Support NeoGAF

[Dark Schala]

Final Fantasy XIII was hard?

I don't think I died once...

Did a Gui cast Ultima x 4 on you?

Because it did that to me.

Twice.

It was awesome. Beating Attacus and Vercingetorix legit with several different strategies, with Tier-1s, unmaxed Crystarium, and sans equipment makes for some fun too.

What's funny about this is that my friends said I'd be the last person to defend anything about FF13. >.>

Thanks. I actually understand your complaints.

About the Fire, Flamestrike thing, yeah, it bothered me too when it started doing it but it is kind if smart when you think about it because the flamestrike attack actually maintains AND boosts the stagger meter. The AI just sort of balance it. One spell (fire) that boosts and one attack that half boosts half maintains it. Sounds a little silly if you consider that you have another party member on COM already doing that job, but still, you can't blame the AI, it does seem kind of a clever idea, to me at least. About the animation time though, I can't say you are wrong. Thunder is really the one to use when you want to build meter in those cases you mentioned.

But like you said, if you have a Com/Sab you don't need to have the spell, -strike, spell, -strike. It makes little sense and I can't believe they didn't modify it. It's much slower to go with the alternating pattern because you need to cast the slow-ass fire spell and have it fly, run up to the enemy and stick a knife in it, cast the spell at a closer distance, animate to stick your knife in it, make sure that the enemy isn't interrupting your spell animations, etc.

Their method of trying to maintain the stagger meter doesn't play into the concept of Command Synergy Battle to me. >.>

 

[DJIzana]

Did you do the side quests?

Fought A Long Gui? There is no way you didn't die.

I grinded in advance.

Did a Gui cast Ultima x 4 on you?

Because it did that to me.

No, didn't happen to me actually.

 

[DY_nasty]

I mean... its no SMT game by any means, but it was definitely harder than post ff7 ffs like dude said

 

[Kagari]

People complained it was hard... then they added an easy mode patch... then XIII-2 was too easy on normal.

This is the flaw of listening to feedback too much.

 

[Kesagiri]

Auto-battle does so much wrong it's ridiculous and the only reason they implemented it in there is to make battles look pretty and for people to not think twice about what implications selecting certain attacks in one go would do but the problem with it is that it doesn't do anything efficiently or fast because it doesn't take animation speeds into consideration and it prioritizes stuff on a stupid basis sometimes particularly when you are buffing and debuffing

I don't like it at all. I personally think it makes things slower and less efficient.

This x1000. Auto-battle actually got in the way of my enjoyment of the battle system initially. Then I figured it out.

They may have nice designs (at least some of them) but their motivations are terribly bland.
snip

As a fan of the game, my least favorite part was the writing. The world, mythology, art design, visuals, and battle system are pretty solid imo. If the writing and set pieces were at least at the same level as FFVI, and if there was more to explore than bits of Pulse, it'd be my favorite FF. I like Lightning because of her character design and being a strong female lead that isn't over-sexualized (which is rare in the industry). I also like how they didn't force her into a romance. Basically she's a character with a lot of potential that was wasted on Toriyama.

 

[DY_nasty]

I grinded in advance.

Grind all you want. Unless you've got the amazingly rare drop from a Long Gui - you aren't just chilling while one drops Ultima combos on you. Even the more tame hunts got ridiculous.

Also, even if you only want to talk about the main story, space pope was fucking up all sorts of people. Grinding would push you through any PS1 FF before, but unless you actually had a basic grasp of how to take advantage of the combat system, you were going to take an L. You couldn't just buy the best equipment and nuke bosses in XIII.

 

[Esura]

LOL, I thought you was supposed to use Auto Battle cause the fights go so fast. I dunno if I could actually play without auto battle unless the battle speed slows down slightly.

Oh, that pairing. Everyone (and a few people I know) seems to looooove it. I bet Lightning shared her alcohol with him.

I still maintain that he saw her as a mother-figure substitute, and she saw him as kind of a younger sibling, but w/e. Hope's old now. He could probably win her heart somehow.

I would like that but its not possible after FFXIII-2.

 

[LuuKyK]

Did a Gui cast Ultima x 4 on you?

Because it did that to me.

Twice.

It was awesome. Beating Attacus and Vercingetorix legit with several different strategies, with Tier-1s, unmaxed Crystarium, and sans equipment makes for some fun too.

