He looks ridiculous, and is the only character wearing leather from head to toe. I swapped his costume asap.
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FFXV character designer Roberto Ferrari comments on his creations on Facebook
- Thread starter Ganon Dragmire
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He looks ridiculous, and is the only character wearing leather from head to toe. I swapped his costume asap.
Maybe you could read like a little of the thread?
FlutterPuffs
Member
Theres a huge difference between the fanservice of Gladio and Cindy.
And this is coming from a guy who thinks Cindy was alright in the game.
It's the same thing.
Just read the last two pages and it was already annoying, sexualized characters exits on all medias ( Movies, books, video games, tv shows etc... ) it's not something new, it pleased both gender and especially teenagers/young men/women, boobs are fine, male chest are fine too, they're fictional characters that are super model, that's it.
Dark_castle
Junior Member
I'm one of those who hated Cindy's design, and this is my thoughts on Gladio.
How many men are sexualized in video games, compared to how many women?
Yeah, same for me. Basically they both look stupid.
if you consider secondary sexual traits well, they aren't just a few bunch.
because wide broad shoulder and being tall and muscular are usually dismissed, but they are sexual traits
"Who goes around with" isn't a good point to make.
Who goes trekking in the desert in leather clothes and rigid designer shoes? Final Fantasy characters do.
Not that I'm in love with Gladio's character design (let alone Cindy's) but tackling this from the usual "practicality angle" is so misguided and fruitless.
These designs are meant to look cool and stylish.
Now, to some people (especially due to the cultural gap) they may very well end up looking just stupid and dumb, but being practical was never really in the cards, and tackling these designs from that angle, is like asking about the practical usefulness of jewelry, you're asking the wrong question and getting the wrong answers.
I've said it a million times, but I'll say it once more, this is a political problem.
It's not about practicality, it's not about design, it's not about being "perverts" (smh), it's a political (or socio-political) problem.
Nothing more, nothing less.
Trying to frame it as anything else is just disingenuous and wasteful.
Nothing wrong with discussing this stuff from a purely political angle, either, I guess some people see that as having less value for some reason, but that's nonsense.
I would say it's the other way around.
Almost all of them ? Video games are aimed to straight young/middle age men, it's natural to have more sexualized women characters than men, the same way girly movies have hot naked men in them, it doesn't change the fact that all protagonist, men or female are very hot in video games because people don't want to play standard/ugly people, I don't want to personally.
They're fictional characters in a fictional world, we don't have to follow any logic that implies to our world.
I'm not sure they are anymore, the gender split is almost 50/50 these days. Aiming games at straight men is a bit tone deaf and willingly ignores a huge market. It's not the 90's anymore.
http://www.polygon.com/2015/11/4/9669110/pew-research-center-female-gamers-statistics
All characters are attractive yeah, but men aren't sexualised in the same way women are. That may be because women don't find overly sexualised men sexy (or do they? I only speak for myself, give me Joel anyday). I don't know it's getting into gender psychology now. I'm no expert.
Well then we'd have to include the female stereotypes. Luna and Iris would also classify as sexualized because they are character types that are written and characterized specifically to pander to males (the Perfect Waifu and the Little Sister). In that case, then there's no question that female sexualization is far beyond the amount of male sexualization.
So in that sense it would be okay to have racist caricatures in video games, because they're fictional characters in fictional worlds, is that right? Or are you going to turn around and tell me it's totally different, racism is not okay, but sexism is?
Moreover, you are admitting there is inequality between the presentation of females compared to males in games. If that's the case, then what is the problem with criticism against this inequality? Why are you whining about this criticism?
I also don't know why the word I used (sexualized) got turned into 'serialized' in your post. Your autocorrect is overzealous.
FlutterPuffs
Member
No, not really. Gladiolus' design is far less fanservice-ey than Cindy. One has her underwear popping out, with a pink bra to ascentuate her breasts. The other is wearing a leather jacket with no shirt, and that's it.
Gold_Loot
Member
In all fairness. Men and women find different aspects of the opposite sex attractive.
Women like big fluffy eyes , nice hair, and a toned core. I doubt many women care about seeing gladiolus's undergarment band.
FlutterPuffs
Member
I get this, which why in another thread I wish more women will join these kinds of conversations. There's only so much I can discuss about fanservice when looking at abs doesnt do anything for me but the sight of tits will automatically make my eyebrows rise.
My opinion on both is, I find Gladiolus' fanservice as acceptable but Cindy's was too much.
