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[royalan]

The specifics of this case are pretty fucked on several levels

But I object to the characterization as a "crisis in modern feminism". Feminism has always been in "crisis" depending on who you ask, usually by people who are trying to fight against it (not that I think the OP is). "Look at this reason feminism is doomed" is as old as, well, feminism itself, for obvious reasons

Completely agree.

The tone of a lot of responses to this situation, even if unintentional, is reminding me a lot of what happens whenever a black person gets arrested for gang activity, and how there seemingly has to be a follow-up conversation about "what's wrong with the culture." Instead of focusing on the individual actions of this one person, for someone reason they have to speak for everyone.

Every race, religion, gender, nationality and movement has its share of idiots. They only "taint the movement" if you choose to let them.

 

[HK-47]

Completely agree.

The tone of a lot of responses to this situation, even if unintentional, is reminding me a lot of what happens whenever a black person gets arrested for gang activity, and how there seemingly has to be a follow-up conversation about "what's wrong with the culture."

Every race, religion, gender, nationality and movement has its share of idiots. They only "taint the movement" if you choose to let them.

But I'm super concerned about the integrity of the movement due to this outlier case /s

 

[jtb]

Completely agree.

The tone of a lot of responses to this situation, even if unintentional, is reminding me a lot of what happens whenever a black person gets arrested for gang activity, and how there seemingly has to be a follow-up conversation about "what's wrong with the culture." Instead of focusing on the individual actions of this one person, for someone reason they have to speak for everyone.

Every race, religion, gender, nationality and movement has its share of idiots. They only "taint the movement" if you choose to let them.

Agreed completely.

 

[Sianos]

Because a some of us are taught to view each other as primarily competition (for men's attention and respect.) And we're taught to think of femininity as this monolithic thing, so in going against something like the narrow beauty standards, we automatically replace it with others that are really just as limiting.

This is the key facet behind my own interpretation of gender - more than just addressing how traditional gender roles are harmful, it needs to be recognized that the concept of a gender archetype itself is psychologically limiting. Gender isn't monolithic - in the real world boys aren't always violent girls aren't always passive, boys aren't always stoic girls aren't always empathetic - these incredibly binding categorizations of emotion and how people "should" act force entire halves of the population into repressing a large portion of their emotional spectrum.

 

[Platy]

The specifics of this case are pretty fucked on several levels

But I object to the characterization as a "crisis in modern feminism". Feminism has always been in "crisis" depending on who you ask, usually by people who are trying to fight against it (not that I think the OP is). "Look at this reason feminism is doomed" is as old as, well, feminism itself, for obvious reasons

Maybe that is why I like Nintendo so much xD

 

[excelsiorlef]

That's why I hate that Jez article. It's basically playing full course feminism is eating itself, instead of these people are idiots.

It's boring, not to mention it's clear the author loves the professor/author (she basically makes it clear as such in the comments) as she glosses over all the awful stuff that was in that essay and jumps straight to feminism is eating itself.

I mean come on that part about how survivor used to be reserved for the holocaust? She goes out of her way to trivialize the experiences of rape/incest/molestation victims everywhere who choose the term survivor by basically accusing them of comparing themselves to her Aunt who survived the Holocaust. It's pointless real pain olympics.

 

[The Technomancer]

Every race, religion, gender, nationality and movement has its share of idiots. They only "taint the movement" if you choose to let them.

I mean, if I'm honest here they can taint the movement when they achieve actual institutional power and/or do more harm than the rest of the movement does good. Hence why its hard for Republicans to disavow the actions of their elected representatives and GamerGate can't insist that "its actually about ethics"

If we had sound statistics showing that institutional action from widely supported feminists was causing more genuine censorship or something then I'd be there with everyone else raising concerns

 

[thefit]

The specifics of this case are pretty fucked on several levels

But I object to the characterization as a "crisis in modern feminism". Feminism has always been in "crisis" depending on who you ask, usually by people who are trying to fight against it (not that I think the OP is). "Look at this reason feminism is doomed" is as old as, well, feminism itself, for obvious reasons

Hey technomancer I've always wondered why are you such a feminist? I mean what drove you to it and to what seems its militant side?

