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[skit_data]

Wow, never thought there would be such a differing opinion on Clive being alive or not.

I never took it in any other way than him being alive and that he lives to tell the tale. I really don't see the point in the end scene with the book if he's dead because its foreshadowed by him getting the quill and Dion "looking forward to reading his story".
It's a bit vague so I guess you could interpret it as him dying but to me it's clear Clive, Jill and the others lives, whereas Joshua and Dion dies.

Would be interesting to hear Yoshi-P or someone else comment on the matter because people seem to interpret it in all kinds of ways.

 

[Go_Ly_Dow]

Wow, never thought there would be such a differing opinion on Clive being alive or not.

I never took it in any other way than him being alive and that he lives to tell the tale. I really don't see the point in the end scene with the book if he's dead because its foreshadowed by him getting the quill and Dion "looking forward to reading his story".
It's a bit vague so I guess you could interpret it as him dying but to me it's clear Clive, Jill and the others lives, whereas Joshua dies.

Would be interesting to hear Yoshi-P or someone else comment on the matter because people seem to interpret it in all kinds of ways.

Yeah I'd guess within a couple of years Yoshida will give comment. Maybe sooner.

 

[Go_Ly_Dow]

Clive is dead af lol yall are on some copium.

Eh I don't think it's all copium. It's just either Clive or Joshua had to finish the book. We don't know for certain which one survived but we can assume one of them did at least. The devs foreshadowed up until the final act Clive would write the chronicles. He was also the narrator.

 

[Neolombax]

I think Clive's dead. Jill sensed his Dominant energy disappear, same way Clive knew Jill was still alive after Barnabas captured her. Book was written by Undying order.

 

[Bojji]

Joshua is alive and Clive is dead. That's how I see it.

I really don't like that they killed Dion.

They really like to make sad endings in latest games, FFXV was fucking NUTS and they killed EVERYONE, this time it's not that bad but still, we lost 2/3 best characters.

 

[Lokaum D+]

Joshua is alive and Clive is dead. That's how I see it.

I really don't like that they killed Dion.

They really like to make sad endings in latest games, FFXV was fucking NUTS and they killed EVERYONE, this time it's not that bad but still, we lost 2/3 best characters.

Dion didnt die

 

[Bojji]

Dion didnt die

Really? There is nothing about him in the ending that suggest otherwise.

 

[skit_data]

Dion didnt die

Did we even play the same game?

Would actually be pretty funny if they come out now a few weeks later and go

"Yeah, just so you know you get different endings depending on your actions etc"

 

[Werewolf Jones]

I clapped my hands raw at this focus tested garbage.

 

[ShadyAcshuns]

He dead. What else would you expect, going up against a god?

 

[Lokaum D+]

Did we even play the same game?

Would actually be pretty funny if they come out now a few weeks later and go

"Yeah, just so you know you get different endings depending on your actions etc"

did u see his body ? dont remember they showing him dead, but the ending is open to interpretation, FF16 is a game that isnt afraid to show dead ppl ( Ewin, Murdok, Tyler, Hanna, Cid, Banedikta, Hugo, Anabella, Olivier, Sylvestre, Slepnir, Barnabas, Joshua ), every ppl that we asumed that has died off screen were actually alive ( Joshua, Wade cant remember anyone else ) , so is plausible to belive that Dion and Clive are alive, also Dion is a Dragoon, he knows how to fall.

 

[Paulistano]

The english translation is really bad, if you guys look at the french translation that is based in the japanese text (or use your phone to translate the japanese text on the tv) you will see that Clive used the magic Risen on Joshua and then you will understand that Ultima wanted to use this magic to revive his people.

So I totally belive Joshua is alive, Clive too.

 

[skit_data]

did u see his body ? dont remember they showing him dead, but the ending is open to interpretation, FF16 is a game that isnt afraid to show dead ppl ( Ewin, Murdok, Tyler, Hanna, Cid, Banedikta, Hugo, Anabella, Olivier, Sylvestre, Slepnir, Barnabas, Joshua ), every ppl that we asumed that has died off screen were actually alive ( Joshua, Wade cant remember anyone else ) , so is plausible to belive that Dion and Clive are alive, also Dion is a Dragoon, he knows how to fall.

I presume him dead mostly because it seems like his main purpose in life was to avenge his father, which he did. Saying "It is done, father...." while falling back first into huge explosions from a great height after channeling extreme amounts of Aether in order to save the others and the world.
I don't know but to me he died right there and the last we see of him is his falling dead body disappearing into the smoke, effectively showing his dead body on screen.

