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FF13 battle system director = Toshiro Tsuchida

yamaneko said:
people with LOL names and avatar no sense from nowhere don't can talk about anyone ;-)
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What does that even mean? Can someone translate for me, please?

My username is a historical name, and my avatars are from Panzer Dragoon Saga, which happens to be one of the definitive console RPGs. Maybe you'd like to call that junk too, eh?
 
x had a decent battle system - it was other parts of the game that really hurt it for me.

xii has a great *idea* for a battle system - what they ended up seems a faint shadow of what is possible here.

i couldn't imagine they'd go back to random encounters after xii, but confirmation is good.

i'm intrigued by comments about monster abilities outside of combat and environmental effects - this is something i've been wanting for a long while, and xii totally dropped the ball here even though they had the start of something on this front.

and feeling the emotions of the characters in combat - seriously? yuck. i realize that ff is the emotion and drama series, but it's getting a bit much (and it's started to affect other aaa projects like some sort of drama virus!). please spend 99.9% of your effort making the combat system interesting/varied, and use the remaining .1% for appropriately modelled grimaces and tears.
 
birdchili said:
and feeling the emotions of the characters in combat - seriously? yuck. i realize that ff is the emotion and drama series, but it's getting a bit much (and it's started to affect other aaa projects like some sort of drama virus!). please spend 99.9% of your effort making the combat system interesting/varied, and use the remaining .1% for appropriately modelled grimaces and tears.
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thank god you are not a head designer on this series.


Yuji Hori might hire you, though.
 
Rufus said:
No, it wasn't.
It was a pretentious, wannabe board game, but tolerable. The best part of the game was the turn based battle system, especially the bar that showed you the queue including the effects of time spells and so on.
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so the most interesting part of the game was the turn-based battle system, something that had been in nearly every installment of the series to date? i don't see that, but alright.

what i did see was that the sphere grid was interesting in that it started the player off in a direction that built basic attributes, developed some core abilities of the characters, then eventually gave you the opportunity to branch out and do your own thing in how you wanted to make the characters develop. it was a nice physical representation of how the levelling would work: characters started in one area with their particular strengths that could be more easily developed, but for tidus to become a good spellcaster, it was clear he'd have to travel across the board to yuna or lulu's area.

couple that with the ability to fill in empty nodes with upgrades of your choice, and i don't see how that's less interesting than a turn-based battle system. i actually enjoyed the battle system in ffx just fine, but it wasn't anything revolutionary or of particular note.
 
I absolutely loved FFX's battle system, perfect example of traditional turn-based combat with some much needed strategy and planning elements.
 
beelzebozo said:
so the most interesting part of the game was the turn-based battle system, something that had been in nearly every installment of the series to date? i don't see that, but alright.
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What you're missing is that turn order in FFX is very important. If you plan right, the game flows very smoothly in your favor, I won't deny. But it's not just a matter of hitting the X button over and over. Since you know the turns order, blinding/slowing the right enemy at the right time lets you take complete control over the battle. It's a very fun experience.
 
RevenantKioku said:
What you're missing is that turn order in FFX is very important. If you plan right, the game flows very smoothly in your favor, I won't deny. But it's not just a matter of hitting the X button over and over. Since you know the turns order, blinding/slowing the right enemy at the right time lets you take complete control over the battle. It's a very fun experience.
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point well taken, though i'm still not sure this qualifies it as more interesting than what they were trying to accomplish with the sg.
 
X's battle system was a fast and fun version of the classic FFI/IV/VI/VII/IX battle system.

Still I would hope it has some of the deeper elements like a job system from X-2/III/V. Of course it's not going to play anything like FFXII and will be more like a turn-based FF, but who cares, that's what FF has always been: turn-based with summons and a neat system or two in addition to standard attack/magic/item/defend/run.
 
Wow, I never realised FFX was so hated. I guess every FF has its own dedicated bunch of haters though! :D

You guys are being silly if you think FFXIII's team won't take anything from FFXII's innovations. XIII's system looks to be quite different, but it will surely take a cue from the more fundamental changes FFXII introduced. These teams don't work in isolation from one another.

Anyway, some of these ideas sound fantastic, especially the stuff about more unique enemies, emotions, etc. I'm so impressed with the constant effort Kitase's teams put into surprising players with new and unique stuff (despite all the bitching from fans).

