrender or negotiate with them. Not a single fucking one worked. The names just mean they might have special loot.

The vast majority of charisma checks were "more caps, even more caps, and please, I have ten charisma, I 'd really like a lot of caps". I can't remember more than one or two other ones. There also were no dialogue checks I came across related to any other stat or perk, which as someone who like playing these games as a talker really just sucked ass.
 

Tal

Member
The faction interaction is weird in that it's basically copying New Vegas' structure, but since the factions are different and have different motivations they shouldn't just want to all kill each other.
 

onken

Member
If I were Bethesda, without even improving the quality of the writing overall, I think I would less stringently demarcate “this is where the story will branch” to players. I feel so conflicted because the story has obviously branched, and I feel like any decision I make may be held against me because I wasn’t able to fully understand the consequence of what I was doing. I think I would also try to ensure the player gets more time through the main quest with each faction because the main quest ultimately requires you to pick a side.

To be fair there is a big old disclaimer before each of the major decisions "this action will cause you to be a permanent enemy of X" so it's not like you don't know when to turn back and continue the other quest lines if you want to experience them all. Though I agree with your wider point, it was very annoying playing a diplomatic pacifist all the way through the game and then when it actually matter being forced to choose which 2/3 sides you wish to annihilate on the flimsiest of pretenses.
 
I love Fallout 4 to death, but its writing really is pretty bad. None of the factions are compelling and all are complete assholes. It tried to look at what New Vegas did and failed pretty horribly. Instead of presenting factions that are morally gray and able to be reasoned with, we get four groups of assholes that require you to murder the other groups of assholes.

I dunno, at this point I think Bethesda just needs to hire a better writer or two. It's a shame really, because I think Fallout 4 is an excellent game. I just don't think about the main quest too much.



Yup. Their worldbuilding is unparallelled.



The Railroad is a shadowy, overly compartmentalized spy agency. Instead of sticking to that, they just declare war on the Brotherhood and start murdering them.

It's pretty clear the Institute was meant to be the evil option, since they're the ones that murder people and replace them with robots. The Brotherhood tries to be the NCR from New Vegas, but fails. The Railroad presents an alternative to that, replacing the potential stability the Brotherhood brings to the region with some mopey "bu-bu-bu synths are people too"-whining. The Minutemen are the wild card option.

It's a shame you can't shape the ending and events a bit more, like you could in New Vegas. The idea was clearly there, like when you can convince Maxson to relent during Danse's loyalty quest. But it just feels like they ran out of time and ideas and said "fuck it, murder everyone."
This game's subtitle should have been "Fuck it, Murder Everyone."

I've only just started Molecular Level and I don't give a shit about spoilers at this point. I have no opinion on synths other than that almost everyone I've met has tried to kill me (Nick is awesome though, the companions mostly are). I hate the Railroad and Brotherhood. Glory and Dez are asshole and I just want to shoot them. Maxson ruined what made the East Coast Brotherhood good. I've actually made seperate saves and have gone on rampages wiping out both.

The Minutemen seem to actually care about people, plus the Castle is really cool. But I can't actually progress because Old Guns is glitched for me.

If I get the chance I will personally kill Maxson and Dez with my bare fists.
 

lt519

Member
Synths had such potential too, probably more potential than anything on FO3 or NV.

Yeah, I just re-watched Blade Runner last night. FO4 could have done so much more. They went from revenge story to trying to tackle a complex subject in the blink of an eye and expected you to make a decision based off of very little emotional investment or knowledge of the situation.
 

Rei_Toei

Fclvat sbe Pnanqn, ru?
It came to the point of me completely fumbling
Bunker Hill
without really understanding how that clusterfuck happened. Really, the storylines of the three/four factions right now are really not making much sense. You also get away with straight up murdering your supposed allies' foot soldiers for a very long time. Like, no fucks were given at the BoS
when we shot a Vertibird out of the air above Libertalia, meanwhile the Institute doesn't give two fucks I wasted like 50 Synths in that fishcanning factory...

I was expecting I could become a faction myself with the Minutemen and just say 'fuck you' to all the other involved parties - or at least form an alliance of sorts with them.

Well, there's always DLC..
 

AHA-Lambda

Member
Can't disagree, the main quest's handling of the different factions is just a mess.

I sided with the railroad, strangely enough in contrast to the OP as they didn't seem like arseholes. The minutemen were just plain bland, institute were dicks, and frankly I didn't get enough time with Brotherhood before they were considered my enemies.

The motivation for each is either superficial or flimsy. I've long criticised the Institute's motivations in particular; they want a nuclear power source to continue their work.
Ok, what work?
We know you want to use science and technology to further mankind even if it is just a chosen elite, but how are you going to do that?
And what are the synths for exactly? The impression I got was they were just tools, no real explanation or depth was given.

Minutemen? Just bland do gooders from what I saw.
Brotherhood? Couldn't tell you much beyond that BoS hates anyone else having advanced tech?
Railroad? Well at least they have some altruistic intentions with trying to free "slaves", even if you have to ask yourself where does that line get drawn. Not that the game ever tries to answer it.