 

[Lokaum D+]

The english translation is really bad, if you guys look at the french translation that is based in the japanese text (or use your phone to translate the japanese text on the tv) you will see that Clive used the magic Risen on Joshua and then you will understand that Ultima wanted to use this magic to revive his people.

So I totally belive Joshua is alive, Clive too.

Yeah, and then he used magic teleportation on Joshua before he exploded the whole damn cristal 15 seconds after casting "ressurection" on his brother, make sense

 

[ShadyAcshuns]

Joshua is alive and Clive is dead. That's how I see it.

I really don't like that they killed Dion.

Exactly how I see it. I fully expect the dlc to be about Joshua.

 

[Lokaum D+]

I presume him dead mostly because it seems like his main purpose in life was to avenge his father, which he did. Saying "It is done, father...." while falling back first into huge explosions from a great height after channeling extreme amounts of Aether in order to save the others and the world.
I don't know but to me he died right there and the last we see of him is his falling dead body disappearing into the smoke, effectively showing his dead body on screen.

yeah i don't know if closing your eyes is really proof of death but ok, like i said the ending is open for interpretation.

 

[skit_data]

yeah i don't know if closing your eyes is really proof of death but ok, like i said the ending is open for interpretation.

Its more about the finality of his words and probably falling on his head due to fainting but anyway it's actually pretty cool that people see it differently because I actually complained about the ending being a wierd mixture of being too om the nose while at the same time too vague in the OT.

It's entirely possible I'm just too set in the way I saw the ending play out, its more interesting to see peoples different interpretations than everybody going "well, thats that"

 

[Lokaum D+]

Its more about the finality of his words and probably falling on his head due to fainting but anyway it's actually pretty cool that people see it differently because I actually complained about the ending being a wierd mixture of being too om the nose while at the same time too vague in the OT.

It's entirely possible I'm just too set in the way I saw the ending play out, its more interesting to see peoples different interpretations than everybody going "well, thats that"

i really think there's more to Dion than just avenging his father's, Dion is one of the best supporting characters in the entire franchise imo even though he had such low screen time. I don't think he is dead, he really had desire to do right for his people and his kingdom i like to believe he is alive and king of Sanbreque in a future DLC or something

 

[skit_data]

i really think there's more to Dion than just avenging her father's, Dion is one of the best supporting characters in the entire franchise imo even though he had such low screen time. I don't think he is dead, he really had desire to do right for his people and his kingdom i like to believe he is alive and king of Sanbreque in a future DLC or something

Oh I agree, I definitely think he's probably the most underrated character of the whole cast (I think I wrote that in an edit in the OT as well).

 

[Zephyranthes]

The writing approach to this ending is so strange to me. The storytelling of FFXVI is incredibly straightforward and unambiguous for the most part....the only major twist being Joshua surviving the prologue, and even that is cleared up fairly early on. So why then would the writers opt for such an abstruse and unclear ending? It's like Tetsuya Nomura hijacked the last 10 minutes of the game.

 

[Bojji]

The english translation is really bad, if you guys look at the french translation that is based in the japanese text (or use your phone to translate the japanese text on the tv) you will see that Clive used the magic Risen on Joshua and then you will understand that Ultima wanted to use this magic to revive his people.

So I totally belive Joshua is alive, Clive too.

What other sense is for him to "heal" him, to restore his corpse to good looks?

After getting Utima power he definitely had the ability to heal Joshua, Clive also did that before destroying magic.

 

[MagiusNecros]

Clive is dead af lol yall are on some copium.

Is Zenos Galvus dead tho. That's the big question. The world may never know.

Sounds to me like Clive can either be dead or alive and is subject to player interpretation....but then that just becomes a writer's copout for having an otherwise shitty and lackluster ending.

 

[RCU005]

Another take is that it was a last act of love for his brother to clean up his wound so his body was in a dignified state and free from Ultima's mark.

This is why I hate that FFXVI got an ambiguous ending, and it was not a game for it. The story was never told in a way that a vague ending would make sense.

Great game, horrible ending! It really made me not want to pay it again yet. I loved the gameplay, but it sucks that what awaits at the end is just trash! And devs need to do Jill proper justice!

FFXV butchered Stella and now FFXVI butchered Jill. How disappointing.

 

[Synless]

My $.02, He clearly healed Joshua up. Clive said he had the power to right the wrongs of everything even if it kills him… which is exactly the kind of shit he did. Bro is dead.

