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[Mister Zimbu]

constructive criticism

The beta forums were filled with constructive criticism before, which for the most part are promptly ignored by SE. The flaming at this point is completely with merit and a result of frustration with dealing with Square, because they literally do not communicate directly with the testers ever. We only get updates through these random interviews which are then translated to English.

Off the top of my head:

• Lack of an auction house, which is instead replaced by a wildly less functional retainer system, to the point of which that it's completely unusable - "By design", SE currently not considering anything further
• Hardware Mouse - Only addressed by SE after lots of flaming from player base outside beta forums
• Fatigue System - Constructive feedback given, completely ignored. Now being flamed outside beta forums, still completely ignored.
• Penalty for being in a group of any sort - Only now beginning to even address that it's a problem.
• Lack of NPC gear vendors - Unaddressed(?)
• Targeting System - Mildly improved (casting Cure on yourself no longer takes 8 clicks), but still unusable (casting Cure on party members still does)
• Caster Skill Rate Imbalance - Already established that caster classes get slightly less skill points than melee when playing solo. Casters get significantly less skill points than melee when partying, more often than not getting zero points for a fight. Dedicated healers specifically will almost always get zero points. Completely ignored.
• Literally impossible for a caster to efficiently regenerate MP - For the uninitiated, if you're a caster and you're out of MP before level 10, you have to run all the way back to town to regenerate it; it does not regenerate on its own while resting like HP does. After level 10 you get an MP regeneration ability - you have to use about fivemelee attacks to get enough TP to use it, it misses roughly have the time, and only regens about 6 MP (1/2 a typical spell's cost) when it does hit. When solo, you can efficiently use this to regenerate mana (at the expense of pretty much doing anything else - all you will be using is your melee attack and this ability, and you will have all your MP back after about 30 fights). In groups using this is not feasible whatsoever. SE has acknowledged this and said it's a non-issue and will not do anything about it.

Regardless of all this, FATIGUE IS NOT A CASUAL-FRIENDLY MECHANIC. All it does is reduce the hardcore players to have to play as a casual!

WoW is casually friendly because you get a small bonus if you haven't logged on in awhile to help you cover the missed ground, and you can progress normally through the game on your own. Hardcore players will still progress faster because they're not hindered any way.

FFXI wasn't casual friendly - not because hardcore players got there faster, but just because you couldn't solo, and groups took 3 hours to form before you could even start doing anything (as a RDM/BRD/WHM - dps classes presumably took longer to find a group). FFXI forced you to play for at least 6 hours in a session before you could get anywhere. That's why it was casual-unfriendly, not because players who played more- *gasp*- got further!

The game in and of itself is still casual-friendly ONLY in the respect that you can now level solo. The steep level grind is still there and in fact it is even more repetitive than FFXI's grind was, as now you're just grinding out the same mobs over and over again alone instead of with other players.

edit: i should probably start working again. GAF is not casual-friendly

 

[Londa]

Regardless of all this, FATIGUE IS NOT A CASUAL-FRIENDLY MECHANIC. All it does is reduce the hardcore players to have to play as a casual!

The game in and of itself is still casual-friendly ONLY in the respect that you can now level solo. The steep level grind is still there and in fact it is even more repetitive than FFXI's grind was, as now you're just grinding out the same mobs over and over again alone instead of with other players.

It might take longer to get to 75 than it does in FFXI because you can only exp for 8 hours a week. Try exping for 8 hours a week in FFXI. lol it will take you 3 years (or even more) to get to 75.

No one wins with this system. Casual and Hardcore will lose if the grinding is just like FFXI (56,000 tnl).

 

[Haint]

It might take longer to get to 75 than it does in FFXI because you can only exp for 8 hours a week. Try exping for 8 hours a week in FFXI. lol it will take you 3 years (or even more) to get to 75.

No one wins with this system. Casual and Hardcore will lose if the grinding is just like FFXI (56,000 tnl).

