Pretty sure he wasn't banned for having a differing opinion. Looked more like a case of "being an idiot".
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Feminist Frequency released their 2015 Annual Report
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BudokaiMR2
Member
You are getting dangerously close to a straw man argument here.
I have never once said it is not considered at all. From my very first post in this thread:
I just feel like in order to actually make that sort of comparison, she needed to think a little more about how the male form is sexualized. Maybe there is some study out there that does prove that the male butt is just as important to the female gaze as the female butt is to the male gaze.
Again, I am not an expert on gender studies but her video also doesn't convince me that she is either.
Did a little digging before my next conference call...
I also have an Edge magazine interview buried somewhere where one of the designers speaks quite cheerfully about the obvious benefits of changing the original male design to Lara, and I paraphase, "we'd much rather watch a woman's bum running about for several hours".
You could always listen to some tracks from the amazing Tomb Raider albums, like:
GETTING NAKED or
FEEL MYSELF.
uh
BudokaiMR2
Member
As I said earlier, I feel like her points are much more valid when she talks about marketing.
Not arguing that point at all.
I see that, but I also think she is oversimplifying things in this case. There are specific gameplay reasons why a game with platforming would have a camera centered on the character while a modern day TPS game with a focus on cover-based shooting. And it's not because they are trying to hide butts from the player when its a male character.
LOL, are you actually trying to attack my game cred? You aren't going to get very far there. Work in the game industry and am actually working as a producer on one of the most prominent games featuring a lead female character.
You missed my point completely. Her point is that there is more of an emphasis on the female butt compared to the male butt. My point (well actually more of a question) is are those actually equivalent? Everything from fashion to every type of media in the world leads me to believe that is not the case. Again, I may be wrong here but I don't think it is a controversial opinion to say that in general the male gaze and female gaze focus on different parts of the anatomy.
Massive Duck. C.M.
Banned
When shit is documented, it's documented
BudokaiMR2
Member
I feel like people are missing the point of her video in a weird case of confirmation bias.
Anyone arguing that Lara was not sexualized to sell more copies in an idiot. That's not what the video is even talking about. That has been established.
If you think I am arguing that, then either you are not really looking at the points I am bringing up or I am failing to get them across.
The point of the video is right in the title. 'Strategic Butt Coverings'. She is arguing that in the case of males they cover their butts up in order to avoid sexualizing the male character.
I just feel like this is where it goes off the rails. The male form is almost never sexualized based on the buttocks. Is there really a consensus that broad shoulders and large arms are not one of the most common ways to sexualize a male?
Would love to some sort of study about what the female gaze focuses on, if anyone has any links.
Anyone arguing that Lara was not sexualized to sell more copies in an idiot. That's not what the video is even talking about. That has been established.
If you think I am arguing that, then either you are not really looking at the points I am bringing up or I am failing to get them across.
The point of the video is right in the title. 'Strategic Butt Coverings'. She is arguing that in the case of males they cover their butts up in order to avoid sexualizing the male character.
I just feel like this is where it goes off the rails. The male form is almost never sexualized based on the buttocks. Is there really a consensus that broad shoulders and large arms are not one of the most common ways to sexualize a male?
Would love to some sort of study about what the female gaze focuses on, if anyone has any links.
old
Member
FF is a 501(c)3 non profit. They also do yearly Form 990's. You can find FF's 2014 990 here:
http://990s.foundationcenter.org/990_pdf_archive/463/463408143/463408143_201412_990.pdf?_ga=1.59417444.852503102.1447601114
Actually, the male posterior is very much front and center when it comes to the female gaze. Like, this is a known thing among anyone who's had the most rudimentary discussions on male attractiveness with heterosexual women.
I can support this with numerous personal anecdotes related to my own champion behind, but that's neither here nor there. What this does mean is that Anita's comparison of the male and female posteriors - presentation, numbers, general treatment overall - in gaming is a worthy discussion and a position worth investigating.
A Link to the Past
Banned
I may be misremembering, but wasn't one of the factors for why Lara is a girl that it was more interesting to watch the character from behind?
You are 100% wrong on this.
They're part and parcel, absolutely. This isn't binary.
Does nobody even read my posts? /grumble
BudokaiMR2
Member
Thanks for the links! That definitely does change my perspective on some parts of the video.
Is the fact that it is usually not focused on in marketing and such just because the male producer etc. are as clueless about these opinions as I was? Thinking to stuff like the recent Arrow 'manservice' posters and such which are all front facing.
From the last thread about the video itself, I was lead to the Neogaf thread about male sexualization (http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1137134), and although I never had the time to read the entire thing it did feel like there were very few examples with butts front and center. Might just be a result of not enough media focusing on it though.