What's funny about this is that my friends said I'd be the last person to defend anything about FF13. >.>


But like you said, if you have a Com/Sab you don't need to have the spell, -strike, spell, -strike. It makes little sense and I can't believe they didn't modify it. It's much slower to go with the alternating pattern because you need to cast the slow-ass fire spell and have it fly, run up to the enemy and stick a knife in it, cast the spell at a closer distance, animate to stick your knife in it, make sure that the enemy isn't interrupting your spell animations, etc.

Their method of trying to maintain the stagger meter doesn't play into the concept of Command Synergy Battle to me. >.>

Yeah it is kind of a weird choice really, I have to agree.

I grinded in advance.

Well thats sad then, because I grinded a lot too and still died a lot. :|

 

[King of the Potato People]

Don't you guys all remember the awesome CG with the lake that froze at the beginning? My jaw dropped.

Can you please tell me why you don't like them? I like the characters (or at least I don't hate them) but everyone seems to hate them. Same for the story.

Lightning = Moody
Snow = Arrogant
Vanille = Coconut
Hope = Whiny

...

Sazh and Fang are all right.

 

[Airgetlam]

Final Fantasy XIII was hard?

I don't think I died once...

I thought it was hard. I remember some of the boss battles took me 30 minutes to beat. And sometimes I would lose because of doom which made me sad since I just wasted 30 minutes of my life. lol.

But then I discovered the wonders of the saboteur and the game became instantly easier.

 

[LuuKyK]

Vanille = Coconut

lol what?

 

[HawthorneKitty]

The only thing I really hated about XIII is the weapon level up system.
Just seemed way too tedious to tinker with.

 

[Esura]

lol what?

An airhead? I dunno.

 

[MaverickHunterAsh]

I'm getting really anxious for Square's FF XIII announcement. I adored both XIII and XIII-2, so I am more than ready for a XIII-3 reveal.

 

[LuuKyK]

I thought it was hard. I remember some of the boss battles took me 30 minutes to beat. And sometimes I would lose because of doom which made me sad since I just wasted 30 minutes of my life. lol.

But then I discovered the wonders of the saboteur and the game became instantly easier.

ROFL. Now that I remember I got so mad at the second (I think) battle against Barthandelus. Holy Shit. It was the one on the top of a tower? idk I just kept dying, then I put Sazh in my group and spammed Haste and all went well. lol But still I kept mad because that Barthandelus guy just kept appearing out of nowhere, it started to get irritating. lol

 

[Dark Schala]

In terms of the main story, Space Pope had not bad battles, I'll agree with that. I don't think I died in the main game due to foreknowledge of not ever pushing my luck with the Adamantoises earlier on.

Now that you guys mention the doom counter, I had no idea there were doom counters outside of the summon battles until a friend mentioned that he got it during a battle that didn't fall into the category.

Spoiler

FFXIII-2 certainly did a number on me, I realize. I ended up thinking of FFXIII in a better light and the feeling is weird.

People complained it was hard... then they added an easy mode patch... then XIII-2 was too easy on normal.

This is the flaw of listening to feedback too much.

Did they ever say why they never ended up patching in a hard mode to go with their normal and easy? The omission was plain weird.

But alas, its not possible after FFXIII-2.

There's still... hope... I guess?

They have acknowledge that pairing's fanbase sometime; I think there are a lot of them out there.

 

[DJIzana]

Grind all you want. Unless you've got the amazingly rare drop from a Long Gui - you aren't just chilling while one drops Ultima combos on you. Even the more tame hunts got ridiculous.

Also, even if you only want to talk about the main story, space pope was fucking up all sorts of people. Grinding would push you through any PS1 FF before, but unless you actually had a basic grasp of how to take advantage of the combat system, you were going to take an L. You couldn't just buy the best equipment and nuke bosses in XIII.

I didn't coast through the battles by any means. The battles were long but I never had any real bad luck. It was a challenge but nothing impossible the first time around... maybe I just had a good stroke of luck?

 

[idlethreats]

Are you sure you want to know?

Spoiler

Lightning x Hope

Where does the "rai" come from? The Japanese spelling of Lightning?

That ship always makes me shudder a little. Hope was leaning on Light to cope with the loss of his mother and Lightning was using Hope to cope with the loss of her younger sister. Her attempts to take care of him are her way of dealing with her guilt over the crappy relationship she had with Serah, she's trying to get a do-over so to speak.

