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[jbug617]

You guys could have had more matches of Marvel if the tournament standard was 2/3. Like kirblar said, 3/5 is an awful tournament standard

remember Final Round initially wanted to run 2/3 to save time but people cried over it.

 

[MrDaravon]

You people bitching about Marvel should get off the forum/stream and actually get good at the game. Maybe actually playing the game might be more fun for you!

I've never really understood this argument in general; this is like saying people shouldn't complain about their sports team losing when they should just go out and play the sport themselves.

 

[KingItachi]

You guys could have had more matches of Marvel if the tournament standard was 2/3. Like kirblar said, 3/5 is an awful tournament standard

It is not they are not catering to you.

 

[rar]

And streaming the right matches is going to be a nightmare anyway unless you schedule time in a certain manner or get a dedicated stream. Problems all around. So yeah, everyone is gonna be complaining in some manner.

i just think they should try to space it out so that top 16 to 8 for the big games are shown. i think the more memorable matches tend to pop up in that part of the bracket, so if it's streamed you're more less likely to miss good matches

 

[enzo_gt]

Winners: FChamp, Dieminion, Flocker, RayRay
Losers: ChrisG, Neo, Justin Wong, Moonz

Is this confirmed or are you speculating?

RayRay and Dieminion in Top 8 winners is kind-of shocking but Dieminion is smart and if you don't have a lot of experience against RayRay, you'll likely get magnetic molested.

 

[-tetsuo-]

Everytime I try to play DOTA, I get wrecked by bots, have no idea what to buy in the shop and then quit. Not in that exact order, but those always happen.

 

[scytheavatar]

Where the hell are you guys getting the numbers for the TTT2 turnout anyway? SixFortyFive mentioned that it got 190 for pre-reg, while UMvC3 got 320. I find it extremely hard to believe that TTT2 would get the 300 or even 500+ numbers that some of you guys are claiming.

Is this confirmed or are you speculating?

RayRay and Dieminion in Top 8 winners is kind-of shocking but Dieminion is smart and if you don't have a lot of experience against RayRay, you'll likely get magnetic molested.

It's confirmed.

 

[Teknopathetic]

"I am not "bad" at DOTA 2 although that definition may vary. But I am definitely not pro either, last time DBR had the rations I was Platinum but I went up a bit since then. I don't think they do those ratings anymore."


Platinum is basically bad tier.

 

[Hyun Sai]

Anyone got the final numbers of entrants for each game ?

 

[SloaneRisette]

This is a community that barely handles preregistering. Let's not get ahead of ourselves.

Well at least we got to DVD and aren't stuck on Betamax or Laserdisc or something.

 

[vulva]

It is not they are not catering to you.

Most of what I've said has been heavily tongue in cheek.

 

[DEATH™]

I KNOCK EM DEAD

I NEED DAT

 

[Chindogg]

You guys could have had more matches of Marvel if the tournament standard was 2/3. Like kirblar said, 3/5 is an awful tournament standard

Marvel went 3/5 because of how often random blowups happen. Its meant to be a bit more fair for everyone involved.

 

[KingItachi]

Lets go GM.

 

[AAK]

Complaining about this shit is stupid for any game and the "now you guys suffer too!" mentality is so so much more dumb.

I'm not saying suffer, I'm saying Deal with it. If you can do a better job at giving parity for all games getting stream time than Larry Shinblanka, let him know.

 

[Dahbomb]

Is this confirmed or are you speculating?

RayRay and Dieminion in Top 8 winners is kind-of shocking but Dieminion is smart and if you don't have a lot of experience against RayRay, you'll likely get magnetic molested.

No this is accurate. RayRay beat Justin Wong to qualify in winners.

Wait a minute... Ryu and The Machine in top 8 Marvel!

 

[enzo_gt]

Where the hell are you guys getting the numbers for the TTT2 turnout anyway? SixFortyFive mentioned that it got 190 for pre-reg, while UMvC3 got 320. I find it extremely hard to believe that TTT2 would get the 300 or even 500+ numbers that some of you guys are claiming.

It's confirmed.

Thanks.

People are saying 500 because that's the cap they expected, that's not the actual turnout. Kinda been lost with where people are getting 500 too.

