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[mollipen]

Only stepping into this thread for a moment to reply to this.

They NEVER denied.

The only thing they flipped was if she was post op or pre op.
Latest status is a ono joke that she is post op in the usa and pre op in japan.l

They absolutely flipped, from seeming to come from the position that she was canonically trans to saying fans could decide if she's trans or not.

Over the next 20 years, there's been some changes, and Capcom's official stance has and will continue to be that we don't have a stance technically. It's supposed to be mysterious; if people want to talk about it on forums or what not they're welcome to, but we're not going to give you a straight answer because, well, there isn't one. We deliberately want to make it a mysterious thing—that question of what's at the core of this character. At the end of the day, we don't have an actual canonical answer to that.

It's interesting, because it almost takes on a sort of Rorschach test. If you go into it with the pre-conceived notion that she's a woman, the way she talks, the way she moves, you'll see all of that as being very feminine. If you go in with the pre-conceived notion that she's not, her actions and mannerisms will seem the other way to you. So, it's very open-ended.

From my point of view, I'm very happy to have fans continue to discuss that, but once again we're not going to give an official answer. We're happy to leave that open and up to individual fans.

 

[Laiza]

It's not valuable to say it's a set of opinions or arguments (or to exaggerate those opinions into caricatures), as it really about the actions of a few. It mainly comes down to self-appointed gatekeepers who might feel like a thread's purpose is invalid and thus spend the rest of it thread-whining to the point of being its top posters and making statements like "hetero males should not be allowed to talk about this" or that sentiment simplified two word posts of "shut up". For years now, pretty much every thread even only somewhat related to female character designs has a chance of breaking down into a shared blog of the same five or so users, though "chance" might be underselling the frequency. Basically anyone who quotes a handful or more people just to tell them they are all wrong is a red-flag - turns the thread into the 502nd weekly/daily Crossing Eden and Morgan Stark r/AMA.

Don't know if adding a disclaimer to the beginning of threads, like "don't turn this thread into a soapbox and make it about you", would help or not, but it probably wouldn't hurt. In the end, people could just stop getting into derailing debates with gatekeepers and just focus on people who are not thread-whining or trying to dominate the thread.

Well, y'know, maybe making a thread that is inherently exclusionary to the half of us who don't respect mindless objectification and sexualization isn't a good idea to begin with?

If the premise is that flawed, you have to expect pushback. It's not like GAF is a stranger to thread backfires.

It happens all the time in Japanese games though. People complain about female designs in those games, but when is the male protagonist not a pretty boy? Hell FFXV is called "boy band game" for a reason. If you think Noctis and bros were not designed with female customer in mind you're delusional.

Same with 9S, Dante, Sephiroth and all the other pretty boys you can think of.

And there's a whole genre of videogame dedicated to female fanservice. How do you describe these games (you play as a girl in the middle of a bunch of attractive guys) other than fanservice? This one is published by Koel Tecmo by the way.

This is a serious false equivalency. Attractive male characters are very rarely ever portrayed in the same sort of denigrating fashion that a lot of female characters tend to be. How often do you get a game full of female characters straight-up casually sexually harassing the male MC? How often do you see games trying to "justify" skimpy male attire (note: skimpy male attire is already pretty rare on its own) with ludicrous roundabout explanations that no one with a functioning brain should be accepting? The difference in scale is insurmountable. It's downright mind-boggling that anyone could ever possibly argue that they are in any way equivalent.

 

[Aters]

If you don't understand why "erotic visual novels" are not held to the same kind of standard as other pieces of fiction.... uh.... well I guess I can't help you.

They are made by real human beings and they can be as good as any other game so I do hold them to the same standard. I mean, Kojima himself was the director of this:

The only difference is that this one does not have real sex scene.

This is a serious false equivalency. Attractive male characters are very rarely ever portrayed in the same sort of denigrating fashion that a lot of female characters tend to be. How often do you get a game full of female characters straight-up casually sexually harassing the male MC? How often do you see games trying to "justify" skimpy male attire (note: skimpy male attire is already pretty rare on its own) with ludicrous roundabout explanations that no one with a functioning brain should be accepting? The difference in scale is insurmountable. It's downright mind-boggling that anyone could ever possibly argue that they are in any way equivalent.