Woman here,
I do not find Gladio remotely attractive or sexy, because he looks too try hard, and his outfit is silly. He is a sexualised character that does nothing for me, but I asked in another thread and was told his look is more appealing to a younger Japanese female demographic. So he isn't aimed at me either. If people are into his look then fair enough, to each their own.
I prefer men to look a bit rugged, Aragorn in LotR is a good example. Plenty of women get a bit swoony for him. I don't think a Final Fantasy male is ever going to be aimed at me.
FlutterPuffs
Member
Thats fine, Cindy didnt do anything for me either.
I was actually find the female NPCs at Lestallum more attractive. Love their outfit.
To be fair, the main characters archetypes are pulled straight from japanese Shojo mangas and Boy Bands (typically aimed at women).
You have Gladio as the rought but caring Elder-brother type, Prompto as the clueless one that gets in trouble, Ignis as the cold calculating (bespectacled no less!) one and Noctis being the carefree leader of the group. You could take all 4 characters, switch them with the leads of Ouran High (a shojo manga/anime) and no one would know the difference!
In that sense, I find FFXV to be providing fan-service with a surprising amount of equality.
What I do think there's a problem with is the characterization required to lift the characters above their archetypes. Now I have not yet completed the game but I'm fairly certain from the comments and reviews I've seen, that the female characters (both main and secondary) don't get much in the way of development and in that sense I can certainly understand the anger since the main characters do get the development required to lift them above their established tropes and it's a damn shame they didn't do that for the female cast.
We also have to understand that, for better or worse, this is a game developed by japanese people with japanese sensibilites.
Dundar
Member
Read a bit of Roberto Ferrari's Facebook page (italian here), and I must admit he sounds like a really awesome fellow. A down to earth, simple dude, with lots of passion for what he's doing.
Regardless, the story of the development of FFVX really appears to be shaky, at the very least. Saying outright that "they are disorganized" and that the storyline kept being rewritten every 3 months is really something.
Regardless, the story of the development of FFVX really appears to be shaky, at the very least. Saying outright that "they are disorganized" and that the storyline kept being rewritten every 3 months is really something.
DiipuSurotu
Banned
I don't think it's that simple. For years now FF directors and producers have repeatedly claimed in interviews that they want to also appeal to Western sensibilities.
Plus, Roberto Ferrari is Italian.
I think when devs try to make characters sexy they tend to go for the most obvious option, basically T and A. I have no problem with sexy characters, but when they are so blatantly designed to be sexy, I find it quite off putting.
Not every man is going to be into someone like Cindy, just like every woman won't like Gladio. There are a whole range of tastes across both genders that get pretty much ignored. Characters like Cindy and Gladio just seem lazy to me. But that's my personal taste, many may find them hot I don't know.
Speaking as a straight woman, I find Yennefer incredibly hot.
I think it is, you can see the japanese sensibilites everywhere in this game. Yes, people from other nationalities certainly worked on it but the fact remains that the game was both written and directed entirely by Japanese people. Ferrari is Italian, yes, but the characters still need to be vetoed by the Japanese director.
For what its worth I do believe they are trying to broaden their appeal and are sincere in their attempt to appeal to Western "sensibilities" as you mention. I visited Japan for the first time last month and after my trip I'm starting to understand why they have so much trouble adjusting to western tastes.
Lunafreya Nox Fleuret
Member
Gladio isn't as blatant as Cindy or in your face though isn't he?
Dark_castle
Junior Member
But what if I tell you that 'cool and stylish' design is not mutually exclusive to looking practical? There are plenty of video game characters who looked cool and stylish, many in their own unique ways and yet what they wear are still reasonably practical and doesn't make me scratch my heads thinking what the designer were smoking when drawing the character in the outfit. I mean, you are right, questioning why these characters wear like they do often seems like a futile effort, because JRPG characters, especially from FF series have a tendency to wear inefficiently or bizarrely or stupidly, but how the character (male or female regardless) is being sexualized in a dumb, try-hard way is where I personally start to draw the line.
I think there's no question Gladio is sexualized. Like Cindy, he also has basically no character arc. He's not a great case, frankly. There are, though, plenty of "normal" male characters in the game and there is...like maybe 1 female character in the game that you'd say dresses casually and has a clearly defined personality and internal logic that makes sense? The scale seems way off to me and it's noticeable.
I mean even the NPCs walking around are wearing Borat bikinis.