In XIV, I think the Job Rank TNL is probably in the 56,000's somewhere in the 20's or 30's...or perhaps that is physical level. I definitely recall being 40-something thousand TNL in the low 20's. A green con (Even Match) Mob drops 10-300 job XP at random the way people are presently playing the Beta--400-500 physical XP

 

[Zalasta]

Well, be my guest to keep beating a dead horse. Arguing the merit of the system is pointless, no one can wholeheartedly say that it's good, I am certainly not interested in convincing anybody to change their mind. If this makes the game unplayable for you, then fine, but keep bashing it is just stupid. I'm more interested in how to work within the limitation of the fatigue.

 

[HappyBivouac]

I'm honestly still completely stoked for retail, despite the numerous problems I have with the game in its current state. Fatigue system is stupid, but it isn't a deal breaker for me. I hate playing a game with the attitude "omg gotta level to cap as fast as possible!" but people who want to do that should be allowed to do so.

I'm being a realist, believe it or not. I don't expect to game to be fantastic at launch. But amidst all this doom and gloom talk, who else is still extremely excited for this? (don't tell me it's just Londa...)

 

[hitsugi]

It might take longer to get to 75 than it does in FFXI because you can only exp for 8 hours a week. Try exping for 8 hours a week in FFXI. lol it will take you 3 years (or even more) to get to 75.

No one wins with this system. Casual and Hardcore will lose if the grinding is just like FFXI (56,000 tnl).

Really? what about the PTs that do 12k+ per hour..? 10k was pretty much average and 8k or less was considered horrible for me when I left FFXI. Hitting 75 took me 3 months of pretty casual play.

I do agree that the current limitations put in place for XIV are a little crazy, though.

 

[Londa]

Really? what about the PTs that do 12k+ per hour..? 10k was pretty much average and 8k or less was considered horrible for me when I left FFXI. Hitting 75 took me 3 months of pretty casual play.

I do agree that the current limitations put in place for XIV are a little crazy, though.

did you play as casual as 8 hours a week? I guess I'm thinking more of when FFXI had signet that didn't give you a exp bonus. Signet just gave you points you can use at the gate npcs to get a warp scroll and if you had tons of points you could get a nation body piece.

It took me a year to get thf to 75. But much shorter to get Bard to 75 with TOAU expansion.

 

[vazel]

What happened to the $10 pre-order credit on Amazon?

Edit: It's now only there for the PS3 version.

 

[demosthenes]

did you play as casual as 8 hours a week? I guess I'm thinking more of when FFXI had signet that didn't give you a exp bonus. Signet just gave you points you can use at the gate npcs to get a warp scroll and if you had tons of points you could get a nation body piece.

It took me a year to get thf to 75. But much shorter to get Bard to 75 with TOAU expansion.

TOAU expansion + Bard + level 55 could be short as a couple of weeks if you played enough and said bard could get non-stop chains :lol

 

[JudgeN]

In XIV, I think the Job Rank TNL is probably in the 56,000's somewhere in the 20's or 30's...or perhaps that is physical level. I definitely recall being 40-something thousand TNL in the low 20's. A green con (Even Match) Mob drops 10-300 job XP at random the way people are presently playing the Beta--400-500 physical XP

I'm worried about this, seems they increased the amount of grinding people are going to have to do and right now party play is completely fucked. I don't want to grind anymore, I did enough of that from 2003-2009 in FFXI :lol

 

[Gravijah]

There isn't an AH? Then what the fuck is there?

 

[Jinko]

Really? what about the PTs that do 12k+ per hour..? 10k was pretty much average and 8k or less was considered horrible for me when I left FFXI. Hitting 75 took me 3 months of pretty casual play.

Yea, but you would have never seen that kind of XP at launch anyway, I think 5-6k was the best you could achieve at US launch, much less at Japanese launch.

I'm honestly still completely stoked for retail, despite the numerous problems I have with the game in its current state. Fatigue system is stupid, but it isn't a deal breaker for me. I hate playing a game with the attitude "omg gotta level to cap as fast as possible!" but people who want to do that should be allowed to do so.

I'm being a realist, believe it or not. I don't expect to game to be fantastic at launch. But amidst all this doom and gloom talk, who else is still extremely excited for this? (don't tell me it's just Londa...)

This is about the same way I feel.