I never said they are equivalent. But female fanservice do exist, and they are quite normal. The post I quoted said "it never happens".

 

[Crossing Eden]

It's not valuable to say it's a set of opinions or arguments (or to exaggerate those opinions into caricatures), as it really about the actions of a few. It mainly comes down to self-appointed gatekeepers who might feel like a thread's purpose is invalid and thus spend the rest of it thread-whining to the point of being its top posters and making statements like "hetero males should not be allowed to talk about this" or that sentiment simplified two word posts of "shut up". For years now, pretty much every thread even only somewhat related to female character designs has a chance of breaking down into a shared blog of the same five or so users, though "chance" might be underselling the frequency. Basically anyone who quotes a handful or more people just to tell them they are all wrong is a red-flag - turns the thread into the 502nd weekly/daily Crossing Eden and Morgan Stark r/AMA.

Don't know if adding a disclaimer to the beginning of threads, like "don't turn this thread into a soapbox and make it about you", would help or not, but it probably wouldn't hurt. In the end, people could just stop getting into derailing debates with gatekeepers and just focus on people who are not thread-whining or trying to dominate the thread.

You're welcome to try refuting the points if you have any valid arguments to make about why throwing a gender under the bus is ok? Because you're basically whining about pushback against threads with sexist premises, "Oh, these users are actually refuting this inherently sexist and overused arguments, such a red flag!!" Lmfao.

You mean like how Bayonetta was created by a woman?

Who was following the instructions of men. Literally look at what I just said about higher ups.

 

[Morrigan Stark]

Because you're basically whining about pushback against threads with sexist premises, "oh, these users are actually refuting this inherently sexist and overused arguments, such a red flag!!" Lmfao.

It's funny that he singled us out, I see it as a badge of honour if I irritate sexist jerks tbh.

"Gatekeeping", lol

 

[-COOLIO-]

This doesn't look like fanservice. Does he make suggestive poses, is there any sexual objectification of him? Otherwise shirtless dudes fighting since Bruce Lee movies have been fanservice all this time instead of just a power fantasy.

in general, a man sticking his ass out doesn't titalate woman the same way. and a lot of women who go to male strip clubs don't even enjoy the full nudity aspect but perhaps the dancing.

there's a ton of overlap between the male power fantasy and what women find attractive about men, maybe that has to do with the fact that attractiveness is a big part of both the male and female power fantasy.

 

[Crossing Eden]

It's funny that he singled us out, I see it as a badge of honour if I irritate sexist jerks tbh.

"Gatekeeping", lol

in general, a man sticking his ass out doesn't titalate woman the same way. and a lot of women who go to male strip clubs don't even enjoy the full nudity aspect but perhaps the dancing.

there's a ton of overlap between the male power fantasy and what women find attractive about men, maybe that has to do with the fact that attractiveness is a big part of both the male and female power fantasy.

There's very few examples of Chris Evans in the gaming industry. But so many muscular male characters.

 

[Basketball]

It's not valuable to say it's a set of opinions or arguments (or to exaggerate those opinions into caricatures), as it really about the actions of a few. It mainly comes down to self-appointed gatekeepers who might feel like a thread's purpose is invalid and thus spend the rest of it thread-whining to the point of being its top posters and making statements like "hetero males should not be allowed to talk about this" or that sentiment simplified two word posts of "shut up". For years now, pretty much every thread even only somewhat related to female character designs has a chance of breaking down into a shared blog of the same five or so users, though "chance" might be underselling the frequency. Basically anyone who quotes a handful or more people just to tell them they are all wrong is a red-flag - turns the thread into the 502nd weekly/daily Crossing Eden and Morgan Stark r/AMA.

Don't know if adding a disclaimer to the beginning of threads, like "don't turn this thread into a soapbox and make it about you", would help or not, but it probably wouldn't hurt. In the end, people could just stop getting into derailing debates with gatekeepers and just focus on people who are not thread-whining or trying to dominate the thread.

Used to not be this way
but what evs people get tired/leave/banned ......

 

[Morrigan Stark]

Used to not be this way
but what evs people get tired/leave/banned ......