The game is just really poor with female characters. It's not to say I don't like the game. I think the story is absolutely busted but it's a fun game! I just thought it was noticeable how a series which so many strong female characters (and a lot of weak ones) really totally whiffed.
I mean even the NPCs walking around are wearing Borat bikinis.
The game is just really poor with female characters. It's not to say I don't like the game. I think the story is absolutely busted but it's a fun game! I just thought it was noticeable how a series which so many strong female characters (and a lot of weak ones) really totally whiffed.
I'd tell you that practicality is just another design elements that may or may not apply depending on the design code of the larger piece, not inherent added value.
Designing Last of Us characters, practicality applies.
Designing Final Fantasy ones, it doesn't as much.
Designing Asura's Wrath ones, it doesn't apply at all.
Practicality isn't a design virtue in absolute terms, it is only in specific circumstances where it is needed.
Besides, the argument about practicality is always applied in very convenient and arbitrary terms.
People praising Dark Souls for its practical and realistic Armors, clearly have no idea how real armors and weapons worked, but they looks cool and aren't politically problematic, so this virtue gets attached to it.
That said, it's fine to say that you don't like a design because it doesn't make sense to you, just dont try to bring that argument forward as a very solidly objective one, because the appeal to practicality is often a ridiculous one and crumbles under very little scrutiny.
I'd prefer to read a more honest: "I don't like this for subjective reasons AND I find it offensive or problematic for political ones."
I'd say Cindy falls under the umbrella for me, for example.
I think it's ugly and politically questionable, I don't care if it's the attire a mechanic would find useful in the real world, because it wouldn't change much if it was, for me.
Several of his other designs I just find ugly and confusing (Ardyn) without the political baggage.
I don't even know what to say tbh
Lights and Waves
Member
This. I'm so sick of this false equivalence bullshit. People really like to argue that "omg men are being objectified too!!!!!!"
Fuck outta here with that nonsense. Cindy's design is a disgrace.
DarkLordMalik
Member
Have to agree that I don't find any appeal in Gladio, speaking as a straight male.
Older Noctis though, I loved his design and found him appealing. Probably my favorite FF main hero design.
Dark_castle
Junior Member
On one hand, I do see where you're coming from. On the other, I just find practicality in the character design to be a very strong factor in deciding the appeal of the design to me. Note that I don't need practicality in the crudest sense, like the character should wear very modest and not showing any skin or anything, like how you suggested that I'm making the criticism based on what's considered politically correct and what not. That's really not the case here. I'm ALL for characters being sexy and owning it. What I'm not a fan of is the designer sacrificing any sense of reason why the character would ever choose to dress like he/she does in favor of just whoring them out. Again, sexy is not a bad thing. A character can still look blatantly sexy but outfit not being completely nonsensical or silly. For instance
Jessica from DQVIII. I think she's smoking hot, most straight men or lesbians can agree. But what she wears is not very far-fetched and unthinkable. Now that to me is a great design that really shows the sex appeal of a character without over-doing it. Oh and furthermore, in Jessica's case, she actually flirts in combat and helps out in gameplay, so choosing to have some revealing outfit makes even more sense and practicality here. Bonus points.
so you like realistic dresses. that has no place in most of japanese games, they just loooove nosensical design. i'm kind on the side of "who cares about practicality, go nuts".
in jessica's case, if you asked me what is she wearing without looking at the pic i'll probably be unable to give you a detailed answer, while i can tell you what is seymour wearing
Who could forget this creation?
It's the same shape as Jessica's and still nuts. It's also not over the top in terms of flesh on display, which I think is the point Dark_castle was making. It definitely qualifies as fan service too.
I wasn't implying anything about "political correctness", not intentionally anyway.On one hand, I do see where you're coming from. On the other, I just find practicality in the character design to be a very strong factor in deciding the appeal of the design to me. Note that I don't need practicality in the crudest sense, like the character should wear very modest and not showing any skin or anything, like how you suggested that I'm making the criticism based on what's considered politically correct and what not. That's really not the case here. I'm ALL for characters being sexy and owning it. What I'm not a fan of is the designer sacrificing any sense of reason why the character would ever choose to dress like he/she does in favor of just whoring them out. Again, sexy is not a bad thing. A character can still look blatantly sexy but outfit not being completely nonsensical or silly. For instance
Jessica from DQVIII. I think she's smoking hot, most straight men or lesbians can agree. But what she wears is not very far-fetched and unthinkable. Now that to me is a great design that really shows the sex appeal of a character without over-doing it. Oh and furthermore, in Jessica's case, she actually flirts in combat and helps out in gameplay, so choosing to have some revealing outfit makes even more sense and practicality here. Bonus points.
