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[Izuna]

lol

 

[GTR R35_Supra RZ]

Lol X1 stable as @$!#

 

[Kent]

Haha, I'm not the only one then. Even now, I don't know what frame-pacing is.

Frame pacing is the concept of the system putting out frames at a steady pace. While two hypothetical games may both put out 30 frames per second, one with proper frame pacing will display a new frame at regular intervals, whereas one with frame pacing issues will display some frames for longer than others, even though it may still have the same total number of frames per second.

Visually, it can be hard for some to discern it from simply having an uneven framerate. However, since many games tie input logic (i.e. button presses and such) to the rate at which frames are output, frame pacing issues can result in a compromised gameplay experience, because things will just feel weirdly uneven and inconsistent (and, like inconsistent frame rates, can make some players feel nauseous).

To give an example of what it means, say we have a 30fps game, and a monitor that updates at 60Hz - a very common scenario. For the first five frames of the game, we pack them into 10 monitor refreshes. If frame pacing were even, we'd see this (numbers representing unique frames):

1 1 2 2 3 3 4 4 5 5

With uneven frame pacing, we see variances in this, which may cause a scenario where the frames come out as:

1 1 1 2 3 4 4 5 5 5

Frames 1 and 5 are displayed 50% longer than the average frame of the previous example, while frames 2 and 3 are displayed for half the amount of time, and frame 4 is visible for two updates. The result is something that looks and feels noticeably chunky, and isn't a smooth transition of frames.

Having both frame rate and frame pacing be consistent are incredibly important for a game to feel good. Much more important than simply going for a higher resolution image

This is also something that can be quite difficult to fix, as it requires basically everything in the game to be within specification for the engine to handle it all smoothly..

 

[Liabe Brave]

It would manifest more as screen tearing than visible jerkiness. Bad frame-pacing can be very noticeable. Instead of torn-frames, you get judder.

You're incorrect. Tearing happens when a game engine decides to send an incomplete frame as output. But it could send a complete, untorn frame (e.g. when triple buffered) and that wouldn't necessarily change when that frame is sent. Obviously, it's only the timing that determines framepacing, not the content of the frame.

All low framerates on console are pacing issues. This is due to limitations of display tech, so is not subject to fixing by any change in the game engine. "Framepacing" as in Bloodborne and PS4 FF XV differs from other bad framerates only in that the right quantity of unique frames is shown, instead of some being torn or missing. That's why Digital Foundry more precisely refers to it as "30fps average" with framepacing issues.

I can at least say that I wasn't the one who said that. That sounds ridiculous.

This quote is you, though:
"Basically, vertical sync is held at all times, provided the game is meeting its 33-millisecond frametime objectives." That sentence is pure tautology, and can be applied to every game that's ever been made. Not ridiculous, but not particularly helpful.

Just a note, I went back through your PS4 comparison video, and I couldn't spot any instance at all where PS4 Pro in light mode had framepacing problems, apart from the one unusual cutscene where high mode outperformed it (!). None of the gameplay seemed to show amymispaced frames...but it was hard to tell because (due to the nature of the video) there were always comparisons going on where the other version was mispacing all the time. Do you have any footage of light mode by itself with your frametime graphing on?

 

[johnnydrama]

Can't wait for thelastword to roll in here claiming that bad frame pacing is actually a feature and how dare these biased morons say nice things about Xbox. Blasphemy.

So the XB1 version is a blurfest.......Personally, I find all versions to be a tad too blurry with the aggressive TAA, but the XB1 version is vaseline incarnate..... It's great that it doesn't have framepacing issues, but I don't see how anyone would even claim this version to be the second best version when it falls to 27fps often with tearing at 900p dynamic rez.....I imagine it would be hell to pay if this was skyrim remastered falling to 27fps with tearing on the PS4.Pro albeit at 4k native resolution.........

