Dude Abides
Banned
I don't see anyone arguing from a legal standpoint. People are playing what if from a factual standpoint.
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Family of Florida boy killed by Neighborhood Watch seeks arrest
- Thread starter Dram
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I don't see anyone arguing from a legal standpoint. People are playing what if from a factual standpoint.
Dreams-Visions
Member
I can't handle this thread.
Did you read what you quoted? Confronting the teen and physically stopping him are worlds apart legally.
Vermillion
Banned
You'll certainly have to read more of the thread, then.
Devolution
Member
Why did the man consider the kid to be suspicious? Why did he call the police? Why did he disobey dispatch? Why did he get out of the car?
And what was the kid doing during all this? Just walking home.
He's a lawyer who I'm sure has been reading. You're missing his point.
And what was the kid doing during all this? Just walking home.
He's a lawyer who I'm sure has been reading. You're missing his point.
But like, its totally feasible that poor George was merely acting in self-defense.
Too true. Must've been those skittles of mass destruction. Damn kid walking on neighborhood watch property.
I'm still waiting for someone to explain why this guy hasn't been arrested. He killed the kid, absolutely no one is disputing that.
Why is he not in custody while they investigate whether this was murder or self-defense?
Can you really shoot someone in the chest and walk around free while your motives are looked into?
Why is he not in custody while they investigate whether this was murder or self-defense?
Can you really shoot someone in the chest and walk around free while your motives are looked into?
Princess Carl
Member
I would disagree. Multiple posters have been questioning and evaluating the possible situations within the scope of the law and evidence. Seems like a legal perspective to me.
Vermillion
Banned
It was late at night, correct? It's a kid walking alone (maybe even fast-walking to get home). If it were a city, then picking that one kid out would be odd, but it could be suspicious.
He wanted to justify his actions, or maybe even feel like a hero. Or maybe just to confirm his suspicions.
He's brash, ignorant. Maybe he just wanted to be a hero. Maybe he thought he could wrap things up easily. Maybe he could have even pretended to be one of those renegade cops on TV - the boss gets mad at them, but dammit if they didn't do their job.
To do the above.
Dude Abides
Banned
No, I read it. Since Manos left I think I'm the only member of Law-GAF here, and it shows.
Vermillion
Banned
Well I was asking just a while back as to what the man could be charged with, and whether or not he legally did anything wrong, so I don't understand what he's saying.
Well, please, elucidate. I'm always willing to learn.
Princess Carl
Member
Well thanks! Appreciate you shitting up the posters who have been trying to evaluate the incident with any sense of objectivity. Great addition to the discussion!
Blackace
if you see me in a fight with a bear, don't help me fool, help the bear!
shed some light on it, instead of being a snob about it
Devolution
Member
Poor George, black kids thinking they got any right to walk through his fucking community.
Princess Carl
Member
Who said he was justified in approaching him? No one said that...
Blackace
if you see me in a fight with a bear, don't help me fool, help the bear!
but he was justified to kill him?
After the complete negligence and incompetence when responding to a suspicious character after which leaves a kid, a minor dead, for walking in the wrong neighbourhood after picking up Skittles & Arizona Ice Tea, a man is not detained until investigations are over, rather he's at the moment set free until investigations can deem him to have not acted in self defense is fucking sad.... it's beyond sad...
And this thread is disintegrated into arguing over whether he was legally justified in murdering this kid over his already confirmed baseless suspicions..
Fuck this thread.
And this thread is disintegrated into arguing over whether he was legally justified in murdering this kid over his already confirmed baseless suspicions..
Fuck this thread.
Dude Abides
Banned
I don't see any objectivity. KHarvey is just doing that devil's advocate lets wait thing he likes to do where we can't come to any tentative conclusions until all facts are known to 100% certainty. A couple people posted statutes without any cases interpreting them. Unfortunately researching Florida state cases requires Lexis or Westlaw, which are expensive and can't be done on my iPad. If people want to argue the facts that's fine, but none of us know enough about Florida law to be able to say whether anyone involved was acting in self defense.
Here's something quick and dirty.
http://writ.news.findlaw.com/sebok/20050502.html
This suggests that Zimmerman should at least be charged, and should have to prove his affirmative defense rather than the police just letting it go.
Princess Carl
Member
Sounds like numerous posters stating the facts given and saying that nothing else can really be said until the investigation is completed.
StartSomething
Neo Member
http://www.wftv.com/news/news/family-teen-fatally-shot-neighborhood-watch-leader/nLNq9/
It seems that at least some of the recording has become available.
It seems that at least some of the recording has become available.
http://www.scribd.com/doc/82986529/Sanford-PD-Flyer
http://www.scribd.com/doc/83265458/Sanford-PD-Meeting
http://www.scribd.com/doc/69888406/RTL-Newsletter-September-2011-FINAL (lists Zimmerman as person to contact for Neighborhood Watch)
http://www.scribd.com/doc/83265458/Sanford-PD-Meeting
http://www.scribd.com/doc/69888406/RTL-Newsletter-September-2011-FINAL (lists Zimmerman as person to contact for Neighborhood Watch)
mysocksarepink
Banned
Holy hell, thisx110000.