And he's 14! (Maybe not in XIII-2 yeah, but by that time their mother-son dynamic has already been established)

They may have nice designs (at least some of them) but their motivations are terribly bland. Lightning specifically - they tried too hard to make her a "badass" Cloud clone with zero personality and it comes off as forced and makes her very hard to relate to as a female character. Before you ask, I say this as a female myself... she's no where near as believable as the likes of Yuna, Ashe or Celes.

I've never really understood the whole "Lightning is a bad rip-off of Cloud w/no personality" thing. I know the devs said they were trying to model her after Cloud or something like that? But they seemed like completely different characters to me. I honestly don't remember VII Cloud that well, since it's been a decade since the last time I played it, other than the fact that he's operating under a borrowed personality for the bulk of the game, but Lightning's character is flawed and full of rage and guilt and a crippling inability to deal with her bottled emotions in a healthy or appropriate manner which I found interesting and relatable as a woman (though I'm sure guys can relate to those things just as well).

As for the rest of the cast, I didn't mind Hope, but I wish Fang would have been kept as a male. The only other "strong" male was Snow and he was somehow even worse a character than Lightning. There's nothing wrong with having a hero-complex, but Snow took it to the extreme so it came off as doubly annoying.

Just curious, why do you think the game needed another "strong" male character? Most FF games don't have even one strong (in that sense) female character, let alone two. I really loved that they flipped the script with XIII and made the female side of the cast the more dominant ones.

Though I would say that I think Sazh counts as a strong male character, he's just at a different stage in life than the rest of the cast and preoccupied with fatherhood.

 

[Akainu]

lol what?

Hard on the outside nasty on the inside.

 

[Kagari]

As a fan of the game, my least favorite part was the writing. The world, mythology, art design, visuals, and battle system are pretty solid imo. If the writing and set pieces were at least at the same level as FFVI, and if there was more to explore than bits of Pulse, it'd be my favorite FF. I like Lightning because of her character design and being a strong female lead that isn't over-sexualized (which is rare in the industry). I also like how they didn't force her into a romance. Basically she's a character with a lot of potential that was wasted on Toriyama.

She could have still had more feminine qualities without being over-sexualized. One of the earlier CG renders of her looked a lot better actually:

But they changed it for whatever reason.

And her "strongness" is really not even fleshed out - it's extremely shallow. But yeah, it's a lot of wasted potential as you said due to Toriyama for the most part.

 

[StoppedInTracks]

What else people remember about ff13?

What do I remember about FF13:

* "moms are tough"
* absolutely beatiful FMVs starting from the intro one
* being sick of the linearity unseen before in a FF game
* being shocked how low this game went whereas FF12 was the pinnacle of the series
* being STUNNED by the beatiful graphics especially: Palumpolum, Palamecia (the red colour... so good) and Lake Bresha
* awesomely hard fights against HUGE tortoises roaming the Gran Pulse (Long Guis)
* sick (in a good sense) combat tracks
* shirtless Snow
* being angry how short and useless Nautilus area was
* bad-ass design of Barthandelus
* ultimate atmosphere in a FF game: Oerba village plus its track:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GLa0N7kVlfo
(Zanarkand who?)
* seeing Taejin's Tower for the first time in the distance... my jaw hit the floor
* Hope being another Vaan (he is so much better in FF13-2)
* sexy Fang
* the FMV where the Party finally hits Cocoon. So amazing.
* Cocoon in the sky on the Oerba map
* lack of Ifrit

I hate FF13.

And I love it.

 

[Esura]

There's still... hope... I guess?

They have acknowledge that pairing's fanbase sometime; I think there are a lot of them out there.

Hope is what makes us strong. It is why we are here. It is what we fight with when all else is lost.

And yes the fanbase is large. Only downside to it is its hard to find any decent Lightning artwork to use as avatar that doesn't have Hope in it.

Where does the "rai" come from? The Japanese spelling of Lightning?

That ship always makes me shudder a little. Hope was leaning on Light to cope with the loss of his mother and Lightning was using Hope to cope with the loss of her younger sister. Her attempts to take care of him are her way of dealing with her guilt over the crappy relationship she had with Serah, she's trying to get a do-over so to speak.

And he's 14! (Maybe not in XIII-2 yeah, but by that time their mother-son dynamic has already been established)

I dunno, your guess is as good as mines.

EDIT: There is also a Vanille x Sazh pairing too.