 

[Salaadin]

I know its awful that Im going to be kinda supporting this half assed system by buying the game but Im going to anyways. My expectations have been significantly lowered and Im not going in there thinking its some miracle MMO now. I have too much of an MMO bug now to back out and looking at what other MMOs are on the horizon, nothing seems to grab me.

 

[LowParry]

I'm honestly still completely stoked for retail, despite the numerous problems I have with the game in its current state. Fatigue system is stupid, but it isn't a deal breaker for me. I hate playing a game with the attitude "omg gotta level to cap as fast as possible!" but people who want to do that should be allowed to do so.

I'm being a realist, believe it or not. I don't expect to game to be fantastic at launch. But amidst all this doom and gloom talk, who else is still extremely excited for this? (don't tell me it's just Londa...)

Yes, I want to level as quickly as possible. There's how many classes that we can play with one character? :lol

 

[Spire]

There isn't an AH? Then what the fuck is there?

Old school bazaars I assume. A lag-infested area of people afking for days with overpriced junk in their store.

 

[Gravijah]

Old school bazaars I assume. A lag-infested area of people afking for days with overpriced junk in their store.

SE innovation.

 

[Khrno]

who else is still extremely excited for this? (don't tell me it's just Londa...)

No, it isn't just her.

Really? what about the PTs that do 12k+ per hour..? 10k was pretty much average and 8k or less was considered horrible for me when I left FFXI. Hitting 75 took me 3 months of pretty casual play.

When the game was released for NA (and even for EU) a low level party didn't average more than 3k exp hour, unless it was a manaburn or an arrowburn. When I hit 75 a great party was to chain all the weapons in the rooms there in Sky, and I don't think that was more than 10k/h, oh and I was forgetting about Uleguerand moving parties, but those were after, before the best place was Sky. Monks burns and manaburns still had the edge with w/e exp they got per hour.

It wasn't until ToA that the system got screwed up, yes, screwed up, and FFXI went into easy mode. And a good merit party wouldn't do less than 25k/h with a lower party doing the numbers you said. Maat's caps bloomed after ToA.

There isn't an AH? Then what the fuck is there?

There's 0%

I know its awful that Im going to be kinda supporting this half assed system by buying the game but Im going to anyways. My expectations have been significantly lowered and Im not going in there thinking its some miracle MMO now.

FFXIV is and has been since I left FFXI my most wanted game (even before we knew anything else besides what was called Rapture). But I've never had high expectations. I've always thought this is going to be a mess of a game just like FFXI was at its beginnings that will turn out into an amazing game over time.

 

[Gravijah]

Is it sad that I'm still gonna be buying this day 1 for the PS3...? Hopefully stuff is improved by then...

 

[demosthenes]

Is it sad that I'm still gonna be buying this day 1 for the PS3...? Hopefully stuff is improved by then...

More and more I read is making me want to run as far away from this as possible, SE just seems to be shooting themselves in the foot at every turn.

 

[Londa]

TOAU expansion + Bard + level 55 could be short as a couple of weeks if you played enough and said bard could get non-stop chains :lol

I know! I think that is why I decided to level Bard. After dealing with having to make all my parties as a Thf and waiting 2+ hours for a party to get together, I wanted a job that could give me faster exp.

No, it isn't just her.

Really starting to think people are obsessed with me.



I'm still buying this game regardless. But if they don't change the exp limitations. I think I will lose interest fast.

 

[Mister Zimbu]

Old school bazaars I assume. A lag-infested area of people afking for days with overpriced junk in their store.

It's their revolutionary new retainer system!

Basically, every player can recruit a "retainer", which is an NPC that is more or less their "bank"; the retainer can hold 80 items, and you can set up a bazaar on them. Then the player goes over to a special zone in the city called the "Market Wards", which are instanced with arbitrary names (eg, "East Market Ward", etc.). You can then place your retainer in the market ward and set up their bazaar as you would your own.

