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[iavi]

FFXV's designs got issues, but white-washing isn't one of them

 

[Zenlightened]

They live in a fictional pseudo-European sci-fantasy universe. Assuming they're supposed to look like a certain real-world race because of who is making the game is incredibly racist.


See, kids,you can make anything offend someone for stupid reasons just like this!

 

[PeakPointMatrix]

Whomever is using the term whitewashing to describe the changes made to those models, has no idea what the term means.

 

[notaskwid]

They live in a fictional pseudo-European sci-fantasy universe. Assuming they're supposed to look like a certain real-world race because of who is making the game is incredibly racist.


See, kids,you can make anything offend someone for stupid reasons just like this!

No, while Altissia looks like an European city, Tenebrae (where Noctis is from) is basically Tokyo. It's in no way a "pseudo-European sci-fantasy universe".

 

[Tyaren]

damn this dude is ugly as fuck

Aw...Prompto read your comment.

No, while Altissia looks like an European city, Tenebrae (where Noctis is from) is basically Tokyo. It's in no way a "pseudo-European sci-fantasy universe".

Noctis is from Insomnia, which is based on Shinjuku, Tokyo. Luna is from Tenebrae.

 

[Zenlightened]

No, while Altissia looks like an European city, Tenebrae (where Noctis is from) is basically Tokyo. It's in no way a "pseudo-European sci-fantasy universe".

It's still fictional. None of this matters.

 

[Inuhanyou]

I've never heard any whitewashing in regards to FF15, only Kingsglaive, where i think its a relevant argument

 

[Monocle]

I need a Gladiolus ab comparison before I can decide what I think about this.

That said, the original Prompto looks way better.

 

[notaskwid]

Aw...Prompto read your comment.



Noctis is from Insomnia, which is based on Shinjuku, Tokyo. Luna is from Tenebrae.

Thanks, got the name mixed there.

It's still fictional. None of this matters.

Consistency in designs absolutely matters.

 

[notaskwid]

dp.

 

[MagnaderAlpha]

It's still fictional. None of this matters.

Indeed. Just because Insomnia is modeled after Tokyo doesn't mean it's inhabitants have to all look Japanese. You could argue that Cloud and Tifa have Asian features, but they hail from Nibelheim, a picturesque European-esque village. These are fantasy worlds, that while take inspiration from our own(they have been since FFVII, though older FFs have taken literal names of existing and ancient locations and used them as cities), but creates something unique that is NOT specifically like our world, but stands as its own(in stylistic changes and culture).

 

[Nirolak]

Out of curiosity, for people who feel all the characters look white - especially Noctis - do you also feel the following characters are all or basically all white people?

 

[NoKisum]

Out of curiosity, for people who feel all the characters look white - especially Noctis - do you also feel the following characters are all or basically all white people?

Yodai is clearly a brotha. #DreadHeadsUnite

 

[PeakPointMatrix]

Consistency in designs absolutely matters.

Today I learned that if you're from a country (even a fictional one) you and everyone else from there have to look the same as everyone else so it's consistent. No mixing races allowed!

 

[bobbytkc]

The only character that still looks asian to me is Noctis.

 

[yanipheonu]

It's a Japanese game set in a fantastic universe. Yeah freaking right, whitewashing.

Next you'll tell me anime is whitewashing.

 

[Lights and Waves]

Out of curiosity, for people who feel all the characters look white - especially Noctis - do you also feel the following characters are all or basically all white people?

Eh, I think these drawings are too anime-y to make any calls.

Looking back on Nomura's drawings for FF7 (and even for Dissidia) I'm a bit confused as to why Tifa was given a very distinctively asian face for Advent Children, when her artwork made her seem like an american girl (also hinted at by her cowboy hat and big boobs).

 

[Crossing Eden]

Out of curiosity, for people who feel all the characters look white - especially Noctis - do you also feel the following characters are all or basically all white people?

I feel like racially ambiguous is the correct answer here. Since it's SO stylized that they are straight up caricatures of the human form.