Poor sexist jerks, they could drool over waifus and make women feel unwelcome constantly, now they get criticized or even banned. ;_; They're truly the real victims here

 

[Star Orpheus]

Poor sexist jerks, they could drool over waifus and make women feel unwelcome constantly, now they get criticized or even banned. ;_; They're truly the real victims here

So just liking sexulization makes someone sexist?

 

[Ferr986]

It happens all the time in Japanese games though. People complain about female designs in those games, but when is the male protagonist not a pretty boy? Hell FFXV is called "boy band game" for a reason. If you think Noctis and bros were not designed with female customer in mind you're delusional.

Same with 9S, Dante, Sephiroth and all the other pretty boys you can think of.

And there's a whole genre of videogame dedicated to female fanservice. How do you describe these games (you play as a girl in the middle of a bunch of attractive guys) other than fanservice? This one is published by Koel Tecmo by the way.

That just looks like regular pretty boys, not the usual fanservice you see with females.

For example, a somewhat equivalent of the usual fanservice for males would be something like this

Of course, this may be more ridiculous than sexy even for females because we're not used to it the same way we used to see it on females.

 

[Anura]

Why do you think she is that bad ?

It's mostly because her only personality traits are "sexy" and "BDSM jokes".

If designers want to make sexy characters that's fine but please take note that "sex appeal" isn't a personality trait and you need more than that to make it a character.

 

[Morrigan Stark]

So just liking sexulization makes someone sexist?

Did I say that, or are you tongue-in-cheek-trying to prove my point for me? lol

 

[RockTurtle]

Well, y'know, maybe making a thread that is inherently exclusionary to the half of us who don't respect mindless objectification and sexualization isn't a good idea to begin with?

If the premise is that flawed, you have to expect pushback. It's not like GAF is a stranger to thread backfires.
This is a serious false equivalency. Attractive male characters are very rarely ever portrayed in the same sort of denigrating fashion that a lot of female characters tend to be. How often do you get a game full of female characters straight-up casually sexually harassing the male MC? How often do you see games trying to "justify" skimpy male attire (note: skimpy male attire is already pretty rare on its own) with ludicrous roundabout explanations that no one with a functioning brain should be accepting? The difference in scale is insurmountable. It's downright mind-boggling that anyone could ever possibly argue that they are in any way equivalent.

a thread about sexy fanservice is exclusionary?

 

[mbpm1]

It's not valuable to say it's a set of opinions or arguments (or to exaggerate those opinions into caricatures), as it really about the actions of a few. It mainly comes down to self-appointed gatekeepers who might feel like a thread's purpose is invalid and thus spend the rest of it thread-whining to the point of being its top posters and making statements like "hetero males should not be allowed to talk about this" or that sentiment simplified two word posts of "shut up". For years now, pretty much every thread even only somewhat related to female character designs has a chance of breaking down into a shared blog of the same five or so users, though "chance" might be underselling the frequency. Basically anyone who quotes a handful or more people just to tell them they are all wrong is a red-flag - turns the thread into the 502nd weekly/daily Crossing Eden and Morgan Stark r/AMA.

Don't know if adding a disclaimer to the beginning of threads, like "don't turn this thread into a soapbox and make it about you", would help or not, but it probably wouldn't hurt. In the end, people could just stop getting into derailing debates with gatekeepers and just focus on people who are not thread-whining or trying to dominate the thread.

RIPoste

 

[sensui-tomo]

So just liking sexulization makes someone sexist?

Big difference between sexualization and objectification. Knowing the difference is key.

 

[Basketball]

So just liking sexulization makes someone sexist?

Good question
In regards to objectification/sexualization


No it does not. What you like in a video game does not make you a sexist.

 

[Laiza]

So just liking sexulization makes someone sexist?

Defending it while downplaying or minimizing the complaints of those of us who are directly affected by this shit certainly does, if nothing else.

I don't see the point of posting "I like this shit" with no other contributions while ignoring all the reasoning we provide for why simply liking it doesn't justify its near-universal ubiquity.

a thread about sexy fanservice is exclusionary?

Serious question? "Fanservice" when used in this context is almost exclusively used to refer to heterosexual male fanservice, so yes, it's inherently exclusionary.

 

[Mael]

That we even reduce fanservice to sexual objectification is already so fucking sexist it's not even funny.
There's literally a whole range of fanservice done in video games that you can see in plenty of projects but nope!
Let's only refer to tits and ass because it's the only things that matter at the end of the day.
So instead we're left with trying to justify leering objectification because on top of having all the T&A that a playboy subscription could offer you have to insult our collective intelligence to try to pass off juvenile titillation as something more noble.