 

[Lumpy Onion]

* lack of Ifrit

I hate FF13.

And I love it.

Well to be fair, he does appear in that show in Nautilus battling Ramuh.

 

[King of the Potato People]

What else people remember about ff13?

The worst Birthday ever.

 

[Go_Ly_Dow]

XIII has an excellent mythology, so it's a huge shame they decided to focus more on character drama.

They should have focused on world building and the Fabula mythology.

 

[MagiusNecros]

XIII has an excellent mythology, so it's a huge shame they decided to focus more on character drama.

They should have focused on world building and the Fabula mythology.

Dun worry another game uses the mythology to it's advantage, but I can't talk about it.

 

[Cjdamon042]

I actually don't mind the characters.

XIII wise:
- Lightning is a bit bland but she doesn't annoy me. She could just be better.
- Hope was personally one of my favourites. His voice actor actually seemed capable and expressed Hope's emotions quite well. Sometimes it seemed like you could actually hear him choke up which I thought was good. Didn't think he was that whiny either. And he was the youngest so it kind of makes sense for his emotions to be everywhere.
- Snow is a douche. I can't stand him one bit. The less Snow, the better.
- Fang is also one of my favourites. I loved her personality and attitude. I loved her accent too. She was my lead character when the whole gang came together.
- Vanille is a bit weird, often very cheesy and cringy, but she's all right. She brightened up some of the more dull scenes and areas. The scene between her and Sazh at Nautilus was excellent in my opinion.
Sazh - I like Sazh. That's about it. He was nice to have around.

XIII-2 wise:
- Serah was all right, though at times she seemed a bit naive or clueless or something. Not sure. I didn't mind her as the main character though.
- Noel was great. When I first saw him in the screenshots he looked really silly and I thought I'd hate him, but he turned out to be really good. He was down to earth and good at explaining things. I want him to be in XIII-3 as a playable character.
- Hope was a bit of a let down. He seemed to lose all his personality in this game. His voice actor sounded bored which was a disappointment after his performance in XIII. I get that he's older and more mature in this game but he just lacked anything remotely interesting. In the ending he sounded a lot better, even if it was for just like 3 lines. I do want him to be a playable character in XIII-3 though.

 

[Esura]

Dun worry another game uses the mythology to it's advantage, but I can't talk about it.

You can talk about FFXIII-2 here.

 

[CorvoSol]

I sometimes think that the cast garners more hate than it should. While Snow and Hope are definitely deserving of hatred, and Vanille is welcome to some flak, I really thought that Lightning, Fang, Sazh and Barthandelus were decent characters. I also thought they suffered from being good characters stuck in a bad story. Which in turn was a good story idea written into a bad story by a worse writer.

That said: XIII's cast, like XIII's plot, is III.

Lightning= Ingus, the overworked security cop who is married to the job and a bit of a jerk.
Snow= Desch, the idiot hero with a girl who is bonkers for him. Or Luneth, as the idiot hero that doesn't get on well with the stressed out cop.
Fang= Refia, the hot-headed action girl.
Hope=Arc, the dead-weight loser kid you didn't want to bring with you but had to anyway.
Vanille=Elia/Aria, the perky priestess with a sad story.
Sazh=Cid, the old man who flies the airship.
Barthandelus=Xande, the wizard working to summon the Cosmic Being and destroy the world.

Serah= Sarah, the princess that the overworked cop is working his/her ass off to protect.
Noel= Luneth, the cheery hero who is oh so nice, which would make Yeul and Serah his Aria.

The Crystals are the Fal'Cie, charging the heroes with saving/destroying the world to prevent/trigger the coming of the Cosmic Entity who will Destroy/Save the world and granting them the power to change classes and use magic. Cocoon is the Floating Continent, the War of Transgression is the Flood, etc.

 

[LuuKyK]

* being angry how short and useless Nautilus area was

This pissed me off too. They seriously wasted that awesome city making you go on a corridor (not really, but was still restricted)? I usually don't complain about linearity at all, but that was a really stupid choice because Nautilus looked AMAZING.

Also, dat Chocobo Theme Park! t_t

 

[MagiusNecros]

You can talk about FFXIII-2 here.

I wasn't talking bout disadvantageous convolutedness.

But we can discuss the whereabouts of Pulse and Lindzei if you want since Falc'ie send you directly to Pulse for branding.

Caius just reminds me of Xande for some reason.

