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FF12 makes me realize even more how bad 15 is

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I enjoyed FFXV, thought the combat was fun and the end game dungeons and quests were good. The story was a mess for sure but I still enjoyed it overall.

Never played 12 and have been thinking about getting it but as I prefer action combat, so im not sure I will get into it, as it looks pretty generic MMO combat from the videos I watched. Probably wait for a sale on it.
 
kayos90 said:
Please. Don't be smug when you're probably the same for other things in your life like food or music or w/e.
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Forgive me master. From here on i shall try to be more humble and not try to run over others opinions and tastes while being so full of myself.
damn that must be a hard life you lead if you get so offended by people liking food and music you dont. For the record,
I definitely don't sit around and tell people what theyre eating is objectively shit.
 
DarkLordMalik said:
This doesn't just apply to FF but even games like Kingdom Hearts that were critically acclaimed back on PS2.

We will find out once KH3 and FFVII: Remake releases but even if we strictly talk about remasters, X|X-2 HD Remaster dropped from 90 to 85 and XII Remaster dropped from 92 to
87, even though it is the best version of the game which is greatly improved from the original release.
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KH and KH2 got 85 and 87 respectively. Critically acclaimed but nothing amazing back in the era of loads of games getting 90+

I wouldn't expect KH3 getting low 80's to be noteworthy at all.
 
kayos90 said:
You know people can like bad games right? which is fine btw. But when you start saying that FFXV is a good game... well... idk. Then I think you either have shitty standards or you're not experienced to be critiquing that genre.
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Pretty sure the game reviewed in the 80s on metacritic and is liked by many people. I'd say get off your high horse, but you get hurt pretty badly falling from so far up there.
kayos90 said:
Please. Don't be smug when you're probably the same for other things in your life like food or music or w/e.



Are you being serious? You haven't been in a situation where you KNOW something is actually bad but you still enjoyed it? Not once in your life? Well shit... I guess you're not human! Might as well be a robot.
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How about you also don't tell people to be smug when you write straight garbage like anyone who likes very highly reviewed game that they enjoy shitty games? Your opinion isn't worth much dude, unless you're doing this because you're not getting enough attention in the real world.
 
kayos90 said:
I'm not judging someone whether they like it or not based off my original post. I'm judging whether they actually say it's a good game. If you read my post you'd get it but hey, this isn't my first dance with you so I shouldn't be surprised.
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What's the difference between both?

If they think it is a good game, maybe it is because they enjoyed it. A good game can have flaws too. Shocking! I know.

So according to you, anyone who considers FFXV a good game has 'shitty opinion' and is not worthy of 'criticizing' any game in the RPG genre. In other words, just because they consider FFXV as a good game makes their opinion useless in any argument. Do you even think about this statement for a minute. A single game to label the person as having shitty opinion is the definition of hyperbole.

The Emperor said:
KH and KH2 got 85 and 87 respectively. Critically acclaimed but nothing amazing back in the era of loads of games getting 90+

I wouldn't expect KH3 getting low 80's to be noteworthy at all.
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It will be 'lukewarm' if we go by the taste of people in this thread though :P
 
kayos90 said:
You know people can like bad games right? which is fine btw. But when you start saying that FFXV is a good game... well... idk. Then I think you either have shitty standards or you're not experienced to be critiquing that genre.
Click to expand...

FFXV was fun. Enjoyed my time. If I had to choose between calling it a bad game or a good game, I would readily call it a good game.
 
FFXV was in development hell and the final game was rushed out the door. I'm surprised I enjoyed what we got. But yes, FFXII is superior in every way and I didn't even finish it back in the day. Looking forward to playing this version.
 
I have not read I single post in this thread but I assume theofficefan99somethingstrange has gone ballistic and darklordmaliksomething is responding with equal measure..
 
SPAW said:
I have not read I single post in this thread but I assume theofficefan99somethingstrange has gone ballistic and darklordmaliksomething is responding with equal measure..
Click to expand...

ITT: people are upset that other people do not like and dislike the same things that they do.
 
MetalliCabombination said:
Forgive me master. From here on i shall try to be more humble and not try to run over others opinions and tastes while being so full of myself.
damn that must be a hard life you lead if you get so offended by people liking food and music you dont. For the record,
I definitely don't sit around and tell people what theyre eating is objectively shit.
Click to expand...