 

[Nirolak]

I'm going to be out for a bit, but I'll put their names (from left to right, bottom to top) here in spoiler tags in the event I'm not back until tomorrow.

Spoiler

Neku Sakuraba
Shiki Misaki
Bitō Raimu
Bīto
Joshua
Uzuki Yashiro
Megumi Kitaniji
Mitsuki Konishi
Yodai Higashizawa
Sho Minamimoto
Koki Kariya

 

[CrimsonSquall]

Eh, I think these drawings are too anime-y to make any calls.

Looking back on Nomura's drawings for FF7 (and even for Dissidia) I'm a bit confused as to why Tifa was given a very distinctively asian face for Advent Children, when her artwork made her seem like an american girl (also hinted at by her cowboy hat and big boobs).

Big boobs hints you're American???

 

[notaskwid]

Today I learned that if you're from a country (even a fictional one) you and everyone else from there have to look the same as everyone else so it's consistent. No mixing races allowed!

Yeah, that's not what I meant at all. The character design should be tonally consistent with their environment, no only in physical features but also in garments, if not I expect to know why is that. Not just have, as an hyperbolic example, a fat arabic man as Noctis bodyguard wearing a bright yellow spandex suit for the hell of it.

 

[Cynar]

Both of those characters still look perfectly Japanese. I don't see the problem.

If one thinks all Asians have jet black hair, yellow skin, and tiny almond slit eyes, or that we all have to look anime as hell well all I can say is that we don't and stop being racist.

These character models look significantly better than the weeaboo versions.

Well said. Still look Japanese to me as well.

 

[Ragnorok64]

Big boobs hints you're American???

Yes.

 

[CrimsonSquall]

Yes.

Explain

 

[Chuck Norris]

Out of curiosity, for people who feel all the characters look white - especially Noctis - do you also feel the following characters are all or basically all white people?

They are anime people. They don't look like any particular race

 

[NCR Redslayer]

Found whitey.

The guy with the skull cap? I would have never guessed.

Explain

Its a trope in mangas and anime. It also goes hand in hand with "blonde? Must be american."

 

[Fuu]

old prompto was awful.

For instance, Gladio's father

noooo. rip final fantasy john glover.

 

[Rappy]

I feel like racially ambiguous is the correct answer here. Since it's SO stylized that they are straight up caricatures of the human form.

And the same can be said for most of the characters in FFXV (the game) to some degree. Which a lot of people don't seem to be getting. You'd likely be hard pressed to find a Japanese woman or any woman that looks exactly like game Luna without heavy makeup or plastic surgery.

I'm going to be out for a bit, but I'll put their names (from left to right, bottom to top) here in spoiler tags in the event I'm not back until tomorrow.

Spoiler

Neku Sakuraba
Shiki Misaki
Bitō Raimu
Bīto
Joshua
Uzuki Yashiro
Megumi Kitaniji
Mitsuki Konishi
Yodai Higashizawa
Sho Minamimoto
Koki Kariya

Not sure what you're getting at. Names don't really say much for something so stylized. But beyond that, are you telling me Mitsuki Konishi is full-blooded Japanese? The answer that is probably yes. The game is set in Japan it is more likely that she is full Japanese rather than of European descent and had changed her name completely. The characters, however, are so stylized that the only features that would possibly indicative of ethnicity is hair color, skin color, and eye color. Now in reality, there's more to it than just those 3 features but how many Japanese have you seen with blonde and gray/blue eyes?

Big boobs hints you're American???

It's a stereotype in Japan that Western women have larger bust sizes, so yes.

Well said. Still look Japanese to me as well.

How was that well said at all? Show me any full-blooded Japanese or any Asian person that is naturally blue-eyed and blonde like Prompto. I mean, I'm Asian and we don't all look alike...but let's not get ahead of ourselves.

 

[mnemonicj]

Good topic.

This article from a few months back discusses whitewashing and how japanese people do not really view anime characters as japanese in origin: http://www.theverge.com/2016/5/9/11612530/ghost-in-the-shell-anime-asian-representation-hollywood

I always thought that japanese animators drew based on what their society thinks "perfect" appearances should look like and not necessarily how japanese actually look like. But I'd be lying if I said that I never thought anime characters were actually japanese.