 

[ViewtifulJC]

My DOTA2 skills are about on par with Tekno's Q3A skills

 

[Chindogg]

Everytime I try to play DOTA, I get wrecked by bots, have no idea what to buy in the shop and then quit. Not in that exact order, but those always happen.

This should help you get started.

 

[KingItachi]

Most of what I've said has been heavily tongue in cheek.

My bad Vulva.

 

[Kadey]

Let's go Lee players!

 

[GeoNeo]

Winners: FChamp, Dieminion, Flocker, RayRay
Losers: ChrisG, Neo, Justin Wong, Moonz

Holy shit so freaking good. So so many upsets goddamn!

 

[Teknopathetic]

"My DOTA2 skills are about on par with Tekno's Q3A skills"

It sounds like you're a pretty good player, then.

 

[kirblar]

Why the Tekken community wanted 3/5

http://www.avoidingthepuddle.com/ne...-to-be-changed-to-35-tournament-standard.html

Regardless, people are unhappy their favorite game didn't get stream time for top 32 or whatever, that's what we have been enduring for 3 years now. This happens in one major and so meant people get withdrawal symptoms. It's kinda pathetic.

Well, let us look at his rationale:

Tekken has always had smaller turnouts in numbers in comparison to that of UMVC3 and SF4 AE, and even other Capcom and Namco games. The 3/5 game standard would not run longer than any other 2D game [even when run at 2/3].

Well, clearly, that's not the case here. edit: (oh, it has 190, not 500? ok.) And you shouldn't be thinking "we'll never get their numbers" - you should be working to make your game, scene and community accessible to new players. Your goal should be to make the game attractive to new players and spectators. 3D games have an unfortunate handicap due to the relative nature of the 3D medium, and will likely never have the 2D game numbers, but that shouldn't stop you from trying to grow it.

Surely the rounds are 80 seconds, and could last a long time, but also can be found on the other end of the spectrum with matches running by so fast. The 3 games can be over with as little as 9 full combos and a mix-up.

Sure. But this is like expecting most marvel rounds to be over in 15 game seconds. You do see many games go down to the 30-seond or less mark in Marvel, or even to Time Outs. He's again making assumptions about what things will look like that don't bear out in reality.

Combo damage is just too high in TTT2, as simple as a couple of hits and then one launch to Tag Assault and then wall combo can be the end of the round (without being able to even hit the tag button), and with more moves leading to a combo potential- Tekken players know this, and when it does happen, you know you never lost to the player, but to the game. This is not what it means to be competitive fighting pro gamer.

Bullshit. You lost to the player. If one wrong read leads to death? Don't make that one wrong read.

The momentum of the game can shift so fast, away from you, just like UMVC3. it’s not about option selection like Street Fighter, there is not ONE clear cut answer to every situation, there are several. A player who plays without fear, calculation or knowledge is in a complete gamble of his win, it could work out for him or it could completely throw him into a loss; the other competitor is playing extremely cautious because of knowledge and calculation but falls to a launcher and loses a round, having to play catch up with the life. Tekken was never this risky, and even with two characters, the risk factor is weighted heavily on the player who plays without fear, knowledge and calculation.

Again, yes, Tekken has volatile damage. But that's part of the appeal, no? Letting the "worse" player win isn't a bad thing - you wouldn't get pot monsters if they never won a round. It already has 3/5 rounds for this reason.

Tekken is a game of calculation, adaptation, sometimes taking necessary risk without much reward, and taking unnecessary risk for much reward. Some call it the chess of fighting games. I think a game with such an element of intellect should be played at a set which displays the finer talent of the competitors rather than who can find openings for a launch.

Again, this is not necessarily a good thing for viewers. Upsets are hype. Games that create massive amounts of salt and pop offs tend to make things exciting.

We want the scene to grow and 2/3 game format is killing off our established players, which in turn, is slowly diminishing the amount of new players to step in the scene. Established players know how to play, and when they lose in such a manor, their morale to continue on falls strongly. We need our players to feel they were not cheated out of a win.

The biggest thing that can kill any scene is difficulty recruiting new players. Actively shifting to a tournament format that's very difficult to watch as a spectator (due to the length of the matches) is not a way to help grow your scene.

Tournament organizers should want a 3/5 tournament format for Tekken. You have better matches, more rewarded victories, you have players coming back for a taste of vengeance rather than players who feel that the state of the game is not worth their time.