LegendofDragoonLives said:
Pretty sure the game reviewed in the 80s on metacritic and is liked by many people. I'd say get off your high horse, but you get hurt pretty badly falling from so far up there.

How about you also don't tell people to be smug when you write straight garbage like anyone who likes very highly reviewed game that they enjoy shitty games? Your opinion isn't worth much dude, unless you're doing this because you're not getting enough attention in the real world.
Click to expand...

DarkLordMalik said:
What's the difference between both?

If they think it is a good game, maybe it is because they enjoyed it. A good game can have flaws too. Shocking! I know.

So according to you, anyone who considers FFXV a good game has 'shitty opinion' and is not worthy of 'criticizing' any game in the RPG genre. In other words, just because they consider FFXV as a good game makes their opinion useless in any argument. Do you even think about this statement for a minute. A single game to label the person as having shitty opinion is the definition of hyperbole.


It will be 'lukewarm' if we go by the taste of people in this thread though :P
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Officefan must've burned yall bad and made you upset cuz yall are being real obtuse.
 
Honestly, I like XV a lot more than XII.

My opinion only:

Story = XV (Yes, the watered down XV story is more interesting to me than the XII story)
Gameplay = XV (Gambits are too boring for me)
Soundtrack = tie (XV would win if it wasn't for the terrible town music)
Art direction = XV (I'm just a big fan of Nomura's work)
Characters = XV (The XII characters are mostly lifeless. I'd rather have XV's underdeveloped but fun and witty characters)


Overall, I found XV to be a much more satisfying game even with its faults in comparison to XII. I'll give XII another chance soon with the remaster though.
 
badcrumble said:
it rules that FF12's CG intro and Reks tutorial nail all of the relevant plot points of Kingsglaive but far more cogently and in a fraction of the time
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I can very much agree with this

I understand that it would be alot harder to recreate the same scene in XV given that it would require you to play a controllable Regis

But this would have absolutely made XV's opening one of the best in FF history, and would have been a much better foreshadowing of endgame Noctis to get to play as "endgame Regis".
 
You can think FFXV was a great, good, mediocre, bad or awful game and no one can tell you you're wrong - it's subjective. And no one can say you're trolling or shitposting. They can ask you to back up your reasoning but even then they'll just have to accept that reasoning - it's just as subjective.

What's not subjective is how many people like / don't like a game. Unfortunately that's almost impossible to measure so we get subjective anecdotes about how people 'feel' a game was received.

When you get a game that was as highly anticipated as this in a series so beloved for three decades, and then people have highly divergent reactions to it, you're gonna get threads like this, where two sides clash hard against each other and emotions invested over the course of years come out, both in those disappointed by a series they love and those feeling it's under unfair attack.

I'd love to act all impartial and say I sit in the middle on this one, but I don't. I love the first half of XII, and while the second half was a disappointment I felt like it was mediocre at worst. FFXV, on the other hand, felt like the worst big-budget AAA game I had played in years. It failed as an open world game, as a story, the combat was poor, controls unresponsive, pacing terrible, characters bland and forgettable... I could go on. Hated it from the start. I would have given it 2 stars out of 5 had I reviewed it. I don't think it does any one thing well, and it does quite a few things utterly incompetently. That's just my take.

Like I said, it's the fact that some people genuinely think it's truly terrible and others love it - that's just a recipe for the other side to feel like they're being trolled, then distrust breeds and then it starts getting personal.
 
Since people aren't actually conceptualizing what I originally laid out let me use an example. Food is probably a good one. I'd say most people here like steak. Food is either it tastes good or it tastes bad for the most part. Of course, we all have palette that develop over time and we use comparison as a measure as we get more experienced. The first steak you have is at Denny's or IHOP. It tastes good. After all, who doesn't love steak! Jokes aside, if that's your first steak and as long as it tastes good then all's well that ends well. However, that's just it. It tasted good. There's no comparison. Now let's say you go to a dedicated nationwide chain steakhouse. Maybe even statewide. They specialize in affordable steaks for the most part. You eat it and it also tastes good. However, you realize that this steak tastes better than the one you had at Denny's. Oh man. Now you know that both tastes good but one is clearly better tasting. Now you go to a local 5* steakhouse made a dry-aged premium cut. This steak tastes fantastic! It's amazing! You now have a scale to work with. Now we can say all the steaks we ate are good (or maybe you've culled off the Denny's steak at this point). However there is a difference in measure of what is good. However, just because it tastes better doesn't mean it's to our liking. Surprisingly, taste is one thing but it's one facet. Maybe it's the amount of money you spend, it's the atmosphere in the restaurant, maybe it's the texture, maybe it's the staff. A variety of things take into place. You might actually like the chain steakhouses. That's fine. Nothing wrong with that. You prefer it more. But when you start saying that the chain steakhouse is better than that local 5* steakhouse. Well… Might wanna check yourself a bit.
 
