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Feminist Frequency: Talking about harassment generates more harassment
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Decoy_Octopus
Banned
This thread is about the harassment of public female figures who made the claim that video games are extraordinarily sexist, which is of course inflammatory.
It is pretty darn close to insulting somebody/a community to call them prejudiced as an extension of the media they consume.
I'm not sure how somebody could make this claim and not expect some form of response, most of which is impassioned but civil discourse about her arguments.
I'm not sure this is really representative of average experience of those that participate in video games.
There are quite a lot of female gamers.
There are quite a lot of female developers.
I would imagine for most the only "harassment" they've experienced as a part of video games is natural hostility in the competitive environment.
A Link to the Past
Banned
Where exactly is there a demonstration that women are disinterested in games for reasons besides there being a high degree of hostility towards them? We've seen numerous tales of harassment told by women in journalism, development, and just women who play. Isn't it a more fair assumption that women get a lot of shit in the industry from all directions and find it to be too much of a bother to deal with it? It's kind of like how we're seeing a rapid expansion of female comic readers, while men are more and more moving from comics to video games. To me, that says that comics just weren't doing enough to attract female readers, not that they just think comics are shit.
Liu Kang Baking A Pie
Member
You could listen to women instead of speaking for them and denying facts.
Mobius and pet octopus
Member
In some circles this response "consider yourself educated." is a form of harassment. It was very arrogant for you to assume I am not aware of why the harassment is happening. I was just saying there is a point where the origin and what is happening now is attenuated enough that it is not really related.
I am not being dismissive. I am just clarifying for some who would jump to conclusions, similar to what you are doing anyway, that I am not siding against her.
It is really annoying that you tried to make that out to be more than something it was.
I am in fact very much in support of what she is doing and what she stands for, but the amount of vitriol and posts like yours makes it incredibly difficult discussing.
Decoy_Octopus
Banned
A Link to the Past
Banned
Seriously. You look up people who work in the game industry, and it's not going to be hard to find an example of one who spoke out about harassment (and not just competitive harassment :v).
Also, do you think that this situation happened because of harassment in the competitive scene?:
http://www.themarysue.com/women-banned-battlefield-3-lan/
And what the hell bro? Of course it's anecdotal, you literally can't have a discussion about people's personal experience with harassment without looking at anecdotes. The problem is that there are a whole bunch of anecdotes, from people in the industry, people who talk about what they hear from other developers, people who talk about what the industry is like with women, people who identify systemic harassment of women as a serious problem for women in the industry, and your response is to assume that it's not really that bad.
Also, do you think that this situation happened because of harassment in the competitive scene?:
http://www.themarysue.com/women-banned-battlefield-3-lan/
And what the hell bro? Of course it's anecdotal, you literally can't have a discussion about people's personal experience with harassment without looking at anecdotes. The problem is that there are a whole bunch of anecdotes, from people in the industry, people who talk about what they hear from other developers, people who talk about what the industry is like with women, people who identify systemic harassment of women as a serious problem for women in the industry, and your response is to assume that it's not really that bad.
D
Deleted member 126221
Unconfirmed Member
What are you even talking about?
EmCeeGramr
Member
I've never understood why so many Metal Gear adherents reject the idea that social and cultural context can influence and reinforce people's thoughts and beliefs while devoting themselves to a series that is mostly concerned with how true that idea is.
edit: Welp, wasn't me! I was actually going to go into why there's a difference between reinforcing cultural ideas and the idea of "causing" actions. A game doesn't "cause" violence, especially in the way that Thompson et al tried to imply, because their model bordered on, or outright was, some kind of electronic hypnosis that increased suggestibility and caused imitation of actions. The idea of games reinforcing or influencing attitudes, on the other hand, is in line with anything like art, propaganda, advertisement, politics, or religion. A claim in court that an advertisement forced you to buy the product would be absurd, but nobody would deny that advertisements work to make products more desirable and normal.
edit: Welp, wasn't me! I was actually going to go into why there's a difference between reinforcing cultural ideas and the idea of "causing" actions. A game doesn't "cause" violence, especially in the way that Thompson et al tried to imply, because their model bordered on, or outright was, some kind of electronic hypnosis that increased suggestibility and caused imitation of actions. The idea of games reinforcing or influencing attitudes, on the other hand, is in line with anything like art, propaganda, advertisement, politics, or religion. A claim in court that an advertisement forced you to buy the product would be absurd, but nobody would deny that advertisements work to make products more desirable and normal.