I live in a gated community in Jersey. I reside in one of the wealthiest counties in the country (has been in the top 10 in the past decade) and my neighborhood has a neighborhood watch
I can say without a doubt, the same thing would happen here. :///
Who's they? Oh that's right, the black people.
Devolution
Member
But he's such a great guy.
You keep harping on about physical contact and who first instigated it. Why? It does not matter. The very same laws that allow you to defend yourself with a gun also allow you to defend yourself with any other weapon at hand, including... your own hands! If someone threatens you, be that physically, verbally, or otherwise (body language even!), you have the right to remove that threat. The only time you must prove the severity of the threat is when you choose to use a gun and/or choose to kill someone. If you're actions could reasonably be perceived as any kind of threat you can, and often will, be punched in the face many times regardless of your intentions! If you're actions are the root cause of the incident you are at fault!
Example scenario wherein intention's are irrelevant to legal outcome:
I am in a movie theater and I smell something burning. I approach an employee and tell him this. He responds thusly, "These projectors are old and dirty. It's probably just some dust burning off the bulbs. If you'll just stay here, I can check on it, and then we'll take the appropriate actions based on my findings." After he walks away I decide it would be best if I alert the other patrons just in case. I walk into the nearest room, loudly say, "Attention, there may be a fire!" People react by hurriedly running toward any available exit. Some of them are trampled, causing injury and perhaps even death. As it turns out, it was just some dust burning off an old projector bulb.
Regardless of my intentions my failure to follow both standard accepted protocol and the advise of persons in a position of authority leaves me in a position of legal responsibility.
le sigh
Their latest newsletter CLEARLY mentions TEENS being a problem because they were hopping a wall and damaging it (causing the HOA members to pay for it).
Dude Abides
Banned
Yes, arguing the facts, not the law.
Here is more that suggests that stand your ground may be interpreted very broadly:
http://www.theblaze.com/stories/dou...-under-fl-stand-your-ground-self-defense-law/
A key question is whether stopping your car and approaching someone at night could be considered threatening imminent bodily harm, such that Martin would have been justified in standing his ground. Ironically the above case suggests it could be, but I'm not going to be able to find that specific fact pattern on google.
Black Republican
Member
Obviously, the victim was gonna grow up to be like him anyways:
Good thing George came prepared
Professor Beef
Banned
"Time to make an example out of this one."
Devolution
Member
Teens fucking up some wall, best arm myself!
I would wager the young man being black was the cause of him being followed and later confronted.
Dreams-Visions
Member
I read "they" as "the criminals.
Problem is in his zeal to confront someone who he believed was yet another criminal...and what about the boy led him to believe he was "just another criminal" for whom he needed to go Batman against.
his black skin and locks, no doubt.
Devolution
Member
Or what made him assume this teen was the one doing it? Oh right black kid, rich neighborhood. I sense a theme here.
Or maybe he saw him jump the wall? Who fucking knows.
Lets wait til we get some actual inforfuckingmation maybe?
http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news...illed-sanford-police-20120308,0,1380794.story
I'll post it again, since some of you don't seem to understand it:
Professor Beef
Banned
...if he was visiting his family, then he would know the code to get in. Why would he need to jump it!?
There is enough information to draw my conclusion. I do not think it is a coincidence this armed white man followed a teen then went against police advice not to engage and went ahead and engaged. Judge me how you will.
Really? You never jumped a fence as a kid? I lived in a gated community and jumped the wall ALL the damn time.
I'm glad you're still amongst the living.
Of course it matters. If the man initiated physical contact and wasn't justified in doing so he's a murderer. If the teen initiated unjustified physical contact and presented the threat of death or grievous bodily harm, the man acted in self defense.
Uh, no, you can't just go around punching people for making what you perceive to be threats. Well, you could I guess, but then you'd go to jail.
I don't think the possibility of it being deemed a threat is being argued, but rather if it must always constitute a threat.
You say to wait for more info and then proceed to speculate...
Dreams-Visions
Member
We should take up a defense fund.
All I was saying is that it doesn't ALWAYS have to be about race (even though I initially agreed with that logic from the little info in the OP).
Devolution
Member
And I'm sure if the victim was white the police would be so quick to give as much of a shit as they have thus far. But it's just conjecture on my behalf right? Not systemic dismissal of these kinds of cases.
Dude Abides
Banned
"Must always" isn't the issue. The issue is whether it reasonably was perceived as such under these particular circumstances.
Roger Danish
Member
No, what's being argued is what's more likely. I don't think anyone here is claiming that the fact that he left his car automatically proves beyond a reasonable doubt that he was not acting in self-defense. Thankfully, no one here is on the jury. All we can do for the sake of discussion is draw conclusions based on the limited facts available to us (otherwise, what's the fucking point of discussion?)--and those facts tend to point against a claim of self-defense.
I got an idea! Let's lock any and all threads involving a pending investigation/case until the defendant is ultimately convicted/acquitted!
Exactly. Others were arguing explicitly that the details and particular circumstances did not matter as it could not be anything but a threat.
If we don't speak on George's behalf, who will?
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