This is why many competitive gamers make awful game designers. The things he wants (to win every time) are at odds with what is likely best for the impression the game leaves on viewers at home.

 

[soakrates]

I've never played a Tekken game seriously because 3D fighting games are inherently inferior to 2D fighting games:
http://insomnia.ac/commentary/domination_101/2d_vs_3d/

That piece is more about what sets 2D games apart from 3D games than what makes them better than 3D games. Moreover, movement in 3D space is hardly the only defining aspect of 3D fighting games. Not to mention that projectiles and long-range attacks have been introduced successfully into 3D fighters since then.

 

[Karsticles]

Why the Tekken community wanted 3/5

http://www.avoidingthepuddle.com/ne...-to-be-changed-to-35-tournament-standard.html

Regardless, people are unhappy their favorite game didn't get stream time for top 32 or whatever, that's what we have been enduring for 3 years now. This happens in one major and so meant people get withdrawal symptoms. It's kinda pathetic.

Why I feel Tekken Tag Tournament 2 should be changed to a 3/5 Tournament Standard, Just like UMVC3.

I stopped taking his opinion seriously here, but I'll be generous to you and read the rest.

Tekken has always had smaller turnouts in numbers in comparison to that of UMVC3 and SF4 AE, and even other Capcom and Namco games. The 3/5 game standard would not run longer than any other 2D game [even when run at 2/3].

His argument is literally "Tekken deserves more time per game than others to make up for fewer people caring about it."

Surely the rounds are 80 seconds, and could last a long time, but also can be found on the other end of the spectrum with matches running by so fast. The 3 games can be over with as little as 9 full combos and a mix-up.

A non-point, since this applies to all fighting games.

Combo damage is just too high in TTT2, as simple as a couple of hits and then one launch to Tag Assault and then wall combo can be the end of the round (without being able to even hit the tag button), and with more moves leading to a combo potential- Tekken players know this, and when it does happen, you know you never lost to the player, but to the game. This is not what it means to be competitive fighting pro gamer.

"Tekken is too random, more rounds will fix it." (note that this is not the Marvel argument, which is that 2 rounds is not enough time to get used to your opponent's team strategy)

The momentum of the game can shift so fast, away from you, just like UMVC3. it’s not about option selection like Street Fighter, there is not ONE clear cut answer to every situation, there are several. A player who plays without fear, calculation or knowledge is in a complete gamble of his win, it could work out for him or it could completely throw him into a loss; the other competitor is playing extremely cautious because of knowledge and calculation but falls to a launcher and loses a round, having to play catch up with the life. Tekken was never this risky, and even with two characters, the risk factor is weighted heavily on the player who plays without fear, knowledge and calculation.

This doesn't actually seem like an argument for 3/5; it's just commenting on the game.

Tekken is a game of calculation, adaptation, sometimes taking necessary risk without much reward, and taking unnecessary risk for much reward. Some call it the chess of fighting games. I think a game with such an element of intellect should be played at a set which displays the finer talent of the competitors rather than who can find openings for a launch.

Bolded for laughs. There are no "unnecessary risks" in chess, and if Tekken is such a thoughtful, calculating game, then surely it does not need more rounds to be a set of determining power. This argument conflicts with his previous two.

We want the scene to grow and 2/3 game format is killing off our established players, which in turn, is slowly diminishing the amount of new players to step in the scene. Established players know how to play, and when they lose in such a manor, their morale to continue on falls strongly. We need our players to feel they were not cheated out of a win.

Also not an argument, since presumably any fighting game suffers for having fewer rounds at a tournament. I'm sure everyone would love for Marvel to be a FT5, but it's just not happening.

Tournament organizers should want a 3/5 tournament format for Tekken. You have better matches, more rewarded victories, you have players coming back for a taste of vengeance rather than players who feel that the state of the game is not worth their time.

Also not an argument.

I actually don't see any arguments here in favor of Tekken in particular receiving this treatment aside from it being a random game that needs evening out from all the random things that happen, which isn't an answer to random.

That piece is more about what makes 2D games unique from 3D games than what makes them better than 3D games. Movement in 3D space is hardly the only defining aspect of 3D fighting games. Not to mention that projectiles and long-range attacks have been introduced successfully into 3D fighters since then.