 

[mbpm1]

That we even reduce fanservice to sexual objectification is already so fucking sexist it's not even funny.
There's literally a whole range of fanservice done in video games that you can see in plenty of projects but nope!
Let's only refer to tits and ass because it's the only things that matter at the end of the day.

This is a good point tbh

 

[Kent]

It pains me to see "fanservice" misconstrued as being primarily sexualized in nature. There's so much potential, given how much influences and inspirations cross over all the time throughout the games industry, for so much better fanservice to go around.

Probably basis for a separate thread at this point, but I'd like to see more things that are clearly call-outs to things fans will recognize. Generally they're classified as Easter Eggs, but as an example, Blizzard does a good job of this in Heroes of the Storm, where there are cross-over skins everywhere, and design highlights and shout-outs to various other games (both their own and otherwise).

Like a Nazeebo skin having a Troll (from World of Warcraft) shrunken head instead of the normal one in one skin. Or Lt. Morales having a skin colored similarly to Samus' Varia Suit. Or the Genji skin that makes him look like Joe Musashi (the classic white-and-red Shinobi).

 

[Onemic]

 

[aett]

How often do you see games trying to "justify" skimpy male attire (note: skimpy male attire is already pretty rare on its own) with ludicrous roundabout explanations that no one with a functioning brain should be accepting?

This seems to be a fairly recent trend, perhaps due to people starting to question awful and sexist character design, and it drives me crazy. The Tales of Berseria example mentioned earlier in this thread is a good example of eye-rolling justification, and it's not the first time a Tales game has pulled this. It reminds me of one of the worst reviews I've ever read (fortunately, the author didn't last much longer there):

Milla is actually a spirit who has taken human form. This isn't really a spoiler, as it's revealed rather early on, but it is relevant to any discussion of her as a character. Although at first glance she may appear to be dressed somewhat provocatively, it becomes very apparent as the story progresses that she deliberately chose to cultivate such an appearance to her own advantage -- she even admits at one point that she dressed in such a way in order to manipulate men. She notes at another juncture that the concept of "gender" holds no real relevance to her since, when she's not in her human form, she's a timeless, ageless, sexless "force" rather than a "person" as such; consequently, despite her appearance as a frighteningly skinny 20 year old with enormous hair and a tiny, tiny skirt, it never feels like she's overly sexualized.

Edit: The Vaan post above this is a joke, right? Compare the way he's presented in the game versus the way the camera is occasionally positioned to perfectly capture Fran's ass. She's beautiful, of course, but is also from an original race of sexy, scantily-clad bunny girls. And then there's awesome, tough, princess Ashe's booty shorts, and so on.

 

[Crossing Eden]

That we even reduce fanservice to sexual objectification is already so fucking sexist it's not even funny.
There's literally a whole range of fanservice done in video games that you can see in plenty of projects but nope!
Let's only refer to tits and ass because it's the only things that matter at the end of the day.
So instead we're left with trying to justify leering objectification because on top of having all the T&A that a playboy subscription could offer you have to insult our collective intelligence to try to pass off juvenile titillation as something more noble.

Preach!!! Thread could've been about other forms of fanservice, like legacy outfits:

Free DLC like all those free patches for Horizon Zero Dawn like the face paints and ability to take off headgear:

Or even how Neil Druckmann injects GAF easter eggs in the Uncharted games. But no, right off the bat it was about justifying T & A. ._. Fun....

 

[NastyBook]

It's crazy how popular "Hot Ryu" became. It must've sold like hotcakes.They even officially renamed the costume from "Battle Ryu" to "Hot Ryu" and then there's all the merchandise...

Is that a fucking TURTLE SHELL on his back?

 

[Chun-Li]

It's crazy how popular "Hot Ryu" became. It must've sold like hotcakes.They even officially renamed the costume from "Battle Ryu" to "Hot Ryu" and then there's all the merchandise...

Is that a fucking TURTLE SHELL on his back?

It's called being Hot!

 

[shoryukens]

This thread was an excuse to talk about Boa isn't it?

At least she sounds cool.

