Excuse me for following the logic of the poster in question. He or she believed in more important issues so I highlighted one that he or she was very close to and probably could do something about.
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Feminist Frequency: Talking about harassment generates more harassment
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Excuse me for following the logic of the poster in question. He or she believed in more important issues so I highlighted one that he or she was very close to and probably could do something about.
Obviously I can't claim to have the perfect answer for this but my opinion is that it starts with the natural inclination to make inseparable moral associations with flawed media and the people who enjoy it.
I suppose that's fair enough.
Has there been any recent studies on pay equality i could read?
Hero_of_the_Day
Member
Yes, they are. It's bad enough that you could almost make a multi-part video series about it.
razoftblend
Member
The mechanics in your example is basically violence. Slaughtering black people is is the setting, no different from Leon killing Spanish people in RE4 or a black guy killing other races in GTA. Even today we are getting more and more games where you can create your own character, and if to get to point B from point A means killing others, your character will have to kill other people regardless of race.
Quite a few in here have mentioned sexism and racism, but do they even know what it is? I am friends with men and women from a lot of different races. They're good people who have been harrassed in some form but get along with others because they do not get triggered by everything someone says/does. It is the people constantly telling you about sexism/racism who cannot even hold a decent conversation with; they're triggered by anything people may say/do even if no hard is intended.
DICKS AHOY
Banned
Just to keep things (sorta) on topic, I'm friends with a few Gators but I don't think I could stay friends with anyone I felt was genuinely harassing people long enough to really empathize with them before being creeped out and/or pissed off. At that point I think you're probably going to be playing 'therapist' too much and I'm not sure how healthy that is for either party. Even with the former we've just reached a point where it's an issue we don't remotely see eye to eye on and talk about everything but because the friendship was more important than online drama.
I know you're talking about getting to the crux of the reason why people get this way before it manifests, but I'm not really sure how you can do that in the first place. One person may just be a genuinely bad person who knows they can get away with it without any real-life consequences, the other may need an outlet after some sort of abuse and the other may just be convinced what they're doing is 'right'. It doesn't even come down to the politics behind it sometimes; on Tumblr recently there was a similarly stupid mini-movement against an artist because they were doing fan art of a cartoon show 'the wrong way'. It just feels like harassment is too big and convoluted an issue to try and get to the 'reason' why for every single individual guilty of it rather than trying to minimize the amount targets of it get.
? I don't see where your persecution complex is coming from here. But, imagine this, you're having a discussion with someone about how a famous woman had a ton of rape threats, and you suddenly say "Oh, that girl is so trashy. You know she wants to get rid of all action films?"(when this isn't even factually true), how would you expect the person on the other end of the conversation to react? I mean, seriously? Context is important.
I've read this so many times and I still don't understand how is she trying to change them, she just has an opinion and that's that, she criticizes games from an unconventional (to some people) point of view and gives her opinion, she's not forcing developers or publishers to follow her ideals.
As for the harassment she suffers, I don't think I could handle it, there are too many hateful people, with too much free time that take their hobby as an identity, and try to "defend it from outsiders" in disgusting and misguided ways.
They're not though. Of course these games exist, but the vast majority of games that get called out are niche. Look at the past few NDP threads and the top ten games. How many feature overtly sexualised women front and centre? MGSV is the only one I can think of in recent months, and that was around an entirely optional supporting character. Look at the high profile games on Steam, App Store, PSN, and you see the same. Or look at Nintendo, and be hard pressed to find any examples.
You claim sexualised games are the "default standard", but reality doesn't agree.
Using a handful or games to tar and entire industry was moronic during the school shooter + Doom years, Jack Thompson vs GTA, and again now when you're trying to make the same claims.
It's one thing to highlight the games that do have overtly sexualised women in, but its intellectual dishonesty (in its literally meaning) to use these niche games to pretend they're a "default". It's fine if Bayo makes you uncomfortable, or you think the ultra-niche JRPG Vita games look like paedophile fodder. But what does that have to do the the majority of games that people play. CoDs, Halos, Destinys, FIFAs, Uncharteds etc.
MotionBlue
Member
Always. Governments release wage data yearly. Sociology and Women Studies have peer reviewed journals too. I'm not in that field, so I don't know which journal would be most relevant. "Wage gapes" are low hanging fruit for those, expect a lot of fluff. Don't be afraid to question what you read and seek other (reputable) sources.