 

[theJohann]

Even worse, anything regarding "choice feminism".

I have never heard of this, nor of TERFs. Could you please describe them for me?

 

[excelsiorlef]

Hey technomancer I've always wondered why are you such a feminist? I mean what drove you to it and to what seems its militant side?

Militant? Really?

That's not loaded or anything.

 

[CarpeDeezNutz]

I doubt you see something saying thin women aren't real, and more like "real women have curves" or somesuch. That's a valid statement in its intended context, which is that fashion and advertising and everything else paint an unrealistic expectation within and without, so it's more like they are saying "it's okay that we aren't models because that's not the real standard."

They are saying the image and expectation of the perfect supermodel who handles everything and eats half an apple a day isn't in line with reality. Obviously models are real people but they don't represent "real people".

Of course some loon can easily write "thin women aren't real women" but that outlier would be only useful as a spotlighting/straw man fallacy to assail the positive body image movement as a whole. Which is something that happens frequently on GAF even.

Hmm food for thought.

Because a some of us are taught to view each other as primarily competition (for men's attention and respect.) And we're taught to think of femininity as this monolithic thing, so in going against something like the narrow beauty standards, we automatically replace it with others that are really just as limiting.

Where did you grow up? It was the opposite where I am from (Texas).

 

[HK-47]

Hey technomancer I've always wondered why are you such a feminist? I mean what drove you to it and to what seems its militant side?

And thus the word militant, having been abused in theist/atheist debates for so long, finally died.

 

[excelsiorlef]

I have never heard of this, nor of TERFs. Could you please describe them for me?

TERF are Trans-exclusionary radical feminists, basically transphobic to the core and a few TERFS have been directly responsible for anti-trans laws and policies. Fortunately their power is dwindling every day and their little sect of hatred is becoming more and more insular and irrelevant

Choice feminism is I believe the thought that any choice by a woman is a feminist choice, so if a woman is a stay at home mom by choice that's a feminist act.

 

[Reishiki]

I have never heard of this, nor of TERFs. Could you please describe them for me?

TERF = Trans exclusionary radical feminist

They're not very nice, especially if you're trans

 

[Platy]

I have never heard of this, nor of TERFs. Could you please describe them for me?

Choice feminism is "it is always ok if it is the women's choice" which has most critics talk about what is a choice considering how insanely society molds you (see the diference between soccer being a "boy's sport" or a "girl's sport" depending on what side of the atlantic are you)

TERFs is for TRANS EXCLUSIONARY FEMINISTs, mostly second wave (old feminism) feminists that believe that trans women are mutilated men trying to invade feminist spaces, which has most critics talk "ARE YOU INSANE ?" =P

 

[kirblar]

I mean, if I'm honest here they can taint the movement when they achieve actual institutional power and/or do more harm than the rest of the movement does good. Hence why its hard for Republicans to disavow the actions of their elected representatives and GamerGate can't insist that "its actually about ethics"

If we had sound statistics showing that institutional action from widely supported feminists was causing more genuine censorship or something then I'd be there with everyone else raising concerns

The institutional power issue is precisely why these concerns are flaring up on college campuses- it's the one venue where they have it.

 

[thefit]

Militant? Really?

That's not loaded or anything.

Poor choice, I meant like really active really into it.

Oh your name is amazing right now.

 

[excelsiorlef]

Poor choice, I meant like really active really into it.

LOL

How are those synonyms in your mind.

 

[thefit]

LOL

How are those synonyms in your mind.

I just see him in a lot of feminism related threads?

 

[The Technomancer]

I have never heard of this, nor of TERFs. Could you please describe them for me?