I do worry about FFXIII's sales, though. Luckily FF is now a global franchise, because the shifting tastes in Japan could otherwise have spelt doom for big budget FFs.

edit: and to repeat Ceb's request, what's your source on all this tennin? ;)
 
beelzebozo said:
so the most interesting part of the game was the turn-based battle system, something that had been in nearly every installment of the series to date? i don't see that, but alright.
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That's right, you don't, because that's not quite what I said. It was not "the same", it had minor but quite meaningful alterations. Up until X I never really planned my moves beforehand, I just reacted to a given situation most of the time. In X I often found myself trying to kill every enemy I encountered before it could do anything, or I was trying to retard their actions as much as possible so I could buff everyone and so on. There was more depth to it.
It got repetitive eventually, but that was more due to the enemies you encountered. Same types, same constellations, just stronger in each area. But that's another story.

beelzebozo said:
it was a nice physical representation of how the levelling would work:
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True, but it was also different for the sake of being different. It wasn't a bad system, by no means, it worked out just fine, like every other system did. But it wasn't anything special either. Neither do I see an improvement in the fact that it's a nice representation of how leveling works, it was just inane.
Then there's also the way you progress on it. You have to activate spheres to move around, while that's not a problem, most of the time, customizing characters can get quite annoying. What if I want a second character with good healing spells? Wait until you get one of those spheres that let's you jump to Yuna's area, or go there 'by foot'? Neither is a very good choice and until you accomplished any of the two, your strategy will evolve around what the sphere grid allows you to do, not about what you want it do. And I don't like that. I prefer the systems where you have complete freedom over your characters abilities.

beelzebozo said:
couple that with the ability to fill in empty nodes with upgrades of your choice, and i don't see how that's less interesting than a turn-based battle system.
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That doesn't make much sense now, does it?

beelzebozo said:
i actually enjoyed the battle system in ffx just fine, but it wasn't anything revolutionary or of particular note.
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Agreed. It was 'just' an evolutionary step.
 
Bebpo said:
X's battle system was a fast and fun version of the classic FFI/IV/VI/VII/IX battle system.

Still I would hope it has some of the deeper elements like a job system from X-2/III/V. Of course it's not going to play anything like FFXII and will be more like a turn-based FF, but who cares, that's what FF has always been: turn-based with summons and a neat system or two in addition to standard attack/magic/item/defend/run.
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Its really difficult to get a sense of the battle system from the interviews, he seems to want to distance it from previous ffs, and also added he wants to make it the fastest and flashiest yet

peace
 
Rufus said:
Neither is a very good choice and until you accomplished any of the two, your strategy will evolve around what the sphere grid allows you to do, not about what you want it do. And I don't like that. I prefer the systems where you have complete freedom over your characters abilities.
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But of course, a lot of peoplem complained that FFVII and VIII's systems were too open-ended and lacked defined abilities for each character. So people have different tastes, and it's virtually impossible to please everyone at once. FFX was a good stab a striking a balance between the two - characters had their own defined paths, but could be made to deviate from those paths at a certain point (or with a certain amount of levelling).

I found it a lot of fun personally.
 
edit: and to repeat Ceb's request, what's your source on all this tennin? ;)
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According to this translator (mentioned on page 3), this interview comes from Geemaga magazine.

Here's that translation:

Q. Why did you appoint Tsuchida as battle planner?

Kitase: Since we're working on a next generation console, as a designer, I'd want to pack a bunch of things in [the game]. Tsuchida being professionally good at practically doing these things is what I'm looking forward to.

Toriyama: Having connections with FF10, we requested Tsuchida to be our battle planner.

Tsuchida: This time we got the assignment "expand into [something] speedy and flashy" from the start.

Toriyama: We ordered for a party battle [system] that will allow us to feel the the characters' raw feelings*.

Q. Battles are in the form of encounter system?

Tsuchida: We might do something different. Instead of being face-to-face with the enemies from the start, FF13 will start from somewhere like "Ah, an enemy there."

Q. Like FF12?

Tsuchida: Like, if you do this you might get the upperhand, or, in the process of entering a battle, users get to create a circumstance of their own in a way. So far monsters had only been fast or able to cast magic so we want to give some traits outside of battles too.

Q. Are there Jobs and Abilities too?

Tsuchida: I can't say much for now but [learning] the fun of growing up is important in the series so we're thinking thoroughly of ways to make people enjoy [the game].