The thing that I think people who are afraid of games "changing" often miss is that if you remove cheap elements like blatant fan service, the games will actually get better. Like if instead of smearing Quiet's tits and ass all over the screen in MGS5, KojiPro looked for other ways to make Quiet sexy, the game would have been a better game and instead of lashing out at critics in retaliation, he'd be getting praised for making another character that people fell in love with, like they did Boss and Sniper Wolf.
Morrigan Stark
Arrogant Smirk
Reaaaaally now
Not in the US, it's not a guaranteed right. If you mean the 12 weeks it's unpaid.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mater...rally_mandated_maternity_leave_by_country.gif
Not nearly to the same degree and you know it. Please.
I don't know about recent statistics the US but there is still a huge gender pay gap in Germany and since Germany belongs to the Western World I wouldn't be suprised if that's the exact same situation in the US. The German Institute for Economic Research published this research in 2014 dealing with the gender pay gap and gender tax gap and came to this conclusion:
The study is mostly in German but at the bottom you can see the abstract with the results in English.
While I'm sure that the wages in jobs involving patient or child care are high for women this only stresses the underlying sexism in this system. Higher wages for women in these sectors is for dragging them in there. They may profit from the higher wage there but it ultimatively leaves them powerless since every other jobs means sacrificing income so they have lesser choices. Furthermore, jobs involving patient or child care is something which was always expected from women. It is absolutely unbelievable that we still force them to stick to these old gender roles. Why shouldn't women be free to choose whatever they want to choose?
Kamina
Golden Boy
To be honest: I just don't get that anti feminism thing some people are pulling off.
How much of a lowlife does someone need to be to even take what she says as reason to send her hate messages and threat her with murder or rape?
And now to complete the picture of such haters being retarded they even take their cocks out and jizz on a photo of her? What?
Some guys appearently need serious psychological help.
How much of a lowlife does someone need to be to even take what she says as reason to send her hate messages and threat her with murder or rape?
And now to complete the picture of such haters being retarded they even take their cocks out and jizz on a photo of her? What?
Some guys appearently need serious psychological help.
razoftblend
Member
Her view on violent games is essentially the same as some polititians who still think violent video games corrupt children.
As for the harrassment, that's people with bad intentions. I think there was an incident where someone got shot at the release of the ps3 (or was it the ps4?). Do you think the shooter was representative of gamers? No, it was a bad person doing something bad and those kind of people deserve to be punished. Bad people do bad things; that doesn't mean people should be bundled together because of what some portion of the community do not know how to behave properly.
How did you come to that conclusion?
Morrigan Stark
Arrogant Smirk
Yeah that's a strange thing to say because she actually explicitly said otherwise.
It's not strange at all
razoftblend
Member
She complains that some games are too violent even though those games need that violence to even exist. Ex, war games have a war setting, hence the violence.
No, she doesn't. Unless you've seen something I haven't seen.
In fact, she just did a review for Assassin's Creed Syndication, an M-rated game with constant violence and assassinations, and didn't complain about the violence.
I'm starting to wonder where you get information on her, but even if that were true that would be the opposite of an extreme point of view considering that, as you said, it's politically popular on both sides of the aisle to say that. But, sure, she doesn't like violence in videogames and doesn't think having a ton of gore in every game is a good thing(She's not alone even among gamers, but again I don't share her opinion), that's not the same thing as wanting to ban such games. Furthermore, I don't disagree that people are shitty everywhere(Again, I've said this before), but when you have an entire movement, gamergate, that gets deep into smearing the reputation of, and sending shitty stuff like this to, certain individuals, you have a problem that extends beyond "people being shitty".
Let's say it is that way, for the sake of argument, how is she changing them in real life?, do you have any examples of it? If not, she's just voicing her opinion.
Decoy_Octopus
Banned
Without a source, isn't her entire premise based upon the assumption that interacting with video games (or media in general) can reinforce some form of learned behavior be it sexist or violent?
Violence in general is much more common in video games than female oriented violence.
foolishoptimist
Member
Yeah, no, she never said that.
You don't even try to understand the example. A racist game where you have to kill black people because the game suggests that they are lesser being wouldn't be okay just because people would (I hope that's not the case) buy it. It's not about some B to A non-sense.
MotionBlue
Member
That sucks. I'm not German(nor knowledgeable in Germanic politics), so I cannot(and will not) comment on that situation further.
Men are more likely to see career failure, or lost momentum if they take child leave of any kind. When compared to women. Feminism is about equality for both genders. I'm not going to pretend males have it as hard as women do, but somethings do actually skew in female favor.
For every big breasted, small waisted, scantily clad woman. I see a half naked muscled body builder stoically throwing cash around. Which one is objectification, and which one empowerment is entirely subjective.