One thing is clear however, it's that this game is GPU bound for the most part, pretty much every battle on the XB1 is dropping frames and what's shown here is pretty barebones early pizzy battles in a traditional FF. Some later battles will have more effects, much larger enemies and anybody thinking that outside of framepacing the XB1 is great are fooling themselves tbh. I still remember FF13, when DF made initial tests of the game in early chapters.....only for people who played far enough into the game reporting that the framerate became really bad in later chapters.....If the XB1 is faltering in such low tier entry battles in FF, it does not bode well for when things get heavy later on.


On the flip, these framepacing issues can and will most probably be fixed on PS4 in a few days. IQ is better and framerate is better there, it makes no sense to buy a worse performing game (fps) on the XB1 with far worse IQ (tearing, blurfactor*), all in the name of framepacing. The XB1 will never run as good as the PS4 version (fps) or look as good (rez, pro benefits), but a framepacing fix on the PS4 is pretty much a guarantee.....either through a patch, or the upcoming 60fps mode on the pro. Some people are pretending that this game is going to be a weekend burn, this game is one you will be playing for more than a few days and in December which is 1 day away, sometime in that month it will get more updates on the PS4. I don't know why someone with both platforms would buy the XB1 version when the PS4 version could very well be patched up in a few days where every checkmark will be superior on that platform.....

So yes atm....

PS4 has: better IQ, better framerate, no tearing
XB1 has: worse IQ, worse framerate, tearing

The differentiator is frampeacing...which can be fixed easily...

Got em.

 

[Kaydan]

This is also something that can be quite difficult to fix, as it requires basically everything in the game to be within specification for the engine to handle it all smoothly..

The differentiator is frampeacing...which can be fixed easily...

So is it easy to fix or not?

 

[Izuna]

You're incorrect. Tearing happens when a game engine decides to send an incomplete frame as output. But it could send a complete, untorn frame (e.g. when triple buffered) and that wouldn't necessarily change when that frame is sent. Obviously, it's only the timing that determines framepacing, not the content of the frame.

All low framerates on console are pacing issues. This is due to limitations of display tech, so is not subject to fixing by any change in the game engine. "Framepacing" as in Bloodborne and PS4 FF XV differs from other bad framerates only in that the right quantity of unique frames is shown, instead of some being torn or missing. That's why Digital Foundry more precisely refers to it as "30fps average" with framepacing issues.

I see.

I was reading up on a few things after your comment and will shameless state that I was super wrong. <3

 

[Neander]

Glad I was able to grab the $29.99 deal from Newegg. Perfect.

 

[TheRed]

Lmao, I don't care about any console war stuff but that's a funny gif.

 

[HTupolev]

So is it easy to fix or not?

It is a mystery.

 

[levious]

No difference between one and one s?

 

[Timu]

No difference between one and one s?

John from DF said there wasn't much of a difference.

 

[Kilau]

I'll take the version that looks better and has a more stable frame rate, sounds like the better experience.

 

[EmiPrime]

Brilliant.

 

[HappyPuppy]

PS4/Xbox.gif

Fuck! thanks for the summary. I laughed, I cried, I learned and became a better person.

 

[BBboy20]

Is it happening? Last I read they were considering it.

They're using every trick in the book to recoup the costs; PC is inevitable.

 

[ruddiger7]

Have been playing the xb1 version, no frame pacing issues actually quite happy with the framerate but the blurry image is taking time to get used to.

 

[Kent]

So is it easy to fix or not?

It can be. It depends on a lot of factors, and I don't claim knowledge over how this engine is handling things, nor where its bottlenecks lie.

However, since these issues aren't apparent on the Xbox One version, we can assume that some combination of lower resolution and different APIs has something to do with it. Microsoft has goddamn wizards in their employ, so it's entirely possible that there's an API bottleneck that simply isn't present on their platform.

If these frame pacing issues are present on both the PS4 and PS4 Pro, then it's likely more complicated of an issue than simply adjusting the resolution downward. Though, it'd be interesting to see how the game behaves on them when turned down to 720p.

 

[thelastword]

So is it easy to fix or not?