 

[Akainu]

Where does the "rai" come from? The Japanese spelling of Lightning?

Rai = Raiden? = God of Thunder = Thunder = Lightning?

 

[MagiusNecros]

Rai = Raiden? = God of Thunder = Thunder = Lightning?

It's just the romaji spelling of Lightning. It's quite literal.

Raitoningu

And let's take Cloud for example: Kuraudo

Even more literal is GILGAMESH: GIRUGAMESSHU

 

[Seda]

I liked XIII-2 much more than XIII, but I still thought both were poor games.

I liked the battle system in both games, and I've always been a sucker for monster party
members. In fact, the monster party members is probably what I liked best about XIII-2. It's hard to explain why exactly. I think the element of actually making decisions who to use and how to build monsters really raised my enjoyment.

I thought the dialogue in the first game was really the worst part. It was silly dialogue in a serious tone, unlike something like FFIX, which also has a fair share of silly dialogue, but the tone of the game is much more lighthearted which suited it. Sazh was easily my favorite character in the first game because his attitude and actions seemed the most believable to me in the situation he was placed in. Snow and Lightning were probably my least favorite. Noel was even batter than Sazh in the sequel. It's refreshing to see a JRPG MC who can actually contemplate and deduce things without having it shoved in their face.

I don't really like any of the "villains" in either game, but there's not really any JRPG villains I like so that's not saying much. Caius is....okay....maybe

 

[CorvoSol]

I wasn't talking bout disadvantageous convolutedness.

But we can discuss the whereabouts of Pulse and Lindzei if you want since Falc'ie send you directly to Pulse for branding.

Caius just reminds me of Xande for some reason.

Spoiler

Caius is Xande inverted, which works out well for FFXIII's inverting FFIII. Xande wanted, above all else, to live, and so he tried to destroy Time and eventually everything to stay alive. Caius, on the other hand, has dying as his endgame, because he wants Yeul to STOP dying, so he tries to destroy time and eventually everything to keep her alive. Barthandelus is like Xande in that he and Orphan want to die to summon their Maker, while Xande summoned the Cloud of Darkness in his last-ditch effort not to die (inasmuch as Xande had any free will at that point. FFIII is unclear on how exactly The Cloud used Xande.)

And Pulse and Lindzei

Spoiler

are probably gearing up for their attempt to open Etro's Gate in Versus, since their attempt at opening it failed in Type-0 and XIII.

 

[Esura]

It's refreshing to see a JRPG MC who can actually contemplate and deduce things without having it shoved in their face.

I think a lot of you Noel fans would love Yuri Lowell from Vesperia.

 

[Seda]

I think a lot of you Noel fans would love Yuri Lowell from Vesperia.

Well what do you know, Yuri is my favorite MC in any game ever.

 

[MagiusNecros]

ExDeath is still my favorite villain in the series. Glad to see others liked Sazh as a character, definitely the best out of the 8 given IMO. Caius was kinda eh to me. Good battle themes but that's about it.

 

[MagiusNecros]

Spoiler

Caius is Xande inverted, which works out well for FFXIII's inverting FFIII. Xande wanted, above all else, to live, and so he tried to destroy Time and eventually everything to stay alive. Caius, on the other hand, has dying as his endgame, because he wants Yeul to STOP dying, so he tries to destroy time and eventually everything to keep her alive. Barthandelus is like Xande in that he and Orphan want to die to summon their Maker, while Xande summoned the Cloud of Darkness in his last-ditch effort not to die (inasmuch as Xande had any free will at that point. FFIII is unclear on how exactly The Cloud used Xande.)

And Pulse and Lindzei

Spoiler

are probably gearing up for their attempt to open Etro's Gate in Versus, since their attempt at opening it failed in Type-0 and XIII.

I just wonder if the Rift and Etro's Gate have anything in common.

 

[Meccanical]

I think a lot of you Noel fans would love Yuri Lowell from Vesperia.

Hell yeah I love Yuri Lowell.

Definitely the best Tales protag.

 

[MagiusNecros]

Hell yeah I love Yuri Lowell.

Definitely the best Tales protag.

I like Stahn better.

Still waiting for Tales of BARBATIA: BARBATOS COUNTER ATTACK

 

[Esura]

Wait, after FFXIII-2, technically Pulse and Lindzei succeeded no?

 

[MagiusNecros]

Wait, after FFXIII-2, technically Pulse and Lindzei succeeded no?