 

[Ragnorok64]

Explain

I was hoping to find a nice list of examples, but it's way too late for that. There is definitely a tendency for foreigners or those with foreign heritage, in anime and manga, to be depicted as blond, blue eyed, and/or busty.

American

Undetermined but not fully Japanese

Americans compare to a Japanese girl from the same source

 

[Cynar]

And the same can be said for most of the characters in FFXV (the game) to some degree. Which a lot of people don't seem to be getting. You'd likely be hard pressed to find a Japanese woman or any woman that looks exactly like game Luna without heavy makeup or plastic surgery.

Not sure what you're getting at. Names don't really say much for something so stylized. But beyond that, are you telling me Mitsuki Konishi is full-blooded Japanese? The answer that is probably yes. The game is set in Japan it is more likely that she is full Japanese rather than of European descent and had changed her name completely. The characters, however, are so stylized that the only features that would possibly indicative of ethnicity is hair color, skin color, and eye color. Now in reality, there's more to it than just those 3 features but how many Japanese have you seen with blonde and gray/blue eyes?

It's a stereotype in Japan that Western women have larger bust sizes, so yes.

How was that well said at all? Show me any full-blooded Japanese or any Asian person that is naturally blue-eyed and blonde like Prompto. I mean, I'm Asian and we don't all look alike...but let's not get ahead of ourselves.

You want to not get ahead of ourselves? Fine. I suppose we can't even claim they are Asian or whitewashed since it's a fictional universe that the designers intended it to be. So please stop getting ahead of ourselves.

 

[UnemployedVillain]

I was hoping to find a nice list of examples, but it's way too late for that. There is definitely a tendency for foreigners or those with foreign heritage, in anime and manga, to be depicted as blond, blue eyed, and/or busty.

Except all those characters are also given different mannerisms, speech patterns, or were outright said to be foreign. It wasn't solely big boobs or blond hair.

Not to mention TONS of people in Japan, at least Tokyo have dyed hair. I don't know why people assume a character with a hair color automatically means it's their natural color.

 

[plasmawave]

Big boobs hints you're American???

Hitomi Tanaka is American, bro.

 

[TatteredHat]

I'm sorry, but I'm not seeing it here. They obviously changed the models but they still read as asian.

 

[plasmawave]

Also I want to see the source for this whitewasing complaints.

 

[Ragnorok64]

Except all those characters are also given different mannerisms, speech patterns, or were outright said to be foreign. It wasn't solely big boobs or blond hair.

Not to mention TONS of people in Japan, at least Tokyo have dyed hair. I don't know why people assume a character with a hair color automatically means it's their natural color.

I'm not even sure what the argument is here. At no point did I say those traits alone indicate that a character is foreign. I just asserted that there is a tendency for foreign characters to be given those traits. Obviously there are a number of traits that define characters in fiction in addition to their appearance.

What are you even arguing against?

 

[Nirolak]

Okay, since people don't like anime characters as examples, how about the ethnicity of these two women?

 

[Rappy]

You want to not get ahead of ourselves? Fine. I suppose we can't even claim they are Asian or whitewashed since it's a fictional universe that the designers intended it to be. So please stop getting ahead of ourselves.

Well technically, yeah, we can't call them Asian as Asia doesn't even exist in their world. You can call them "Asian-looking". But do you seriously believe Prompto looks Japanese?

Except all those characters are also given different mannerisms, speech patterns, or were outright said to be foreign. It wasn't solely big boobs or blond hair.

Not to mention TONS of people in Japan, at least Tokyo have dyed hair. I don't know why people assume a character with a hair color automatically means it's their natural color.

It isn't always solely just big boobs and blonde hair but it's usually part of the stereotype. But we do know it is Prompto's natural hair color.

Hitomi Tanaka is American, bro.

The stereotype does not say no other ethnicities can have big boobs. The guy was also coupling the big boobs with the cowboy hat.