Regardless, we're off topic. So yeah. Stop being assholes people. Don't harass people over stupid shit.
Edit:
Whoever shared this earlier in the thread, that was a damn interesting read. Thanks!
Her show is about criticizing reinforced stereotypes of sexism in video games. It's advocacy about the medium and she rarely focuses on violence more than sexism.
Her point seems more that games use violence for the sake of violence, and not always to the benefit of the story.
The amounts of violence was extreme in something like The Last of Us, but it helped establish the narrative of how brutal the world had become.
Not every game is so, but wishing that games could be less violent in general is hardly wanting violence removed from all games.
kingwingin
Member
she did tweet something about doom and how grotesque and how such extreme violence shouldn't be considered normal and it's a problem.
You're absolutely right that feminism is about equality for both genders and that's why feminism is also in favor of men not seeing a career failure when taking a child leave of any kind. This is often mentioned but I don't really get why. This is a cause of the sexist system itself. Fathers wanting to take a time out for their newborns face different problems, yes but that's not because of feminists. It's because of a system that thinks men should work and not look after children. This is not okay, but feminists don't have anything to do with it. Changing this system would solve these problems for both, men and women.
It's the same for your next point really.
Decoy_Octopus
Banned
Maybe I'm shifting the goalposts, but there wouldn't be any real cause for concern about this if there wasn't the assumption that this influenced real world behavior.
She believes that these stereotypes lead to some form of real-world effect.
She does reference instances of actual interactivity in games beyond purely narrative and visual elements that supposedly reinforce these stereotypes.
Would she not argue that interactive violence has some influence on violent behavior?
Would this not be a rational extension that interactive sexism has some influence on sexist behavior?
I realize I may be framing beliefs she may or may not have, but she does seem concerned about the relationship of masculinity and violence in general.
Unless you're somehow talking about Sonic the Hedgehog losing all his rings after getting hit, I'm not sure if you're even talking about video games here.
I couldn't give you proper answers to all those questions, I'm not her.
Just for the record. She has a similar criticism about the violence in Fallout 4. Which also upset people at the time for similar reasons.
I'm not really sure how you got that from her tweets. All I see is someone complaining about a random thing they don't like, looks like a typical gaf post if anything. Actually the Fallout one pretty much sums up why I can never take her seriously, she far to often seems completely devoid of context. Fallout is a game primarily about surviving in a harsh wasteland where everyone is out to kill you (or screw you over in some other way). It only makes sense that the majority of the crafting options would be things "about killing." It also completely ignores the fact that since it is a Fallout game basically everything is optional. In Fallout 3 I went into full speech stats and made my way through the entire game just talking my way out of situations. Only time I ever killed people was if they attacked me first. You can probably go through Fallout 4 without ever crafting anything (unless there is some sort of tutorial about crafting).
Decoy_Octopus
Banned
Then I guess I'm asking you.
Is it not generalizable?
Does virtual sexism create real world sexist behavior?
If virtual sexism can create real world sexist behavior, does virtual violence create real world violent behavior?
A Link to the Past
Banned
Ultimately though, it's a never-ending train of "why are you worried about [x]? What about [z]?" Nothing's ever going to not have a worse problem than the thing you're concerned with - people say the same thing about the wage gap.
Ultimately ultimately though, who cares? No one is forcing you to watch the videos. Nothing has really changed to a negative degree because of anything she's done. All that she's done is helped encourage certain designers to have a greater diversity of cast and employment and to help people think about whether what they say or do may be problematic. You are not affected by her videos in any way, shape, or form.
razoftblend
Member
Bioshock gives you the choice to either kill or save the girls depending on what you want to upgrade faster. That doesn't mean the game is discriminative; it's just a setting for that game. I think it becomes a problem when people become too sensitive to the the issue.
At a young age, people are able to distinguish right from wrong, and the setting you're describing wouldn't be able to dictate a person's behavior; otherwise we would have a much bigger issue right now if such game were to exist. But people in countries with strict laws only seem to think of these things as long as they're in their safe homes, but they don't don't know what is happening in places such as third world countries. Someone being called the "n" word in the US does not compare to someone getting their hands chopped off in Africa. Just saying.
Liu Kang Baking A Pie
Member
You're thinking of this from an old Jack Thompson/mom view instead of seeing how skewed the industry is toward men. Games are made by men for men, so women are represented poorly, so then women can't relate to gaming. It's an opportunity for the industry to grow into becoming ubiquitous entertainment for everyone just like any other form of entertainment.
You're not understanding his point. The game he's talking about does not exist, and he's not implying that it exists. Bioshock is not an analogue for a game like that.