kayos90 said:
Since people aren't actually conceptualizing what I originally laid out let me use an example. Food is probably a good one. I'd say most people here like steak. Food is either it tastes good or it tastes bad for the most part. Of course, we all have palette that develop over time and we use comparison as a measure as we get more experienced. The first steak you have is at Denny's or IHOP. It tastes good. After all, who doesn't love steak! Jokes aside, if that's your first steak and as long as it tastes good then all's well that ends well. However, that's just it. It tasted good. There's no comparison. Now let's say you go to a dedicated nationwide chain steakhouse. Maybe even statewide. They specialize in affordable steaks for the most part. You eat it and it also tastes good. However, you realize that this steak tastes better than the one you had at Denny's. Oh man. Now you know that both tastes good but one is clearly better tasting. Now you go to a local 5* steakhouse made a dry-aged premium cut. This steak tastes fantastic! It's amazing! You now have a scale to work with. Now we can say all the steaks we ate are good (or maybe you've culled off the Denny's steak at this point). However there is a difference in measure of what is good. However, just because it tastes better doesn't mean it's to our liking. Surprisingly, taste is one thing but it's one facet. Maybe it's the amount of money you spend, it's the atmosphere in the restaurant, maybe it's the texture, maybe it's the staff. A variety of things take into place. You might actually like the chain steakhouses. That's fine. Nothing wrong with that. You prefer it more. But when you start saying that the chain steakhouse is better than that local 5* steakhouse. Well… Might wanna check yourself a bit.
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What the hell is going on in this thread?! haha
 
FFXII:TZA makes me realize even more how bad the original FFXII is.

The hyperbole in this thread is incredible. A guess that's really the case for all FF debates, love it or hate it.

Someone mentioned that FFXV had better comradery, completely agree. Sure tons of the characters fell flat but hanging out traveling Eos in the Regalia hunting monsters, taking pictures, setting up camp, eating food. All made the four main character so much more relatable and memorable than the political melodrama of FFXII cast.

The gameplay for both will always be debatable. Again, both have strengths and weaknesses. FFXV is quick and requires some level of attention and reaction time when you dodge or parry. But it can become too hectic where you gotta just spam items to survive. That being said. It's so satisfying to warp around the battlefield.

FFXII's Gambits are a great way to automate the tedium of having to sift through menus. But with an ideal gambit set up the game plays it's self. Which was, and still is my biggest gripe with FFXII after all these years. As someone who felt FFXII wasn't the second coming in 2006. TZA is amazing giving all the changes.

I can't even remember or care about FFXII's story. Final Fantasy Tactics is still the only game set in Ivalce where I was invested in the story. FFXV's story was far less complicated, but had a couple of WTF is happening moments where In had to read up what happened. Which is terrible for story telling, but I felt invested enough to read more. FFXII, still just bores me. Something about Ashe's revenge.

Music, FFXII is by far more consistent with it's music. Though I can't name any of the songs. The melodies are catchy and rousing but it all just felt like generic grandiose JRPG music after a while. FFXV had high points and generic low points. There is a certain level of variety to FFXV's music. Hitting guitar-y twang-y -ness of an old gasoline station. To the epic combat music. I'd still take FFXV just for Up for The Challenge alone.

I get if, if you don't like or just absolutely hate FFXV, FFXII must be the greatest game ever. Same can be said the other way around. The reality is they are both flawed just in different ways. Personally I'll take the mess of a game FFXV is because I had fun playing it over FFXII which is a more cohesive package because it's story. characters, and music.