Okay, since people don't like anime characters as examples, how about the ethnicity of these two women?

They're both Olivia Munn, but she's mixed and looks mixed (even if I didn't know who it was) so you can't call her strictly Asian or Caucasian.

 

[N.Domixis]

Okay, since people don't like anime characters as examples, how about the ethnicity of these two women?

aren't these the same person, one is just younger without makeup?

 

[Nirolak]

aren't these the same person, one is just younger without makeup?

Yes, but even a small amount of make-up accentuates decidedly different racial traits.

Here are some actual posts from when she was cast as Psylocke:

She's hot, but isn't Psylocke asian?

It's literally mind blowing how much more Asian and better,(like all women who don't wear make-up,) she looks without make-up

 

[hurricanes]

aren't these the same person, one is just younger without makeup?

NeoGAF redefine no make up...

On topic: I don't think they whitewash them since most the changed characters look western to begin with. I do think that these change make most of them look worse.

 

[Rappy]

NeoGAF redefine no make up...

I was also gonna bring this up earlier but didn't. But yeah, she's likely wearing the same amount of makeup(but it's not only about how much but also how it is applied). The age, lighting, and facial expression likely add more to the discrepancy than the makeup.

 

[oimori]

At least, Nomura hadn't think about race when he drew them. He just tried to make cool character for him.

 

[i-Jest]

I don't know what the Regis examples are showing me as the previous version doesn't look Asian at all.

Noctis and Prompto...I guess? A little? They aren't supposed to be Japanese, though, they are from a fantasy world, so whatever Japanese concept designers want to do is fine with me.

This is pretty much me right now.

 

[Crossing Eden]

Also I want to see the source for this whitewasing complaints.

Linked a source several pages ago. Not the only one who noticed this either.

Yes, but even a small amount of make-up accentuates decidedly different racial traits.

Here are some actual posts from when she was cast as Psylocke:

Recently Faith, (ME), and Dr.Anders(HW2) were considered less asian by some because they were cast by Faye Kingslee.

 

[Ragnorok64]

Linked a source several pages ago. Not the only one who noticed this either...

The link I saw on page two just seemed like a couple randos on GAF arguing. Not exactly a large enough contingent of people to really consider making a thread alleging that there's "accusations" of whitewashing.

 

[NoctisVsStar]

They're both Olivia Munn, but she's mixed and looks mixed (even if I didn't know who it was) so you can't call her strictly Asian or Caucasian.

Munn looks more Latina than Asian or Caucasian tho for me at least.

 

[DarkConfidant]

I guess I didn't notice the changes much, since most Final Fantasy characters seem pretty white all the time, including these ones.

It always confused me why they never have had Japanese looking characters in these Japanese games.

 

[DarkConfidant]

Found whitey.

Lol, I thought they were all white. They look like some white people I might have met some time in college.
I guess it was just Josh. It's always Josh.

 

[Crossing Eden]

I guess I didn't notice the changes much, since most Final Fantasy characters seem pretty white all the time, including these ones.

It always confused me why they never have had Japanese looking characters in these Japanese games.

Someone gave some good context as to why.

It's a few things:

A) The cultural factors that have resulted in many Americans demanding that the racial makeup of popular media such as games and movies match the racial makeup of the population doesn't exist in Japan. A monoracial culture just isn't going to look at race through the same lens as a place like America, which has sizable populations of every skin color in God's crayon box, most of which have various histories of being treated unfairly. Nobody in Japan is going to give a shit if a game or movie or whatever made in Japan doesn't have anybody who looks Japanese, because they're obviously not going to see it as an offense to their race or culture.

B) Unlike modern American games which tend to have their roots in live-action movies/shows (Uncharted,) history (Assassin's Creed,) the present day (GTA,) and occasionally novels (basically every WRPG,) Japanese games usually have their roots in manga and anime, and even games that go for relatively realistic styles like modern Final Fantasies aren't going to shake off that influence entirely.

C) For this game in particular, the setting is very clearly based on western culture, so characters that look more European than Asian makes sense.