Q. Who is Mr. "33 cm"?

Toriyama: The game's story isn't about a party of people banding together to save the world, so in that sense we don't know if he's an ally or an enemy. (Lightning seems to dislike him, too?)

Nomura: Personality-wise he's wild and heroic. We'll be revealing [more info of] him later but [you'll see] he has a funny way of fighting.

Just like Shiva transforming into a motorbike, the other summons in FF13 will also have the same kind of strong partnership with the characters.

Q. How is the development feeling now?

Kitase: Using the White Engine on FF13 constructs a development environment that we never had before. We're also thinking of using the White Engine on games we're planning to develop after FF13 so we're going a lot of troubles for that but if we overcome this hurdle, I think we'll be able to come up with something great with it.
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I made it from the start of the area to the end of the area without pressing a button, great battle system FFXII! It didn't exactly allow for fun or interesting boss battles, either, much less memorable ones. FFX had those, lots and lots of those.

Seriously, X's system rocked, though X-2's was superior.

edit: now that I've read the interview... it looks like they have a clear idea of where they want to go with it and its silly to expect it to be like FFXII or FFX.
 
tebiro boy said:
But of course, a lot of peoplem complained that FFVII and VIII's systems were too open-ended and lacked defined abilities for each character.
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Which is kind of stupid, since you had every freedom to define them. :/

tebiro boy said:
FFX was a good stab a striking a balance between the two - characters had their own defined paths, but could be made to deviate from those paths at a certain point (or with a certain amount of levelling).
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True, especially for people who were playing their first FF or RPG. It's hard to **** up and end up with useless characters, it's giving the people a lot of time to learn the system before they eventually start experimenting for themselves, and you don't have to bother much with it if you don't want to.
That's all good and well (and a good way to cater to the masses) but I prefer complete freedom over anything else. Just a matter of opinion, as you said.
 
Nomura: Personality-wise he's wild and heroic. We'll be revealing [more info of] him later but [you'll see] he has a funny way of fighting.
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Huh? Will he throw his boots at enemies or what? Hit them with his bike? :lol
 
actually moving in FF12 did have a huge affect, you could dodge AOEs and have the monster chase you around so you could get some breathing room. A lot of attacks dont work if you turn your back to the monster right away.

It made it a lot of fun. Actually i've liked all the FF battle systems so far, because they are all unique in their own way and its fun. I hope they have a job system like FFX-2 because that was the best part of that game.
 
Kitase: Using the White Engine on FF13 constructs a development environment that we never had before. We're also thinking of using the White Engine on games we're planning to develop after FF13 so we're going a lot of troubles for that but if we overcome this hurdle, I think we'll be able to come up with something great with it.
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DC charlie and JohnnyRam am cry

So much for their they switched to UE 3 fud.
 
The problem with Final Fantasy is that they bring in new ideas and concepts of RPG gameplay but barely improve on it, or use it again. Battle systems of X and XII (if it were to be used ever again) could have been refined further for a much improved system.

It's unfortunate but that's how Japanese are, they build, destroy, and rebuild.
 
Ranger X said:
Excellent news!
My fav battle systems are from SRPG + i did really like FF10 battles (only good thing about this game though) and i freakin hate the new ritalin-less mmo style of today that is spreading its shittyness way too much.
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Agree 100%. I like my RPG battles to be turn based, it's what I've grown up on, it's what I like and simply put, it's what works. And every turn based system is different so it's not like it's exactly the same in every game. Although obviously like any design choice it has it's flaws. But I honestly believe that turn based is the best choice for the genre.

I mean some people tried to make action RPGs, but the problem with those is that they become mindless and pointless tapping X to perform the same single/3 hit combo over and over and over again....not to mention the stories/world/characters/design normally sucks ass in ARPGs.

Some have tried to go in different directions where they used semi-turn based semi-realtime systems, something like Star Ocean, where this falls flat is that you can only control one character at a time by yourself and thus are left with retarded AI that make me not care about the characters I'm not controlling. And if you can't controll a party of characters...then what's the point in it being an RPG?

Then comes the worst of all....the semi-MMO *shudder*. This is the evil spawn of satan battle system. The one with the least control over anything where you just watch the AI control your characters and every so often you press X or something. Hate...it...so....much.

As for FFX, I liked the quick pace of the battle system and really liked the ability to switch out a character at any time. It really made me use all of my characters instead of just sticking to a few and ignoring the ones I couldn't be bothered using. Now everyone had a use and a chance to be useful, as well as get some EXP.