From a customer perspective, if I want to buy a new Staff, I have to:

• Walk over to the market wards section in the city. This section is not marked in any way. It's just in a random spot and it will put up a small notification in the corner of your screen
• Go into the main menu and hit "Enter Market Wards"
• Choose the first market ward on the list (because that's where everybody puts all their retainers because it's the default option)
• I then zone into the market wards. Hundreds of NPCs spawn around me all with bazaars, just standing there.
• I start inspecting random bazaars to see if any of them happen to be selling staves (probably not), if any of them are upgrades to my own (probably not), and if they're overly expensive compared to nearby retainers also selling staves (screw you SE).
• All this inspecting is a COMPLETELY manual process. You can not "search" the market wards. You can not even filter down the area by category. You literally have to check each bazaar randomly, hoping to find something you want.

Have you ever seen The Amazing Race? Remember the "Who can find a needle in the hay bales" roadblock? It's like that only the needles are smaller, the hay bales are covered in shit, and everything has a 2 second lag.

This is by design.

 

[Spire]

Well at least you don't have to afk, although with that and the instancing why not just put in an AH? The only difference now seems to be that you have to manually sort through peoples shit instead of just searching for it and it being neatly organized. What's the point? The only bonus the bazaar system had going for it were the social aspects of interacting with the people themselves, some of them occasionally willing to haggle with you.

 

[madara]

I always said square fanboys would buy a final fantasy game even it only came with an empty cardboard box but I surely hope gamers send a clear message about a long list of crap they dont seem to have any interest in really addressing. SOE had to learn with EQ2, surely seems like SE needs to learn you cant ride on just FF name, half ass it and rush it to market.

 

[Khrno]

I know! I think that is why I decided to level Bard. After dealing with having to make all my parties as a Thf and waiting 2+ hours for a party to get together, I wanted a job that could give me faster exp.

The good thing about so many people leveling BRD during ToA was that it was very easy to make a 2xBRD merit party, I think it was harder to find a RDM or WHM at times than a BRD.

Well at least you don't have to afk, although with that and the instancing why not just put in an AH? The only difference now seems to be that you have to manually sort through peoples shit instead of just searching for it and it being neatly organized. What's the point? The only bonus the bazaar system had going for it were the social aspects of interacting with the people themselves, some of them occasionally willing to haggle with you.

The most likely reason is that the AH is still unfinished, they probably left it at the bottom of the list, or just had trouble making it, who knows, and decided to put the retainer system in place which would give them time to work on the AH and housing at a later date.

Because the place that is believed to be the AH in Limsa-Lominsa is there, behind closed doors tho.

 

[Lebron]

What the fuck kind of MMO coming out in 2010 doesn't have a damn AH? Who in the hell came up with that idea, and why in the hell didn't someone throw a stapler at them? Geez, it's like I'm playing Rose Online again.

 

[Gravijah]

What the fuck kind of MMO coming out in 2010 doesn't have a damn AH? Who in the hell came up with that idea, and why in the hell didn't someone throw a stapler at them? Geez, it's like I'm playing Rose Online again.

Dude! When I heard of the "retainer" thing, that's exactly what popped into my head! I played the beta of that shit.

 

[Pai Pai Master]

Everyone kept agreeing that FFXIV could be so good because SE "learned a lot from FFXI." But it seems like they've completely forgotten how to make an MMO. :lol

 

[Salaadin]

Theres not an AH at all period? I thought the quote was "no ah at launch, we will work on it to improve it until its ready though, we suck, have fun not xping"

EDIT: SOrry, typo

 

[Spire]

FFXI has an AH. Admittedly its bidding system is a little funky but it's not bad, why can't they just port that over? It'd be a better placeholder for whatever new thing they want to do than this retainer system and it probably would have taken less work to implement.

 

[Mister Zimbu]

The actual response was along the lines of "No AH at launch. We'll see how the retainer system does for now."

It sounded to me like they never intended an AH.

Or they're knowingly releasing crap.

Hey! Both!

What the fuck kind of MMO coming out in 2010 doesn't have a damn AH? Who in the hell came up with that idea, and why in the hell didn't someone throw a stapler at them? Geez, it's like I'm playing Rose Online again.

If you think about it too, it's the EXACT concept of a standard auction house only with purposefully obfuscated and frustrating to use. It's a marketplace with no searchability or categorization whatsoever.

FFXI has an AH. Admittedly its bidding system is a little funky but it's not bad, why can't they just port that over? It'd be a better placeholder for whatever new thing they want to do than this retainer system and it probably would have taken less work to implement.