This: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/05/05/kill-the-faggot-video-game_n_7214374.html is an analogue for a game like the poster is trying to use as an example.
And trying to say that "Oh people in Africa have it bad" can be applied to posting anything at all on a gaming forum. I mean, how dare you talk about game mechanics when people in Africa are getting their hands chopped off?
JeffG
Member
Yes blame the victim.
razoftblend
Member
I know the game does not exist. He even said it was an extreme example. The point is that we have the capacity to distinguish good from bad and separating reality from fiction. If you can't do that, then you as an individual may have a problem because the rest of gamers are not going around performing these fantasies outside of cosplay or performances.
Edit: as for Africa, my point is that the more vocal people are the ones criticizing racism in their countries with strcit laws while using examples from third world countries to back up their arguments. Doesn't make sense.
I'd love to reply to everyone's comments, but I have to get up early tomorrow (gotta make a living). Peace out and don't hate me so much
Liu Kang Baking A Pie
Member
Who are you talking to with this? I feel like you think Anita's criticism can be dumbed down to being about censorship due to the player being too dumb to know right from wrong, which is nothing close to what's actually going on.
Wow, a strawman. As I've stated before, you seem to have this persecution complex where you think all gamers are being called "evil" for liking violent video games, when that's not what's going on.
Seductivpancakes
Member
I know the game does not exist. He even said it was an extreme example. The point is that we have the capacity to distinguish good from bad and separating reality from fiction. If you can't do that, then you as an individual may have a problem because the rest of gamers are not going around performing these fantasies outside of cosplay or performances.
Edit: as for Africa, my point is that the more vocal people are the ones criticizing racism in their countries with strcit laws while using examples from third world countries to back up their arguments. Doesn't make sense.
I'd love to reply to everyone's comments, but I have to get up early tomorrow (gotta make a living). Peace out and don't hate me so much
All you've really done is put words in her mouth and misinterpret what she critiques.
And some how you think her critiques is a sign of her trying to change gaming forever for everyone, and because you think that, you've labeled her as a extremist.
Decoy_Octopus
Banned
That doesn't really address the issue though.
The general ideological view is the same, that video games create some negative real world behavior and that things should change according 'their' direction in order to address that.
If that claim cannot be backed up, and it hasn't, there is no reason to address their concerns.
It is from my perspective the same ideological argument made by Jack Thompson/Religious Activists of the 90s, one which many people would openly disagree.
To your point, the lack of interested women in video games, is not inherently a bad thing, as horrific as that sounds.
There are any number of interests and hobbies or subsections of interests and hobbies in the world which have significant disparity in interest between sexes.
Men tend to like watching professional and collegiate sports more often than women.
Women clearly tend to have more interest in fashion and clothing than men on average.
I've yet to see anybody make any reasonable argument that this is a bad thing.
If the minority sex wishes to participate they're perfectly welcome to.
If they want representation they receive it by participating in the medium, creating their own content, or contributing to existing projects, not by calling the majority sex prejudiced.
If men play more video games, it's entirely reasonable that more video games be marketed to their tastes.
It's not as though there's a complete lack of female representation or that women aren't allowed to participate in male oriented content.
In fact, a significant part of video games, is escaping the constrains of your real-world identity such that it wouldn't really matter what sex you were.
Liu Kang Baking A Pie
Member
Your solutions ignore all of the discrimination and harassment within the industry, which is a huge part of what she talks about and is what this thread is about. This is what happens when a woman enters gaming and tries to have a voice in it.
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
Its late and I don't have the energy to go through and address every point you made (up to and including the idea that media effects people, the jury is not in at all on "it doesn't effect people at all", it just doesn't establish a nice linear correlation between "violent media = violent people") but I mean...we are literally discussing the harassment that women face in the industry. Women are absolutely not "perfectly welcome" to participate, that's the entire damn point. That's why there's a conversation around sexism and misogyny in the industry and in the fan culture around it and why it pushes women away from wanting to work in games!
1. Not every game has these choices
2. Some things can be fiction but still support/ deal with real life problems or in this case preserve them
3. not everybody is capable of seeing complex problems surrounding some of the portrayal of women
4. Obviously someone creates these games. They are responsible for their content and when they choose to go down the road of sexism then it's their fault.
5. How is any of this supposed to excuse making morally problematic games which harm others just because some people enjoy them?
6. It's not an simple distinction between fiction and real world. When women always get portrayed as obediant, as extremely emotional and whatever this normalises it. When all the media describe the ideal women as this and that it becomes normal for us that an ideal women should be like that.
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