Man I always thought I had a nice bubble butt, but I have almost always been complimented on my shoulders/height. Well except here in Japan where it's about how my 'face is small'.
Now I'm sad.
A Link to the Past
Banned
Apparently not, haha! But yeah, I'm pretty certain that I read the same interview as you.
Cow Mengde
Banned
I've got a looooot of Nightwing pictures I can show you that suggest otherwise.
BudokaiMR2
Member
Yeah, I noticed he was one of the examples in the thread I linked. Never noticed it myself in the comics but it made a lot of sense.
I never meant to frame this as a binary thing and tried to add the caveat that it depends on the person. I mean I know guys who don't like girls' butts. I think they are out of their mind but there it is.
That quote is more about how in most media it really is not focused on that much. Should probably have written "The male form is almost never sexualized based on the buttocks in popular media" but alas...
Starting to think that is just because even when Hollywood or other media try to do manservice they are as out of touch as I am when it comes to male sexuality and female gaze.
I guess that is why I disliked her last video so much. I should be the target of these videos. I am a video game producer and want more good critiques about stuff like this, but I didn't come away with anything concrete from her video.
I learned more from Bish's post than anything in the actual video.
And yeah, one of my biggest problems was the fact that she omitted Nightwing from her comparison. She compared Batman and Catwoman and completely ignored Nightwing which made very little sense to me.
Seems like a great example of a game showing off a slender but built male character in a tight fitting uniform.
I am of the mind that you are always going to do more good by highlighting good representations in modern media over dredging up sexist stuff from over 2 decades ago.
Some people of are extremely angry with someone with different options talks, and that's just pathetic. There is a different thorough of someone stating their opinions and cramming their opinions and ideologies into something because they want to talk about it. Her GTA V review is fine but I think a separate think piece where she goes into more detail would have been much more effective then talking about it at length in her review then still giving the game a 9.
A lot of the people saying that Anita doesn't get it because she doesn't understand game design enough actually don't seem to understand framing very well. There are sweet spots in the frame.
Notice how some third person games keep the camera tight enough that you are looking over their shoulder many times, rather than from a distance? This is partially to create a sense of intimacy with the character you are embodying, certainly, but this is also because it places the character's face at one of the sweet spots in the frame.
Part of what is referred to visually as "the Male Gaze" in terms of cinema is actually the deliberate placement of women's butts and breasts in these exact spots where our eyes are already naturally gravitating because of the geometry of the frame. What Anita was pointing out is that when women's butts are in that location, they go unobstructed. When men's butts are in that same location where the eye will be very likely to notice said butt, they are often obscured because it would be "distracting" to take note of a male butt. This is what she meant by emphasizing Lara being center in the frame. To suggest that there aren't other ways for the camera to move around a third person protagonist is pretty disingenuous. (Although, to be sure, the camera systems were not very evolved when the original game was first released.)
We are so used to seeing women in this way -- films frequently frame female characters with less head room so that their breasts land on a sweet spot, whereas men tend to have their eyes on one -- that it does not register as abnormal, but male butts on display at the natural focal point is just not as common. Not that developers are running around saying "got to hide these men's butts and only show the ladies." Just that when they show the ladies, they don't even notice that they're doing so, because it's almost standard. When they show the men, they notice, and it is distracting enough to be obscured, emphasis removed.
Notice how some third person games keep the camera tight enough that you are looking over their shoulder many times, rather than from a distance? This is partially to create a sense of intimacy with the character you are embodying, certainly, but this is also because it places the character's face at one of the sweet spots in the frame.
Part of what is referred to visually as "the Male Gaze" in terms of cinema is actually the deliberate placement of women's butts and breasts in these exact spots where our eyes are already naturally gravitating because of the geometry of the frame. What Anita was pointing out is that when women's butts are in that location, they go unobstructed. When men's butts are in that same location where the eye will be very likely to notice said butt, they are often obscured because it would be "distracting" to take note of a male butt. This is what she meant by emphasizing Lara being center in the frame. To suggest that there aren't other ways for the camera to move around a third person protagonist is pretty disingenuous. (Although, to be sure, the camera systems were not very evolved when the original game was first released.)
We are so used to seeing women in this way -- films frequently frame female characters with less head room so that their breasts land on a sweet spot, whereas men tend to have their eyes on one -- that it does not register as abnormal, but male butts on display at the natural focal point is just not as common. Not that developers are running around saying "got to hide these men's butts and only show the ladies." Just that when they show the ladies, they don't even notice that they're doing so, because it's almost standard. When they show the men, they notice, and it is distracting enough to be obscured, emphasis removed.
FF videos deconstruct game designs in order to highlight harmful gender representations. As a "game producer" the very least you should come away with is a list of what not to do. Then again, if you begin from a place where someone has to spell out for you that men's posteriors can also be sexualised...