EatinOlives
Member
They ARE incredibly sexist. You can be a huge gaming nerd and still admit that the vast majority of games have sexist undertones.
She doesn't say this. She says explicitly, at the very beginning of each video, that you can be critical of the media you consume and enjoy.
Look at the review she made for AC Syndicate. In addition to talking about her viewpoints on how the game fares from a feminist's perspective, she also makes a fairly level-headed discussion of the game itself. She doesn't sound, look, or act like someone who was disgusted just playing a video game. She clearly is entertained by the medium.
There's nothing to say to this other than, you're simply ignorant about the rampant sexism that goes on not only for female characters in gaming, but also of female gamers (especially online), and female developers. Regarding the harassment of female gamers, you don't even have to be a female yourself to recognize this. Countless times I've been in public games with open mic chat and whenever a girl comes on it's banana time in the monkey cage.
I am actually not sure why the idea that a fictional work makes conscious arguments about the world as well as unconsciously encodes ideologies about the world, and that those arguments and ideologies affect the audience in certain ways (even if those ways resist strict quantification) should be controversial. It is considered to be trivially true in all other art forms. The difference between this idea, which is pretty much axiomatic for writing about cultural products, and the Jack Thompson argument is that Jack Thompson seemed to believe that there was a simple, predictable causal relationship between the content consumed and the behavioral effect on the audience, that the audience would simply mimic what was presented to them. Watching Brokeback Mountain is probably going to affect my attitudes towards gay men in certain ways. It is not going to make me gay.
Jawbreaker
Member
Which episode are you referring to?
Fantastapotamus
Wrong about commas, wrong about everything
Probably "Safe Space"?
Cow Mengde
Banned
Corronchilejano
Member
Thanks to whomever posted the videos on angry Jack. We should have a thread about those, I honestly think it would help a lot for introspection (and maybe reduce harrasment online).
If you complain, you don't play or develop any games so yeah it's not a welcome attitude.
If you instead develop games that points out problem of misogynists, I think it gives more impact rather than just "talking" about it. Better makes it extreme consequences of the world in the future if misogynists rule the world of games. That's may make people realize the problem just like the movie inconvenient truth does to climate change denier.
So we can have threads on who should and shouldn't be in games, complain about mechanics, make videos about micro transactions and drm, but inequality is off limits if you're not creating a game?
ShockingAlberto
Member
I'm a writer, not a game developer.
When I want to complain about games, I'll write about them.
I'm sorry, your post is not a welcome attitude and I have trouble understanding it. It would have a much bigger impact on me if you made it into a video game instead to make your point.
BlastProcessing
Member
Did you snipe at Roger Ebert for having opinions about film without making films himself? Hell, have you even created enough Media Critiques to cosmically qualify yourself to have opinions about Media Critique?
Media Criticism has a long and storied history. This half hearted attack on criticism was deflected by the freaking Ancient Greeks. Need to step up your game yo.
I make games and I find well thought criticism invaluable. Being able to make a thing and being able to systematically pick apart, analyze, and contextualize a thing are different skills. One of the themes at GDC last year was very much about growing by listening to critique.
You need to take a step back and ask yourself what are you fighting for and what are your motivations, because you certainly aren't fighting for games to improve.
Hey, I develop games, fuck you.
As gross as this way of harassment sounds, I honestly can't say I'm surprised.
I'm surprised the Anita opposers even wonder why they're not being taken seriously while resorting to such low acts just because all their other attempts of keeping the woman in line failed miserably.
huge edit:
Games influence people, just like an other form of media does, which you are right with assuming it's just like any other form of art. A lot of people lack the ability to distinguish between games not telling you "Go murder your family" straight up and games having an influence on you to a lower level. Most people assume it either does or doesn't, while the reality is that it does influence us, but to a lower level than the anti-violent video games media is trying to put it. After all, who can't say a video game made them curious about reenacting something a protagonist does (Mirror's Edge being a great example there), or simply doing something smaller like influencing a purchase decision.