If The Zodiac Age was the original release I would probably hold FFXII in higher regard, but the first impression it made on me in 2006 still lasts. I played FFXV when it was released and loves it even without all the awesome patches and DLC it is getting.
 
kayos90 said:
Since people aren't actually conceptualizing what I originally laid out let me use an example. Food is probably a good one. I'd say most people here like steak. Food is either it tastes good or it tastes bad for the most part. Of course, we all have palette that develop over time and we use comparison as a measure as we get more experienced. The first steak you have is at Denny's or IHOP. It tastes good. After all, who doesn't love steak! Jokes aside, if that's your first steak and as long as it tastes good then all's well that ends well. However, that's just it. It tasted good. There's no comparison. Now let's say you go to a dedicated nationwide chain steakhouse. Maybe even statewide. They specialize in affordable steaks for the most part. You eat it and it also tastes good. However, you realize that this steak tastes better than the one you had at Denny's. Oh man. Now you know that both tastes good but one is clearly better tasting. Now you go to a local 5* steakhouse made a dry-aged premium cut. This steak tastes fantastic! It's amazing! You now have a scale to work with. Now we can say all the steaks we ate are good (or maybe you've culled off the Denny's steak at this point). However there is a difference in measure of what is good. However, just because it tastes better doesn't mean it's to our liking. Surprisingly, taste is one thing but it's one facet. Maybe it's the amount of money you spend, it's the atmosphere in the restaurant, maybe it's the texture, maybe it's the staff. A variety of things take into place. You might actually like the chain steakhouses. That's fine. Nothing wrong with that. You prefer it more. But when you start saying that the chain steakhouse is better than that local 5* steakhouse. Well… Might wanna check yourself a bit.
Click to expand...

Lmao.
 
kayos90 said:
Since people aren't actually conceptualizing what I originally laid out let me use an example. Food is probably a good one. I'd say most people here like steak. Food is either it tastes good or it tastes bad for the most part. Of course, we all have palette that develop over time and we use comparison as a measure as we get more experienced. The first steak you have is at Denny's or IHOP. It tastes good. After all, who doesn't love steak! Jokes aside, if that's your first steak and as long as it tastes good then all's well that ends well. However, that's just it. It tasted good. There's no comparison. Now let's say you go to a dedicated nationwide chain steakhouse. Maybe even statewide. They specialize in affordable steaks for the most part. You eat it and it also tastes good. However, you realize that this steak tastes better than the one you had at Denny's. Oh man. Now you know that both tastes good but one is clearly better tasting. Now you go to a local 5* steakhouse made a dry-aged premium cut. This steak tastes fantastic! It's amazing! You now have a scale to work with. Now we can say all the steaks we ate are good (or maybe you've culled off the Denny's steak at this point). However there is a difference in measure of what is good. However, just because it tastes better doesn't mean it's to our liking. Surprisingly, taste is one thing but it's one facet. Maybe it's the amount of money you spend, it's the atmosphere in the restaurant, maybe it's the texture, maybe it's the staff. A variety of things take into place. You might actually like the chain steakhouses. That's fine. Nothing wrong with that. You prefer it more. But when you start saying that the chain steakhouse is better than that local 5* steakhouse. Well… Might wanna check yourself a bit.
Click to expand...

LMAO
 
Holundrian said:
Cause it feeds on the criticism downplay circle jerk.
Click to expand...
What kind of in-depth or thoughtful criticism are people downplaying in this thread? Especially compared to the sheer amount of posts like the person I'm quoting below. You are a fan of Easy Allies are you not? Ben Moore gave this game a 4.5/5 stars, but this person below us is saying he isn't qualified for reviewing games because he thinks XV is a good game. Reviews are opinions and all, but when people start citing things like the game is universally panned or reception was lukewarm across the board, that is objectively false.
kayos90 said:
You know people can like bad games right? which is fine btw. But when you start saying that FFXV is a good game... well... idk. Then I think you either have shitty standards or you're not experienced to be critiquing that genre.
Click to expand...
Judging from your subsequent posts, especially your latest one above me, you don't get what's wrong with your post. What is your response to the reviewers that gave it good scores that have been reviewing games for a significant amount of time? Do they all just have shit standards?
Griss said:
What's not subjective is how many people like / don't like a game. Unfortunately that's almost impossible to measure so we get subjective anecdotes about how people 'feel' a game was received.
Click to expand...
You're right that it's not subjective, but I mean it's not that hard to see where the critics stand on how the game was received.
 