When I talked about arbitrary convenience I meant in a larger sense, fitting ones agenda beyond the political, and even covering what is ultimately subjective taste (which goes well beyond sexualization and politically charged themes).
As for the "sexy" stuff, I've argued about this till nausea since this became a central topic of conversation on GAF in, like, 2012, and I feel like I've said everything I had to, on the subject, multiple times.
Condensed, my opinion is: an artist is free to do whatever they want, and a customer is free to voice their opinion (ideally in a civil manner, but that's another story) and boycott if they see fit.
To me, sexyness itself is not a deal breaker nor a selling point, it depends on context and many other factors, so many that I don't see a point in trying to distill them in a sentence.
I find Quiet stupid, I love 2b from Nier Automata, both sexualized.
Neither makes much more sense than the other in political terms (as in, neither is some clever twist on gender politics) though I would argue one is more tonally consistent than the other stylistically (that's a whole debate though).
I understand and am perfectly fine with others finding both amazing or both shit, both on a subjective and political level.
But I won't sit here try to argue how the heels in 2b do or do not make sense for her fighting style, it's an absurd discussion to have, much like arguing where the carburator of an XWing is and how does it function.
They look great, they enhance her silhouette, and that's why they were a good design choice in my opinion, political baggage and all.
Hopefully I made myself more clear.
FlutterPuffs
Member
Haha, my wife liked Yennefer so much that she forbid me with trying anything with Trish.
Your wife is wise, I found Triss a bit of a wet blanket tbh. As soon as Yennefer appeared on screen I knew I liked her. She's someone to admire, but I don't think I could be friends with someone like her. It would be hard work. Most other women I've spoken too seem to like Yennefer. Plus she essentially has the same name as me, that doesn't hurt lol.
FlutterPuffs
Member
He's right. However I'm sure they did that after the backlash after she was revealed.
Remember that her boobs jiggled so much before that Tabata asked his team to tone it down.
Just curious, what about Geralt?
Honestly, I'm of the idea that in this context we may as well consider him Japanese. He grew up watching '70s anime, moved to Japan when he was still rather young, and it's there he matured as an artist. I think his artistic sensibilities (in character design at least) are as "Japanese" as they can get.
formasymphonic
Member
Plot twist: The human character Umbra turns into is Cor. Thats why we don't see Cor for the rest of the game - he's to busy in dog mode handling shit behind the scenes.
This is also why they call him immortal - because... something something... time travel yet never seems to age from every one else's perspective.
This is also why they call him immortal - because... something something... time travel yet never seems to age from every one else's perspective.
Vlaphor
Member
Cindy really needs proper boob physics. It looks like she got some cheap bolt-ons. They only move when she quickly spins around and stops and it just looks bad.
Other than that, IMO, Cindy is perfect.
Zoe
Member
That's really my biggest problem with her too. There's no gravity going on.
Yeah I quite like Geralt, but only with facial hair!
That annoyed me as well, no woman with real boobs looks like that in a string bikini, it is physically impossible.
Laughing Banana
Weeping Pickle
Well Uhhh... The very first scene has us squarely staring at his buttocks as he pushed the car.
DiipuSurotu
Banned
Ferrari gave an official interview to an Italian website, Akiba Gamers:
http://www.akibagamers.it/26-12-2016/intervista-roberto-ferrari-character-designer-final-fantasy-xv/
Google translation:
http://www.akibagamers.it/26-12-2016/intervista-roberto-ferrari-character-designer-final-fantasy-xv/
Google translation:
When you decided to become a character designer? What was the main source of inspiration that made you think "I want to do this work"?
Well, it was not such a linear thing, but remember when as a child I saw for the first time of Japanese cartoons airing on television, I felt a strong emotion and thought it to be great I wanted to do just that stuff there. It was 1978, and I was about eight. As a natural evolution, growing up, I started drawing comics, because it is one of those forms of art that can be molded with a few simple materials, you can just a pen and some paper to tell a story ... Of course, in my heart I wanted to become an animator, but then in my country there was this kind of culture and did not know any Italian animator.
twenties became, fate and some fortuitous coincidence would have it, following the realization of a comic I could win a scholarship to Japan (I have to thank the publishing house Kodansha, specifically the Takenaka Ms), thanks to which I could study a few months in the drafting of the Morning magazine.