One console version has no framepacing, the other has it. It most definitely can be fixed, the XB1 is not devoid of framepacing because it's special hardware...

Look at ROTTR, should we play the 360 version because it's the only one with no latency issues? The PS4 version was fixed, showed that these things can be fixed and easily....It got broken on the PS4 again only because of the Pro Patch but I'm sure the PS4/Pro versions will get sorted out again......

 

[Wereroku]

Quote on OP says otherwise

Huh?

 

[Liabe Brave]

I was reading up on a few things after your comment and will shameless state that I was super wrong. <3

Well, good on you for being curious! I'm not a computer scientist myself, so my knowledge is also gleaned from studying what actual experts have to say.

And please note that I was only addressing a question of fact, not opinions about that fact. It's a fact that low framerates will be more noticeable than solid framerates with framepacing issues. But it's up to each person which one they find more annoying.

(Though as a matter of fact in this particular case, I really haven't seen any meaningful framepacing issues in the PS4 Pro light footage DF has analyzed. So I'm not wholly convinced there's a reason to present the Xbox One as even a possible preference.)

 

[statham]

If this was somehow the the first post, it would by 1st post of the year.

 

[ALLseeingEYE]

Well, keep in mind that this game was originally locked to 720p on Xbox and 900p on PS4.

Hey Dark10x,
my only other main concern with the Xbox One version, is the one thing I didn't see in your video.

How does the quality hold up for the pre-rendered cinematics? The pre-rendered cinematics looked awful and grainy on Xbox 360 version of Final Fantasy XIII, and even looked poor on the PC version, while the PS3 version's CG looked pristine. Are these on par for both consoles?

 

[keidashxd]

So this time there's no good choice, all have problems... great work S-E.

 

[daman824]

Hey Dark10x,
my only other main concern with the Xbox One version, is the one thing I didn't see in your video.

How does the quality hold up for the pre-rendered cinematics? The pre-rendered cinematics looked awful and grainy on Xbox 360 version of Final Fantasy XIII, and even looked poor on the PC version, while the PS3 version's CG looked pristine. Are these on par for both consoles?

I highly doubt that there is any difference in pre-rendered cutscenes.

The 360 version of ff13 was most likely heavily compressed. But both the xb1 and PS4 versions of ff15 are on a blu ray disk

 

[diaspora]

The differentiator is frampeacing...which can be fixed easily...

Meanwhile in Bloodborne...

 

[Hugh Swank]

After watching The DF analysis, I don't think I would use the words "especially blurry" or "incredibly blurry" ,as used in the video commentary, to describe what I was seeing on screen.

 

[Sydle]

They're using every trick in the book to recoup the costs; PC is inevitable.

I hope you're right. : D

 

[FarFromAnyGame]

I wish xbox runs hat smooth...

 

[FerretGamer]

Damn it, I wish I pre-ordered at $35 from MS Store.

 

[EvB]

. Are these on par for both consoles?

Probably, I've seen DF running frame rate tests on in engine pre rendered video , so if they can't tell, I don't know who will.

 

[Hawk269]

So is it easy to fix or not?

Not directed at you, but if it is so easy to fix, why has it not been fixed or why was it there in the first place? If is so easy as that guy is saying, why can't they issue a "hot fix" and do it now?

 

[Shock32]

Glad I went with the pro with the bump in resolution. Saying that ill be waiting for the near 60fps patch in December.

 

[SmoothRunningGun]

Lol.

 

[Digital-Hero]

Up the PS4 frames just a tad. =P

Joking aside, the XB1 version is so blurry.

 

[chromatic9]

Needs some heavy gaussian blur

 

[megathemiis]

Perfect!

 

[JORMBO]

XB1 version has been nice and stable. It's a blurry mess though. One of the ugliest XB1 games I have played.

 

[ViolentP]

Playing on a Pro and gotta say, framerate while serviceable is still a bit "yeesh".