TERFs are a bizarre mix of feminism and social conservatism, which includes exclusion of "trans women" as just men trying to incur on women's spaces. Yeah they're...not nice, and pretty much ostracized by most other feminists.

Choice feminism isn't quite as bad and is quite a bit more complex. On the surface its the idea that any choice a woman makes is in alignment with feminism because she is the one doing the choosing, which includes things like being a stay at home mom or working as a secretary or whatever. Which is all actually pretty great. The problem is that it can then be extended to ignoring social pressures and influences and their statistical (or personal) effect on people's behaviors, i.e the under-representation of women in geek spaces and STEM fields is just because less women choose go to into those spaces and fields, not because of larger issues of sexism

 

[HK-47]

I just see him in a lot of feminism related threads?

Militant means you are extremely aggressive and forceful about your view, often to the point of violence.

 

[GorillaJu]

I love this part

Toward the end, I asked how the complainants could possibly know that my essay had created a "chilling effect" on campus. One of them, I was told, had provided the lawyers with the names of students and staff members who’d testify that the essay had chilled them. I, too, could supply names of witnesses to interview, if I liked

Oh, poor baby, you feel chilled. Here, let me draw up a list of offenses you can use in retaliation. Choose your poison, it doesn't matter, whatever it is just call it Title IX.

 

[thefit]

Militant means you are extremely aggressive and forceful about your view, often to the point of violence.

Yeah, I um, I already covered that.

 

[The Technomancer]

Poor choice, I meant like really active really into it.

Oh your name is amazing right now.

I'm passionate about a lot of social stuff honestly, feminism is just one of many issues I care about and do a lot of talking about and learning about. How much you see me talk about a given subject usually is just a function of how much value I think I'll be able to add to a conversation and how much I think other posters are going to be able to explain things better than I can.

 

[royalan]

The institutional power issue is precisely why these concerns are flaring up on college campuses- it's the one venue where they have it.

Good point.

Not that I don't agree with your concerns, technomancer. I just find that with Feminism, the more radical sects have of way of being naturally sidelined by the movement at large, unlike with GamerGate, for example. The only time we really deal with them is when they get dragged to the spotlight so that people can discuss "what's wrong" with Feminism.

At least for right now, I feel Feminism does a pretty decent job of managing itself. Not that there aren't issues, though (the issue of erasure of voices of WOC from the more visible parts of the movement, just as an example).

 

[Platy]

At least for right now, I feel Feminism does a pretty decent job of managing itself. Not that there aren't issues, though (the issue of erasure of voices of WOC from the more visible parts of the movements, just as an example).

Which is why Laverne Cox is our lord and savior

 

[thefit]

I'm passionate about a lot of social stuff honestly, feminism is just one of many issues I care about and do a lot of talking about and learning about. How much you see me talk about a given subject usually is just a function of how much value I think I'll be able to add to a conversation and how much I think other posters are going to be able to explain things better than I can.

Kool.

 

[boiled goose]

The professor shouldn't be Ssilenced but certainly criticized

 

[Opto]

Reading this professor's essay

Around a decade ago, as colleges began instituting new "offensive environment" guidelines, I appointed myself the task of actually reading my university’s sexual-harassment handbook, which I’d thus far avoided doing.

Yeesh. On top of all that, a longing for a time where student/professor relations were considered fine.

 

[MHWilliams]

The professor shouldn't be Ssilenced but certainly criticized

Pretty much this.

 

[civilstrife]

Hey technomancer I've always wondered why are you such a feminist? I mean what drove you to it and to what seems its militant side?

This has to be the most blatant deflection I've ever seen. And then when you get a response:

Kool.

Don't you think the topic deserves more respect than that? I guess not.

Anyway, I will second that this seems like just yet another chapter in the history of feminism in which some have claimed it to be dying or dead, as if every movement must be entirely unified at all times. People forget the schisms that existed (and often still do) in such other worthwhile societal movements as black emancipation and gay rights.