What's interesting about this is is that this leads to the belief that since video games don't effectively tell us how to live our life or to go out murdering everyone, the opposing assumption is literally that it has no influence on us at all, but in reality it just does as much as a TV Show, art, or anything else, it shapes us in a form, sometimes big, sometimes small, and that makes it often seems to me like opposing the idea of video games being a form of media that can influence us is just a lame justification to dismiss any responsibility and criticism that could potentially come from being an influential medium.
I'm surprised the Anita opposers even wonder why they're not being taken seriously while resorting to such low acts just because all their other attempts of keeping the woman in line failed miserably.
huge edit:
Games influence people, just like an other form of media does, which you are right with assuming it's just like any other form of art. A lot of people lack the ability to distinguish between games not telling you "Go murder your family" straight up and games having an influence on you to a lower level. Most people assume it either does or doesn't, while the reality is that it does influence us, but to a lower level than the anti-violent video games media is trying to put it. After all, who can't say a video game made them curious about reenacting something a protagonist does (Mirror's Edge being a great example there), or simply doing something smaller like influencing a purchase decision.
What's interesting about this is is that this leads to the belief that since video games don't effectively tell us how to live our life or to go out murdering everyone, the opposing assumption is literally that it has no influence on us at all, but in reality it just does as much as a TV Show, art, or anything else, it shapes us in a form, sometimes big, sometimes small, and that makes it often seems to me like opposing the idea of video games being a form of media that can influence us is just a lame justification to dismiss any responsibility and criticism that could potentially come from being an influential medium.
The Complaint itself is alright in the case about mechanics, micro transactions, and DRM, because the people who make game can act about it and change the game.
But about harassment, they should talk to cops not to their peers or audience. And if that doesn't work then we can talk about the ineffective police but that doesn't have anything to do with games or gamers.
Changing from writing about games to harassment might not be that easy except probably at the quality of blog, but please keep trying.
contrary to what you think. talking about it DOES work. THe testament is that many devs have said they have taken what anita has said on board. me and feep (both devs) and probably many others regularly follow these kind of topics taking a lot of information on board.So saying that talking doesn't work is complete rubbish.
talking about harrasment is totaly fair game. getting the cops involved is reactionary when instead we want detterrance. we want to stop people from harassing others not just punish them when they do it.
Beyond the Valley of the Dolls was a cinematic masterpiece.
D
Deleted member 20920
Unconfirmed Member
You're skirting the issue. Why is talking about one thing ok but not the other?
And they've talk to cops many many times. They don't need you tell them what to do. As victims of harassment, they surely have the right to talk about it.
Obviously but i cannot make a story in game that is compelling enough so i just write, forgive my inability.
The problem with talking about sexual subject is both sides getting irrational and rather than rational, they are using emotion to view the subject. There are people wants to be knight in shining armor and there are also people that act like their spouse is cheating on them.
Deterrence work because there are example like Hiroshima and Nagasaki. It doesn't work by them self.
Yeah irrational on both sides. I'm not sure why you want to fuck me but no.
Well Im acting like neither. I'm not being someones "shining knight" and I'm not doing it for brownie points. I'm doing it because I want to see the medium that I work in get better. I think games will be better if we can get rid of this horrible mindset as a more diverse developer pool (and by extension playerbase) leads to more varied ideas and variation is good. It may lead to new gameplay design philosophies or algorithm techniques just because we made someone who was a bit of a different perspective on things feel welcome.
and please don't compare feeps frustrations of probably reading arguments like yours for the umpteenth time act as a shield to say "look both sides are bad" because a harsh sentence is nowhere equivalent to the doxing, death threats and harassment of family members that "the other side" has been levying. of course that doesn't make it fine but to compare them in the same ballpart is absolutely a false equivalence.
Neoriceisgood
Member
It's a particularly demeaning/objectifying way of harassing someone, really.
There's an extremely rapey "I'll treat you sexually despite knowing you hate it" subtext, combined with a general sense of putting a "woman in her place" (basically a thing for the harasser to get sexual satisfaction out of.)
It's honestly a more graphic cousin of rape threats in that way, basically forcing unwanted sexual acts and imagery upon any woman that "steps too far out of line" to remind her of "her place".
That's always been my interpretation of this particular type of harassment though.
Oh, it's not irrational. Your attempt to try and encourage people to silence, because you think talking about an issue is somehow ineffective or without merit, is pathetic. I've seen and heard about all I can take from people who are literally making me occasionally *embarrassed of my own chosen industry*, and I'm really kind of sick and tired of it.