Rappy said:
Judging from your subsequent posts, especially your latest one above me, you don't get what's wrong with your post. What is your response to the reviewers that gave it good scores that have been reviewing games for a significant amount of time? Do they all just have shit standards.
Click to expand...

Yes, they probably gave a Denny's steak an 8/10 too.
 
Rappy said:
Judging from your subsequent posts, especially your latest one above me, you don't get what's wrong with your post. What is your response to the reviewers that gave it good scores that have been reviewing games for a significant amount of time? Do they all just have shit standards?
Click to expand...

Personally speaking, I prefer the user aggregation than the critics aggregation since it's just a larger number to work with. I don't go with that preference all the time but in this case it's not so far a deviation that I prefer to look at that number. Just for reference also, about 450+ people had positive reception on metacritic while around 320+ people had mixed to negative. Interesting infobit.
 
DarkLordMalik said:
No Thanks. FFXV is pretty good for a newcomer as it is and this is ancedotal and all but I know several people who were introduced to the series through XV and they enjoyed it for what it was, not for what it wasn't.
Click to expand...

That's like letting someone's first Assassin's creed be #1 which is clearly the weakest game in that franchise, but with nothing else to compare it to you'll get an ok reception.

FF15 is a fine game with plenty of positives, but if I wanted someone to get hooked on a franchise and have them on their own want to play more of them, then 15 isn't the one I'd put in front of them first.
 
KTIBP1l.gif


This thread got too weird.
 
kayos90 said:
Personally speaking, I prefer the user aggregation than the critics aggregation since it's just a larger number to work with. I don't go with that preference all the time but in this case it's not so far a deviation that I prefer to look at that number. Just for reference also, about 450+ people had positive reception on metacritic while around 320+ people had mixed to negative. Interesting infobit.
Click to expand...

The problem with user scores is that they're skewed by large numbers of OMG best game ever 10/10 and Shit 0/10. Not that critic scores are any kind of gospel for judging a game either
 
Rappy said:
You're right that it's not subjective, but I mean it's not that hard to see where the critics stand on how the game was received.
Click to expand...

True enough, but even then you get into subjective measures of what 'a good score' is, what 'lukewarm reviews' are, what 'the difference between scores in this era and a decade ago' is and so on and so forth.

Personally I thought FFXV did have lukewarm reviews, and that an 81 metascore is mediocre for a game with the budget, production values, and in-built franchise loyalty of Final Fantasy XV. That said I'd still admit that the reviews were 'decent' (which is way more than it deserved) and I imagine that considering the nightmare of developing and finishing this game, and the reaction to the initial demos, Square Enix must have been hugely relieved and pretty happy to be above that 80 mark - as long as you clear that bar I feel like the reviews aren't gonna affect your sales. And I think we can objectively say that the game sold very well.
 
kromeo said:
The problem with user scores is that they're skewed by large numbers of OMG best game ever 10/10 and Shit 0/10. Not that critic scores are any kind of gospel for judging a game either
Click to expand...

No doubt. But both sides of the numbers should balance out for the most part since it's not skewed on one specific side.
 
This thread would've been better with that one tangent about FF12 being the best JRPG since 12 instead of an excuse to shit on XV.
 
kayos90 said:
Officefan must've burned yall bad and made you upset cuz yall are being real obtuse.
Click to expand...

kayos90 said:
Since people aren't actually conceptualizing what I originally laid out let me use an example. Food is probably a good one. I'd say most people here like steak. Food is either it tastes good or it tastes bad for the most part. Of course, we all have palette that develop over time and we use comparison as a measure as we get more experienced. The first steak you have is at Denny's or IHOP. It tastes good. After all, who doesn't love steak! Jokes aside, if that's your first steak and as long as it tastes good then all's well that ends well. However, that's just it. It tasted good. There's no comparison. Now let's say you go to a dedicated nationwide chain steakhouse. Maybe even statewide. They specialize in affordable steaks for the most part. You eat it and it also tastes good. However, you realize that this steak tastes better than the one you had at Denny's. Oh man. Now you know that both tastes good but one is clearly better tasting. Now you go to a local 5* steakhouse made a dry-aged premium cut. This steak tastes fantastic! It's amazing! You now have a scale to work with. Now we can say all the steaks we ate are good (or maybe you've culled off the Denny's steak at this point). However there is a difference in measure of what is good. However, just because it tastes better doesn't mean it's to our liking. Surprisingly, taste is one thing but it's one facet. Maybe it's the amount of money you spend, it's the atmosphere in the restaurant, maybe it's the texture, maybe it's the staff. A variety of things take into place. You might actually like the chain steakhouses. That's fine. Nothing wrong with that. You prefer it more. But when you start saying that the chain steakhouse is better than that local 5* steakhouse. Well… Might wanna check yourself a bit.
Click to expand...
This is hilarious, pathetic, and cringe worthy. Go outside and make some friends. Less time trying to talk down to people who don't have the same tastes in gaming like you. It's hilarious how confident you are that your taste in gaming is unquestionably better than everyone on gaf.
 