 

[boiled goose]

Pretty much this.

Yup. The way to combat bad ideas is good ideas. If you are on the right side, you will win.

 

[kirblar]

Yup. The way to combat bad ideas is good ideas. If you are on the right side, you will win.

Sadly that is nowhere near true.

 

[MHWilliams]

Sadly that is nowhere near true.

And sadly, this is.

 

[Valhelm]

I doubt you see something saying thin women aren't real, and more like "real women have curves" or somesuch. That's a valid statement in its intended context, which is that fashion and advertising and everything else paint an unrealistic expectation within and without, so it's more like they are saying "it's okay that we aren't models because that's not the real standard."

They are saying the image and expectation of the perfect supermodel who handles everything and eats half an apple a day isn't in line with reality. Obviously models are real people but they don't represent "real people".

Of course some loon can easily write "thin women aren't real women" but that outlier would be only useful as a spotlighting/straw man fallacy to assail the positive body image movement as a whole. Which is something that happens frequently on GAF even.

I disagree. "Real women have curves" is used almost exclusively to degrade women who have thin bodies, but it's not usually used by feminists. It's more of a casual Facebook statement than anything else.

 

[Pau]

Where did you grow up? It was the opposite where I am from (Texas).

Maybe because I'm Latina, I dunno. Grew up in Miami, mostly around Colombians.

 

[Toxi]

Hey technomancer I've always wondered why are you such a feminist? I mean what drove you to it and to what seems its militant side?

Now I'm imagining Technomancer firing an AK-47 in between games of Magic the Gathering.

 

[GorillaJu]

The professor shouldn't be Ssilenced but certainly criticized

I think she would agree with that statement.

 

[Replicant]

This is a serious issue that needs to be figured out within Feminism. And it is a tragedy because parts of it are effects from when there was "white feminism" and white women tried to differentiate themselves from blacks and other "colored" people, and other parts are just straight up not being educated on what feminism is about.

Feminists had an opportunity when Emma Watson gave her speech to rally behind her and even though it wasn't perfect, at least support her fully and give the movement the push it needed. But instead what ended up happening was more infighting.

This so much. If you gonna be militant to the point of alienating the very people who otherwise would support you, you probably want to ask what you're in for in the first place. Equality for all or your selfish needs.

 

[PhoenixDark]

This is a serious issue that needs to be figured out within Feminism. And it is a tragedy because parts of it are effects from when there was "white feminism" and white women tried to differentiate themselves from blacks and other "colored" people, and other parts are just straight up not being educated on what feminism is about.

Feminists had an opportunity when Emma Watson gave her speech to rally behind her and even though it wasn't perfect, at least support her fully and give the movement the push it needed. But instead what ended up happening was more infighting.

Because the movement, like many others right now that fester online and on college campuses, are so caught up with policing thought and language that they become ineffective at accomplishing anything (outside of turning people off). There's no room for differing views, even small ones. We're seeing an intellectual decline as these groups splinter and splinter into smaller, more extreme or ridiculous segments.

 

[trips]

Her first essay was trash, but supposedly progressive students couldn't disagree with her without stooping to authoritarianism. Aren't they the ones usually complaining about bureaucratic silencing tactics? What hath "safe spaces" and "trigger warnings" wrought?

Because the movement, like many others right now that fester online and on college campuses, are so caught up with policing thought and language that they become ineffective at accomplishing anything (outside of turning people off).

People need to remember this the next time they wonder why so many women are unwilling to identify as feminists. It's absolutely caused by the orobouric nature of feminism as well as demonization from anti-feminists.

 

[excelsiorlef]

Her first essay was trash, but supposedly progressive students couldn't disagree with her without stooping to authoritarianism. Aren't they the ones usually complaining about bureaucratic silencing tactics? What hath "safe spaces" and "trigger warnings" wrought.