Following the publication of two of my illustrations, right on Morning, I received a call in the newsroom by Mr. Ippei Kuri, director of Tatsunoko Production, who told me he was interested in my work and wanted me to work for his company. I do not have jumped at the chance and decided to embark on this adventure. Back in Italy, I got the visa at the Japanese Embassy and returned to Japan with a regular work visa. It was February 1997.
Times change, and too dumb with them; slowly I began to feel a deep interest in video games, not so much as a gaming experience, but as a chance to create new original worlds. Mind you, even in animation that is possible, but I began to consider 3D as the near future, as even the animation world was evolving in the same direction.
In 2001 I left the Tatsunoko and switched to the NAMCO. Subsequently, in 2006, I tried to get into that that of all the production companies of video games considered to be the top in the industry for its easy recognition. Of course I am talking of SQUARE ENIX.
What is the franchise on which you have preferred to work in the course of your career? And why?
I really think both the Final Fantasy XV, not because it came out recently, but because I finally was able to work with Mr. Nomura in an important and leading role. With Mr. Nomura I felt respected artistically, and it was the first time since I live in this country. I sensed his deep confidence in myself and in my ability. It's hard to explain, but before then I felt just exploited.
Do you consider yourself a gamer? What are your favorite games? You still have some free time in which you dedicate yourself to play for inspiration?
I have never been nor will ever become a player, I did not really have time ... But I am always informed about new releases and not lose a single PV. Being an industry increasingly look at the technical side of things that I see, and if my game I like for the sets, there is another that I like instead for innovations, techniques and so on solutions.
There is some series or franchise on which you like to work? Something you love?
I'd like to work on Kingdom Hearts because it has no realistic graphics.
We look at the character of the historic design FINAL FANTASY series. Personally, I prefer deformed style, that more souls such as FINAL FANTASY VII and FINAL FANTASY IX, or something more realistic like Final Fantasy VIII and Final Fantasy X?
I like all these titles listed because they are recognizable. I can only reiterate that I do not like things too realistic, especially the characters, because when it pursues realism the result is, many times, a product of which there are many, and this is to the detriment of originality. Certainly that's a pretty sight, but I prefer a product that is identifiable at first glance.
It's very different working in a company like Tatsunoko, specializing in animation, rather than in the games industry? What will change in terms of production?
It's very different. The first approach to the world of video games has been impressive; I thought they were very disorganized. For a project of a video game move an innumerable amount of people and operated the first gear, slowly, over time things are settling. What struck me most is that we move even before he catalyzed the story. During construction then, many things are changing, and changing characters are lost, stage and so on. In the animation, because of the tight deadlines, you do not have all this luxury ... I really can say that they are necessarily more organized.
It is now quite a lot 'of time that you moved to Japan to realize your dream. In all this time, have you ever missed Italy in some way, such as for food or some special places?
I miss my family, of course, the sea and the Tyrrhenian coast. See the sun set over the Mediterranean Sea is very rasserenerante and warms the soul. Not that here in Japan there are just as charming places, but since I've been in Tokyo I do is work ... I miss that constructive and stimulating free time I had in Italy.
Many Italians would like to move to Japan to live and work, but some of these have abandoned the dream of moving to the place they love. What would you suggest to your younger compatriots who are seeking career in Rising Sun? Is it really possible for Italians become the industry of Japan as you did?
When you have a dream to realize you can not waver, and we can not look back. Certainly live abroad is not a simple thing, but one must look inward to decide calmly what you want to truly get from their lives. The difficulties have never been higher than my dream.
After ten years of development, at last Final Fantasy XV was released worldwide. What would you say to the Italian players who are playing there or that we will play?
Well, do not overdo it, I was in the team from May of 2010 to the end of 2013. To all those who will begin to play with FFXV let me say this: if you during your adventure you ever run into an ambiguous and sinister figure, say maybe most Italian of all the characters (it will be because it is my creature?) I do not trust him, please!
Seriously, all the staff gave the best of themselves, and I firmly believe that you can live a fantastic adventure accompagnado Prince Noctis to maturity of his own conscience.
Prince of Space
Banned
please let Ferrari design the characters in 16, SE. thank you
Ultimadrago
Member
I would not be against this. My major issues with the game itself aside, they are the best across-board character designs I've seen in Final Fantasy for a while. Nomura did a fine job on the brothers' designs as well.