I was a big fan of FFXV, definitely one of my favorites from 2016. Loved the world, music, and characters. Looking back now it is easier to see the flaws in storytelling and gameplay, but it is the ultimate flawed gem. XII, on the other hand, was a masterpiece then and remains one now. Just a better package overall. Great story, characters, art, music, etc. Everything feels polished, while XV had plenty of jank. Not sure why XII was divisive, honestly.
 
Erm... Why are people so aggressive toward opinions ?

I hate the game, I don't get how someone could like it but if they do, good for them. I'm kinda jealous because I wanted to love the game so much.

I won't change their mind by insulting them on the internet, nor will I take away the fun they actually had while playing the game.

It's okay to disagree but no need to start a War.
 
LordKasual said:
I can very much agree with this

I understand that it would be alot harder to recreate the same scene in XV given that it would require you to play a controllable Regis

But this would have absolutely made XV's opening one of the best in FF history, and would have been a much better foreshadowing of endgame Noctis to get to play as "endgame Regis".
Click to expand...
Oh how I'd have loved an intro where we play as Regis, fight that General..and then die. It could have existed along with Kingsglaive.
 
Sad Affleck said:
I'm confused, I thought FFXV was received very well but a lot of people seem to really dislike it. Is this a vocal minority or did the game just disappoint in the end?
Click to expand...

Hype cycle, takes a few months for the shine to wear off any new aaa game with giant marketing budget. And there are vocal 'minorities' on both sides.
 
joe_zazen said:
Hype cycle, takes a few months for the shine to wear off any new aaa game with giant marketing budget. And there are vocal 'minorities' on both sides.
Click to expand...

I think it's more like, the people who enjoyed it played it and moved on, but the haters just love to hate on it at every oppty. It happens all the time here.
 
DeSo said:
Three times I tried with XII. Boring story and a grindfest for gil. The fact that they felt they needed to add a fast forward to this re-release says it all.
Click to expand...

You mean a fastforward mode like with FF7 and FF9?

FFXV had few good points, but I don't trust Square Enix making FFXVI a good game. After the three part documentation about FFXIV and the development of the game...

It's a surprise that FFXV managed to get such good reviews (even though it seems like people just wink the story away which is the most important part for me, and that was just a clusterfuck in this game which is why I am disappointed)
 
LegendofDragoonLives said:
This is hilarious, pathetic, and cringe worthy. Go outside and make some friends. Less time trying to talk down to people who don't have the same tastes in gaming like you. It's hilarious how confident you are that your taste in gaming is unquestionably better than everyone on gaf.
Click to expand...

Thanks fam. Solid argument.
 
Mendrox said:
That development money should have went into more cutscenes instead of making me hungry.
Click to expand...
Yoko Taro disagrees.

Koozek said:
Discover the Creators: Yoko Taro’s Favorite PS4 Games

Yoko Taro:
I was creating a title called NIER Gestalt/Replicant when this title was called Versus XIII but because it was very likely that our games would release around the same time, I was thinking “oh man, Versus is an action RPG right? It would suck if the release dates were close to each other.” NIER ended up releasing without having to worry about Versus XIII but then, when I was creating Drakengard 3 I thought “it would suck if they release close to our release,” and it was the same again when we were creating NieR: Automata this time too. Looking back, I feel like I was trapped by the curse of Versus for about 10 years. This game and its content created over the course of 10 years is unparalleled and unique, and I enjoyed it a lot. The one thing that surprised me the most is their incomprehensible passion towards food and beverage. FF is amazing.​
Click to expand...
 
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