Although can't say I was a big fan of the Sphere Grid, not that I hated it or anything, just thought it was "OK". As for the rest of FFX...meh...had alot of problems.

The one FF that seems to get the most undeserved hate is FFIX for some reason...was it the "kiddy" look? the time it came out? I just don't get it, especially when there are plenty of FF games out there worthy of hate such as FFVIII, FFX and FFXII (Yeah I said it).

I have no idea what battle system they will make for FFXIII but I pray that it is as far away from FFXII as possible. As long as it is I will be able to enjoy and appreciate the game, if it's anything like FFXII I'll have to pass.
 
Goodie. XII made me more frusterated than happy in the end, so I stopped playing purely because of its battle system. I'm sure I'll pick it up in a few weeks and be like "okay, this isn't that bad" and I'll like it. But X's battle system was PERFECT for me. I loved it.

I guess I was the only one who liked the sphere grid, also...:(
 
Troidal said:
The problem with Final Fantasy is that they bring in new ideas and concepts of RPG gameplay but barely improve on it, or use it again. Battle systems of X and XII (if it were to be used ever again) could have been refined further for a much improved system.
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FFX is an improved system. It's an amalgamation of new ideas and old conventions.
They always add to it while retaining many aspect of former games, giving them a different twist with each iteration. There's just no stringent line of evolution.
The same can be said about FFXII, even though the changes are greater and have a much bigger impact on how you play.
 
BrandNew said:
Goodie. XII made me more frusterated than happy in the end, so I stopped playing purely because of its battle system. I'm sure I'll pick it up in a few weeks and be like "okay, this isn't that bad" and I'll like it. But X's battle system was PERFECT for me. I loved it.

I guess I was the only one who liked the sphere grid, also...:(
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I adored it.
 
I didn't see anything here to make me think the battle system will be "more like FFX", but since everyone is talking like it's a sure thing I guess I'll play along and say I will do whatever it takes to play this game if the battle system and feel return to the FFX style. Pretty much everything about that game was perfect apart from constantly shuffling characters into battle to get experience. I'd be fine even if FF13 is in the FF12 style though, as it'd save me money and it's not as though there aren't enough other games out there to keep me occupied (AI-controlled (programmable or not) main characters and political storylines make me cry.
I hated Shadow of the Colossus too so my opinion on any game ever is permainvalidated
).

If I had to guess I'd say the battle system is going to be more like FF12. Choosing every action for every character would be considered too far a step backwards for a lot of casual RPG fans and the KH funbunch, and it would slow the system down too much for the fast-paced, "exciting" direction I believe Squeenix is leading this series.
 
Yay sphere grid people. *high fives*

I just enjoyed it because I like to SEE what I'm upgrading. I hate in RPGS when you just randomly level up certain things that you have no control over. Dragon Quest VIII, FFX, and to a certain extent FFXII (from what I played) had some awesome custimization.
 
haircut said:
Choosing every action for every character would be considered too far a step backwards for a lot of casual RPG fans, and it would slow the system down too much for the fast-paced, "exciting" direction I believe Squeenix is leading this series.
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if there's *any* sort of ai involved in my party members actions i better have *complete* control over what they're doing gambit-style.

the trend to computer-controlled party members makes my inner rpg fan cry. having "guests" in ff:xii was infuriating.

i'd love to see something more tactical, but the "fastest battle system ever" comments have me skeptical.
 
Bebpo said:
I think Koei and Capcom would like to have a word with you ;P
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Good point :lol

I'd say they smartly adopted Western style of development which is more cost-efficient :-P
Its always about balance though. Too many rehashes and director's cuts aren't what I'm looking for either.

But my statement applies to a more broad Japanese term...like they prefer to build new buildings, mansions and houses for people to occupy when they could just renovate older ones...The same with consumer elctronics...everyone wants the new models, not the old models. Japanese don't like "old" things...the perfect consumer for business.
 
MoxManiac said:
I liked the sphere grid until i heard japan and europe got an updated and better one.
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More customizable, but easier to screw up on, and fewer grid spaces = weaker characters if you do all the crazy endgame stuff.
 
I personally think FFXII has the best combat system of them all. I just wish they make more distinct character roles rather than this jack-of-all-trades thing we all ended up having in XII.

As for the moving and positioning of characters: with XII's battle system the extent of character positioning was giving your healer a ranged weapon so that they can be out of AoE.
What I'd like to see in XIII is something more along the lines of XI, for example the Thief getting behind the enemy for a Sneak Attack, the Paladin standing infront of a mage for Cover etc. While simple, it certainly adds more value to positioning than in XII.