And not that any of it matters as each ending is roughly the same and you're just plopped back into the game world as if none of it ever really mattered.
 

Nesther

Member
This game's subtitle should have been "Fuck it, Murder Everyone."

I've only just started Molecular Level and I don't give a shit about spoilers at this point. I have no opinion on synths other than that almost everyone I've met has tried to kill me (Nick is awesome though, the companions mostly are). I hate the Railroad and Brotherhood. Glory and Dez are asshole and I just want to shoot them. Maxson ruined what made the East Coast Brotherhood good. I've actually made seperate saves and have gone on rampages wiping out both.

The Minutemen seem to actually care about people, plus the Castle is really cool. But I can't actually progress because Old Guns is glitched for me.

If I get the chance I will personally kill Maxson and Dez with my bare fists.

Yeah, Maxson especially is a horrible character.
 
I've really been enjoying the game, but I've stuck very close to the central narrative so far, and in so doing, joined the Railroad, which hasn't seemed unreasonable to me so far.

That said though, I've turned down just about every single side quest and other faction so far specifically because I've felt no one has given me a good motivation for doing ANYTHING, except for my own motivation of finding my child. That's a really unfortunate aspect of this game so far as it makes me feeling like I need to funnel my efforts and ignore the wider world. There's just to much fictional urgency there for me to care about and explore the rest of everything. I could head-canon it and pretend like I'm not pursuing my child, but that's no good. The central narrative, while interesting, just doesn't seem to jive with the rest of the game.
 

Apathy

Member
We don't even have to go so far to see the bad writing (or at least bad programming might be culprit). When you walk up to someone you've never met it even learned about your character refers to them by name. How in the hell did that hey by qa. Faction motivation and writing is just beyond terrible. This was the last time I have Bethesda a free pass, and I'm definitely voting with my wallet next time
 

AJ_Wings

Member
Yeah, I was shocked about how much worse it was even than Fallout 3. It's rather amazing, really.

Honestly, I disagree. It's kinda bad but not as miserably awful as Fallout 3's writing. Little Lamplight is in another dimension in terms of pure awfulness.
 

Fantastapotamus

Wrong about commas, wrong about everything
The railroad story really goes places. Stupid places.

Shaun
is such an aweful, stupid character I was shocked when I realised that it wasn't a joke, but something that's actually happening.

Well Mother, I freed you from the Vault, and then just wondered whether you will survive or not but didn't really care to be honest. We also thought it would make sense to let you, an untrained lawyer from another century, kill our badass assassin. Also I thought it would be fun to tease you with a little robot Shaun when you arrived here, that was funny. Oh, btw. no I won't really tell you what the Instute actually does. But I really love you, please kill everybody else in the wasteland and take my place in the institute, I'm dead now, bye *dies*
 

Etnos

Banned
BoS and Inst are straight up murderers.

So is the Railroad, willing to kill and die for synths, their motivation is never clear... I mean they are a highly ideological group in the wasteland

You would think Humans in the wasteland would have basic priorities to fulfil before thinking about saving some robots

No faction is believable, they are all unidimensional fanatics with no clear motive
 

Zomba13

Member
Part of the reason I stopped playing (outside of Xenoblade Chronicles X) was that I stumbled onto "spoilers" for how the ending plays out no matter what path you go down
NUKE EVERYONE ELSE!!!
and it just bummed me out. Like, why? I can understand that course of action for certain factions but for some of the others it doesn't make much sense to escalate to that level.

Granted, I've not got to the end of any factions questline or the end of the story but it just seems to force you to side with one faction over another when there could have been ways to go about it without having it devolve into "fuck everyone else, kill them all". Yeah, working together with other factions wouldn't work or make sense but there could have been other ways to solve the problems that don't involve blowing them up.

And on a smaller level, with the characters themselves. I've sent them all to Sanctuary and for me at least, it doesn't make sense for them all to get along. I mean, they don't interact with each other but still, I don't think a devout Brotherhood member would stay in the same settlement as a Super Mutant and Synth. Basically, "Muh Immersion!".
 
Excellent post, pretty much sums up my thoughts on the narrative in FO4. I enjoyed it on the whole, but the writing was jarring at times almost patronising in it's simplicity.

I think Bethesda's biggest failing was their inability to present us with a tangible choice we would realistically be able to take .. for example;

Being able to negotiate a truce between Faction X and Faction Y, or taking on everyone and being your own Faction. It felt very Mass Effect 3 like in that regard. Linear and very single minded writing.

The bolded really bothered me. Even if you had to destroy at least one faction, they should have let us at least have the other two join up. For example

The Institute and The Brotherhood could have easily joined up with a little convincing. The Brotherhood is all about preserving technology, so they could have made a deal where the Instititute shares technology and use their Synths to help rid the the wastes of Super Mutants and Ghouls. In return The Brotherhood would send recon teams all accross the East Coast to find more scientists for the Institite, they could also retrofit power armor to the Synths and use them as an extension of their Military.

All three could have easily reconciled their differences in certain ways. The game is still really fun, but I'm hoping DLC adds a bit more depth it.
 
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