No. Basically what happened is that the "Chaotic" Entity that Etro was holding back broke free.

The thing I've never understood if Etro is stripped of her powers and then she kills herself how does she receive powers of a fal'cie?

By her mother through death? And will our stagnant heroes need to die to pass through the gate?

 

[Akainu]

It's just the romaji spelling of Lightning. It's quite literal.

Raitoningu

And let's take Cloud for example: Kuraudo

Even more literal is GILGAMESH: GIRUGAMESSHU

Well there's that too I gueeeess.

 

[Toth]

Wait, after FFXIII-2, technically Pulse and Lindzei succeeded no?

I don't believe so.

Spoiler

The world turned into Valhalla at the end. I do believe Valhalla is not the same as the Unseen World.

Now if Valhalla / Unseen world at the end are the same, they may have succeeded in opening the gate but the final battle hinted at through both games is still approaching.

 

[MagiusNecros]

I don't believe so.

Spoiler

The world turned into Valhalla at the end. I do believe Valhalla is not the same as the Unseen World.

Now if Valhalla / Unseen world at the end are the same, they may have succeeded in opening the gate but the final battle hinted at through both games is still approaching.

The True Ragnarok.

 

[Shapingo]

I want Sazh's ex-wife to be a villian in FFXIII-3.

 

[Lumpy Onion]

I want Sazh's ex-wife to be a villian in FFXIII-3.

I thought she died.

 

[MagiusNecros]

I thought she died.

Watch Valhalla mess with the laws of life and death!

 

[Cuddler]

They may have nice designs (at least some of them) but their motivations are terribly bland. Lightning specifically - they tried too hard to make her a "badass" Cloud clone with zero personality and it comes off as forced and makes her very hard to relate to as a female character. Before you ask, I say this as a female myself... she's no where near as believable as the likes of Yuna, Ashe or Celes.

The moment she started spouting crap like "I changed my name to become strong to protect my sister..." my god, what a cringeworthy moment. The worst part of that is there was really nothing that made me care about that situation, or the fact that Serah ended up being the one you had to save in the end.

Her only saving grace is she's voiced by Maaya Sakamoto in the Japanese version, but her English VA is downright awful. Can't stand Ali's wooden performance here even though I know she's a capable actress.

As for the rest of the cast, I didn't mind Hope, but I wish Fang would have been kept as a male. The only other "strong" male was Snow and he was somehow even worse a character than Lightning. There's nothing wrong with having a hero-complex, but Snow took it to the extreme so it came off as doubly annoying.

I didn't have much of a problem with Vanille (Japanese version) or Sazh, but they really didn't offer much in my opinion. In fact, I think my main issue with the entire cast in the game is that they've made it very hard for me to have any sort of meaningful attachment at all. I was replaying FFVII recently and the brilliance of that game comes from the character moments - Red XIII finding the truth about his father, Cid finally realizing his dream of going into outspace, etc. FFXIII never really hit that stride for me because it was buried too deep in style over substance.

As for the main story, well, like I said. It had potential at first but fell apart a good 1/2 way through the game. I kept waiting for it to get more interesting, but it never happened. Such a let down. XII had its misgivings with its story as well, but I never felt that disappointed about it.

Thanks for the answer! I've actually not played FF7, so maybe that changed my vision on Lightning? I've only finished FFX, FFXIII and SMTevil Summoner and that's it, even if I have basically played every other ps2 and ps3 rpg released in Europe (minus Atelier, Ar tonelico, etc...). Lightning for me was a good character, I agree with you that sometimes the things that she said were a little too forced, and this can be said for every other character in the game. About Fang, I like the fact that is a girl, is a good character and I don't think that there's a need for a strong guy character in every final fantasy. Vanille was a good character, and mixed with Fang, was even better, at least it wasn't the same thing that we always seen, you can actually see them as friends or lover, but in the game it doesn't really matter, they care so much about eachother and I thought it was an awesome relationship. About Snow, yes he was sometimes a little too much I'm the Heroooo! I agree with you about that. Both Hope and Sahz were not bad. What I'm trying to say it's that maybe for me not every character needs to be good and perfect, even in real life there are person that are more annoying, too much insecure, etc...Maybe it's just because I've not played so many rpgs and I still stand this type of characters. I've actually not encontered any character that is too much annoying, the only one is the little girl that keep saying 'kay in every single sentence in SO4...