I actually liked FFXI's auction house (compared to WoW and other games). It was like a cool little minigame.

 

[Lebron]

Dude! When I heard of the "retainer" thing, that's exactly what popped into my head! I played the beta of that shit.

Yeah, I'll admit, I played the hell out of that game back in the day.

 

[Haint]

There isn't an AH? Then what the fuck is there?

Yep, no AH, it is exactly as Mister described. It is 100% useless and absolutely mind blowing they would release such a system, in this state, even just for testing. A 3 year old could have foreseen the obvious failures, it is literally pre-school level common sense. Their interview responses suggest they weren't even planning on having a search function, overwhelming feedback has just forced their hand to "look into it".

 

[Khrno]

Theres not an AH at all period? I thought the quote was "no ah at launch, we will work on it to improve it until its ready though, we suck, have fun not xping"

EDIT: SOrry, typo

There will be one, the place in the cities is already prepared, but SE were too busy getting hookers and coke or something, so it won't be implemented until a further version update.

 

[Lebron]

If you think about it too, it's the EXACT concept of a standard auction house only with purposefully obfuscated and frustrating to use. It's a marketplace with no searchability or categorization whatsoever.

Yeah, that's the thing too. It's just amazing the amount of lazy ass developing they've pulled for this game. The good thing for them is a lot of it can be fixed with updates, but some of these issues should have been addressed from the get to. You would think this was their first crack at the MMO market the way they've been running things.

 

[Londa]

lol there is a building with the Auction House symbol. But whatever. People wanna rage anyways.

 

[demosthenes]

It's their revolutionary new retainer system!

Basically, every player can recruit a "retainer", which is an NPC that is more or less their "bank"; the retainer can hold 80 items, and you can set up a bazaar on them. Then the player goes over to a special zone in the city called the "Market Wards", which are instanced with arbitrary names (eg, "East Market Ward", etc.). You can then place your retainer in the market ward and set up their bazaar as you would your own.

From a customer perspective, if I want to buy a new Staff, I have to:

• Walk over to the market wards section in the city. This section is not marked in any way. It's just in a random spot and it will put up a small notification in the corner of your screen
• Go into the main menu and hit "Enter Market Wards"
• Choose the first market ward on the list (because that's where everybody puts all their retainers because it's the default option)
• I then zone into the market wards. Hundreds of NPCs spawn around me all with bazaars, just standing there.
• I start inspecting random bazaars to see if any of them happen to be selling staves (probably not), if any of them are upgrades to my own (probably not), and if they're overly expensive compared to nearby retainers also selling staves (screw you SE).
• All this inspecting is a COMPLETELY manual process. You can not "search" the market wards. You can not even filter down the area by category. You literally have to check each bazaar randomly, hoping to find something you want.

Have you ever seen The Amazing Race? Remember the "Who can find a needle in the hay bales" roadblock? It's like that only the needles are smaller, the hay bales are covered in shit, and everything has a 2 second lag.

This is by design.

The defense I've seen for this has been "It's like window shopping in real life, isn't it awesome?!?!"

 

[Ferrio]

Never ever ever believe prerelease MMO promises. This goes for every MMO that has ever released. That stuff might make it in... but it might not.

 

[demosthenes]

lol there is a building with the Auction House symbol. But whatever. People wanna rage anyways.

Ah I see, thanks, first time I've read this.

Never ever ever believe prerelease MMO promises. This goes for every MMO that has ever released. That stuff might make it in... but it might not.

I learned that with Vanguard: Saga of Heroes :lol

 

[falastini]

lol there is a building with the Auction House symbol. But whatever. People wanna rage anyways.

lol, maybe because the devs themselves said they weren't going to implement an AH any time soon, who cares if they have an icon in game... what's your excuse this time? bad translation of the interview? the game is better without an AH?

 

[Mister Zimbu]

lol there is a building with the Auction House symbol. But whatever. People wanna rage anyways.