What I'm interested in is how S-E will implement the ally AI if they were to adopt XII's battle system. The Gambit system will undoubtedly be reformed, if not entirely changed. The question is how could they improve it, or what could they put in its place?
 
FFX's battle system was the only thing I actually liked about it. Sped up, smoothed out ATB system FTW.

FFXII's system is "decent". It's revolutionary only to those who've never played a non-Japanese RPG and, if you have half a brain, can easily play itself. If you don't want to go that route, you can input the commands yourself, which is a clunky and awful experience. It's like the ATB system only with all its joints broken and a mouthful of broken glass.
 
Aurora said:
I personally think FFXII has the best combat system of them all. I just wish they make more distinct character roles rather than this jack-of-all-trades thing we all ended up having in XII.
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Yes. You could make distinct classes, but the games rules and damage formulas or so loose that it doesn't even matter. It needed more structure and overall more difficult enemies.
 
Just like Shiva transforming into a motorbike, the other summons in FF13 will also have the same kind of strong partnership with the characters.
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Wow, I totally missed that. Awesome. Lets also have a Cactuar that transforms into a large green pointy airship.
 
Spire said:
If you don't want to go that route, you can input the commands yourself, which is a clunky and awful experience. It's like the ATB system only with all its joints broken and a mouthful of broken glass.
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Yup. This would've been no problem if they just used the action bar and the command input of former installments. Come in range of an enemy, choose whether to fight or not, wait for the bar to fill, choose commands. Done. The system would retain its advantages, mainly being faster, and it would give you back a lot of control. Everything would've had to be rebalanced of course, but that's a given.

Anyway, I'm very curious to find out what they have in mind exactly, when they speak of "the fastest system". Turn-based with instant execution upon command input and very short animations for about anything would be a lot faster than many other systems that have been used previously. It could basically be just a sped up FFX system, with tweaking in other areas.
 
Ryujin said:
Agree 100%. I like my RPG battles to be turn based, it's what I've grown up on, it's what I like and simply put, it's what works. And every turn based system is different so it's not like it's exactly the same in every game. Although obviously like any design choice it has it's flaws. But I honestly believe that turn based is the best choice for the genre.

I mean some people tried to make action RPGs, but the problem with those is that they become mindless and pointless tapping X to perform the same single/3 hit combo over and over and over again....not to mention the stories/world/characters/design normally sucks ass in ARPGs.

Some have tried to go in different directions where they used semi-turn based semi-realtime systems, something like Star Ocean, where this falls flat is that you can only control one character at a time by yourself and thus are left with retarded AI that make me not care about the characters I'm not controlling. And if you can't controll a party of characters...then what's the point in it being an RPG?

Then comes the worst of all....the semi-MMO *shudder*. This is the evil spawn of satan battle system. The one with the least control over anything where you just watch the AI control your characters and every so often you press X or something. Hate...it...so....much.

As for FFX, I liked the quick pace of the battle system and really liked the ability to switch out a character at any time. It really made me use all of my characters instead of just sticking to a few and ignoring the ones I couldn't be bothered using. Now everyone had a use and a chance to be useful, as well as get some EXP.

Although can't say I was a big fan of the Sphere Grid, not that I hated it or anything, just thought it was "OK". As for the rest of FFX...meh...had alot of problems.

The one FF that seems to get the most undeserved hate is FFIX for some reason...was it the "kiddy" look? the time it came out? I just don't get it, especially when there are plenty of FF games out there worthy of hate such as FFVIII, FFX and FFXII (Yeah I said it).

I have no idea what battle system they will make for FFXIII but I pray that it is as far away from FFXII as possible. As long as it is I will be able to enjoy and appreciate the game, if it's anything like FFXII I'll have to pass.
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DAMN. Are you me?

I think FF9 didn't get the spotlight because of it's cartoonish style (please don't say kiddy, it wasn't.)
In the late 90s there was this mode/trend where every RPG should ditch the "hyper-deformed medieval style", that it was outdated. FF9 obviously wasn't taken for what it was.
Ironically enough, there is still alot of "medieval style" RPG out there today...

Just like Shiva transforming into a motorbike
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What the **** is that? I don't remember seeing that in the FF13 video...
I think i just puked a little bit on my keyboard.
 
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