What the fuck do safe spaces have to do with this? I mean other than an excuse for you to take a pot shot at them, the concept has been in play for decades now.

 

[trips]

What the fuck do safe spaces have to do with this? I mean other than an excuse for you to take a pot shot at them, the concept has been in play for decades now.

Because the sensible idea that persecuted groups need spaces free of microaggressions has mutated into "we need places where we'll never be exposed to upsetting ideas, or opinions that conflict with ours". The current conception of safe spaces is part of the swing on campuses towards both infantilization and authoritarianism, the same impulses behind the title IX trolling depicted in this article. Our academic climate is producing students who cannot handle being exposed to ideas they disagree with.

 

[Klossen]

Reminds me off my own college where some feminists in the Student Council club wanted Ancient literature removed from the libraries because they had offensive content in them. Even their conversation regarding the censorship of said literature were full of try-hard political correctness where one member after the other were censoring each other. They couldn't even name exactly what it was that was so offensive because that, too, would've been offensive.

 

[excelsiorlef]

Because the sensible idea that persecuted groups need spaces free of microaggressions has mutated into "we need places where we'll never be exposed to upsetting ideas, or opinions that conflict with ours". The current conception of safe spaces is part of the swing on campuses towards both infantilization and authoritarianism, the same impulses behind the title IX trolling depicted in this article. Our academic climate is producing students who cannot handle being exposed to ideas they disagree with.

Got a source for this insane rant of yours?

No seriously do you, anything that explicitly delineates a clear trend vis a vis safe spaces?

 

[Lyonaz]

TERF = Trans exclusionary radical feminist

They're not very nice, especially if you're trans

Holy shit, these TERFs got some issues.

 

[Neoriceisgood]

Holy shit, these TERFs got some issues.

I've found that most of the really really extreme quotes/ideas attributed to 'feminism' (that aren't just bad jokes) seem to frequently lead to TERF-y types.

It's a weirdly disturbing little group.

 

[trips]

Got a source for this insane rant of yours?

No seriously do you, anything that explicitly delineates a clear trend vis a vis safe spaces?

not aware of any peer reviewed studies on the subject, so I don't have a line graph or something for you, sorry ):

here are some more insane rants on the subject of safe spaces and free speech, from both conservative and liberal sources. lot's of examples of this past year's flare ups:
http://www.theguardian.com/educatio...-or-free-speech-crisis-debate-uk-universities
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/03/22/opinion/sunday/judith-shulevitz-hiding-from-scary-ideas.html
http://time.com/3848947/dear-universities-there-should-be-no-safe-spaces-from-intellectual-thought/
http://www.washingtonpost.com/opini...086efe-b0e7-11e4-886b-c22184f27c35_story.html
http://www.washingtonpost.com/opini...2ea17a-fe6a-11e4-805c-c3f407e5a9e9_story.html

 

[SmokyDave]

Got a source for this insane rant of yours?

No seriously do you, anything that explicitly delineates a clear trend vis a vis safe spaces?

Nothing about that comment looks like an 'insane rant' to me. If anything the dude is making a damned good point.

 

[Oogedei]

not aware of any peer reviewed studies on the subject, so I don't have a line graph or something for you, sorry ):

here are some more insane rants on the subject of safe spaces and free speech, from both conservative and liberal sources. lot's of examples of this past year's flare ups:
http://www.theguardian.com/educatio...-or-free-speech-crisis-debate-uk-universities
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/03/22/opinion/sunday/judith-shulevitz-hiding-from-scary-ideas.html
http://time.com/3848947/dear-universities-there-should-be-no-safe-spaces-from-intellectual-thought/
http://www.washingtonpost.com/opini...086efe-b0e7-11e4-886b-c22184f27c35_story.html
http://www.washingtonpost.com/opini...2ea17a-fe6a-11e4-805c-c3f407e5a9e9_story.html

Yeah, as usual. And then again just because liberals also rant it does not meant that their concerns are automatically true.