The article isn't a "different but still good" one. It's clear here, and in his other articles (I've read them all - they're all good), that he thinks 2D > 3D, and I agree for the reasons stated there. There are projectiles in 3D fighting games, but they are the equivalent of Marvel beams, not fireballs. You saying this makes me think that you did not read the article closely enough, or that there are attacks which I have yet to see used in a 3D fighting game while it's on stream (feel free to link me to a video and prove me wrong).

 

[vulva]

My bad Vulva.

All good.


I still would be curious to know, in all seriousness, would people have rathered no Curly Mustache team tourney on Friday, if it meant better stream representation of top 16/32 action from all major games?

 

[rar]

"My DOTA2 skills are about on par with Tekno's Q3A skills"

It sounds like you're a pretty good player, then.

do you still play quake?

 

[DryEyeRelief]

This isn't the first time this has happened either, Marvel community (here anyways) is mostly upset this had to happen at the most stacked Marvel tournament yet that's run on 360. Plus all of the crazy upsets we're hearing about are just a cocktease really. It's just something that has to be taken into account next time to plan more effectively or have more set ups so that this doesn't occur. Or you can hire Keits.

What I like is that everyone thinks this is a problem unique to Marvel. You know many good matches for Tekken and AE werent shown because Marvel was on the stream at the time, right?

 

[Smooth Operator]

RayRay win Marvel tomorrow, mark my words.

 

[kirblar]

You guys could have had more matches of Marvel if the tournament standard was 2/3. Like kirblar said, 3/5 is an awful tournament standard

Don't put words in my mouth.

I stopped taking his opinion seriously here, but I'll be generous to you and read the rest.

omg twinsies <3

 

[Teknopathetic]

"do you still play quake?"

No, I am also really bad at q3a/ql.

 

[enzo_gt]

The way it's looking right now, FChamp is the favourite to win tomorrow. Chris G has to fight a lot of wolves in the losers gauntlet, notably Moons. It's hard to bet on any other player besides Flocker, but I don't think Flocker is on *that* level, nor does he have the experience against previously mentioned guy's styles.

 

[KingItachi]

That clutch.

 

[A Pretty Panda]

I don't remember much of Friday despite being awake for all of Friday.

 

[Chindogg]

Well, let us look at his rationale:

They don't give a shit about viewers, they care about players and running their tournament properly. Don't like it? Watch something else. Otherwise STFU.

 

[MrDaravon]

All good.


I still would be curious to know, in all seriousness, would people have rathered no Curly Mustache team tourney on Friday, if it meant better stream representation of top 16/32 action from all major games?

You mean like if they had cancelled it, or if it had just outright never existed? Obviously people would have blown a fuse if it had been cancelled, but I personally would have been way more happy if it had just never existed and instead we got maybe some pools but then the entire top 32 of each game. Honestly CM was already kinda a bust when they had to do single matches.

They don't give a shit about viewers, they care about players and running their tournament properly. Don't like it? Watch something else. Otherwise STFU.

Except that the whole point of this is that we're talking about watching this from a viewer perspective.

 

[Chavelo]

Don't put words in my mouth.

=kirblar]The problem is that 3/5 Tekken is just an awful tournament standard that needs to be nipped in the bud as soon as possible. How far into the bracket are they right now, anyway?

Huh?

 

[KingItachi]

I don't remember much of Friday despite being awake for all of Friday.

You getting ole Panda.

 

[jbug617]

Thanks.

People are saying 500 because that's the cap they expected, that's not the actual turnout. Kinda been lost with where people are getting 500 too.

Filthie Rich just said on stream said they got over 500 entrants.

 

[sleepykyo]

Then why are all of the top US Marvel players also top US Street Fighter players? Coincidence?

Spoiler

"Honestly", lol.

Top US Street Fighter player? Not exactly a high bar. The SF tourneys were dominated by Daigo (though FChamp did beat on SCR: SSF4 Dahlsim v. Ryu), Gamerbee, Momochi, Tokido, and then Infiltration.

And there are plenty of players that couldn't even hit that bar. eg. Yipes, Viscant, Clockwork, Combofiend, Fanatiq, Noel.

On another note, looking over the schedules it looks like Spooky was assigned the main game by popularity (MvC3) and the Tekken hotspot. The other streamers then agreed to their games and somehow Marvel took over the AE stream and it still wasn't enough for minions.