 

[ShadyAcshuns]

Eh I don't think it's all copium. It's just either Clive or Joshua had to finish the book. We don't know for certain which one survived but we can assume one of them did at least. The devs foreshadowed up until the final act Clive would write the chronicles. He was also the narrator.

It's pretty obvious for anyone who beat the game that it was Joshua, after Clive healed him. Why make a cutscene of it otherwise?

 

[Lokaum D+]

he clearly didnt resurrect, he just healed Joshua, he can't fully control ultimas power, don't make sense to ressurect a person and 10 seconds later explode the place where they are and no one ever said "oh" after a successfull ressurection.

 

[Unknown Soldier]

I clapped my hands raw at this focus tested garbage.

Both are literally references to Lord of the Rings LMAO

 

[Unknown Soldier]

Realistic answer:

The ending is ambiguous because Square Enix hasn't decided who will be the protagonist of XVI-2 yet

 

[cash_longfellow]

I clapped my hands raw at this focus tested garbage.

Do you actually have anything to contribute to the conversation, or are you here just to troll?

 

[cash_longfellow]

I think Clive's dead. Jill sensed his Dominant energy disappear, same way Clive knew Jill was still alive after Barnabas captured her. Book was written by Undying order.

Ahh, interesting take with Undying Order. Didn’t put much thought into that

 

[cash_longfellow]

Its more about the finality of his words and probably falling on his head due to fainting but anyway it's actually pretty cool that people see it differently because I actually complained about the ending being a wierd mixture of being too om the nose while at the same time too vague in the OT.

It's entirely possible I'm just too set in the way I saw the ending play out, its more interesting to see peoples different interpretations than everybody going "well, thats that"

This is exactly why I started the thread too…the differing perspectives are really interesting to read.

 

[Unknown Soldier]

Seeing Metias go out like that should be obvious proof that Clive is dead, if seeing him turning to stone wasn't obvious enough already

It's never explained what Metias is but it's probably something Ultima's civilization built and it's like the orbiting magic station or someshit

 

[cash_longfellow]

The writing approach to this ending is so strange to me. The storytelling of FFXVI is incredibly straightforward and unambiguous for the most part....the only major twist being Joshua surviving the prologue, and even that is cleared up fairly early on. So why then would the writers opt for such an abstruse and unclear ending? It's like Tetsuya Nomura hijacked the last 10 minutes of the game.

But it’s really not that straightforward at all. Especially if you read into the lore. There’s a reason they had a guy (Harpo) that writes and had written all the knowledge of the world. If he wasn’t an important figure to the story, they sure as hell would not have added a trophy for leveling him up lol. It’s beyond me how people play Final Fantasy, or any such game in the same or similar genre, and completely skip the lore that is provided.

 

[Werewolf Jones]

Both are literally references to Lord of the Rings LMAO

Even worse then.

Do you actually have anything to contribute to the conversation, or are you here just to troll?

Having a negative opinion of FF XVI is trolling? I'm not here to discuss the ending to this bad game if that's what you mean so I'll stop after this post.

 

[Horatius]

tbh any "didn't use raise on his brother" interpretation would require what amounts to total character assassination of clive, there is no universe in which the clive we know doesn't do that for his brother upon learning the raise spell, regardless of the consequences to himself, so i definitely think he saved joshua before remaking the world no matter what.

then to me clive's dialogue after the fact overtly states that even the mythos vessel wasn't actually designed to survive the casting of the spell itself; this lines up with ultima earlier talking about keeping the "used up husk" of his previous vessel, the one you fight. and it makes sense too, ultima doesn't care whether the vessel survives, he just needs it to complete the spell and then discards it. so giving mythos enough aether to do more than that is pointless.

this is satisfying storytelling; there is a cost to that much power, so much so that ultima and his civilization entirely discarded their material existence, then instigated a multi-thousand-year-plan to create new vessels (more than once, by implication) in order to be able to use it. if clive suddenly gets off scott free, what was all the fuss about? ultima could have just tanked it himself, would've lost a hand for it.

so no, in that moment on the beach, i think clive knows he's sacrificed himself for his brother and the world, and is at peace, his only remaining thoughts being of jill.

this is thematically clean, satisfying narratively and preserves the dramatic emotion of the finale without neutering it by going "sike! he's fine".

so i think it's all pretty much overt: joshua lives, clive dies, joshua wrote the book. that's the best ending imo.

really don't get the who wrote the book stuff as needing to be ambiguous, a lot of the evidence is like "clive said he'd write a book" but like... not only does that interpretation assassinate his character (chose to not save his brother when he could, saved himself, but then wrote a book in his brother's name to make up for it? or did save his brother but still wrote a book under his name?), ruin the drama of the ending (sike! either clive is fine or both joshua and clive are fine! everyone rejoice!), and everything else that happened... but on a basic level people say they'll do a lot of stuff before they die, it doesn't mean they get to. he said he'd write a book if he came back from the fight with ultima. he didn't come back, so he didn't write the book. it's a very weird piece of discussion to me, almost mass fan psychosis level with how many people believe it lol.