BudokaiMR2
Member
I am just not sure what I should take away from this video. If I am working on a game that involves platforming and a female character, should I move the camera to an over the shoulder angle even if it makes the platforming awkward? Do I give her a flat butt so it is de-emphasized like the examples she gives with Drake and other characters?
Part of it might be that personally I don't see a female character having a sexy butt on display as a harmful gender representation, just like Nightwing isn't a harmful representation of a male character. I have usually liked how she deconstructs the tropes even if there is she is obviously being selective in her content. This time I just came away like "Huh?"
I just feel like if she is going to actually successfully deconstruct this particular trope she needs to also address the fact that genres are going to have different camera angles. I don't feel like comparing Gears of War and other TPS games to Tomb Raider leads me to any sort of conclusion.
I never meant to say that the a male buttocks cannot be sexualized. Any part of the human body can be sexualized. Armpits are sexual to some people. Some people think Nicki Minaj has the sexiest rear end on the planet. Some people think it looks gross.
However, these videos are there to analyze trends and unless I have just lived a closeted life most fashion and media does not tend to focus on the butt when it comes to male sexualization. I just google image searched 'chipendales' and 90% of the photos are straight on, focusing on their chest and arms.
I am not shy to admit that I have no idea about male sexualization. I am not attracted to men and the only thing I have to go on is other representations in the media. This is why I am here discussing this.
TheBryanJZX90
Member
Didn't you watch action movies in the 80s? The gratuitous male lead naked butt shot was everywhere. It was even parodied by Emilio Estevez in Loaded Weapon, I remember.
Radical Edward
Member
Yeah, i think people are forgetting the 80s. Man-butt everywhere in pretty much any movie genre
BudokaiMR2
Member
Good point regarding 80s action flicks. Was probably too young on most viewings to even remember those parts off the top of my head.
Conan also had a costume that really emphasized his thighs now that I think about it. And of course the famous Terminator shot comes to mind.
Conan also had a costume that really emphasized his thighs now that I think about it. And of course the famous Terminator shot comes to mind.
Earthpainting
Member
I'd say the video did its job then. They are starting a dialogue and people are learning from it. These videos have to be digestible and contain lots of examples for people to see and believe patterns. I don't mind too much if they don't dig into the subjects too deeply, or that sometimes not all examples work. Like you noted, our GAF threads are good companion pieces to these videos. We're a lot larger than the Feminist Frequency team, it's far easier to share sources on a forum than in a video, and the diligent work of the moderation team keeps a undeservedly volatile subject clean.
FF aims to be descriptive, not prescriptive. Their videos simply illustrate why particular design decisions do not work or how they are harmful. Asking "what should I do instead??" is beyond the scope.
The Chippendales are not a representation of what women find sexy. Rather they're indicative of what men think women find sexy.
BudokaiMR2
Member
Yeah, I agree wholeheartedly with the importance of starting a dialogue. This was just the first time where I felt like the video completely failed to prove a point to me, which is why I have been posting in both threads. Don't think I have ever posted in previous FemFreq threads because most points were already so obvious that the videos just reconfirmed my own opinions. I guess I was just even more clueless regarding male sexualization than even I realized in this case.
It is absolutely ridiculous how toxic these threads can become, with the whole 'if she has a point she should argue it in Youtube comments' bullshit that always crops up.
I guess I am just expecting too much then, however their mission statement which this thread is about does seem to contradict what you say. <shrug>
Also, some of their best videos are actually about positive portrayals of female characters IMO so they are definitely not just trying to show what 'not to do'.
However, I guess that does fit with this video at least.
That....sounds a bit far-fetched. If that were the case wouldn't they have been out of business years ago? Are their audiences not mostly female? Do women only go to laugh at how silly it is? I guess that could be part of the fun or spectacle.
BudokaiMR2
Member
crap double post: go home you're drunk etc.
Wut? I mean...
http://www.pe.com/pictures/2013__07__Chips-Crowd-620x411.jpg
Obviously doesn't mean that every woman find them sexy. But I don't think your statement really reflects the reality either.
If it's about windy hair graphics, why is her pony tail crazy glued into place while her cape is flapping wildly in what is an obvious rainstorm?
D
Deleted member 20920
Unconfirmed Member
That's due to using film theory and a similar lens to study games. I'm not entirely sure whether I agree with her treating the framing of a character during acrive playing versus in a cutscene (aka when a game becomes more like a film) but with a bit of refining I think it's a good reference point to examine the decisions made during the game design process.
I don't think she's saying that all game developers deliberately chose the camera to be of a certain angle to exploit the female form but one cannot deny that decisons could have and would have been subconsciously influenced by what we have been exposed to and sometimes these ideas and decisions can come from mysogistic places.