 

[Chindogg]

Filthie Rich just said on stream said they got over 500 entrants.

Sounds believable. Final Round is THE Tekken tournament.

 

[kirblar]

Huh?

I may have misinterpreted something - I thought he was trying to twist my 3/5 statement into saying "Marvel could have more games if Marvel was 2/3."

 

[enzo_gt]

All good.

I still would be curious to know, in all seriousness, would people have rathered no Curly Mustache team tourney on Friday, if it meant better stream representation of top 16/32 action from all major games?

Curleh should never be part of a major. It needs to be it's own event for these very reasons. And this Curleh has been the most ambitious yet, it clearly wasn't planned very well. So yes, I would have taken that in a heartbeat.

What I like is that everyone thinks this is a problem unique to Marvel. You know many good matches for Tekken and AE werent shown because Marvel was on the stream at the time, right?

It's not specific to Marvel, never was implied that way. Though I'm not quite sure if you can muster up as many examples of games being usually played on the unanimously agreed on inferior platform that has had players complaining forever, suddenly being played on the correct platform. 360/PS3 really makes the difference, and that's' what the players have to say.

 

[Rice-Eater]

Obviously not the case in the ATL.

It was definitely smaller than SF4 and Marvel 3, but this is probably the largest turnout for TTT2 by far to this point. That 512 cap is just a cap, none of these 3 reached it. I think Marvel might have been the only game to reach 400 if it did. SF4 was probably around 350 and TTT2 around 250. But Tekken is bigger here than anywhere else so I agree that it should get some priority. If not then it would literally be SF4 and Marvel everywhere as they're always 1-2 no matter what major you go to.

It's disappointing that they couldn't run the event according to the schedule but they did what they thought was best I guess. It's too bad but maybe something like the CM team tourney isn't fit to be run during a major and should be kept as its own stand alone event as the players on these teams also have their own personal agenda(playing in singles). I'm sure they'll learn from this and have a better run event next year.

EDIT: Damn it Enzo, get out of my head.

 

[Karsticles]

All good.


I still would be curious to know, in all seriousness, would people have rathered no Curly Mustache team tourney on Friday, if it meant better stream representation of top 16/32 action from all major games?

Yes.

Personally, I never care about team tournaments. I only watched Friday because it had the JP players, and I was excited to see how Abegen and co. had evolved since last time. Being the impatient person I am, a chance to watch was a chance to watch.

The team tournament format is simply not satisfying. I don't want to see a single match played between ChrisG and FChamp, because there's no heat. I want to see them try different strategies in a succession of matches, feel each other, etc. That's where you get deep play.

I would be all for dropping any team tournament in favor of getting to watch all of the singles for that same game (and other games, assuming the scheduling).

Top US Street Fighter player? Not exactly a high bar. The SF tourneys were dominated by Daigo (though FChamp did beat on SCR: SSF4 Dahlsim v. Ryu), Gamerbee, Momochi, Tokido, and then Infiltration.

And there are plenty of players that couldn't even hit that bar. eg. Yipes, Viscant, Clockwork, Combofiend, Fanatiq, Noel.

None of those players are even in the top 8 this weekend for Marvel.

Spoiler

Poor Yipes.

Your memory is fuzzy. In 2010, SSFIV had 2/4 of the top players as US.
2009, 3/4.
2011 had 1 in top 4.
2012 had 1 in top 4.

Apparently US players consistently placing top 4 at Evo isn't a "high bar".

 

["God's Beard!"]

I've got 5 bucks that says west coast takes Marvel tomorrow.

 

[enzo_gt]

Filthie Rich just said on stream said they got over 500 entrants.

That's really impressive, wow. In that case, it may have even gotten the most entrants of all the games.

 

[AAK]

Speak all you want about 3/5. If you want the organizers to listen to you, get involved in the community. The only reason Shin Blanka changed the format for ttt2 from 2/3 to 3/5 is because the community requested it.

You want your opinion to have an impact? Join the events and tell the people that make the decisions.

 

[DRE Fei]

Sounds believable. Final Round is THE Tekken tournament.

Don't bring logic in here.

MAHVEL ON ALL THE STREAMS ALL THE TIME!