 

[LotusHD]

This thread was an excuse to talk about Boa isn't it?

At least she sounds cool.

She is cool! Dunno where they got the idea that she was the best female character though.

 

[Platy]

Preach!!! Thread could've been about other forms of fanservice, like legacy outfits:

Free DLC like all those free patches for Horizon Zero Dawn like the face paints and ability to take off headgear:

Or even how Neil Druckmann injects GAF easter eggs in the Uncharted games. But no, right off the bat it was about justifying T & A. ._. Fun....

Red in that pokemon game is THE most sexy form of fanservice

 

[Servbot24]

I would say this is maybe justified just because it represents actual things she at least had in metroid games.

"This is justified because it's from a video game"

...does this not apply to every video game character?

 

[Pantz]

I don't see how being sexy for sexyness' sake isn't justifiable. Sexy women have feelings too

Cindy and Marie Rose are justifiable in my book.

 

[Platy]

They absolutely flipped, from seeming to come from the position that she was canonically trans to saying fans could decide if she's trans or not.

They never outright said she was trans. They made lots of jokes, references and all but we never had an official statement from capcom that she was trans because they are weak idiots that don't want the "controversy" of endorsing a LGBT character.

So it was "she might be" to "she might be"

Also, that sentence you quoted is insanely transphobic

"This is justified because it's from a video game"

...does this not apply to every video game character?

No, "this is justified because it's from a video game from an older more sexist time"

 

[Weltall Zero]

Bringing down an entire warship of armed military men with just a wink and a smile sounds awful?

... I'd love to know what scenario went through your head that resulted in people answering that with "no".

 

[Sami+]

I would say this is maybe justified just because it represents actual things she at least had in metroid games.

God, I hate Space Barbie Samus so god damn much. Wtf happened to Strong Human Not Your Shitty Waifu Samus... 🙄

 

[RM8]

It happens all the time in Japanese games though. People complain about female designs in those games, but when is the male protagonist not a pretty boy? Hell FFXV is called "boy band game" for a reason. If you think Noctis and bros were not designed with female customer in mind you're delusional.

One thing is making an attractive character, another thing is making a porn-parody-level sexualized character. No one is opposing the former, this is a thread about the latter. The FFXV protagonists are not thong wearing strippers with bouncing bulges and whose private parts are attacked by the camera at any given chance.

Same with 9S, Dante, Sephiroth and all the other pretty boys you can think of.

Same as above. Though Western Dante in DmC actually showed nudity at the beginning of the game, and it wasn't mostly for the lulz.

And there's a whole genre of videogame dedicated to female fanservice. How do you describe these games (you play as a girl in the middle of a bunch of attractive guys) other than fanservice? This one is published by Koel Tecmo by the way.

That doesn't look one bit sexualized. And that's NOT mainstream gaming anyway, even if these dudes were wearing almost nothing and those games featured them in very sexual contexts (he breathes through his v-shaped lower abs!), one tiny sub genre of NOVELS that is niche even in the only country it has a significant presence doesn't change the fact that females in games are seemingly designed to be sexually appealing above everything else.

 

[Morrigan Stark]

One thing is making an attractive character, another thing is making a porn-parody-level sexualized character. No one is opposing the former, this is a thread about the latter. The FFXV protagonists are not thong wearing strippers with bouncing bulges and whose private parts are attacked by the camera at any given chance.

Same as above. Though Western Dante in DmC actually showed nudity at the beginning of the game, and it wasn't mostly for the lulz.

That doesn't look one bit sexualized. And that's NOT mainstream gaming anyway, even if these dudes were wearing almost nothing and those games featured them in very sexual contexts (he breathes through his v-shaped lower abs!), one tiny sub genre of NOVELS that is niche even in the only country it has a significant presence doesn't change the fact that females in games are seemingly designed to be sexually appealing above everything else.

Gotta love the false equivalences.

"Those dudes are considered attractive" -- because no one said female characters couldn't be attractive, it's sexualization that is being discussed

"I found these bishonen in this niche VN" -- when what is being discussed is the fact that sexualizing female characters is common in mainstream games, not super-niche ones

Sigh, it never ends.

 

[Sparrowhawk]

Anything Mei.