Regarding Final Fantasy XIV and the market battle system is something we would like to consider the equilevent to the auction house we had in Final Fantasy XI. Only that you'll also be able to fix your equipment and things like that. It is something we really want people to enjoy. Also after the release of the game we will see how it goes and for example find out what kind of search options players will want and need and improve the situation. We don't really want to introduce the auctionhouse from the beginning because that is going to determine the economy system. So we want to improve it slowly and adjust it accordingly.

of course we all know at this point that SE isn't really interested in improving anything

 

[Haint]

lol there is a building with the Auction House symbol. But whatever. People wanna rage anyways.

I don't think anyone is saying there won't ever be an AH, just describing the system people are very likely going to be dealing with in OB and retail for the first version update or 3...

 

[Lebron]

lol there is a building with the Auction House symbol. But whatever. People wanna rage anyways.

edit: Actually, I'm sorry. I'm not trying to be an ass. Just irritated.

 

[Khrno]

Just wow...

 

[Londa]

Ah I see, thanks, first time I've read this.

Also, how did I get hate? Never once did I say the AH will be release at retail. I was just letting people know that it will come, because some of you guys were saying its never going to be there.

*shakes her head at the reaction and exaggeration constantly thrown her way*

 

[notworksafe]

lol there is a building with the Auction House symbol. But whatever. People wanna rage anyways.

There's also a post by SQE saying no AH at launch.

 

[Londa]

There's also a post by SQE saying no AH at launch.

where in that quote did I say it would be at launch????????????????????????????

 

[Velion]

lol there is a building with the Auction House symbol. But whatever. People wanna rage anyways.

That kind've reminded me how we're just getting fixes for some of FF11 problems 7-8 years down the line and finally getting the expansion they released 2-3 years ago finished ..can't use any excuse of "Not having the time to" since they release 5, yes 5 $9.99 "Mini Expansions" in the same time.

Point is SE is very slow on implementing "Promises". We may see an unfixed version of FFXI implemented in the game in a year or so.

But I guess SE is having development Surplus.

 

[Londa]

I don't think anyone is saying there won't ever be an AH, just describing the system people are very likely going to be dealing with in OB and retail for the first version update or 3...

So then why did you say this? Why didn't you say. No AH at launch, not no AH.

Yep, no AH, it is exactly as Mister described. It is 100% useless and absolutely mind blowing they would release such a system, in this state, even just for testing. A 3 year old could have foreseen the obvious failures, it is literally pre-school level common sense. Their interview responses suggest they weren't even planning on having a search function, overwhelming feedback has just forced their hand to "look into it".

 

[Gravijah]

where in that quote did I say it would be at launch????????????????????????????

If it's not gonna be in at launch, people are allowed to rage.

 

[Zomba13]

The thing I really don't get is that FFXI is a pretty good MMO. Not everyones favourite but a solid enough MMO now. All SE had to do was take the basic framework of FFXI, improve the stuff the players liked about it, change the bad stuff to make them like it and throw in some new things to make it a different game and not just FFXI with better graphics.
They've got the throwing stuff in part right with the new world, different take on the job system the guild leve system and improved crafting/gathering systems but instead of the 'improve the good things from ffxi' step they decided to make it 'ignore what we learned from ffxi and ignore our beta testers feedback'

I think it would also help a great deal if they were just straight with us. Like saying there will be no AH at launch because the system isn't complete/fully functioning yet and the surplus/fatigue thing is to stop people reaching the cap soon as we have no end game content ready. Then again they might not be the reasons for this stupid things.

There are some things that FFXIV is doing right though, lets not forget that. The world is amazing, it looks great and the seamless transitions are very impressive (well in the beta it's really just City >field >cave but its still really cool). The customisation of armour is cool too with the dye and finishes. You could be a mage clothed in pink if you wanted to that's pretty cool. The skill system and the multiple jobs thing is just as cool as it was in XI. Even more so really as I can put cure onto my Archer and use it to heal without gimping myself by subbing /whm.

Edit: grrrrr. I need to stop checking the FFXIV boards on gfaqs (I know, I know, lolgfaqs). There are people there defending surplus and the lack of AH at launch. Their biggest defence is 'lol level other jobs' and 'lol you shouldn't be playing it anyway, go back to Mass Effect 2 ololol' and stuff like 'Maybe you should play the game before you bash the system'.