 

[WadeitOut]

So is the frame pacing issue definitely just in HQ mode on the pro? I'm 100% positive I'm playing it in normal mode and I feel like I'm still having frame pacing issues.

 

[ThatsMytrunks]

Well shit, now I'm torn. I guess I should wait another week or two for a PS4 patch, and if that fixes the frame pacing, I'll get a Pro and that copy. Otherwise I'll go with XBO. I can't stand stuttering.

 

[RPGCrazied]

I guess I see this on regular PS4. Sure its not all the time, but when it happens it stutters like its on crack, at least there is no tearing, but I really hope SE can smooth this out some.

 

[Zeus The Dino]

After watching The DF analysis, I don't think I would use the words "especially blurry" or "incredibly blurry" ,as used in the video commentary, to describe what I was seeing on screen.

Trust me, on screen its blurry

 

[El_Chino]

Trust me, on screen its blurry

I've seen much worse.

 

[dark10x]

Whew, my prediction was correct. The master has appeared.

I love how he's like "oh, it'll be fixed in a few days" despite the fact that this issue has existed and been reported on for years in regards to this game. It would be fantastic if it's fixed but....I fear we're looking at a Bloodborne situation.

 

[ekim]

Summary:
- Resolution 900p with adaptive resolution switches to lower res (720p?)
- Very blurry
- No frame pacing issues or microstutter
- Some frame drops especially during battle sequences, but adaptive vsync means you don't get ugly frame tearing

(dark10x recommends, based on his own IQ versus performance versus visuals priorities: PS4 Pro on Lite mode > Xbox One > PS4 Base mode)

So the XB1 version is a blurfest.......Personally, I find all versions to be a tad too blurry with the aggressive TAA, but the XB1 version is vaseline incarnate..... It's great that it doesn't have framepacing issues, but I don't see how anyone would even claim this version to be the second best version when it falls to 27fps often with tearing at 900p dynamic rez.....I imagine it would be hell to pay if this was skyrim remastered falling to 27fps with tearing on the PS4.Pro albeit at 4k native resolution.........

One thing is clear however, it's that this game is GPU bound for the most part, pretty much every battle on the XB1 is dropping frames and what's shown here is pretty barebones early pizzy battles in a traditional FF. Some later battles will have more effects, much larger enemies and anybody thinking that outside of framepacing the XB1 is great are fooling themselves tbh. I still remember FF13, when DF made initial tests of the game in early chapters.....only for people who played far enough into the game reporting that the framerate became really bad in later chapters.....If the XB1 is faltering in such low tier entry battles in FF, it does not bode well for when things get heavy later on.


On the flip, these framepacing issues can and will most probably be fixed on PS4 in a few days. IQ is better and framerate is better there, it makes no sense to buy a worse performing game (fps) on the XB1 with far worse IQ (tearing, blurfactor*), all in the name of framepacing. The XB1 will never run as good as the PS4 version (fps) or look as good (rez, pro benefits), but a framepacing fix on the PS4 is pretty much a guarantee.....either through a patch, or the upcoming 60fps mode on the pro. Some people are pretending that this game is going to be a weekend burn, this game is one you will be playing for more than a few days and in December which is 1 day away, sometime in that month it will get more updates on the PS4. I don't know why someone with both platforms would buy the XB1 version when the PS4 version could very well be patched up in a few days where every checkmark will be superior on that platform.....

So yes atm....

PS4 has: better IQ, better framerate, no tearing
XB1 has: worse IQ, worse framerate, tearing

The differentiator is frampeacing...which can be fixed easily...

hm...

 

[freefornow]

Whew, my prediction was correct.

dark10x Neogaf Nostradamus confirmed!

 

[RyudBoy]

Stupid Fed-EX didn't deliver my game.

 

[mentok15]

Does anyone have screenshots of the Xbone version that shows how blurry it is?

 

[ResidentDante]

Can't wait for thelastword to roll in here claiming that bad frame pacing is actually a feature and how dare these biased morons say nice things about Xbox. Blasphemy.

Hahaha!