 

[Basketball]

List

10 mainstream female characters in AAA games from 2017

that are sexualized, objectified

 

[RM8]

Gotta love the false equivalences.

"Those dudes are considered attractive" -- because no one said female characters couldn't be attractive, it's sexualization that is being discussed

"I found these bishonen in this niche VN" -- when what is being discussed is the fact that sexualizing female characters is common in mainstream games, not super-niche ones

Sigh, it never ends.

Right? "non-ugly male" equals "jiggly naked breast creature that exists to be fapped to" in gaming.

 

[Mephala]

I think Gravity Rush 2 is ok. Kat is extremely likeable but 90% of the world seems to look down on her so you tend to take her side and forgive her odd things, well at least I do.

Her regular design is interesting and somewhat iconic in a super hero-y way.

Then her unlockable clothes are these.

She got a 2B costume

I also really like Shanoa. As far as fanservice goes I don't think its too bad. Shame her personality is virtually none.

 

[watershed]

I didn't realize fan service meant nudity and cleavage. I was thinking more like dlc costumes in BOTW that are throwbacks to costumes in previous games or Hyrule Warriors which is like Zelda fanservice, the game.

 

[Danjin44]

She got a 2B costume

I love this art!!!
I will be taking that as my new avatar.

 

[13ruce]

I think Gravity Rush 2 is ok. Kat is extremely likeable but 90% of the world seems to look down on her so you tend to take her side and forgive her odd things, well at least I do.

Her regular design is interesting and somewhat iconic in a super hero-y way.


Then her unlockable clothes are these.


She got a 2B costume


I also really like Shanoa. As far as fanservice goes I don't think its too bad. Shame her personality is virtually none.

Kat is so gooooood and cute (that A2 costume is super cool) if i would get any more videogame tattoo's it would be her but i already have a decent amount of em soon so i quit at that point cuz i want to keep it neat and not overkill if i did not care i would get Samus, Zelda, A2 and 2B, Kat too. (currently have imp midna and wolf link and appointments for squid sisters, marina and human form midna and one to fix my generic tribal a whole bit cuz i got that one before i looked for very skilled tattoo artists and cheaped out) My original tattoo plan was generic pinup girls but i though ehm i don't wanna be the millionth guy with em, i would have never got em or decided to get em without finding a very good artist it's expensive but so worth it.

Sorry if i drifted of a bit still a bit excited about that ha

Shanoa i agree she is so good shame about her emotions but that story twist was pretty neat for a Castlevania game and imo Order of Ecclesia is my favorite in the Igavania series. It felt like a mix of iga + oldschool vania with the oldschool like stage structure and then in the end having a decent sized castle it was pretty epic. And the ending is pretty sad.

Such underrated game imo everyone who likes Metroidvania's or Castlevania should just play it, it's so good.

Damn hopefully Miriam from Bloodstained has a decent story like that too but it will be hard to top Shanoa's arc.

 

[GoldStarz]

I didn't realize fan service meant nudity and cleavage. I was thinking more like dlc costumes in BOTW that are throwbacks to costumes in previous games or Hyrule Warriors which is like Zelda fanservice, the game.

Both are fanservice, but traditionally fanservice means stuff like seeing people sexualized.

List

10 mainstream female characters in AAA games from 2017

that are sexualized, objectified

Very interesting how you chose a completely subjective category of games that contains a minority of the medium for a year that is only slightly half over.

 

[Junahu]

List

10 mainstream female characters in AAA games from 2017

that are sexualized, objectified

Is this intended to prove that women aren't sexualised...


...or that they just don't exist at all?

 

[Wulfram]

Serious question? "Fanservice" when used in this context is almost exclusively used to refer to heterosexual male fanservice, so yes, it's inherently exclusionary.

A thread isn't exclusionary just because its focused on stuff that some people don't enjoy. Most threads are targeted at fairly small segments of the gaming populace.

 

[LotusHD]

Very interesting how you chose a completely subjective category of games that contains a minority of the medium for a year that is only slightly half over.

His posts in these type of threads always... amuses me lol

 

[Boss Doggie]

I fucking love anthropomorphic characters since they get to have an excuse to wear skimpy clothing but something that complements them

shining series alone have...

FEDA alone have...

 

[Drillary Clinton]

Fran thread

 

[halfbeast]

Spoiler

(she's bi)