 

[cash_longfellow]

Even worse then.


Having a negative opinion of FF XVI is trolling? I'm not here to discuss the ending to this bad game if that's what you mean so I'll stop after this post.

Try harder…your post was a one liner saying “I clapped my hands raw at this focus tested garbage.”. Gtfoh trying to gaslight someone and make me the bad guy for calling your ass out. You want to dislike the game, that’s fine, I’m with it and I respect that. Explain yourself instead of trying to derail the thread with a troll post…and that’s exactly what it was.

 

[cash_longfellow]

tbh any "didn't use raise on his brother" interpretation would require what amounts to total character assassination of clive, there is no universe in which the clive we know doesn't do that for his brother upon learning the raise spell, regardless of the consequences to himself, so i definitely think he saved joshua before remaking the world no matter what.

then to me clive's dialogue after the fact overtly states that even the mythos vessel wasn't actually designed to survive the casting of the spell itself; this lines up with ultima earlier talking about keeping the "used up husk" of his previous vessel, the one you fight. and it makes sense too, ultima doesn't care whether the vessel survives, he just needs it to complete the spell and then discards it. so giving mythos enough aether to do more than that is pointless.

this is satisfying storytelling; there is a cost to that much power, so much so that ultima and his civilization entirely discarded their material existence, then instigated a multi-thousand-year-plan to create new vessels (more than once, by implication) in order to be able to use it. if clive suddenly gets off scott free, what was all the fuss about? ultima could have just tanked it himself, would've lost a hand for it.

so no, in that moment on the beach, i think clive knows he's sacrificed himself for his brother and the world, and is at peace, his only remaining thoughts being of jill.

this is thematically clean, satisfying narratively and preserves the dramatic emotion of the finale without neutering it by going "sike! he's fine".

so i think it's all pretty much overt: joshua lives, clive dies, joshua wrote the book. that's the best ending imo.

really don't get the who wrote the book stuff as needing to be ambiguous, a lot of the evidence is like "clive said he'd write a book" but like... not only does that interpretation assassinate his character (chose to not save his brother when he could, saved himself, but then wrote a book in his brother's name to make up for it? or did save his brother but still wrote a book under his name?), ruin the drama of the ending (sike! either clive is fine or both joshua and clive are fine! everyone rejoice!), and everything else that happened... but on a basic level people say they'll do a lot of stuff before they die, it doesn't mean they get to. he said he'd write a book if he came back from the fight with ultima. he didn't come back, so he didn't write the book. it's a very weird piece of discussion to me, almost mass fan psychosis level with how many people believe it lol.

This is a fantastic post and exactly what I wanted to read from the Gaf folks. I especially like the “it's a very weird piece of discussion to me, almost mass fan psychosis level with how many people believe it lol” part…maybe this many people believe it because it makes sense? Then again maybe not?…
That’s exactly why I love individualized opinions and how the human brain works differently between people.

 

[fallingdove]

I prefer to think that Joshua survived. Clive was responsible for the events at Phoenix Gate and failed to act as shield for Joshua. In the end Clive succeeded as shield and protected everyone he loved, allowing Joshua to live and write his story

 

[Madflavor]

I think Clive's dead. Jill sensed his Dominant energy disappear, same way Clive knew Jill was still alive after Barnabas captured her. Book was written by Undying order.

Nope. Jill could no longer sense Clive's Dominant energy because Clive destroyed all magic in the world. No magic = No Dominants. No Dominants = Jill can't sense shit.

My $.02, He clearly healed Joshua up. Clive said he had the power to right the wrongs of everything even if it kills him… which is exactly the kind of shit he did. Bro is dead.

And then Joshua survived the explosion of Origin, survived the few thousand foot fall to the lake, survived not drowning in his unconscious state, and then wrote a book titled "Final Fantasy" even though he was dead when Clive uttered those words to Ultima. Clive destroyed all magic, so Joshua could not transform into Phoenix and fly away to safety.

What other sense is for him to "heal" him, to restore his corpse to good looks?

After getting Utima power he definitely had the ability to heal Joshua, Clive also did that before destroying magic.