The Batman section was mostly a tongue in cheek dig. She wasn't entirely serious and I really would like her to bring more of her personality into the videos like she did there. She had to police her own tone becausea lot of people often don't get her and think she's always serious when she injects her own humour.
Considering how hard up the industry is for "cinematic" feels, I don't think film theory is a bad starting point.
Their mission statement is entirely consistent with the point I am trying to make to you. FF does not dictate terms to creators; they merely point out sexism in popular media. Through their analysis they give creators the tools and the vocabulary to identify sexist designs so they can avoid similar pitfalls -- or at the very least be explicitly aware of what they are saying with their designs (if the intent is to be purposefully sexist).
The Chippendales are popular but not for the same reasons female strippers are popular with men. Women attend Chippendales shows principally because they're over-the-top stage shows; i.e. for comedy, not for eroticism. Just look at these men: tall, tanned, bulging biceps, washboard abs, oiled bodies. If they were striking poses, you could mistake them for bodybuilders. Their physiques represent a male ideal, not a female one. The intended response these men seek to elicit is not sexual fantasy and desire but shock, outrage and embarassment. Their entire routine is a farce: ripping off their shirts and pants, crotch thrusting etc. They're certainly being objectified but it's theatre. Granted, sexy theatre but definitely not the same kind of lurid sexual fantasy that female strippers sell to men.
Here's a couple of articles from some years back when the Chippendales toured the UK; perhaps you will find them illuminating: linky 1 and linky 2. Some choice excerpts:
D
Deleted member 20920
Unconfirmed Member
I'll have to disagree. If anything I want her to be more academic. What she's doing is prettt much the first few lessons of Feminisn 101. Pretty low level.
Yup.
People arguing that the camera zooming the fuck in on her ass whenever she mantled a ledge wasn't intentional is being hilariously disingenuous.
Like, really people?
Ivan Amiibo
Banned
That's for the best though--the vids are more for people who haven't thought about this stuff before, than 4th year soc majors or w/e. Before FF was around these discussions were pretty messy and it was tough to find a base from which to discuss any kind of marginalizing portrayal in games. Gotta walk before you can run and all that.
There's nothing sexual about Nightwing's ass.
It's flat as a plank!
When is the last time you saw Batman in a game acting like and wearing chippendale attire?
Interesting read. I really wonder about Gard's comments, though, because he would go onto make Galleon, with an equally overly-exaggerated female character.
Well Bish pretty much single handedly won the thread.
That's a smackdown I haven't seen since a long time.
Batman & Robin?
That's a smackdown I haven't seen since a long time.
When is the last time you saw Batman in a game acting like and wearing chippendale attire?
Batman & Robin?
Well Bish pretty much single handedly won the thread.
That's a smackdown I haven't seen since a long time.
Batman & Robin?
Bat nipples!
Yes but only for Robin!
It's funny because Batman&Robin is pretty much a good example of sexualisation of its male characters while being rather tame for the female characters.
It's the only "good" thing I can find on this whole affair though.
e: then again it depends of where you lookfor batnipples
Even Freeze got nipples!
Ivy is really tame, like batgirl it's a rather safe if uncomfortable costume.
Unfriendly TimeTraveler
Member
Can someone explain this to me a bit better, cause I don't want to get hasty here or anything. Just during the indiegogo campaign labzero was up front about all the cost and had to constantly explain themselves on why this cost x amount.
To me the two seem completely different so why compare the two in the first place.
Edit: not trying to say ff is being shady just I want to know why the comparison.
Yes but only for Robin!
It's funny because Batman&Robin is pretty much a good example of sexualisation of its male characters while being rather tame for the female characters.
It's the only "good" thing I can find on this whole affair though.
e: then again it depends of where you lookfor batnipples
Even Freeze got nipples!
Ivy is really tame, like batgirl it's a rather safe if uncomfortable costume.
Ivy's costume there compared to what she wears in the Arkham games is amazing
TheBryanJZX90
Member
The comparison is that it doesn't matter how upfront or how much detail you go into costs, it will never be good enough for internet armchair CEOs who have no idea what they are talking about. Specifically with Skullgirls, there was a huge shitstorm of a thread here AFTER they gave out some cost breakdowns, just a bunch of gaffers talking out of their asses about how much money was being wasted.
*Check on google*
WTF is this shit?
Good job! There's actually something Schumacher did better!
I didn't think I'd ever say this.
Unfriendly TimeTraveler
Member
Ah alright thanks because I couldn't figure it out, didn't think people would sill question the cost of the indiegogo when they did give out all the numbers, funny it was still going on with the latest crowdfunding campaign.
But idk could see a problem on ff part if they were showing pictures of them buying new cars and other fancy stuff that might raise some questions but their not so just let them be until they actually do something that really should be questioned. Which right now is nothing but how you feel on their content.