Neoriceisgood
Member
You're surprised some people might get pissed off when you say inate stuff like;
Like ... are you seriously saying anyone who complains about this stuff doesn't play or develop games? That's ridiculous.
A Link to the Past
Banned
I think that he just has bad grammar and he meant to say "If you complain, don't play games, and don't develop them"
In which case, no she plays games, don't be asinine.
Could not be more wrong. My girlfriend used to do QA for games (I won't say the company or anything). And she's said how she got tired of the boys club atmoshpere around there and the constant "Oh but you're a girl, blah blah" comments that would come her way. Thankfully I'd say she had it easier than other experiences we hear about online.
I'm sure the men felt that way too when she said they were just boys. She was free to choose a different industry if she didn't feel welcome. But ultimately, who is she to care about problems that relate to her? There are oppressed Chinese African kids starving in the Middle East for Chrissakes!
Phoenix944
Member
People harassing others are just waiting for a reply, best way to deal with them is to ignore them. I understand this is not an easy task...
But it's easy to understand that each time you talk about them, they became more aggressive. It's just a bunch of attention whore after all.
But I have to say I am very surprised on how bad the harassment toward female gamer is when I read these topics on neogaf. I know a lot of women (both IRL and in gaming forums) who are not affected by this, maybe it's more virulent in the US.
But it's easy to understand that each time you talk about them, they became more aggressive. It's just a bunch of attention whore after all.
But I have to say I am very surprised on how bad the harassment toward female gamer is when I read these topics on neogaf. I know a lot of women (both IRL and in gaming forums) who are not affected by this, maybe it's more virulent in the US.
glassgannon
Banned
9_9
SkeptiMism
Member
Ignoring it doesn't help anyone. The harassment is so widespread, it just keeps happening. If we ever want to actually stop it, or at least reduce it heavily, we need to seriously start judging it and educate people better to not do it and be more aware of others doing it. As a practical example, a parent might become more aware of what his sweet teenager is actually doing online.
Besides that, talking about it actually can get the issue heard in the appropriate avenues, such as the UN. As one more point still, it can give strength and hope to those people who deal with it in silence, getting harassed heavily but not having the strength to talk about it.
Regarding your anecdote, are you sure? Have you actually talked to those women? Have you actually asked them if they face any harassment? Or is your assumption that they don't face any problems? Mind you, I don't mean to accuse you in any way, nor am I saying your anecdote is impossible (obviously, there are women who don't face harassment), but it's not uncommon at all that people don't actually realize that people close to them might be dealing with issues too. Harassment absolutely is very common in Europe too.
they weren't 'pushing' anything, not everyone has to be totally stoked on you, that's the reality of the world we live in, and the point of that amazing episode
this post was directly addressing the post above not the OP,
A Link to the Past
Banned
Considering South Park's tendency to push, I'm inclined - especially given your rather pointed defense of the episode - to believe that they may have done such an episode.
I was rather pointing out that they weren't pushing the idea victim blaming as suggested by the chap I was responding to. I don't think I need to defend anyone, rather I can just disagree, back up why I disagree and leave it at that, which is what I have done. South Park is 19 Seasons deep, if I felt the need to defend everyslight people perceived, we will be here till judgement and the sounding of the trumpets
Totally stoked on you? Urban Dictionary didn't help me out here. Can you translate?
Roni
Member
I worry the future isn't gonna look all that great in quarterly spreadsheets and will be undone if the market changes without its audience.
Indeed.
I do think more men would take part and listen if the valid male concerns were taken more seriously though. As of present a lot of what I see regarding feminism is focused entirely on the issues facing women. This is of course understandable, however I'm personally of the belief that we should instead be focusing on how the patriarchal system makes us all disadvantaged.
but-but-but including more people means less sales!
are you seriously insinuating people won't buy games because they treat the other gender with a bit more respect? lol
What point are you trying to make, because I'm fucking flabbergasted right now.
Paracelsus
Member
If the game is based on fanservice, I think so, at which one could argue "if a game sells on boobs then that's bad and should never exist" but yeah.
Roni
Member
I'm insinuating the core audience might be alienated without a significant increase in the general audience. And because of that the market may see unexpected loss, or undue spending, and retract its changes.
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