Not leaving him as a bloodied mess with a giant hole in chest? The game established that Clive deeply loved his brother. People in real life, today and throughout all of human history have cleaned corpses out of respect. You could also say he "tried" to Raise him, but didn't have the power. If Joshua was resurrected, there's no real reason for the story to keep him in his unconscious state, especially with the way Origin exploded right after, and with all magic gone, preventing Joshua from transforming into Phoenix and saving himself from deadly fall.

You're also assuming Clive had the power to raise him, when we know without Leviathan he was an incomplete vessel. That could change with the inevitable Leviathan DLC that could potentially extend the ending.

Wow, never thought there would be such a differing opinion on Clive being alive or not.

I never took it in any other way than him being alive and that he lives to tell the tale. I really don't see the point in the end scene with the book if he's dead because its foreshadowed by him getting the quill and Dion "looking forward to reading his story".
It's a bit vague so I guess you could interpret it as him dying but to me it's clear Clive, Jill and the others lives, whereas Joshua and Dion dies.

Would be interesting to hear Yoshi-P or someone else comment on the matter because people seem to interpret it in all kinds of ways.

Because you'd either have to be unaware of all the evidence and symbolism the game laid out to support his survival, or intentionally ignore them in order to support your personal preference that Clive is dead.

As someone who's been discussing this ending for over 2 weeks now, nobody has come up with a compelling reason Clive is dead, and Joshua lived and wrote the book. Any theory that Joshua lives is riddled with plot holes and major assumptions in order to lend credit to it. The same can't be said for Clive surviving, that has a laundry list of reasons why he survived. Reasons that all live up and support one another.

 

[Auto_aim1]

Clive died and destroyed all the magic in the world. I thought it was obvious when their descendants had to rub stones together to generate fire. Joshua probably lived and wrote the book.

 

[Zephyranthes]

You're also assuming Clive had the power to raise him, when we know without Leviathan he was an incomplete vessel. That could change with the inevitable Leviathan DLC that could potentially extend the ending.

I would like to think that the folks at CBU3 will know better than to gate a proper explanation of the game's ending behind DLC, as it would be a tacit admission that the game was unfinished at launch, and I doubt they want that stigma associated with FF16 after what happened with FF15. I wouldn't be surprised to see a Leviathan DLC in some form, but I think it would be far more likely to be a self-contained story with no significant impact on the base game's narrative.

 

[Madflavor]

I would like to think that the folks at CBU3 will know better than to gate a proper explanation of the game's ending behind DLC, as it would be a tacit admission that the game was unfinished at launch, and I doubt they want that stigma associated with FF16 after what happened with FF15. I wouldn't be surprised to see a Leviathan DLC in some form, but I think it would be far more likely to be a self-contained story with no significant impact on the base game's narrative.

Thing is you can't have Clive absorb Leviathan, be a completed vessel, and not in some way change how the ending unfolds. I mean you technically could, but that would be lazy writing.

 

[skit_data]

Because you'd either have to be unaware of all the evidence and symbolism the game laid out to support his survival, or intentionally ignore them in order to support your personal preference that Clive is dead

You're barking up the wrong tree

 

[Hudo]

I clapped my hands raw at this focus tested garbage.

It would've been far more kino if it just straight up name-dropped "Hironobu Sakaguchi" as author. But Square doesn't have the balls.

 

[Valonquar]

If you played FFXIV, you'd know for 100% certain Clive isn't dead, and if there's a DLC Ultima will somehow be a party member, but look different.

 

[Madflavor]

You're barking up the wrong tree

Let them come.

 

[Zephyranthes]

Thing is you can't have Clive absorb Leviathan, be a completed vessel, and not in some way change how the ending unfolds. I mean you technically could, but that would be lazy writing.

But that's assuming that the DLC will have anything to do with Clive absorbing Leviathan. I think it's more likely to just be the story of how Leviathan the Lost became "the Lost", set in the distant past. It may provide some additional context for Ultima's actions in the base game, but the final outcome would be left as is.

 

[pleaseinsertdisctwo]

Remember when every other FF from VII onwards (aka since 1997) that isn’t from this team included a gorgeous CG cutscene in the ending? Me too

 

[ergem]

I want to see the other continents that were talked about in the game in the DLC.

 

[Azurro]

I just finished the game, I was really sad that it seemed he never made it back to Jill and died on the beach.

However I was not paying attention to the book's name. I think he survived and went on to write the book.

I would have liked more of the epilogue though. I wanted to see a bit of Gav's life, I wanted to see Jill happy, what happened with his uncle, and if Dion managed to survive.